A Rather Religious Debate

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[B]1. What religion are you CURRENTLY following? If you don't have one, then why?[/B]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy] I'm kind of following Catholicism again, but still infusing it with what I learned when I was practicing Wicca and what I learned from reading about Islam. So I guess I'm following Ecclectic beliefs[/color][/font]

[B]2. Why do you follow that religion? Parents, personal reasons, etc?[/B]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]Mostly because of my parents. My mom felt that she lost a connection with me when I was practicing Wicca because she never took the time to understand it. [/color][/font]

[B]3. Do you ever feel that people often critisize you because of these beliefs?[/B]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]When I was Wiccan I felt that a lot of the time people (EG my younger brother, co-workers who saw the pentacle I was wearing, my ex mother-in-law who felt I shouldn't practice because I wasn't the right kind of person for the religion) gave me a hard time. But now it's not too bad.[/color][/font]

[B]4. This one may spark a little bit of arguing: Do you believe that your religion is the [I]one true religion?[/I] If so provide evidence.[/B]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]I don't believe that any religion is the one true religion. If one religion was the ONLY ONE, why would there be so many denominations and other religions?[/color][/font]

*

[Vicky]

[SIZE=1]Oooh, religion.

[B]1. What religion are you CURRENTLY following? If you don't have one, then why?[/B]

Don't have one, but I wouldn't call myself an athiest, either. I don't actually know where I stand, to be honest the thought of having a higher power in my life sickens me, but the thought of God being real and I've got no chance in heaven scares me to death. I've got a few of my own beliefs, but I doubt I'll actually post them here.

[B]2. Why do you follow that religion? Parents, personal reasons, etc?[/B]

Well at first I was Catholic because of my parents and my school. I didn't get a choice in the matter. When I got older my first thought was that it was all a load of crap. Everyone told me my talents were given to me by God, all this and that and I didn't like it. The silly people I live with decided that God would take credit for everything I did. So, I stopped believing. But since I grew up a Catholic it's really hard to totally ignore the fact that God might exist, my family and school rooted me pretty firmly and it's hard to get away.

[B]3. Do you ever feel that people often critisize you because of these beliefs?[/B]

No, because I'll tear people a part if they start picking on my belief.



[B]4. This one may spark a little bit of arguing: Do you believe that your religion is the one true religion? If so provide evidence.[/B]

I love this question. Yes, but I also believe that so is Christianity... and Wicca... and whatever. It's my personal belief that whatever you believe in, no matter how whacked up and stupid, if you believe it with your heart and soul then it's [I]real to you[/I], and that's good enough. The Universe is so big that it [I]has[/I] to have room for everyone's opinions, right?[/SIZE]

[DaSilva]

1. What religion are you CURRENTLY following? If you don't have one, then why?

I don't know what you could call me at the moment.I guess it classifies mainly under an Atheist. I have my own system of morals and beliefs that I like to live by. And as far as a god goes, I don't believe in one. I believe in what I know is real. If some omniscient, omnipresent being makes and actual physical appearance someday, sure I'll believe in it. I may not follow the religion that follows that particular deity afterward, because I still have my own system.

2. Why do you follow that religion? Parents, personal reasons, etc?

Atheism to me is like a default religion. I am an American, and becuase of that, I was pretty much raised as a christian. That's what American society today does. Plus I have my christian parents to deal with. I just don't see why people would live there lives by some archaic book that a few guys wrote. For all we know, the bible was just written by some random schizo guy who was hearing voices that he understood as "God." So I just got fed up with Christianity, and said screw it. And so I got here.

3. Do you ever feel that people often critisize you because of these beliefs?

Yes, because the hick town I live in is about 95 percent christian. Need I really say more?

4. This one may spark a little bit of arguing: Do you believe that your religion is the one true religion? If so provide evidence.

I believe that people should create their own morals and ethics, not follow someone elses.

[Raiyuu]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS]I'm an atheist. I don't see that ever changing, though people like to find new and funky words for it so it doesn't seem so offensive to the religious massive.

I have a bit of a problem with people that consider 'agnostic' to be a response to the question 'what religion do you follow?'. I used to define myself as agnostic, feeling like it wasn't quite as strong an opposite to religion as atheism is, but having had a good hard think about it I don't feel comfortable with that label any more.

Okay, so the definition of agnostic is: "One who believes that it is impossible to [i]prove[/i] whether there is a God." So, when people say to me "I'm agnostic," the urge is to reply "okay, but do you [i]believe[/i] in a higher power or not?" Because you can believe that the existence of God can't be proved or disproved, but you [i]must[/i] have a personal opinion on it one way or another.

Discussion point: do you think it's possible to be (for example) Christian, and [i]also[/i] agnostic? Because I don't see any contradiction between believing God exists and believing that fact can't be proven. Faith doesn't require proof.

I do believe the existence or otherwise of God, Allah, Shiva/Vishnu, etc. is ultimately unprovable. But I also know I don't personally believe in them. So I'm an atheist, and I think so is anyone that doesn't worship or follow a divine being.[/font]

[Veritas]

[quote name='Esther][size=1']I'm sort of confused, if you don't believe there is a one true religion then do you not believe in a Heaven or Hell? Or any sort of life beyond death? If you believe that God has many faces, then are we all going to the same place when we die?[/size][/quote][size=1][color=dimgray]It's been awhile but I'll reply to you anyways. [/color][/size]
[size=1][color=dimgray][/color][/size]
[size=1][color=dimgray]I believe in heaven and hell, but whether it is fire and brimstone or your outer darkness I don't know, I haven't died yet. I do believe god will judge us, but not by our physical appearance, whether we've drank, went to church every sunday or had pre-marital sex. I think that God will judge by the caliber of your soul, and how you treated others. And if I'm wrong about anything, I'll stand and account for every sin I've commited.[/color][/size]
[size=1][color=dimgray][/color][/size]
[size=1][color=dimgray]In my opinion God doesn't reside in Church buildings, he resides in our own souls, it is the peoples faith that make the buildings special, I have had my scariest experience while I was at a church after hours.[/color][/size]
[size=1][color=dimgray][/color][/size]
[size=1][color=dimgray]Though I think people should do what is right for them, religions can do good things for many people, but I don't think it's possible to have one true religion. To judge by one standard and one alone, would be comprimising the freedom God gave us in the beginning, especially when there are so many different situations in life you could be in.[/color][/size]
[size=1][color=dimgray][/color][/size]
[size=1][color=dimgray]I hope that makes more sense for you.[/color][/size]

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1][B]1. What religion are you CURRENTLY following? If you don't have one, then why?[/B]

Roman Catholic. Surely there's no need to go further than that ?

[B]2. Why do you follow that religion? Parents, personal reasons, etc?[/B]

My parents are Catholic, but as of about 14 I made the choice to remain Catholic of my own accord.

[B]3. Do you ever feel that people often criticize you because of these beliefs?[/B]

Have you ever walked into an abortion or gay rights thread and mentioned the term Catholic in relation to your opinion ? The name Dan Brown also comes to mind, as well as every redneck who thinks he espouses any form of truth.

[B]4. This one may spark a little bit of arguing: Do you believe that your religion is the [I]one true religion?[/I] If so provide evidence.[/B]

Yes I do. However I cannot provide evidence because my belief is based on faith, ergo someone who does not share my faith cannot be convinced of it's validity. In fact this question cannot be answered through anything other than an expression of faith, and thus there cannot be one definitive answer as there will be one for each person.

[[b]Edit[/b]] OK having read the thread more fully, and realised I'm considered by some to be a religious tyrant from a doctrinal point of view, I have to say that I personally believe a person's choice of faith must be their own, and that that choice must be a reflection of their own genuine beliefs. There's no point in my mind of just going through the motions if you don't believe in the task.[/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Raiyuu][FONT=Trebuchet MS]Okay, so the definition of agnostic is: "One who believes that it is impossible to [i]prove[/i] whether there is a God." So, when people say to me "I'm agnostic," the urge is to reply "okay, but do you [i]believe[/i] in a higher power or not?" Because you can believe that the existence of God can't be proved or disproved, but you [i]must[/i'] have a personal opinion on it one way or another.[/FONT][/quote]
[size=1]Agnosticism is for those not quite ready to take the Atheistic plunge, in my experience anyway. To answer your question, I honestly have no idea whether or not a higher power exists. Would I like one to exist? Certainly -- what's not to love about a big guy in the sky looking out for you when life gets rough? But just because the notion is attractive and comforting doesn't mean it's true, so I'm on the fence.

[QUOTE][FONT=Trebuchet MS]Discussion point: do you think it's possible to be (for example) Christian, and [i]also[/i] agnostic? Because I don't see any contradiction between believing God exists and believing that fact can't be proven. Faith doesn't require proof.[/FONT][/QUOTE]
Agnosticism means you don't know if God exists or not and there's no way to prove one way or another. So technically you could be a Christian, you just wouldn't be a very devout one. "Praise be to God... if he's actually there..." as opposed to putting your life in His hands with the confidence He will take care of you.[/size]

[Albert Flasher]

[COLOR=Sienna]Why do people assume that, if there [i]is[/i] a God/gods, that it's a benevolent, watchful creature? I think the Pagan/Norse/etc religions had a more realistic view of religion; the gods (under the assumption that they exist) have their own damn problems and don't give a rats *** about you, they're not going to hold your hand through life and make all your problems go away the way a lot of religions claim.

I mean, why would an omnipotent, infallable diety of unfathomable power give a crap about Joe Blow and his problems? That is, to me, the proof that most of the mainstream religions were created by people with people's ideals in mind, not influenced by some god.[/COLOR]

[Esther]

[quote name='Aaryanna']But how do you know if guiding the youth into a LDS member lifestyle is what?s truly best for them? You?ve made the general assumption that if a youth doesn?t want that lifestyle then they are goofing around too much.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]No, I think you mis-read my statement. What I'm trying to say is that most of the teen population today usually doesn't want to be involved with religious events or go to church in general and just want to go out and hang around, and in some cases just make a mockery. So a lot of the older generation just never takes the time to actually LISTEN to what a teenager has to say, therefore their questions aren't taken seriously.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Aaryanna']Oh and by the way, other than my mom I don?t consider these people or the leaders of the church my ?overseer? so to speak. [/quote]

[SIZE=1]I apologize.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Aaryanna']My question was if my father was paying tithing on the money he makes, then why was my mom also paying tithing on the same money? You see my parents are divorced and she gets child support for me.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]Well is that her sole income? Or does she have a side job of some sort?[/SIZE]
[quote name='Aaryanna']I asked that if we were really an equal opportunity religion, then why can?t women have the priesthood or hold positions like the guys do in church? I?m sure you can imagine the uproar that created. They kept arguing that it was equal and I kept telling them that equal means just that! Equal! It wouldn?t have bothered me so much if they could just admit that it?s pretty much a male dominated religion. But instead I was given a lecture about being disrespectful.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]Well, America is supposably the best country in the world where everyone is equal and you can get a job no matter what. But still, have you ever seen a woman/colored president? Of course not, but that doesn't make you want to stop being American does it?[/SIZE]

[quote name='Aaryanna']I have friends who do that, (one because her husband has back problems) and even though they do a good job of taking care of their kids, people in the ward are rude to them as if their father is a bad person.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]This is probably because of the "rude peoples" upbringing as a child. Their father was probably out working while their mother was at home tending to them and their siblings, and they were taught to do the same. So obviously the fact that the man was at home probably alienated them, and in some odd way got them upset. [/SIZE]

[quote name='Aaryanna']Anyway, I wanted to know how Adam and Eve were supposedly responsible for the entire human race. After all if there were only two humans to start with, I would have imagined that there would have been all sorts of genetic inbreeding and other issues.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]This is why science and religious theory can never come together. If you ever take any sort of scientific theory and put it along with religion, especially Christianity and the story of Adam and Eve well.. it gets really ugly and it comes out making no sense. So if you don't believe in the story of Adam and Eve, then so be it.

Also, do you have any sort of messenger? I would like to talk to you, I guess "live" whatever you want to call it. ^_^[/SIZE]

[DeadSeraphim]

[COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial][quote name='Esther][SIZE=1']Well, America is supposably the best country in the world where everyone is equal and you can get a job no matter what. But still, have you ever seen a woman/colored president? Of course not, but that doesn't make you want to stop being American does it?[/SIZE][/quote]
Difference being, ethnic people and women actually have a chance, and a right, as written into the Constitution. Mormonism just flat out says no. It's not a strong comparison to make.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[The13thMan]

[QUOTE=HedonismBot][COLOR=Sienna]Why do people assume that, if there [i]is[/i] a God/gods, that it's a benevolent, watchful creature? I think the Pagan/Norse/etc religions had a more realistic view of religion; the gods (under the assumption that they exist) have their own damn problems and don't give a rats *** about you, they're not going to hold your hand through life and make all your problems go away the way a lot of religions claim.

I mean, why would an omnipotent, infallable diety of unfathomable power give a crap about Joe Blow and his problems? That is, to me, the proof that most of the mainstream religions were created by people with people's ideals in mind, not influenced by some god.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Ok, i'd first like to say that i'm agnostic and that i'm only arguing for the sake of arguing. ::shrug:: But i did used to believe in my previous religion, that being the unification church.

Why would God care about us? Uhm, it's pretty much the same reason a parent would care about their child. Now, i mean a real parent, not some half assed drunk redneck father that beats their kids, i mean a real father/mother. Or, let's even take it to a smaller level. Legos! Have you ever built something out of legos? Don't you just hate it when somebody else walks into the room and tries to change it or even destroy it? Yeah, it's like that.

My previous view of God wasn't the same as most traditional Christians, although i still would've been considered one...at least by my previous religion. I believed that God was actually a very sad God. I believed that the world that we live in today was a mistake brought on by the fall of man and Eve's innapropriate sexual relationship with Lucifer which created the first lie and spiraled into all that is evil and corrupt. If god does exist then i truly believe that he did not mean for all of his children to suffer throughout life. Look at all that is evil and immoral in this world and you will see that this world is mostly covered in hell. We can only find heaven in small places or in the people that we love.

Also, i didn't believe god was all powerful. If he were all powerful then we would have no freedom. By giving us freedom he gave up some of his power to us. Also by giving us free will he also indirectly created all that is evil and wrong. Think about it, how can he give us free will when there are no choices to be made? How can we have free will if we cannot choose from good and bad? If there were only goodness and god then we would not be able to choose, only follow. If there's one choice then there is no choice. Although...to say that he didn't see all of this coming is another thing. He probably did know that there would be suffering, and i also believe that he saw that the suffering will eventually end and we will have true peace. There has to be suffering before there can be peace, i've said it before.
[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE]Why would God care about us? Uhm, it's pretty much the same reason a parent would care about their child. Now, i mean a real parent, not some half assed drunk redneck father that beats their kids, i mean a real father/mother.
[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Sienna]
So God's just a parent who likes to play favourites? Because it hardly seems fair that he'll give his gifts to some and not to others; reveal himself to some and leave others in the dark. You know what I'm getting at; that doesn't make a lot of sense. Assuming, of course, that God is a decent parent and not some asshole deadbeat, like you said.[/COLOR]

[James]

[b]1. What religion are you CURRENTLY following? If you don't have one, then why?[/b]

[font=arial]I'm non-religious, so I don't have a religion at all. Nor am I athiest, nor am I agnostic.[/font]
[b]
2. Why do you follow that religion? Parents, personal reasons, etc?[/b]

[font=arial]I don't follow a religion because I don't think that [i]any[/i] religion is a factual representation of Earth's creation. I do not believe that mankind has that answer yet and I believe that all religions are the invention of man, rather than the invention of God.

I also feel that our concepts of God are decidedly man-made. I think there are valid reasons why we create our gods and our religions, but for me personally...there's too much doubt in my mind for me to comfortably follow a religion. I would be intellectually dishonest if I did so.

Having said that, there are certainly religious people in my family and my parents never pushed me one way or the other. They always had the attitude that I am intelligent enough to make up my own mind.[/font]
[b]
3. Do you ever feel that people often critisize you because of these beliefs?[/b]

[font=arial]People don't generally criticise me because of my beliefs (primarily, I guess, because I don't have any spiritual beliefs to criticise). However, people [i]do[/i] occasionally criticise my opinion on the grounds of religion (gay marriage, for example). Religion is often a motivation for such disagreements and there is often a significant amount of zeal behind those said disagreements.

So in that sense, yes, beliefs/religion play a role in people's criticisms...but I have rarely been criticised specifically for my "beliefs".[/font]
[b]
4. This one may spark a little bit of arguing: Do you believe that your religion is the one true religion? If so provide evidence.[/b]

[font=arial]My philosophy is very simple. The answer is: I don't know. I don't know whether or not there is a God, I don't know how the Universe came to be and I probably never will know in my lifetime.

Having said that, my response is not to insert something that I [i]know[/i] is essentially a man-made answer - it's like fitting a square peg into a round hole. I would rather have no answer than the wrong answer.

So perhaps I will find out when I die, or perhaps I will never find out. Either way, I will at least know in myself that I am always attempting to do what I feel is right and I am being honest with myself.[/font]

[pooperson]

[QUOTE=Esther][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]

[B]1. What religion are you CURRENTLY following? If you don't have one, then why?[/B][/QUOTE]

I am a Lutheran, of the Missouri Synod. Basically, I believe in the BIBLE and in what Martin Luther had to say about it.
[QUOTE]
[B]2. Why do you follow that religion? Parents, personal reasons, etc?[/B][/QUOTE]

At first, I HAD to go to church... but I never really didn't like it. Now I go because I choose to. It's a good experience for me, and it strengthens my faith. And by the way, I believe it because I feel like it's right, and it makes sense.
[QUOTE]
[B]3. Do you ever feel that people often critisize you because of these beliefs?[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh, all the time. My best friend is Buddhist, and I never hear the end of it about how Christians are horrible people. I am in constant pressure to swear, hate people, be pessimistic [especially about religion], etc.
[QUOTE]
[B]4. This one may spark a little bit of arguing: Do you believe that your religion is the [I]one true religion?[/I] If so provide evidence.[/B]
[/QUOTE]

Not limited to Lutheranism, but I believe that the only way to get to Heaven is through Jesus. There is no title for that. And my evidence is the Bible.

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=DarkOrchid][quote name='Esther][SIZE=1]No, I think you mis-read my statement. What I'm trying to say is that most of the teen population today usually doesn't want to be involved with religious events or go to church in general and just want to go out and hang around, and in some cases just make a mockery. So a lot of the older generation just never takes the time to actually LISTEN to what a teenager has to say, therefore their questions aren't taken seriously.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]Perhaps I did misunderstand, but it?s kind of sad if you think about it. As it sounds like some adults are allowing the behavior of some teenagers to influence their judgment on all teenagers. And if you stop and think about it, the adults are supposed to be more mature. So I guess I just don?t understand why they wouldn?t take me seriously when they knew I am not the type to be that way. [QUOTE=Esther][SIZE=1']Well is that her sole income? Or does she have a side job of some sort?[/SIZE][/quote]You?ve confused me, what does having another job have to do with tithing? I?m talking about tithing on child support, not on a regular job. But to answer your question, she is disabled and lives on disability. So no she doesn?t have a side job, besides being my mom. ^_~

I?ll clarify it a bit. Yes according the LDS/Mormon belief paying tithing is supposed to help you get blessings, but at some point, especially within a family unit, there shouldn?t be double tithing. If my parents were still married it wouldn?t even be a question. I initially thought nothing of it until I found out that other mothers with kids who are divorced do not pay tithing on child support since their ex-husband already did. And the ones who did have jobs did pay tithing on money that they earned.

It just confuses me that the bishop told my Mom she should pay tithing. As if being divorced meant her and I wouldn?t get blessings from what my father did. I mean he is doing what he?s supposed to do, provide for his kids. He also told her that she should pay tithing on her disability checks as well.

The whole thing with my father paying tithing and then my mother paying just comes across as the church finding ways to get as much tithing as possible from a family, as if they are taking advantage of the fact that they are divorced. Plus, why would one bishop tell my mom to pay, and another from a different ward tell divorced mothers to not pay on their child support when they knew that their ex was paying it already? [quote name='Esther][SIZE=1]Well, America is supposably the best country in the world where everyone is equal and you can get a job no matter what. But still, have you ever seen a woman/colored president? Of course not, but that doesn't make you want to stop being American does it?[/SIZE][/QUOTE]Not to be mean, but that comparison is completely off. I may have never seen a woman/colored president, but they can run for the office and if elected, they can hold the position. Women can never hold positions in the church that are solely for men. There?s just no comparison here as it?s not the same thing at all. [QUOTE=Esther][SIZE=1]This is probably because of the "rude peoples" upbringing as a child. Their father was probably out working while their mother was at home tending to them and their siblings, and they were taught to do the same. So obviously the fact that the man was at home probably alienated them, and in some odd way got them upset. [/SIZE'] [/quote]Upbringing might affect it, but I?ve over heard adults whispering behind people?s backs on this subject and it?s usually along the lines of there must be something wrong with them, that if they had more faith in the mother staying home and the father working, things would work out. It was total bull, but they still believed that it was a lack of faith on their part that the mother worked and the husband stayed home.

I?m sorry, but I?m going to disagree on this a bit as all the classes and meetings I remembered at church, emphasizes how important it is for a woman to be a mother and for a guy to be the provider. Not once did I ever hear anything about working together should that not be possible. So even if someone was influenced by his or her upbringing to think that way, well it sounds like the church was part of that upbringing. [quote name='Esther][SIZE=1']This is why science and religious theory can never come together. If you ever take any sort of scientific theory and put it along with religion, especially Christianity and the story of Adam and Eve well.. it gets really ugly and it comes out making no sense. So if you don't believe in the story of Adam and Eve, then so be it.[/SIZE][/quote]And I?m a great fan of science. ^_~ I like things that are more logical and on some level are provable. And since religions are often filled with contradictions, it just drives me up the wall a bit.

I guess you could say the whole thing came down to I got tired of running into the attitude of 'how dare you question your elders!' And since I've always been fairly independent/stubborn in forming my own opinion. The idea that I wasn't allowed to question or think for myself totally turned me off on religion. :animesigh

Oh and I do have AIM, the information is in my profile. Though truthfully I?m not on a lot as I?m more into reading, doing my homework and visiting my friends. I don?t do a lot of online chatting. I do enjoy talking with others when I am on though. ;) [/COLOR]

[Boo]

[QUOTE=HedonismBot][COLOR=Sienna]
So God's just a parent who likes to play favourites? Because it hardly seems fair that he'll give his gifts to some and not to others; reveal himself to some and leave others in the dark. You know what I'm getting at; that doesn't make a lot of sense. Assuming, of course, that God is a decent parent and not some asshole deadbeat, like you said.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[size=1]... What makes you think that he gives presents to some people, and leaves others in the dark, as your matter of speaking?[/size]

[Hanabishi Recca]

[B]1. What religion are you CURRENTLY following? If you don't have one, then why?[/B]

I'm Christian. To sum it up, I believe in what the Bible says (Which is what God says and every such thing).

[B]2. Why do you follow that religion? Parents, personal reasons, etc?[/B]

I picked to be a Christian myself. (My Mother is really easy on things like this. So, I could actually be whatever I want. So I wasn't forced or anything like that.)

[B]3. Do you ever feel that people often critisize you because of these beliefs?[/B]

Not really. I never actually feel anyone saying anything about my believes and actually down right critisize me about it. People have hinted at it somewhat, but it never went further than that.

[B]4. Do you believe that your religion is the [I]one true religion?[/I] If so provide evidence.[/B]

Well, I do believe that it is (Obviously). Evidence? My evidence is myself I suppose.
The Bible says that a Christians life is to be lived by love and through love and its a horrible truth to say that there are alot more Christians out there not living the way God initially intended for them to live. Alot of Christians live the way they want to not ever knowing who they are or what they are able to even do. I can't seriously change someones mind without having physical evidence. So, with me not being able to come over there I can't actually prove to you guys that God is real in me.

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][quote name='Esther][SIZE=1]]Well, America is supposably the best country in the world where everyone is equal and you can get a job no matter what. But still, have you ever seen a woman/colored president? Of course not, but that doesn't make you want to stop being American does it?[/SIZE][/QUOTE] I?m sure you meant well with that comparison, but in all honesty it doesn?t apply. You or I can both run for President, where becoming president of say the church is completely out of the question, it will never happen so long as such positions are only open to men who hold the priesthood (if I remember correctly) So you?ll need a more valid argument as to why you think the LDS church is an equal opportunity religion. [QUOTE=Aaryanna][COLOR=DarkOrchid'] You?ve confused me, what does having another job have to do with tithing? I?m talking about tithing on child support, not on a regular job. But to answer your question, she is disabled and lives on disability. So no she doesn?t have a side job, besides being my mom. ^_~ [/COLOR][/quote]I can see where you are coming from on this issue. After all for federal income tax purposes, child support is tax-free to the recipient, meaning neither the ex-spouse nor the child owes taxes on it. So it really does make no sense that members of the LDS church are paying tithing on something of this nature.

It?s not the same as a situation where say your boss is LDS and he pays tithing on what he earns and then you pay tithing on what he pays you. Both parties in this instance have worked to earn that money and therefore are taxed on it. Where the child support is money that the father/mother hands over to the ex-spouse since they are no longer married. So it only makes sense that they are not taxed on the child support. After all when they were married and the one working gave their spouse money to pay for things, the government didn?t tax them then either.

Considering that many divorced mothers often struggle to make ends meet, it seems like having them paying tithing on child support is counter productive. I don?t really buy into the argument that such a thing brings blessings, after all in reality; the LDS church doesn?t really need that money.[I] If the LDS Church were a U.S. corporation, by revenues it would be about halfway up on the list of Fortune 500 companies.[/I] So it seems to me that it would be far more charitable of them to tell divorced mothers to not pay tithing on money they receive from child support.[quote name='Aaryanna][COLOR=DarkOrchid']Oh and I do have AIM, the information is in my profile. Though truthfully I?m not on a lot as I?m more into reading, doing my homework and visiting my friends. I don?t do a lot of online chatting. I do enjoy talking with others when I am on though. ;) [/COLOR][/quote]I?ll vouch for that. You?re next to impossible to catch online. :p[/COLOR]

[Darktactic]

1. What religion are you CURRENTLY following? If you don't have one, then why?

Currently, I do not follow any widespread religion. The reason why I have chosen not to participate in religion is because every one that I have tried has lacked sincerity and motivation. I have in many instances attempted to be a part of religion (many different forms of it), but no matter how hard I?ve sought to put my disbelief in the divine being or supreme entity known as ?God? (which applies to the majority of popular beliefs) behind me I have never escaped a certain thought in the back of my head. That thought being that religion is nothing but a ploy intended to manipulate people?s hearts to do the will of a corrupt church organization. History demonstrates the effectiveness of this strategy. Religion has served as an instigator for many wars as it pits those with opposing beliefs against one another. There is no way to argue that this is not true. The Crusades are one of numerous examples. Wars are a basic, and easy way to obtain wealth. The conquering of other peoples sated the appetites of greedy, power-hungry aristocrats who held high places in The Church. To this day, the rift between religions still exists. Sub-divisions even further divide religions. The Sunnis and Shiites sects exemplify this well. Even though they both believe in Islam, the eradication of Muhammad?s successor Ali has created a fundamental difference between the two. You may not see such obvious exemplifications often, but I assure you that they still exist. Even within sects disagreement remains, and thus, the unanimous confidence in a belief cannot be. The roots of religions are a major source of concern and contemplation for me as well.

2. Why do you follow that religion? Parents, personal reasons, etc?

I follow my own rules, as there is nothing more important to me than upholding my own values. It?s the same with everyone, regardless of religion. People share common beliefs instinctively, and religion binds all of them together.

3. Do you ever feel that people often criticize you because of these beliefs?

No, people do not know what my beliefs are. The only way in which they may understand is through experience with me, and not even I know myself that well.

4. This one may spark a little bit of arguing: Do you believe that your religion is the one true religion? If so provide evidence.

I do not believe that there is one ?true? religion out of those that exist, especially taking into account all of the other unsolvable mysteries there are in the world.

[The13thMan]

[QUOTE=HedonismBot][COLOR=Sienna]
So God's just a parent who likes to play favourites? Because it hardly seems fair that he'll give his gifts to some and not to others; reveal himself to some and leave others in the dark. You know what I'm getting at; that doesn't make a lot of sense. Assuming, of course, that God is a decent parent and not some asshole deadbeat, like you said.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]He gives us all the same things, it is up to us to take advantage of them. But he doesn't have control over our own free will. The environment we are born into is entirely dependant upon our biological parents. Not everybody can be born into a rich lifestyle. This is a consequence of free will.

Also, i actually already answered your question. I said that god gave us free will and because of this he lost some of his power. I said that he is not all powerful. He does [B]not[/B] have control over our lives, that's what it means to have free will.

Maybe that didn't answer your question, so why don't you ask me the same question in a specific instance, be it hypothetical or not.


[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[B]1. What religion are you CURRENTLY following? If you don't have one, then why?[/B]

Well currently I am a member of the Mormon Church. I?ve been a member for over forty years. So it?s more than just a current trend for me. ;)

[B]2. Why do you follow that religion? Parents, personal reasons, etc?[/B]

Initially I became a member because my parents converted to it when I was a child. And to be honest I didn?t really care since at that age church was just that, time you spent going to some form of chapel to show your devotion to God.

[B]3. Do you ever feel that people often critisize you because of these beliefs?[/B]

Right now no one gives me any grief over my beliefs. When my family first joined we did have many relatives who took it as a sign of us becoming lost sheep so to speak, and to this day, many of them will not speak to me or any of my family that joined the church.

[B]4. This one may spark a little bit of arguing: Do you believe that your religion is the [I]one true religion?[/I] If so provide evidence.[/B]

Obviously on some level I do. However, the idea of calling only one religion the true religion is something that I do not completely agree with. I?m more inclined to believe that all religions have some form of truth in them. I guess you could say I just don?t believe that God would be so petty as to punish good people just because they don?t belong to the same church. [quote name='Esther][SIZE=1]Honey, we want the best for our youth. We want to guide them into a better LDS member lifestyle, but today's generation seems to goof around way too much. Perhaps that's why you're overseer's didn't take your questions as serious as they should have? And if you don't mind me asking, which questions were these exactly?[/SIZE][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Retribution][size=1']My friend's (an atheist) parents brushed aside his non-belief as a teenage phase. I guess I can see where the adult would see non-belief as teenage rebellion/angst, but on some level, you've got to take the kid seriously.[/size][/quote]Retribution is correct. Even if it is teenage rebellion/angst, it is a mistake on the adult?s part to not take their questions seriously. It?s all to easy to dismiss our children when they are in this stage when in reality the fact that they are even asking questions shows that on some level they are searching for the answers.

I speak from experience as I alienated some of my older children by not taking them seriously and it is something that I regret. It is also part of why I respect Aaryanna?s choices, as I do not want to make the same mistake with her. Especially since I feel that by not taking her seriously, I am in fact doing far more harm than her not attending church ever will.

I guess it?s my age speaking as well as I?ve seen countless families torn apart by parents who refused to accept or respect their children?s choices in life. If God Himself saw fit to give us free will, then we must do the same for our children. Lead by example and by answering their questions to the best of our ability, but most importantly, not brushing them off or alienating them when they make choices we do not agree with.

In all honesty, when the subject of my daughters supposed disrespect or bad behavior is brought up I remind the members that their own behavior was just as disrespectful if not more than hers. [quote name='Esther][SIZE=1']Well is that her sole income? Or does she have a side job of some sort?[/SIZE][/quote]I believe my daughter answered this very well already, but I?ll add my two cents as well. Whether or not I have another job is irrelevant. Indifference brought up a good point as well in comparing it to how taxes are done.

I have always paid it because that is what the bishop has told me to do, but I admit that I wouldn?t mind getting some clarification on this issue from the leaders of the church as it is a bit confusing that one bishop would say pay and another don?t pay. Perhaps it is because the other mothers have other issues as well. But without any form of clarification I have no way of knowing.

I do not have a problem with paying the tithing, but it does bother me that her question was brushed off as being disrespectful. It is in my opinion a valid question and even a simple I don?t know from our current bishop would have been a better answer. [quote name='Esther][SIZE=1']Well, America is supposably the best country in the world where everyone is equal and you can get a job no matter what. But still, have you ever seen a woman/colored president? Of course not, but that doesn't make you want to stop being American does it?[/SIZE][/quote]Hun, don?t mince words. Being Mormon is not about equal opportunity in that respect. The fact that women do not hold the priesthood or positions like the men do is something that we choose to follow. So to turn around and try to make our youth think it?s something it?s not is doing them a disservice.

I have run into many woman pastors from other religions that were in my opinion just as capable and deserving as any man. Why our religion chooses to deny women that position is something I do not understand. And for me that is just fine. The point I believe my daughter was making was why were they trying to convince her that it is equal in that respect when it is in fact not equal?

Again this is something where telling her she was disrespectful was out of line. The person teaching the lesson used a poor choice of words in indicating that we are all equal. Perhaps he meant in the eyes of God, but instead of trying to clarify that statement, he instead took her question as a personal insult to his teaching methods. (yet another member who I have argued with as they came over to visit and tried to give me an earful over my daughters supposed behavior :rolleyes: ) [quote name='Esther][SIZE=1']This is why science and religious theory can never come together. If you ever take any sort of scientific theory and put it along with religion, especially Christianity and the story of Adam and Eve well.. it gets really ugly and it comes out making no sense. So if you don't believe in the story of Adam and Eve, then so be it.[/SIZE][/quote]I?ve always thought that on some level science and religion really aren?t at odds. To me God already has all of this knowledge and the confusion comes from our side of the discussion. Our scientific knowledge is far from complete so it only makes sense to me that it?s going to get ugly and make no sense when we compare the two. We have yet to unlock the secrets. I think one side insisting the other is wrong when in reality we both lack the knowledge or understanding to be able to say the other is wrong causes the problem. And now that this post has gotten horribly long I think I?ll end it here.

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=The13thMan][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]I said that god gave us free will and because of this he lost some of his power. I said that he is not all powerful. He does [B]not[/B] have control over our lives, that's what it means to have free will.
[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I think I've read that theory from about a cazillion fantasy novels... The Bible's not one of them, though.

Anyways, time for me to jump in!

[B]1. What religion are you CURRENTLY following? If you don't have one, then why?[/B]

I don't follow any religion, thus I am athEIst (not athiest, people!). People seem to think atheism is an organized ideology, but it's not really. Sure, some atheists have started organizations, but most of us don't belong to any of them.

Aside religion, what I [I]believe[/I] in is the good and the bad sides in every individual. I have faith that anybody is capable of doing good as well as evil things if they want or the circumstances they live in support it. I'm a humanist in that sense, yes.

[B]2. Why do you follow that religion? Parents, personal reasons, etc?[/B]

My childhood family belongs to the evangelic-lutheran church (not that we ever went to the actual church building except in weddings, funerals and confirmations). My granny who raised me from teenage years to adulthood divorced (is that the right word for it?) from the church when there was this big fight about female pastors many decades ago, and she never rejoined. However, she has always said that she believes in a higher forced looking after us from the heavens.

As for me, I've been against other people telling me what to believe and how to believe for as long as I can remember, and after my confirmation I finalized my decision: I didn't want to belong to an organization that had so many values I couldn't agree with.

As an adult, I've gotten even more confident about my atheism, but I try to keep my respect to other people's beliefs as well (because who am I to say that they believe wrong - how could I know that?!). I still resent the hypocritism and intolerance that the church represents, but at the same time the church has done many good things in Finnish society and in the third world (such as aid the poor).

I will most likely always stand my ground, though, no matter if the church will eventually approve us gay people as sane and equal human beings. I don't have faith to the things said in the Bible and by the mouths of the pastors, so I really don't belong to that institution.

[B]3. Do you ever feel that people often critisize you because of these beliefs?[/B]

Yes. Everybody just assumes that you're part of the church (although only less than 20% of Finnish people actually go to masses), the same way everybody just assumes your straight, or that you grew up with your mother and father as a child. It's just one of those things people are accustomed to in their own life, not realizing how diversing other people's lives can be.

I've never had had any [I]serious[/I] criticism about my atheism, though, at least nothing I couldn't brush off with the staple "you believe your way, I believe mine". I've also tried not to critizise other's religions, but as I said earlier, there are just some values in the evangelic-lutheran church that I simply cannot tolerate. People just tend to take that kind of criticism as an attack towards the whole religion (but in most cases those people are fundamentalists to whom everything is black and white).

[B]4. This one may spark a little bit of arguing: Do you believe that your religion is the one true religion? If so provide evidence.[/B]

I believe that the need to have faith in [I]something[/I] comes from the dephts of human nature - there have been religions since the dawn of human history. It's not a vital need, though - one can very well live without believing in a higher force.

To claim that only [I]one[/I] of the thousands of existing religions (or millions of religions that have ever existed) is the only true religion is absurd to me. Of course people can say they believe that way, but nobody can [I]know[/I] for sure, honestly. And if you don't [I]know[/I] something for a fact, then you are wrong to condemn (or even oppress) other people for not believing what you believe - it's arrogant, hypocritical, and downright evil.

Religion is a complicated issue, and a very personal thing, too. As many of us have seen during this internet age, converting somebody to believe the same as you is not an easy task, oftentimes trying it only leads to disrespect and bad blood. Just look at the current situation between christians and muslims - humans hating each other only based on their religions, failing to see that we're all mere humans in this puny globe of ours, floating somewhere in the eternal vastity of the universe.

How can you say that [I]you[/I] know the secrets of that universe?

[The13thMan]

[QUOTE=Sandy]I think I've read that theory from about a cazillion fantasy novels... The Bible's not one of them, though.

[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]I really don't appreciate that comment. It was uncalled for.

Besiiiiiides, the bible is meant for interpretation. This is my own interpretation of it.I was of the unification church and my views are derived from that. Do you know of the teachings of the unification church? If you don't, then i recommend you not make sarcastic remarks at me. And if you do, the same recommendation goes. ^L^

Anyways, i'm agnostic.

[/FONT][/COLOR]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='The13thMan][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic']I really don't appreciate that comment. It was uncalled for.[/quote][/color][/font]

[color=crimson]But funny and true.[/color]

[quote name='The13thParrot][color=DarkOrange][font=Century Gothic]I was of the unification church and my views are derived from that. Do you know of the teachings of the unification church? [/FONT'][/COLOR][/quote]

[color=crimson]Er, you mean the moonies?

If so then uh.

Wow.[/color]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=HedonismBot][COLOR=Sienna]Why do people assume that, if there [i]is[/i] a God/gods, that it's a benevolent, watchful creature? I think the Pagan/Norse/etc religions had a more realistic view of religion; the gods (under the assumption that they exist) have their own damn problems and don't give a rats *** about you, they're not going to hold your hand through life and make all your problems go away the way a lot of religions claim.

I mean, why would an omnipotent, infallable diety of unfathomable power give a crap about Joe Blow and his problems? That is, to me, the proof that most of the mainstream religions were created by people with people's ideals in mind, not influenced by some god.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[size=1]There is no "more realistic view" of religion/god. Considering it's all taken on faith, there's no way you can say one version of god is more or less valid than another.

The omnipotent, infallible deity that supposedly created us would care about us because they're compassionate as well. I'd say that's possible for a perfect deity, wouldn't you? Isn't it entirely possible that a higher power [i]actually does care[/i]?

Sorry, the argument's more obnoxious than anything else.[/size]