North Korea: A Danger to The World?

[Esther]

[SIZE=1]We've all been hearing it on the news, Kim Jong-il is up to no good, [I]again[/I]. Supposably the dictator has been testing nuclear bombs somewhere in the East Asian region, in reaction, American, Japanese (and to most peoples surprise) Chinese, and Russian leaders have been coming together to discuss what to do with the so called "North Korean threat".

This isn't the first time, there have been countless other times when North Korea has said to fire "test" nuclear bombs. Once, they even sent one over the country of Japan as to make a threat.

I'm actually quite surprised no one has started thread, I would think it would make a good discussion here. So here's the topic:

[B]What should we do to get rid of the North Korean threat?[/B]

In my opinion I think that the United States should take its focus off Iraq, which I might add is not posing a threat as of now, and put its mind toward the Asian region. If we don't act fast North Korea will definately use their weapons and attack the States, we are spending too much time trying to go into a nation that is at a point of no return when we should be dealing with a nuclear crisis on the rise. North Korea is no joke, Kim is a [B]DANGEROUS[/B] dictator and hould be dealt with [B]NOW[/B].

The United States should pull half (if not all) of its troops out of Iraq and have them prepare for some sort of war with North Korea. Even though time is crucial, I think that the American military should give the active troops a rest while sending fresh ones to keep an eye on North Korea.

So what do you think, how should we deal with North Korea? Or do you think that North Korea isn't a threat at all..?[/SIZE]

[DeadSeraphim]

[COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial]Your opinion is flawed for a few reasons, not the least because of your emphasis on military in North Korea. Firstly, Iraq may have been a tragic move, but the US is entrenched there now, and to rapidly pull out too fast just to face another threat wouldn't be good for the US [i]or[/i] Iraq. The military in Iraq right now are peace keepers, not warmongers (though even they seem to get this concept wrong), and if they were pulled out too fast the country would suffer for it.

Secondly? [u][b]KIM JONG-****ING-IL[/b][/u]. Kim Jong-Il is a psycopath, and doesn't follow any (or not many, at least) of the protocols set down by the UN to preserve world peace. In fact, they stated that any attempts at just [i]sanctioning[/i] would be construed as an act of war. This isn't the kind of conflict the US or any nation should rush into, even without factoring in the countless chemical weapons Kim has and doesn't hesitate to use on top of the nukes they're building. The time for force is not now.

That said, I don't know what we should do about the whole situation, and that's exactly why I'm not a world leader. Kim Jong-Il is frustrating and scary in his insanity and hate, and his actions are screaming a lot louder than his words, but I don't think I have any authority to map out a plan to take him and his corrupt regime down.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Esther][SIZE=1']Supposably the dictator has been testing nuclear bombs somewhere in the East Asian region[/quote][/size]

[color=crimson]Somewhere in the East Asian region, lol?

Maybe.. on the Korean peninsula?

... Perhaps on the northern part of the Korean peninsula?

Somewhere.. near or around North Korea, eh?[/color]

[quote name='Esther][size=1']This isn't the first time, there have been countless other times when North Korea has said to fire "test" nuclear bombs. Once, they even sent one over the country of Japan as to make a threat.[/quote][/size]

[color=crimson]Weren't those just missiles?[/color]

[quote name='Esther][size=1']I would think it would make a good discussion here.[/quote][/size]

[color=crimson]You'd be surprised.[/color]

[quote name='Esther][size=1'] If we don't act fast North Korea will definately use their weapons and attack the States, we are spending too much time trying to go into a nation that is at a point of no return when we should be dealing with a nuclear crisis on the rise.[/quote][/size]

[color=crimson]Do you know how many different ways the United States could destroy North Korea conventionally? Without even tapping into it's OWN stockpile of nukes? Nukes that are significantly more advanced, precise and many times more powerful than the dud they tested.

Just look at how well Israel destroyed Lebanon with surgical precision or how well the shock and awe part of the Iraqi war went (before we got bogged down in nation building).

Any attack by North Korea would just be stupid. It wouldn't prove a point or give them any real satisfaction or help their position.[/color]

[quote name='Esther][size=1']The United States should pull half (if not all) of its troops out of Iraq and have them prepare for some sort of war with North Korea.[/quote][/size]

[color=crimson]There should already be about 60k servicemen in Japan and South Korea, lol.[/color]

[quote name='Esther][size=1']So what do you think, how should we deal with North Korea?[/SIZE][/quote]

[color=crimson]Carefully.[/color]

[Delta]

[COLOR=#656446]Say I'm an individual/organization who's aiming at dominance over a region, or at the very least build up my rep through means with questionable ethics. One of the last things I would do is let anyone in to what I'm up to during the early stages of my plan. Kim Jong Il did just that.

So to answer the thread's title: No. Not a danger to the world. Dear Leader's being an attention whore... again... for the nth time this year.

[size=1]The suggested COA in the opening post is something an organization would do out of paranoia. For a lovely example, please look at how Bush and his generals got the US, NATO and UN armies neck-deep in nine kinds of shite.[/size][/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Delta][COLOR=#656446']So to answer the thread's title: No. Not a danger to the world. Dear Leader's being an attention whore... again... for the nth time this year.[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]Perhaps, but in the process he's completely destabilizing the region with his stupidity. We can't act like it's another one of his bluffs, because what if it werent?

Basically, I think the world's doing basically all it can at this point. Multilateral talks and sanctions seem to be the best we can do. Although if China were to stop selling N. Korea goods and open their border to people wanting to immigrate, I'd say N. Korea would collapse.[/size]

[Dodeca]

[SIZE=1]Heh.

What annoys me a little about your opening post is that you went for that oh-so-stereotypical 'America must save the world!' stance. It's all 'United States' this, 'United States' that. There's no point in having the UN if you do everything yourselves, y'know.

It also amused me a little when you stated that the weapons would definitely be used against the States, completely ignoring the more immediate risk to nearby nations such as Japan, which you'd already mentioned in regards to a missile threat. [COLOR=DimGray][And China 'n' Russia, the others who're 'coming together' according to your post, but they don't really apply to my next point.][/COLOR] You have an obscenely powerful and influential country halfway across the world, or a country that you don't really like all that much, conveniently placed just a little bit across the ocean. Which one would you choose?

Anyways, I pretty much agree with other people's 'do it carefully' responses, and I firmly believe that if and when push comes to shove, the United States should [i]not[/i] be the ones making the crucial decisions - or at least not the only ones.[/SIZE]

[Red]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']Perhaps, but in the process he's completely destabilizing the region with his stupidity. We can't act like it's another one of his bluffs, because what if it werent?[/size][/quote]

I wouldn't call getting the entire world to play right into your hands stupid, but each to their own.

The man wants to stay in power, I don't think there's much else to it. Having the American army right on your doorstep allows you to convey the same fear western governments do of terrorism: that there's a big bad monster just waiting around the corner to [i]get you[/i] unless certain steps are followed.

[quote][size=1]Basically, I think the world's doing basically all it can at this point. Multilateral talks and sanctions seem to be the best we can do. Although if China were to stop selling N. Korea goods and open their border to people wanting to immigrate, I'd say N. Korea would collapse.[/size][/QUOTE]

Sanctions seem like the worst possible thing anyone could do, as at the end of the day he's still in power. Stopping sales of goods in China would be worse. Whatever is taken away will be blamed on the foreigners imposing the restrictions, not Kim, as he will appear to be the one trying to help.

The detonation of the 'nuke' was estimated at one kiloton, and even if N. Korea had a gajillion Tsar Bombas, they'd have no way to attack with them. It seems like Kim wants the Americans to stick around, maybe bolster numbers & introduce some influence from other countries, so he can bolster his position at home. The wonderful tag team of Blair & Bush have found the latest scary man who's plotting to kill us all, so they still get something out of it.

As I said up there, the US/UK are prime examples of how fear is used to justify anything - the huge wiretapping project that went on in America & EU banks giving financial information to US intelligence agencies comes to mind. All justified by the war on terror. Just like Kim can sit there and say the big bad just-about-to-invade foreigners are the reason for everything go down the drain domestically.

[Drix D'Zanth]

Aren't these situations what high powered rifles are for? I'm wondering why we don't poison his tea or something. As much of a pacifist I am, this man is killing his people as we speak; by standing idle, we share the blame.

As much as it would be nice to think Kim Jong Il isn't going to act on his word, it's really pulling the covers over our head. The only reason he hasn't made his move is because China has a tight leash on his megalomaniac ***. China is rapidly becoming the world's leading superpower. If a conflict begins in Korea, China needs to be assured that it can survive and win against the United States. It's only a matter of time, really.

It's going to suck being drafted when that happens.

How many years do you think we've got until China looses her grip?

[visualkei]

I think that the USA is working pretty hard to get the other nations together to discuss the matter. We really need to be careful about this. Yes, there is a big threat, but you're suggesting that we ready for another war, instead of finding other alternatives.

As far as the whole pulling out of Iraq idea, I don't think that's the best way of going about anything-- by quitting something else. We can't run into Korea like we did to Iraq. :animeangr We are in a tough war and it's just the beginning. We created a war over there, we can't just step out and leave a mess for someone else to clean up. Not only that, but I think Iraq is the immediate priority right now.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Red']I wouldn't call getting the entire world to play right into your hands stupid, but each to their own.[/quote]
[size=1]It's stupid from a sane person's point of view to destabilize a region because of your own pissing contest.

[QUOTE]Sanctions seem like the worst possible thing anyone could do, as at the end of the day he's still in power. Stopping sales of goods in China would be worse. Whatever is taken away will be blamed on the foreigners imposing the restrictions, not Kim, as he will appear to be the one trying to help.[/QUOTE]
So then what course of action do you propose? Honestly, he's been a child long enough, and it's time he paid for his idiocy. What's he going to do if China stops selling them food? Cry about it? He's still not insane enough to bomb S. Korea or any other country (IMHO), because he knows it would bring about the immediate end of his country.

Basically, the guy needs a political pimp slap.

[QUOTE]The detonation of the 'nuke' was estimated at one kiloton, and even if N. Korea had a gajillion Tsar Bombas, they'd have no way to attack with them. It seems like Kim wants the Americans to stick around, maybe bolster numbers & introduce some influence from other countries, so he can bolster his position at home. The wonderful tag team of Blair & Bush have found the latest scary man who's plotting to kill us all, so they still get something out of it.[/QUOTE]
Well, didn't they have that mid-range missile test (failed, true, but regardless) that could carry a nuclear bomb?

And who cares what the N. Korean public think? He could fabricate any news he'd like and they wouldn't know the difference, so outside actions have reduced effect.

[QUOTE]As I said up there, the US/UK are prime examples of how fear is used to justify anything - the huge wiretapping project that went on in America & EU banks giving financial information to US intelligence agencies comes to mind. All justified by the war on terror. Just like Kim can sit there and say the big bad just-about-to-invade foreigners are the reason for everything go down the drain domestically.[/QUOTE]
And what will they do at that point? I think Kim would have a hard time with himself going to war. Let's be honest here... it'd bring about the collapse of his country, and I don't think he's willing to do that.

China & Co. just need to put him in place.

Edit: Where's Europe during this? They seriously need to get involved in putting pressure on N. Korea if they're not already.[/size]

[eleanor]

[color=dimgray] Pulling out of Iraq is probably out of the questions. We started the war, we stay for reconstruction.

The only safe course of action is further diplomatic dialogue. UN sanctions, although meritable, can only do so much. UN is a system that is bogged down and limited. Ideas such as mutual disarming and transparency of nations' chemical weapons would be ideal, but Kim Jong-Il is too power hungry to agree to any regulations set by MUN or the OPCW/CWC.

I have no suggested course of action, partly because I'm not fully knowledgable of what's going on, but the answer for right now would lie in more aggresive meetings with other countries.[/color]

[chaos Alvis]

In my opinion, we should just let the U.N settle this themselves. Why go into another nuke war? I mean comming from deathknight's quote saying that we have more than enought missles than any other country has. Even if we do use them, it'll be a pointless war. So i say lets just let the U.N settle this. Why take more ppl from the war, and put them in korea?even if we do take half from iraq, bush will never stop sending troops to korea or iraq.

And reading esther's 2nd to last paragraph stating to send fresh troops to korea. What good would that do? It might scare korea a little bit but what other good things might happen? its not like its going to stop korea testing nuke missles.

[AnimeHeroX]

Yes not so much as they could start a nuclear war with anyone but they could sell their weapons to terrorist and other that would do harm to innocent people so in a way they are a threat to the world. plus any one that looks like kim jin whatever can't have all upstairs. :D

[DarkFactor]

Kim Jong Ill is one crazy mother.... but so what? there are thousands of people who think he's a god. You can't just go around overthrowing popular majority leaders because they have decent military capacity... if that were true shouldn't the American government be overthrown? and then you say to me (Dark, you must be stupid, you must have missed the coldwar. Mixed reports are a classic example of communist regimes and the way they opress their citzens.) Maybe its the reports that all communist dictators are cruel thats the incorrect part.

So, some half cracked despot makes nuke threats... First off, if your town gets hit by a nuclear warhead they just did you a favor. You'll be evaporated.... probably less painful then a fatal heart attack... I wouldnt know for sure because I have had neither, obviously.

Nothing will happen with N. Korea so long as China is not rolling around in the same bed. And even if they do butt buddy against us, we hopefully learned the lesson of the Korean war and will not try to win by just bolstering up troop numbers and using ground force. Because, if you know anything about the last korean war you know that troop numbers and ground force is a futile way to fight them.

I say if Stalin, cough, I mean Lennin, I mean, ahem, Mao Xe, I mean the Khmer Rou, no wait thats not it uhhm oh yeah this Kim jong guy wants to be another goofy militant leader marching around in dress green uniform shouting about unity and nuking America, then who are we to tell his lame five foot nothing foreign self that he can't play dress up for a while.

[Domon]

[SIZE=1]In all honesty I think that the UN is not doing enough. They seem to only be able to yap. No action has been taken as of yet. The dictator of N. Korea is crying that any sanctions will be considered an act of war. I say call the jerk's bluff. Sanctions seem to be the only way to shut this guy up and get it across his thick head. The world is not going to stand idly by while he (Kim Jong) plays wannabe Hitler and tries to build nukes. So yeah.. Enforce the sanctions and call it a day.[/SIZE]

[Red]

[quote]So then what course of action do you propose? Honestly, he's been a child long enough, and it's time he paid for his idiocy. What's he going to do if China stops selling them food? Cry about it?[/quote]

No, he's going to let his people go without food and continue to blame outside sources for the problem, with a view to stay in power.

I didn't propose a course of action. Just said that maybe restricting millions from the basics isn't necessarily going to effect his regime when the 'facts' in N. Korea point the blame at others.

[quote]He's still not insane enough to bomb S. Korea or any other country (IMHO), because he knows it would bring about the immediate end of his country.[/quote]

Exactly.

[quote]Well, didn't they have that mid-range missile test (failed, true, but regardless) that could carry a nuclear bomb?[/quote]

Not sure if it could carry a nuclear bomb, but they had a failed missile test. That doesn't mean they're anywhere near a viable delivery method. And even if they did, what bombs are they going to launch? It's not even been proven they have any, and a kiloton is hardly world ending.

[quote]And who cares what the N. Korean public think? He could fabricate any news he'd like and they wouldn't know the difference, so outside actions have reduced effect.[/quote]

Does he not care? There I was thinking his government [i]does[/i] fabricate or twist outside actions/news/statements to benefit him, such as the always imminently invading Americans sitting on the border.

[quote]And what will they do at that point? I think Kim would have a hard time with himself going to war. Let's be honest here... it'd bring about the collapse of his country, and I don't think he's willing to do that.

China & Co. just need to put him in place.

Edit: Where's Europe during this? They seriously need to get involved in putting pressure on N. Korea if they're not already.[/QUOTE]

What? The paragraph I wrote had nothing to do with him going to war - it was about how Kim is hardly the first person to use fearmongering methods at home. Just like it worked for the US/UK governments, it could work entirely in his favour. To me it seems his ideals are at home and there alone.

[Kitchen Sink]

[quote name='DarkFactor']Kim Jong Ill is one crazy mother.... but so what? there are thousands of people who think he's a god. You can't just go around overthrowing popular majority leaders because they have decent military capacity... if that were true shouldn't the American government be overthrown? and then you say to me (Dark, you must be stupid, you must have missed the coldwar. Mixed reports are a classic example of communist regimes and the way they opress their citzens.) Maybe its the reports that all communist dictators are cruel thats the incorrect part.[/quote]
Popular majority leader? I'd love to see Kim Jon "Dear Leader" Il hold a truly free and democratic election to at least try to prove that he is a popular leader. My prediction is he would be turfed out on his ***.
I mean, for goodness sake, this is a country where it's dead president is still "president." Give me a break!


[quote]
So, some half cracked despot makes nuke threats... First off, if your town gets hit by a nuclear warhead they just did you a favor. You'll be evaporated.... probably less painful then a fatal heart attack... I wouldnt know for sure because I have had neither, obviously.[/quote]Won't be doing me a favour. I want to live. ;)


[quote]
Nothing will happen with N. Korea so long as China is not rolling around in the same bed. And even if they do butt buddy against us, we hopefully learned the lesson of the Korean war and will not try to win by just bolstering up troop numbers and using ground force. Because, if you know anything about the last korean war you know that troop numbers and ground force is a futile way to fight them.
[/QUOTE]Nothing will happen because the UN will do nothing that will hurt the regime in any way, shape or form. It's nothing more than an irrelevant bleating sheep that get's cross with regimes, but does little more than impose sanctions and write letters to the regime teling them how angry they are.

Oh yeah. N. Korea should be quaking in it's boots right about now...

[img]http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2827/storyparadead4.jpg[/img]


:rolleyes:

[Sandy]

Honestly, I'm many times more worried about the amount of nuclear weapons that USA has in stock than whatever North Korea has.

[B]Popquiz:[/B] What country is the [I]only one[/I] in the history of Earth to ever use a nuclear weapon against another nation?

Pot calling the kettle black here...

[SunfallE]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][QUOTE=Sandy]Honestly, I'm many times more worried about the amount of nuclear weapons that USA has in stock than whatever North Korea has.

[B]Popquiz:[/B] What country is the [I]only one[/I] in the history of Earth to ever use a nuclear weapon against another nation?

Pot calling the kettle black here...[/QUOTE]You and me both Sandy, especially considering who we have in charge right now in our government. :animesigh

It's almost silly to worry over a country that if they really did go nuts and start attacking others.. Well they would be clobbered by all the other countries out there that are far more powerful when it comes to weapons and such.

I do think talking with them is a good idea, but on some level I think it's being blown out of proportion, as I don't really see them as a serious problem or threat at this time.
[/COLOR]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Sandy][B]Popquiz:[/B] What country is the [I]only one[/I'] in the history of Earth to ever use a nuclear weapon against another nation?[/quote]

[color=crimson]The decision to nuke Japan was an alternative decided to be the lesser of two evils between it and the proposed Operation Downfall which had an [b]optimistic[/b] estimate of half a million marine deaths and several million civilian deaths.

I don't expect you to like America. America has a large list of other problems that you should wail about instead of a strategic decision made to lessen casualties during a time of total war.[/color]

[quote name='SunfallE][COLOR=RoyalBlue']It's almost silly to worry over a country that if they really did go nuts and start attacking others.. Well they would be clobbered by all the other countries out there that are far more powerful when it comes to weapons and such.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=crimson]All of that would still take it's toll in death and injury.

Before this test when they were deadlocked in their little childish squabble about who wants to talk to who and how there was a better chance that we could avoid that.

With this test that has faded a bit.[/color]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DeepSkyBlue][QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]All of that would still take it's toll in death and injury.

Before this test when they were deadlocked in their little childish squabble about who wants to talk to who and how there was a better chance that we could avoid that.

With this test that has faded a bit.[/color][/QUOTE]True, but I kind of agree with SunfallE, at least in the sense that people are making it out to be more of a threat than it really is.

On some level, even with the talks I get the impression that they are going to do what ever they want anyway. Not that they should give up on the talks, but I don't think they intended to even try to reach an agreement.

I've gotten the impression all along that they had no intention of giving up nuclear testing. [/COLOR]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='indifference][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue']I've gotten the impression all along that they had no intention of giving up nuclear testing. [/COLOR][/quote]

[color=crimson]Maybe.

At the same time it's not too bad to hope you'll be proven wrong.

Either way I'm waiting to see how it plays out.

Might end well, might not.[/color]

[Kitchen Sink]

[QUOTE=Sandy]Honestly, I'm many times more worried about the amount of nuclear weapons that USA has in stock than whatever North Korea has.
[/QUOTE] Yeah, but the U.S isn't about to go willy-nilly and nuke everyone it disagrees with, there's a precedent there.

Just think, how many times they could have used the bomb to clear things up a little.... Vietnam? The Korean war?

What about Iraq? Surely they could have sent the insurgence the mosyt radical of messages my nuking Baghdad, right? They wont do it. Bush has neever looked like using nukes, not even when despotic regimes like North Korea and Iran seek out th ebomb themselves.

Kim Jong Il is a megalomaniac and a despot. He is that kind of crazy leader who is so over-inflated with the fake praise of his peoples he just might do it. Better yet, he tries a nuke test into the sea just out of Japan by attaching it to one of his Taepodong missiles, but accidentally hits Japan. The guy could be a total bluff, yet still be absolutely dangerous with these bombs.

Pyongyang or Washington with nukes? I'll stick with Washington.

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Lost Lightbulb']Yeah, but the U.S isn't about to go willy-nilly and nuke everyone it disagrees with, there's a precedent there.[/quote]

[color=crimson]Errr, they don't need to. Their conventional arsenal is what they rely on for going apeshit. America has been conventionally bombing their enemies into hell since World War 2.

Korea? They bombed the crap out of every North Korean community they came across. They used more napalm in Korea than they did in Vietnam, lol.

Vietnam? Massive strategic and tactical bombing across North Vietnam along with incendiary (napalm) strikes.

Iraq? Shock and awe campaign blew up all the infrastructure and military positions they needed.

I understand what you are saying but, at the same time, we destroy things well enough without bringing out the nukes.[/color]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Red]No, he's going to let his people go without food and continue to blame outside sources for the problem, with a view to stay in power.

I didn't propose a course of action. Just said that maybe restricting millions from the basics isn't necessarily going to effect his regime when the 'facts' in N. Korea point the blame at others.[/QUOTE]
[size=1]Perhaps you're right. On the other hand, N. Korea would collapse without provisions, no matter who Kim blames.

[QUOTE]Not sure if it could carry a nuclear bomb, but they had a failed missile test. That doesn't mean they're anywhere near a viable delivery method. And even if they did, what bombs are they going to launch? It's not even been proven they have any, and a kiloton is hardly world ending.[/QUOTE]
You can't shut your ears to the possibility of a nuclear attack, no matter how unlikely.

[QUOTE]Does he not care? There I was thinking his government [i]does[/i] fabricate or twist outside actions/news/statements to benefit him, such as the always imminently invading Americans sitting on the border.[/QUOTE]
He cares, which is why he fabricates that information. If he wants to bolster his popularity, he can have the press write whatever he asks them to, with or without outside action. The public is being forcefed whatever information Kim wants them to consume.[/size]