Who disagrees with drinking and drugs?

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]Life is the slow road to death. Live it, love it, regret nothing. The mere idea that one not be allowed to live as they please is rediculous. Anyone should have the right to shorten their life as they please. Only through the restriction of death do people fear it so. Without the fear of death, one could truly live hapilly.

I think nothing should be restricted. You can't say 'this should be, that shouldn't'. It's all one way or all the other. my vote -- legalize everything. :devil:[/COLOR]

EDIT: I just totally contradicted my sig >_< need to change that up...

[Sara]

[color=#b0000b][size=1]I don't drink, but I don't have a problem with the fact that my friends do. It makes things a little awkward sometimes, but eh. Whaddyagonnado?[/size][/color]

[Guest NIKI12345]

Yeah thanks that makes great sense. Well to tell you like over new years I went to Vegas and my uncle has a beer collection. Well I told my uncle that I was thirsty and he said to get a drink in the fridge. So I looked and I found a bottle that said Orange Juice. I drank it an it tasted grate, but different from orange juice. Well I asked my uncle what was in it and he said there was aftershock in it. My dad went crazy and I got hyper. WEEEE! I was in my own little world. To tell you the truth it was kind of scary, but there is my story! I know I'm weird :(

[QUOTE=NightmareVC]I do not disagree with people using either. Though, most drugs are illegal. I suppose, like someone said before me, whatever makes you happy. I'm not saying it's right or wrong to get high in 5th grade. Same goes with getting drunk. I, personally, don't understand why people like getting drunk. The stuff tastes bad most times anyway. Does it make them feel more manly? More like an adult?

I hold nothing against either one, though. I accept them for what they are and do. I do think, however, that should people pay up ( so to speak) for getting drunk and/or high from whatever... That they deserve it. I show no sympathy for those who get hurt or die from the use of illegal or legal substances.

When the time is come, everyone will pay for their actions. Some, sooner than others. It's not just kids either. Adults do some stupid junk too. I actually have a friend that smokes bongs regularly. He's not a bad person nor pushes it on me. He tried to get me to drink once, but he takes no for an answer.

It's when people start to get irresponsible that things go bad. People get hurt, killed, etc. There [B]is[/B] a reason the substance is illegal and/or shouldn't be taken in huge doses. When people mess up, people get messed up. You're either in control or out of control. There's no middle ground here. When you lose control of your own body, mind, and functions... death is normally not far behind. People who are responsible for their own ( and others) death(s) die at a young age. Younger than it should have been, anyway.

"He that is not guilty of his own death shortens not his own life."
-Shakespeare[/QUOTE]

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

I drink socially occasionally, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, as most people have said there's only a problem with alcohol if it's abused and at the end of the day the abusers will be paying for it in years to come.

On the whole illegal drugs thing, they're illegal for a reason, I've never taken drugs and at nearly 20 years of age I have absolutely no interest in ever doing so. Same goes for cigarettes, although I need only look at my immediate and outer family to see the damage done there.[/SIZE]

[mangamaniack21]

I am very against drug abuse most of the time because i have had severalo dare classes and stuff. I've never experienced it firsthand by drinking or smoking, but i have been around people who've done that (mabey at a family christmas party.) Luckily, none of them are chronic alcoholics or anything like that, but they do smoke and that causes me to cough. Yes, i am against it (again) because even though a person might not think that it is harming their body until several years later when they realize it. And it's usually caused by nothing more that "peer pressure"
Lol, now i'm sounding like a DARE officer.

[Guest NIKI12345]

[QUOTE=mangamaniack21]I am very against drug abuse most of the time because i have had severalo dare classes and stuff. I've never experienced it firsthand by drinking or smoking, but i have been around people who've done that (mabey at a family christmas party.) Luckily, none of them are chronic alcoholics or anything like that, but they do smoke and that causes me to cough. Yes, i am against it (again) because even though a person might not think that it is harming their body until several years later when they realize it. And it's usually caused by nothing more that "peer pressure"
Lol, now i'm sounding like a DARE officer.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I went to those classes to. I won this essay contest for why drug, gangs, and drinking is bad for you. I won a free trip to Pasin I think.

[Joanie9111]

Hi Niki!

I can understand your concern, disgust, and fears around drugs and alcohol. There are many psychological and physiological reasons why people get involved in a vicious cycle of using and abusing a substance.

The thing about drugs is that originally there were medicinal intentions for their formulation (with the exception of crack, I guess) and eventually spiraled out of control when there was a shift for them to be used on a recreational level. The same thing is happening with many legal, prescription drugs. So many people for years have abused prescription drugs like ritalin, pain killers, even anti-anxiety drgs, and continue to do so.

Life can suck sometimes, I am sure we are all aware of this, and it can seem almost impossible to deal with. It's hard for many people to deal with really deep, very intense emotions and experiences, which is why some of them do turn to drugs or alcohol, probably initially as an alleviant. That, in itself is quite a problem to deal with, let alone with the potential for substance abuse.

I grew up in your typical really rich suburban area where my parents and their cohorts would have the lavish parties with booze flowing from every angle endlessly, coccaine and marijuana being passed around freely. THat turned me off from the get-go as I was able to see for myself how pathetic and wasted the people would end up being by the end of the night (or early in the morning sometimes).

And it is a shame, because I do enjoy tasting and learning about fine wines and sakes (yes, there are some great ones that do not taste like turpentine). :)

[mangamaniack21]

[quote name='NIKI12345']Yeah I went to those classes to. I won this essay contest for why drug, gangs, and drinking is bad for you. I won a free trip to Pasin I think.[/quote]

That's cool :animesmil Everyone in my DARE class had a big graduation (when i was in elementary school, DARE was part of the cirriculum :animestun) And then we all got free tickets to sesame place. That was a really fun course, which we had a bit of a sampler agian when i went to middle school in 6th grade and we wore "beer goggles" Oh my gosh, at that point the whole class was choatic.

[Guest NIKI12345]

[QUOTE=Joanie9111]Hi Niki!

I can understand your concern, disgust, and fears around drugs and alcohol. There are many psychological and physiological reasons why people get involved in a vicious cycle of using and abusing a substance.

The thing about drugs is that originally there were medicinal intentions for their formulation (with the exception of crack, I guess) and eventually spiraled out of control when there was a shift for them to be used on a recreational level. The same thing is happening with many legal, prescription drugs. So many people for years have abused prescription drugs like ritalin, pain killers, even anti-anxiety drgs, and continue to do so.

Life can suck sometimes, I am sure we are all aware of this, and it can seem almost impossible to deal with. It's hard for many people to deal with really deep, very intense emotions and experiences, which is why some of them do turn to drugs or alcohol, probably initially as an alleviant. That, in itself is quite a problem to deal with, let alone with the potential for substance abuse.

I grew up in your typical really rich suburban area where my parents and their cohorts would have the lavish parties with booze flowing from every angle endlessly, coccaine and marijuana being passed around freely. THat turned me off from the get-go as I was able to see for myself how pathetic and wasted the people would end up being by the end of the night (or early in the morning sometimes).

And it is a shame, because I do enjoy tasting and learning about fine wines and sakes (yes, there are some great ones that do not taste like turpentine). :)[/QUOTE]

Yeah my officer called Will well he had a hard time, but he didn't use drugs to get through them. His brother is in jail and his parents had a problem with drinking and he didn't live in a rich area. He made it through as a officer. :D I go through tough things too, but I'm not taking drugs. So its really the choice of the user. :p

[Guest SquallLeonheart]

[QUOTE]people pay up ( so to speak) for getting drunk and/or high from whatever... That they deserve it. I show no sympathy for those who get hurt or die from the use of illegal or legal substances.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with this, I often see on the news or hear from a friend that oh said person overdosed. I'm just saying, am I supposed to feel bad for their stupidity? they knew what they were putting in their body and the possible affects. Why should I pity someones ignorance or lack of common sense.

Personally, I do not drink nor do I do drugs. I have no problem with someone drinking if they are able to control themselves and not completely abuse the substance. I've gotten drunk once or twice, and I really didn't like it so I chose not to drink if a friend of mine wants to drink I don't care. I just hate when people get out of control and do stupid things like drive etc. As far as Illegal drugs go, I think we need tougher laws on them, you get busted for a gram of coke or whatever, you get a life sentence let's see how fast people would stop pushing. It's fact that, any drug can be abused, if a person really wants to get high bad enough but for those substances that are already illegal just make the laws tougher. If someone wants to abuse medication they are prescribed, or get prescribed medication from someone then let them, they won't last long anyways.

[Guest NIKI12345]

[QUOTE=SquallLeonheart]I totally agree with this, I often see on the news or hear from a friend that oh said person overdosed. I'm just saying, am I supposed to feel bad for their stupidity? they knew what they were putting in their body and the possible affects. Why should I pity someones ignorance or lack of common sense.

Personally, I do not drink nor do I do drugs. I have no problem with someone drinking if they are able to control themselves and not completely abuse the substance. I've gotten drunk once or twice, and I really didn't like it so I chose not to drink if a friend of mine wants to drink I don't care. I just hate when people get out of control and do stupid things like drive etc. As far as Illegal drugs go, I think we need tougher laws on them, you get busted for a gram of coke or whatever, you get a life sentence let's see how fast people would stop pushing. It's fact that, any drug can be abused, if a person really wants to get high bad enough but for those substances that are already illegal just make the laws tougher. If someone wants to abuse medication they are prescribed, or get prescribed medication from someone then let them, they won't last long anyways.[/QUOTE]

Well to tell you the truth the laws are getting tighter. Some people wanted the law of now smoking or I think it was no drinking in a bar. When I heard that it made no sense at all even though I'm against drinking and drugs I still think drinking should be allowed in a bar. If not then why do we even have a bar in the first palce.

[Baron Samedi]

[quote name='NIKI12345']Well to tell you the truth the laws are getting tighter. Some people wanted the law of now smoking or I think it was no drinking in a bar. When I heard that it made no sense at all even though I'm against drinking and drugs I still think drinking should be allowed in a bar. If not then why do we even have a bar in the first palce.[/quote]
[CENTER][img]http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/2671/iloldwq9.jpg[/img][/CENTER]

[pooperson]

[quote name='NIKI12345']Well to tell you the truth the laws are getting tighter. Some people wanted the law of now smoking or I think it was no drinking in a bar. When I heard that it made no sense at all even though I'm against drinking and drugs I still think drinking should be allowed in a bar. If not then why do we even have a bar in the first palce.[/quote]
[SIZE=1][COLOR=RoyalBlue]
Oh my. I think you may be confused.
I work in a sports bar. AKA - Bar + Family Dining. Smoking IS allowed in the bar area but only because of our high ventilation system. Otherwise, smoking is banned in public places, especially restaurants, in the city of Indianapolis.
I think what people want is for there to be no SMOKING in a bar setting, not drinking. There is no way that people could get rid of drinking in a restaurant that sell alcohol, let alone a bar. However, these people don't understand that honestly, from the non-smoking section, you can even tell anyone is lit up. Ahh, it's so beautiful.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[TherapySessions]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']Did I hear you correctly in that drugs allow for stunning spiritual experiences? What?s spiritual about a substance that chemically alters the way your body experiences things? I see nothing spiritual about that, only a blind foolishness in thinking chemical reactions due to taking drugs can somehow connect you with that which is spiritual when in reality it?s disconnecting you from how your body is designed to work. [/quote]

What is spiritual? The experience involved that making your mind work in an entirely different way allows you to percieve. Our minds have evolved in a way that is best suited to our survival, not neccesarily the most "spiritual" mindset as that has never been beneficial to the survival of a gene. I'm not a paricularly spiritual person, however people DO quite often have spiritual experiences on mind expanding psychedelics which can change them for the better. They are not mutually exclusive (obviously), but they can certainly help. Are you going to deny someones subjective experience based on an apparent ignorance about psychedelic drugs?

You also imply that your body is "designed" to work in a certain way. By who? Whether or not our bodies are designed to work in these ways is irrelevant, as our bodies were not neccesarily designed in the first place, however they CAN work in these ways by injesting chemicals that are chemical derivatives of the neurotransmitters that are essential to our brains. Serotonin and various other receptors are essential to our mindstates and chemical cousins of other tryptamines like LSD, 4-HO-DMT (Magic mushrooms anyone?) and various other lesser known psychedelic tryptamines, which are closer (and physically safer) chemicals to us than most of the chemicals yous would take without a second thought if prescribed from a doctor or bought in a shop.

[QUOTE=Rachmaninoff]If people had to have a mindset or discipline to get an intended effect, there wouldn?t be any point in having drugs since the results of using them would be all over the chart. They would cease to have any true value at this point.

Sure drugs are responsible for great things, like laws to keep them out of the hands of idiots who would use them for the high and not some spiritual trip. [/QUOTE]

Well the majority of the population have not tried psychedelic drugs so that's pretty much a mute point just now. However, most of the people that I know who have are very open minded, empathetic people, mostly everyone else I know hasn't tried them because they have bought into the propaganda surrounding them (sound like anyone?), plus psychedelic mind expansion is looked down upon by a large amount of society (how ironic).

If I were to be cliche I'd say that great things to come out of drugs were drug influenced musicians of which there have been many, if I were to give a more relevant point I'd mention the fact that Francis Crick attributes discovering the DNA Double Helix to LSD and that there are large amounts of people actively participating in humanitarian aid and trying to changethe world for better as a result of psychedelic drug use.

Oh and before your tar me with the previous posters brush this is not "pseudo-intellectual babble", I am talking about real experiences that have actually changed people for the better due to the actions of specific drugs, which is well documented worldwide. The people that show an interest for psychedelics in my experience are some of the most empathetic, peace loving, open minded and humanitarian people I know. As I said earlier, who are you to deny someones subjective experience?

[QUOTE=SquallLeonheart]I totally agree with this, I often see on the news or hear from a friend that oh said person overdosed. I'm just saying, am I supposed to feel bad for their stupidity? they knew what they were putting in their body and the possible affects. Why should I pity someones ignorance or lack of common sense.
[/QUOTE]

What an utterly apathetic view to show for another persons life. When I hear that someone has died on the tv I generally show little actual emotion due to the fact that I have never met them and dying is a part of life. However, I think that to show such little consideration for the fact that someone has lost their life, simply because they chose to do drugs is quite shocking.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Tell me Therapy, if you hear that someone chose to have a drag-race with someone else, crashed their car and died, do you feel sorry for them? I sure as hell don't. If people decide to do something ridiculously stupid that they [i]know[/i] could hurt them, or kill them, they do not deserve sympathy. The only thing I feel is relief that they didn't take anyone else with them.[/size]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='TherapySessions] Are you going to deny someones subjective experience based on an apparent ignorance about psychedelic drugs? [/QUOTE]Whether or not I am ignorant about said drugs is irrelevant. The ones who make them illegal know a hell of a lot more than I do. So yes I would deny them that experience since usually they are made illegal for a good reason. [QUOTE=TherapySessions] Serotonin and various other receptors are essential to our mindstates and chemical cousins of other tryptamines like LSD, 4-HO-DMT (Magic mushrooms anyone?) and various other lesser known psychedelic tryptamines, which are closer (and physically safer) chemicals to us than most of the chemicals yous would take without a second thought if prescribed from a doctor or bought in a shop.[/QUOTE]But that?s the whole point here, drugs like LSD are not something your doctor is going to prescribe for you, and what made you think I?d take anything just because my doctor ordered it? I?m sure I?m not the only patient who asks questions about just what the doctor wants me to take. And there are times, especially when painkillers are involved, where I opt for the less powerful ones since some of the stronger ones have very negative effects. [QUOTE=TherapySessions']Well the majority of the population have not tried psychedelic drugs so that's pretty much a mute point just now. However, most of the people that I know who have are very open minded, empathetic people, mostly everyone else I know hasn't tried them because they have bought into the propaganda surrounding them (sound like anyone?), plus psychedelic mind expansion is looked down upon by a large amount of society (how ironic).[/quote]Most of the people I know who haven?t taken them are open minded, empathetic people, and guess what? They didn?t need illegal drugs to get that way.

Oh, sorry, I guess since you think it?s propaganda, in spite of all the cases where doctors have dealt with druggies and documented the known side effects and problems, then we are pretty much done here since it seems you?ve already decided that the rest of us can?t think for themselves. I suppose the we might have seen others pretty much self-destruct their lives once they became addicted to illegal substances is irrelevant. (how ironic) [quote name='TherapySessions']If I were to be cliche I'd say that great things to come out of drugs were drug influenced musicians of which there have been many, if I were to give a more relevant point I'd mention the fact that Francis Crick attributes discovering the DNA Double Helix to LSD and that there are large amounts of people actively participating in humanitarian aid and trying to changethe world for better as a result of psychedelic drug use.[/quote]How about some data on the large amounts of people actively participating in humanitarian aid due to psychedelic drug use? Unless you are talking about the ones trying to help the actual druggies?

Because I can easily think of organizations like the Mormon church who have millions of active members helping with humanitarian aid all with out the aid of any form of psychedelic drug. If you are trying to imply that psychedelic drug use makes people more inclined to be more humanitarian, I don?t buy it. [quote name='TherapySessions']Oh and before your tar me with the previous posters brush this is not "pseudo-intellectual babble", I am talking about real experiences that have actually changed people for the better due to the actions of specific drugs, which is well documented worldwide. The people that show an interest for psychedelics in my experience are some of the most empathetic, peace loving, open minded and humanitarian people I know. As I said earlier, who are you to deny someones subjective experience?[/quote]How about you show some of this documentation you speak of? Because it?s fairly easy to find documentation on all the negative effects and deaths caused by the same illegal drugs you are casting in the role of something that makes people more ?empathetic, peace loving, open minded and humanitarian?

So who are you to deny others the right to put an end to something that has been proven to be so destructive? If these drugs were really so beneficial the drug companies would be selling them left and right to make a profit. Instead of them being illegal.

[TherapySessions]

[QUOTE=Rachmaninoff]Whether or not I am ignorant about said drugs is irrelevant. The ones who make them illegal know a hell of a lot more than I do. So yes I would deny them that experience since usually they are made illegal for a good reason. But that?s the whole point here, drugs like LSD are not something your doctor is going to prescribe for you, and what made you think I?d take anything just because my doctor ordered it? I?m sure I?m not the only patient who asks questions about just what the doctor wants me to take. And there are times, especially when painkillers are involved, where I opt for the less powerful ones since some of the stronger ones have very negative effects. Most of the people I know who haven?t taken them are open minded, empathetic people, and guess what? They didn?t need illegal drugs to get that way.
[/QUOTE]

I think that it's highly relevant actually, if you're expecting to put across a fair, none-bias argument that reflects your own oponion and not something that you simply expect to be true because you've heard the usual horror stories or read something in the media. Do you automatically trust anyone in a position to make these desicions and always think the right one has been made?

and technically, in the UK at least, certain drugs have been classified due to a blanket legalisation that has made certain psychedelics which are of similiar chemical nature to drugs like MDMA or LSD Class A. No leniency has been made for drugs which are not toxic and can not physically harm you and are even very gentle on the mind. So in certain cases, the people who have made them illegal have shown a complete lack of disregard for whether or not these chemicals should infact be illegal, they have simply lumped them into one "high risk" group (at the risk of peoples freedoms and lives (slightly ironic), with no regard for drug harm reduction at all).

You're right, LSD isn't something your doctor is going to prescribe to you now, due to the fact that it isn't an over the counter drug. However that's not to say that there hasn't been a great deal of research into these drugs by scientists and people in the medical profession - helping to cure conditions such as OCD, alcoholism, cluster headaches, Post Traumatic Stress and recent research in which terminal cancer patients have been given psychoactive mushrooms and MDMA.

Related reading:

[url]http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg18524881.400[/url]
[url]http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,65025,00.html[/url]
[url]http://www.maps.org/research[/url]

Although this is getting slightly off the original topic, if you always look into the medication that your doctor prescribes then that is always a good thing, my point was that you said our bodies are not designed to work in that way, but whos to say seeing as our brains allow it and substances like this work by mimicking the natural receptors that are already inside our brains in a way that things like paracetamol and various other "taken for granted" medicines do not. Would you say that paracetamol is not designed to work that way so therefore we shouldn't use it? You say that you have taken pain killers, yet what are the chances that they were so closely related to the indigenous chemicals that exist inside our brains?

I've already stated that being open minded or empathetic and taking drugs are not mutually exclusive. Are you denying that they can have that effect though?

[QUOTE=Rachmaninoff]
Oh, sorry, I guess since you think it?s propaganda, in spite of all the cases where doctors have dealt with druggies and documented the known side effects and problems, then we are pretty much done here since it seems you?ve already decided that the rest of us can?t think for themselves. I suppose the we might have seen others pretty much self-destruct their lives once they became addicted to illegal substances is irrelevant. (how ironic)[/QUOTE]

Well yes actually a lot of the drug stories in the media are propaganda, a lot of media articles that come through are done by reporters with about as much knowledge about psychoactive drugs as you appear to have. It's not uncommon for articles to be full to the brim of untruths and misinformation. I did not decide that the rest of you "can't think for yourselves", I'm not going to make any assumptions about the rest of humanity just because I think that you in particular come across as slightly naive and mislead.

I'd say that whether or not you have seen someone self-destruct their lives after becoming addicted to illegal substances is infact actually irrelevant, seeing as you were originally denying someones (psychedelic) drug induced [i]personal[/i] experience and [i]psychedelics[/i] are not addictive. I am not talking about opiates, benzos, amphetamines or anything like that so yes that would be wholey irrelevant as they are entirely different chemicals. How can you even try to argue a point when you are clearly so ignorant about the topic at hand.

[QUOTE=Rachmaninoff]How about some data on the large amounts of people actively participating in humanitarian aid due to psychedelic drug use? Unless you are talking about the ones trying to help the actual druggies?

Because I can easily think of organizations like the Mormon church who have millions of active members helping with humanitarian aid all with out the aid of any form of psychedelic drug. If you are trying to imply that psychedelic drug use makes people more inclined to be more humanitarian, I don?t buy it.
[/QUOTE]

I've already stated that they are not mutually excluse (re mormons)? Also, as I'm sure you can imagine, the national statistics office isn't exactly likely to have taken surveys on how many humanitarians have taken psychedelics, but just look at the hippie movement of the 60's or the left wing movments about now that are full of these type of people who advocate peoples right to take whatever substances they choose. A lot of psychedelic drug users are very left wing inclined and do a lot of work for charities or human rights groups but that's not to say that there is exactly going to be a mass of data on it.

Naive attitudes like yours are why the are illegal, whether or not they should be is another argument alltogether. I am not denying anybodies right as that would involve me somehow singlehandedly making them legal again, I am just voicing my opinions on a public forum. However, I am being denied the right by my government to safely take whatever substance I choose to put into my own body. I am not saying that taking these substances go without risks (although direct lsd/psilocybin mushroom deaths? Would love to see the reports by the way?), but the benefits which you appear to deny even exist are very much real.

How they have changed people, thanks to erowid submitted reports and an informative survey:

[url]http://www.erowid.org/general/survey/survey_lsd8_quotes1.shtml[/url]
[url]http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=7835[/url]
[url]http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=31950[/url]
[url]http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=42273.html[/url]

and that's just a couple of reports I found after sifting through. Not to mention Native South American documented use of DMT and mescaline going back hundreds of years for healing and spiritual purposes.

I don't particularly care whether or not you believe me about this, it's entirely upto you. I'll sum it up by saying that psychedelic drugs CAN change people for the better and people DO have spiritual experiences. When you break down your concept of reality and self, anything can happen inside your mind. These drugs do not come without risks, however toxicity and direct deaths as a result of overdose are not an issue for psilocybin mushroms, lsd, mescaline, dmt etc. They are not for everyone and it's entirely upto anyone whether or not they take that risk.

Baron Samedi - Well I'm not exactly going to hold a ten minute silence, but I'd hold a certain amount of sympathy for anyone that lost their life. I certainly wouldn't think they deserved it just because they had an accident and overdosed or likewise with something that they chose to do. It would be a very cold attitude to have on for someones life.

[Guest NIKI12345]

Hey every one has a opinion so all three of you stop fighting. TherapySessions you just can't be going around saying other people are wrong okay and Rachmaninoff everybody sees your opinion just you don't have to fight with others opinions. Later

[Rachmaninoff]

TherapySessions: As far as I am concerned our discussion is pretty much over at this point. I do have one recommendation for you in regards to the thought that others believe that drugs are bad for you due to propaganda and poorly written articles. Consider this, so far a huge percent of what you are countering with is nothing more than articles and information from sources that you yourself did not create, sound familiar? Both of us are guilty of taking outside sources of information and accepting them as truth, and just as you do not accept what I have read, why should I accept what you have read as the truth?

You seem to think illegal drugs are okay, I do not. And I for one have no interest in hijacking this thread only to argue my points that in the end you are going to dismiss just as I will not accept yours. We disagree, end of discussion. And that is my final statement, at least in regards to your opinion on this topic.

[Guest NIKI12345]

Yeah the battle is over because of Rachmaninoff. Thank you. I posted this thread to get opinions not someone to fight against them. I didn't want someone to say **This is the right answer and everyone else is wrong** So I'm glad its over thanks again Rachmaninoff

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='NIKI12345'] I mean who doesn't like parties. [/quote]

[color=deeppink]*raises hand* I hate parties. They're loud, almost always have terrible music, everyone is obnoxious, and none of the activities hold any interest for me. I've actually gotten into (verbal) fights with people who keep trying to get me to go to one.

I'd much rather curl up with a good book.[/color]


[quote name='Rachmaninoff']Oh, sorry, I guess since you think it?s propaganda, in spite of all the cases where doctors have dealt with druggies and documented the known side effects and problems, [/quote]

[color=deeppink]Just so you know, that's still propaganda, just like most of this thread. My post included.


On to the topic. I don't drink or do drugs. I likely never will. It's because I don't want to, not that I think anything like ingesting something is wrong. Why are people so adamant about how drugs are immoral? Not necessarily the posters in this thread, mind you, but I know someone who refused to watch That 70's Show after they realized what The Circle was all about. Confusingly, she laughed at the scenes despite not knowing exactly what was going on, but I digress.

I simply don't see how taking drugs, even the most self-damaging ones, is immoral. The only thing I can think of is that they're illegal, but it is illegal to perform a puppet show in my state. I'd hardly call that immoral. That doesn't even concern drinking for those of age.

That being said, I can't stand being around someone who's drunk or high. One person tripping on a (perfectly legal) drug almost broke my ribcage, and very few drunks can hold a conversation without either yelling or babbling.
[/color]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Nerdsy][color=deeppink']Just so you know, that's still propaganda, just like most of this thread. My post included.[/color][/quote]
[size=1]As far as I can tell, Rachmaninoff's posts were not propaganda as they are supported by the majority of the scientific community with fact (or as close as we can be to them at this point).

[QUOTE][color=deeppink]I simply don't see how taking drugs, even the most self-damaging ones, is immoral. [/color][/QUOTE]
A number of reasons. Most notable is that these drugs cause violent or irrational behavior in the user, to the point where their judgment is severely impaired. That opens the door for any number of scenarios were innocent parties can be harmed or killed.

Additionally, selling contraband on the streets seriously screws a neighborhood. With illegal drugs come the crime and prostitutes. The land value plummets as well.[/size]

[AzureWolf]

[QUOTE=Nerdsy][color=deeppink]*raises hand* I hate parties. They're loud, almost always have terrible music, everyone is obnoxious, and none of the activities hold any interest for me. I've actually gotten into (verbal) fights with people who keep trying to get me to go to one.

I'd much rather curl up with a good book.[/color][/QUOTE][COLOR=maroon]So you dislike big, bad parties. Try some small, nice parties with only close friends, not people that have probably never met or only once seen each other in the hallways.

I hate those parties too, but good parties are... well, good![QUOTE][color=deeppink]I simply don't see how taking drugs, even the most self-damaging ones, is immoral. The only thing I can think of is that they're illegal, but it is illegal to perform a puppet show in my state. I'd hardly call that immoral. That doesn't even concern drinking for those of age.[/color][/QUOTE]IMO, it's probably a bad choice of words that's making the problem in this thread. Maybe drugs aren't immoral at all.

But, consider this: if you see a person running onto a street and going directly into a car's path, is it immoral to not do anything? Technically speaking, it's not immoral, but you should do something for the person. You aren't doing anything wrong, even if that other person is doing some type of harm to himself. Is it immoral to go out into the blazing cold to get medicine for a sick stranger even though you're the only one who can?

Drugs are the same way. Sure, they aren't immoral per say, and people shouldn't care what others do per say... Yet there are a lot of drugs that, taken once, will define a good part of your life forever. Regardless of how many people who have done one drug fifty times and never experienced a side effect, that doesn't change the fact that others do experience them. LSD, for instance, is a drug that stays with you forever (ok, technically it doesn't, but its effects do). Relapses - however short or momentary - are forever imprinted in your head, waiting for a trigger to pull you back. It may not be addictive in the least, but your reality will never be... umm... real?[/COLOR]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Whether or not using illegal drugs is immoral or not isn't really the issue. Just as documents can be found that state the apparent benefits of using illegal drugs, so can ones that show the dangers such as accidents caused by people driving while they are high: [URL=http://www.mapinc.org/tlcnews/v02/n2124/a04.htm?191]Driving[/URL] Or problems caused with pregnancy due to drug use: [URL=http://www.babycentre.co.uk/pregnancy/antenatalhealth/physicalhealth/illegaldrugs/]Birth Issues[/URL]

It is rather ironic that you would link to such a site like Erowid TherapySessions, since it is fast becoming a resource used by medical professionals to help them identify patients brought into be treated for using some of those psychedelic drugs of which you speak. So they've had a positive influence in that the knowledge they provide has helped saved fools from themselves.

You said it yourself, take them at your own risk. I would imagine a huge reason they are illegal is that most people do not have the common sense to properly dose themselves for the enlightening experiences drug users claim they get. Claiming it helps your life in the manner you are suggesting is usually an indication of denial in regards to the detrimental effects such substances have. [/COLOR]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']As far as I can tell, Rachmaninoff's posts were not propaganda as they are supported by the majority of the scientific community with fact (or as close as we can be to them at this point).[/size][/quote]

[color=deeppink]Facts are information, and they're being used to prove a point. That's propaganda. [URL=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/propaganda]Here's the definition if you don't believe me.[/URL]

Just because its propaganda doesn't mean it's can't be true. ; )[/color]


[quote=Retriubtion][size=1]A number of reasons. Most notable is that these drugs cause violent or irrational behavior in the user, to the point where their judgment is severely impaired. That opens the door for any number of scenarios were innocent parties can be harmed or killed.

Additionally, selling contraband on the streets seriously screws a neighborhood. With illegal drugs come the crime and prostitutes. The land value plummets as well.[/size][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]A person not paying attention to the road might kill somebody. Does that make driving imoral?

My point here is that taking drugs is not inherently immoral by any objective means. Sure, if you don't take the proper precautions, that could be considered immoral, but that could be said about a lot of things.

I'm having a hard time putting that point into words, so I'll just say this. If Group B is entirely immoral, but is a smaller part of Group A, that doesn't mean [i]everything[/i] in group A is immoral.

Making it legal would probably help subdue drug-related crime (much like re-legalizing alcohol stopped a lot of criminal behavior caused by prohibition in the US), and I personally wouldn't call prostitution immoral either. However, I know that's not a widely held opinion, and I'd rather not discuss that here.

I don't have any idea what legalizing it would do for the land value.

Mind you, I am in [i]no way[/i] saying drugs should be legal. In fact, I'm almost completely against it. My point is that any immorality in doing it would be coming from it being illegal (or doing it irresponsibly). This discussion is also focusing on legal drugs (alcohol, mainly) and I can think of two legal drugs, once of which may cause that irrational behavior and one of which is extremely dangerous. I'd say neither of those is immoral if used properly.

So I'd put this under the "Breaking the law" category, and not simply "Doing drugs."

[quote name='AzureWolf][COLOR=maroon']So you dislike big, bad parties. Try some small, nice parties with only close friends, not people that have probably never met or only once seen each other in the hallways.[/color][/quote]

I hate those parties too, but good parties are... well, good![/quote][/color]

[color=deeppink]Can't stand those, either, but for different reasons. I'm really only happy in groups of four or less. And to be fair, I've never been to a large, impersonal party aside from a school dance or two. Didn't like those, and from my understanding, real parties are much worse. [/color]

[quote=AzureWolf][color=maroon]IMO, it's probably a bad choice of words that's making the problem in this thread. Maybe drugs aren't immoral at all.

But, consider this: if you see a person running onto a street and going directly into a car's path, is it immoral to not do anything? Technically speaking, it's not immoral, but you should do something for the person. You aren't doing anything wrong, even if that other person is doing some type of harm to himself. Is it immoral to go out into the blazing cold to get medicine for a sick stranger even though you're the only one who can?

Drugs are the same way. Sure, they aren't immoral per say, and people shouldn't care what others do per say... Yet there are a lot of drugs that, taken once, will define a good part of your life forever. Regardless of how many people who have done one drug fifty times and never experienced a side effect, that doesn't change the fact that others do experience them. LSD, for instance, is a drug that stays with you forever (ok, technically it doesn't, but its effects do). Relapses - however short or momentary - are forever imprinted in your head, waiting for a trigger to pull you back. It may not be addictive in the least, but your reality will never be... umm... real?[/color][/quOTE]

[color=deeppink]My argument deals entirely with the morality of doing drugs. I'm perfectly fine with laws being made to keep save people from harm.

Hell, I'd go as far as to say that it's immoral not to step in and save someone from harming themselves. But I don't think that self-harm is immoral.[/color]


[quote name='indifference][color=maroon']Whether or not using illegal drugs is immoral or not isn't really the issue. [/color][/quote]

[color=deeppink]Morality can have a big impact on whether or not somebody agrees with something.[/color]