Who disagrees with drinking and drugs?

[Guest NIKI12345]

[QUOTE=Nerdsy][color=deeppink]Facts are information, and they're being used to prove a point. That's propaganda. [URL=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/propaganda]Here's the definition if you don't believe me.[/URL]

Just because its propaganda doesn't mean it's can't be true. ; )[/color][/QUOTE]

Actually its a oppinion. A propaganda is a way to convice others to do something. No its like a choice of many other oppinion choices like bangwagon effect or scaretatic. All different ways to show a opinion. Just to let you know.

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Nerdsy][color=deeppink]Facts are information, and they're being used to prove a point. That's propaganda. [URL=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/propaganda]Here's the definition if you don't believe me.[/URL]

Just because its propaganda doesn't mean it's can't be true. ; )[/color][/QUOTE][quote name='Dictionary.com']information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.[/quote][size=1]From that, I would argue that scientists saying "drugs are harmful" is not propaganda. They have no agenda, they are not spreading this information to harm or help a group. They are simply reporting their findings. Sorry.

[QUOTE][color=deeppink]A person not paying attention to the road might kill somebody. Does that make driving imoral?[/color][/QUOTE]
No, but it makes not paying attention while driving 'immoral'. Likewise, driving while high doesn't make driving immoral, but driving while under the influence.

[QUOTE][color=deeppink]Making it legal would probably help subdue drug-related crime (much like re-legalizing alcohol stopped a lot of criminal behavior caused by prohibition in the US), and I personally wouldn't call prostitution immoral either. However, I know that's not a widely held opinion, and I'd rather not discuss that here.

I don't have any idea what legalizing it would do for the land value.[/color][/QUOTE] That's the problem with calling something 'immoral'. That's not the debate here, really. It's whether or not these behaviors are detrimental to yourself and society at large.

And we're not here to debate the pros and cons of legalization either, but that would be fun.[/size]

[Nerdsy]

[QUOTE=NIKI12345]

Actually its a oppinion. A propaganda is a way to convice others to do something. No its like a choice of many other oppinion choices like bangwagon effect or scaretatic. All different ways to show a opinion. Just to let you know.[/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]What? Beyond "a propaganda is a way to convice others to do something", I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Yes, a lot of what Rachmaninoff said was opinion, but opinions are propaganda too.

Retribution, if you notice, there is more than one definition there.

[quote name='dictionary.com']The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause. [/quote]

[quote name='dictionary.com']Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda. [/quote]

[quote name='dictionary.com]']information that is spread for the purpose of promoting some cause [/quote]

[color=deeppink]As for the definition you used, no, scientists saying that doesn't make it propaganda. But people posting about what scientists say sure as hell does. : p

From there, the only point of contention would be "spread widely", but that just means it falls much under the next definition, "The deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc."[/color]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']No, but it makes not paying attention while driving 'immoral'. Likewise, driving while high doesn't make driving immoral, but driving while under the influence.[/size][/quote]

[color=deeppink]That's pretty much my point. Responsibility is the key factor when determining morality here, at least to me.

As for detrimental effects to the society at large... I recall opium being legal and very popular way back when. Society didn't seem to suffer to greatly, although there were frequent addictions. that, of course, can be said of something like sleeping pills or pain relivers, something very commonly used in societies.

I can't say what would happen if we suddenly said, "Hey! Opiums legal now, get as much as you want!" But there is a historical [strike]example[/strike] piece of propaganda that shows it working. [/color]

[AzureWolf]

[QUOTE][color=deeppink]My argument deals entirely with the morality of doing drugs. I'm perfectly fine with laws being made to keep save people from harm.

Hell, I'd go as far as to say that it's immoral not to step in and save someone from harming themselves. But I don't think that self-harm is immoral.[/color][/QUOTE][COLOR=maroon]That's cool. But then, I have to ask: what's your stance on suicide? Shouldn't be done but not immoral? IMO, it's immoral, that's why I ask. ^^[/COLOR]

[TherapySessions]

[quote name='NIKI12345']TherapySessions you just can't be going around saying other people are wrong okay [/quote]

Well you asked who disagrees with drinking and drugs, did you just expect everyone to punch the air and high five each other, saying how much they agree with you? I don't disagree with people using recreational drugs at all - that was my opinion, most of the other stuff was fact which I generally backed up with links to reputable sources, so in the interests of stopping the spread of misinformation, I'm perfectly within my rights to tell people that they are wrong.

Can people have spiritual experiences on drugs? Yes
Can drugs change people for the better? Yes
Are psychedelics addictive? No
Could they prove very beneficial in the medical field? Yes

etc

Rachmaninoff - that is because you asked for the evidence documented on the internet, which I provided. I did not form my ideas from that, they are contrived from personal experience inwhich the likes of MDMA and LSD have changed me and many people that I have met for the better. If you had evidence to the contrary of what I provided, then you would have contradicted it, therefore the onus is on you to disprove what I am saying.

I'm not expecting you to suddenly jump for joy and rush round everyone know saying that someone on the internet has came up with a solution for all our problems, just consider that everything you read regarding drugs is not neccesarily true and that a reporter does not neccesarily have any idea what they are writing about. If you really wanted I could find examples of misinformation/complete and utter lies in news reports, but I can imagine it would be pretty futile for anyone that would rather look through their rose tinted glasses.

Retribution - which points that he made are supported by the scientific community as fact? Would you like to compile a list?

Also, which drugs in your opinion cause people to act violently whilst they are on them? Is this just an assumption that you have made for "drugs in general" or do you actually have some reputable evidence from the "scientific community" to support the "fact" that ordinarily non-violent people will lose their sense of judgement to the point of becoming irational and violent? The only drugs that you might have any sort of argument for are alcohol and cocaine - out of all the people I know that do drugs none of them have become violent while on them, as they are absolutely sound people anyway and lack of judgment has nothing to do with violent tendencies.

The idea that drugs attract crime and prostitution is a complete cliche, although a hilarious one at that. What on earth makes you think that drugs would push people to such extremes, considering the majority of drug users are not addicted and holding down jobs? I'm sure that some people who are addicted to drugs would infact turn to these extremes, but I'd say that would depend on the lifestyle you lived and type of drugs you did.

AzureWolf - The effects of LSD themselves do not stay with people forever, although the things that you can learn or experience can. If you are reffering to flashbacks, then flashbacks are something that can happen to anyone who has a traumatic experience and are not just confined to drugs (such as lsd). I believe that the controversy involving LSD flashbacks is attributed to the propaganda back in the 60's that stateed that LSD will stay in your spinal cord waiting to be triggered at any moment later in life, leading to a flashback. It is not true as LSD is thought to leave your body in a matter of hours.

indifference - Erowid.org is possibly the largest non-bias drug resource on the planet, I have also heard of it being used by medical professionals (where did you hear this, just interested - do you work in the medical industry?), it's not at all suprising seeing as there is little else with that scale of information on various chemicals. It's a website which I'd imagine has saved many lives due to it's factual information and harm reduction mission. Something which government "down with the kids" style websites like talktofrank are not capable of (massive amounts of downright dangerous misinformation).

[James]

[font=arial]To answer the question posed by the OP, no, I don't disagree with drinking and drugs.

I tend to think that drugs (both legal and illegal) are relatively neutral things. By that I mean, it's easy to "blame drugs" or "blame drinking" and we always seem to have this habit of avoiding personal responsibility. If I'm going to blame [i]anyone[/i] for drug or alcohol abuse, I would definitely blame the abuser. There are always grey areas with these sorts of things though.

My general feeling is "everything in moderation". If you want to consume a substance (whether legal or illegal), it is up to you to do so in a responsible manner. And if you [i]aren't[/i] responsible, well...you have to really ensure that you are doing harm only to yourself and nobody else. Afterall, others haven't made the choice to participate.

I think this is as true with alcohol as it is with any other drug/substance. It's possible to be responsible and to consume in moderation, with a reasonable understanding of one's own limits.

As far as the morality aspect goes...I would agree with Nerdsy. I don't find drugs to be "immoral" - drugs themselves are neutral. The immorality comes in when people steal to access drugs and so on. But immorality and drugs need not go hand-in-hand without question; as I said above, responsible use of almost any drug (including alcohol) is absolutely possible and I have no issues with responsible use.

Edit: Having said all of the above, it would be worth noting that nobody should assume drugs are harmless or that they do not have significant involvement in many of society's ills. However, as I said...I don't think drugs themselves are necessarily to blame all the time - it's just too easy to scapegoat and ignore personal responsibility. [/font]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

TherapySessions you listed sites that you consider to be reputable, something that is still subjective, as you believe the facts they present are actually true. You are accusing Rachmaninoff of looking through rose tinted glasses when you yourself are doing the same thing.

Instead of assuming others are lying, take the time to look up medical reports on the research done about the negative effects of illegal drugs, indifference already provided two links to that effect. You are consistently taking the stance of you are right and everyone else is wrong. Rachmaninoff does not need to disprove what you are saying; any kid with a simple search on the Internet can find information that contradicts what you are saying. Only instead of insisting on arguing he wisely saw that the two of you disagree and left it at that.

You keep saying psychedelic drugs are safe, why don?t you tell us which drugs are and give us some actual medical facts instead of linking to a page full of people who have used LSD telling us how much it ?Opened up my mind and heart to the world.? Hardly what one would consider scientific proof that such things are not harmful. Or a creditable source of information for that matter either.

Take the rose tinted glasses off your own eyes hun and start researching instead of giving us the stance that it causes spiritual experiences or changes someone for the better. Or saying it is beneficial for the medial field when you yourself are not a doctor.

It?s pointless to debate something with someone who keeps insisting news reports are full of nothing but misinformation and lies. You have already decided that you are correct. And I see Rachmaninoff?s point in that it?s a waste of time to even debate this.

I for one do not agree with illegal drugs. I?ve been around long enough to have seen quite a few news reports in my time, specials and documentaries on the negative effects, in addition to seeing what it has done to friends and their families. Regardless of the information present in either the news or medical reports. One thing is crystal clear to me and that is illegal drugs need to stay illegal.

One other thing, like Rachmaninoff, I too am finished with this discussion. It is not my job to look up the information for someone when it is so easy to find. It's simple, I do not agree with illegal drugs. And I've yet to see anything in this thread that would change my mind.

[Guest NIKI12345]

[QUOTE=Aaryanna_Mom]TherapySessions you listed sites that you consider to be reputable, something that is still subjective, as you believe the facts they present are actually true. You are accusing Rachmaninoff of looking through rose tinted glasses when you yourself are doing the same thing.

Instead of assuming others are lying, take the time to look up medical reports on the research done about the negative effects of illegal drugs, indifference already provided two links to that effect. You are consistently taking the stance of you are right and everyone else is wrong. Rachmaninoff does not need to disprove what you are saying; any kid with a simple search on the Internet can find information that contradicts what you are saying. Only instead of insisting on arguing he wisely saw that the two of you disagree and left it at that.

You keep saying psychedelic drugs are safe, why don?t you tell us which drugs are and give us some actual medical facts instead of linking to a page full of people who have used LSD telling us how much it ?Opened up my mind and heart to the world.? Hardly what one would consider scientific proof that such things are not harmful. Or a creditable source of information for that matter either.

Take the rose tinted glasses off your own eyes hun and start researching instead of giving us the stance that it causes spiritual experiences or changes someone for the better. Or saying it is beneficial for the medial field when you yourself are not a doctor.

It?s pointless to debate something with someone who keeps insisting news reports are full of nothing but misinformation and lies. You have already decided that you are correct. And I see Rachmaninoff?s point in that it?s a waste of time to even debate this.

I for one do not agree with illegal drugs. I?ve been around long enough to have seen quite a few news reports in my time, specials and documentaries on the negative effects, in addition to seeing what it has done to friends and their families. Regardless of the information present in either the news or medical reports. One thing is crystal clear to me and that is illegal drugs need to stay illegal.

One other thing, like Rachmaninoff, I too am finished with this discussion. It is not my job to look up the information for someone when it is so easy to find. It's simple, I do not agree with illegal drugs. And I've yet to see anything in this thread that would change my mind.[/QUOTE]

Thats what I tried to say and I knew that not everybody would be givng highfives because you can't do that to people if your on the computer. Yes people will have a opinion I knew that, but I didn't wnat one person saying he is right and saying everyone else was wrong TherapySessions. That is what I ment and now that you have crushed my feelings I will cry to myself on how wrong I am and how only the [B]COMPUTER HAS ALL THE ANSWER!!![/B] Thank you for showing me the light TherapySessions. Now I'm out of this mess. :animeangr

[Ol' Fighter]

[quote name='NIKI12345]Thats what I tried to say and I knew that not everybody would be givng highfives because you can't do that to people if your on the computer. Yes people will have a opinion I knew that, but I didn't wnat one person saying he is right and saying everyone else was wrong TherapySessions. That is what I ment and now that you have crushed my feelings I will cry to myself on how wrong I am and how only the [B]COMPUTER HAS ALL THE ANSWER!!![/B'] Thank you for showing me the light TherapySessions. Now I'm out of this mess. :animeangr[/quote]

I know this is completly off topic but isn't funny how contradicting the person with the name "TherapySessions" turned out to be you made a person cry :laugh: .

[James]

[font=arial]NIKI, there's no need to get upset about it. I think you should be proud that this thread has spurred a lively discussion that really hasn't gone downhill...the thread is on a good run, don't drag it down at this point. That'd be a big shame.[/font]

[Guest NIKI12345]

[quote name='James][font=arial']NIKI, there's no need to get upset about it. I think you should be proud that this thread has spurred a lively discussion that really hasn't gone downhill...the thread is on a good run, don't drag it down at this point. That'd be a big shame.[/font][/quote]

Yeah thanks I really needed that. Well back to drugs yes there are good ones and bad ones. The ones the doctors decribe you are ment to help you not for you to abuse them and hurt yourself more. No the computer doesn't have all the answers I checked. I typed and my name and asked what my future was going to be like and they said [B]No info found try search again. So happy joy the computer was wrong!!!!!![/B] Well back to topic when I look at drugs not all reasherch has been confirmed. Its easy to say you have all the answers but its harder to prove them right. There still are drugs out there that no one has solved completly and people are different so one drug can make many people act different. Thats the hard part about this world. One cure for cnacer might work on mice but that doesn't tell us that it will work on people. That is my thought. :animesmil

[James]

[font=arial]When you say the computer doesn't have all the answers, are you talking about the Internet?

I don't think anyone here would debate that drugs (both legal and illegal) can have serious negative effects on a person's health. In my view that is almost a non-issue. I think the question is really more specifically about whether or not people will tolerate drug use in any form (even if it responsible use is factored into the equation). There are some people who will disapprove of drugs and alcohol regardless, but there are others (like me) who feel that it comes down to the individual and the specific circumstances.

Also it depends how far you take the word "drug". I assume you mean "illegal drugs". But even legal drugs - probably most commonly legal drugs - can cause huge negative impacts on society. I'd venture to say that alcohol has been a factor in far more domestic violence than any hard illegal drug, for example. So there are various ways to look at the issue.[/font]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='AzureWolf][COLOR=maroon']That's cool. But then, I have to ask: what's your stance on suicide? Shouldn't be done but not immoral? IMO, it's immoral, that's why I ask. ^^[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=deeppink]I haven't really made up my mind about suicide. At the moment, I'd say it's morally neutral.

On the whole, I'd say that it should be stopped. After all, if everyone started killing themselves, society would be decimated. However, I can also think of some cases where I don't feel anyone should have a right to stop it. Those mostly involve terrible diseases, and, like drinking, people should be of a certain age before allowed to make that decision.[/color]

[Guest NIKI12345]

[QUOTE=Nerdsy][color=deeppink]I haven't really made up my mind about suicide. At the moment, I'd say it's morally neutral.

On the whole, I'd say that it should be stopped. After all, if everyone started killing themselves, society would be decimated. However, I can also think of some cases where I don't feel anyone should have a right to stop it. Those mostly involve terrible diseases, and, like drinking, people should be of a certain age before allowed to make that decision.[/color][/QUOTE]

Everything has a point. If you over take drugs thas your falute and then there are people who actually know what they are doing and they are not doing it in a way that it could harm them. There are just way to mny things I could go on about drugs, but its quite hard. Its really the persons choice, but here is the thing you can take drugs all you wnat but if any anybody gets hurt because of you. Well we will have a hard time. Just be careful and stay away from drugs that aren't allowed. If animals aren't eating it then you shouldn't either.

Man what I just said might get me a few problems. :animedepr

[James]

[font=arial]I just think you have to be careful not to impose yourself on others - as long as you watch that, it shouldn't be an issue. Being anti-drugs is totally fine and everyone has the right to make that decision...and there is no harm informing people about the dangers of drugs. I just think people generally don't appreciate being told what they "must" or "have to" do. It really boils down to personal responsibility once again.[/font]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='NIKI12345']Just be careful and stay away from drugs that aren't allowed. If animals aren't eating it then you shouldn't either.[/quote]

[color=deeppink]Is it [i]only[/i] illegal drugs you're worrying about? Like I mentioned ealier, my ribcage was almost broken by someone on a perfectly legal drug. Aside from that, he threw things at me, and nearly fell into a fire himself. Not a fun night.

Further, I can think of at least one other legal drug that is very dangerous health-wise, although I am admittedly using a lose interpretation of the word "drug." I'm also a bit unsure about whether or not it's illegal to ingest it, but I'm sure you get my point.

Illegal drugs aren't the only dangerous ones, m'dear. And alternatively, legal drugs aren't the only "safe" ones.

For the record, I don't do drugs. Hell, I'm even wary about using advil or something like that.[/color]

[DeadSeraphim]

[QUOTE=NIKI12345]Everything has a point. If you over take drugs thas your falute and then there are people who actually know what they are doing and they are not doing it in a way that it could harm them. There are just way to mny things I could go on about drugs, but its quite hard. Its really the persons choice, but here is the thing you can take drugs all you wnat but if any anybody gets hurt because of you. Well we will have a hard time. Just be careful and stay away from drugs that aren't allowed. If animals aren't eating it then you shouldn't either.

Man what I just said might get me a few problems. :animedepr[/QUOTE]
[size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]Animals aren't eating cheese. Animals aren't eating baloney. Animals aren't eating icecream. Animals aren't eating hamburgers. Animals aren't eating bread. Animals aren't eating McDonalds. Animals aren't eating chocolate...

I guess what I'm trying to say here is [i]animals aren't a standard by which humans should measure their diet[/i].[/font][/color][/size]

[Baron Samedi]

[quote name='NIKI12345']Yeah the battle is over because of Rachmaninoff. Thank you. I posted this thread to get opinions not someone to fight against them. I didn't want someone to say **This is the right answer and everyone else is wrong** So I'm glad its over thanks again Rachmaninoff[/quote]
[SIZE=1]It's lively discussion, not the burgeoning of lifelong enmity.[/SIZE]

[Juke Box Hero]

[size=2]

Ok NIK, as I've read many others saying, there is zero doubt that certain substances cause negative health effects. Some of these, as I understand, do so whether used once or constantly, such as methamphetamines or heroin. However, as you have never drank, and I'm willing to bet have never smoked, you have no perspective or understanding on the pleasures both alchohol and nicotine offer to those who can enjoy them in moderation.

Little I have encountered in my life can match the pleasure of some Smithwick's Irish or Killian's Red over cigarette or cigar with the crew. It's total body pleasure, and I find it incredibly difficult to "disagree" with drinking and drugs. And it seems rather silly of you to make these bold, sweeping statements without becoming informed of the positive effects of these things when used by mature human beings. I'd advise you to gather some more worldly knowledge before making and proclaiming your world view.

[/size]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

Hmm?And here I said I was finished, but I guess I?m not. [quote name='James][font=arial]I think the question is really more specifically about whether or not people will tolerate drug use in any form (even if it responsible use is factored into the equation). There are some people who will disapprove of drugs and alcohol regardless, but there are others (like me) who feel that it comes down to the individual and the specific circumstances.[/font][/QUOTE]As much as I disapprove of drug and alcohol use, I want people to understand that I do not advocate removing alcohol altogether. And even drugs if properly used, as there are lots of over the counter medications one can get as well as prescriptions that are also beneficial as well. [QUOTE=James][font=arial']Also it depends how far you take the word "drug". I assume you mean "illegal drugs". But even legal drugs - probably most commonly legal drugs - can cause huge negative impacts on society. I'd venture to say that alcohol has been a factor in far more domestic violence than any hard illegal drug, for example. So there are various ways to look at the issue.[/font][/quote]I completely and totally agree, some of the very drugs I take for my health are a double edged deal in that they can have a very negative effect and often have. Though that sort of ties into why I agree with certain drugs being illegal. To the best of my understanding, most of them have side effects and issues that even a trained professional is uncomfortable with the idea of dispensing them to a patient. Something my own doctor has mentioned in regards to the push to legalize some of the illegal drugs for medical purposes.

I haven?t read up on it in a while, so I don?t know if it was later proven wrong. But I do remember reading that it was believed that alcohol as well as illegal drugs was a contributing factor to battering. That certain individuals were just fine with their spouse and children unless they became drunk or high. I remember the report indicating that for some who abused others, they only did so when other outside influences were present. Though I also remember it stating that plenty of such abusers did so without any drugs or alcohol in their system.

The easiest way for me to follow this is to have faith that officials are at least doing their best to keep things that are not safe out of the average person?s grasp. I know the system is not perfect, but if they were to turn around and legalize something like Marijuana I would not fight it. Because if I am honest, I don?t know enough to make that call. Though I wouldn?t let anyone smoke that on my property regardless of the law. But then I don?t allow smoking or drinking either.

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='NIKI12345']Yeah the battle is over because of Rachmaninoff. Thank you. I posted this thread to get opinions not someone to fight against them. I didn't want someone to say **This is the right answer and everyone else is wrong** So I'm glad its over thanks again Rachmaninoff[/quote]What in the world are you talking about? All I did was decide to not continue a debate when it's obvious neither one of us agreed with the other person's point of view. It wasn't even a fight to begin with.

Everyone has their own opinion on things and as Aaryanna_Mom already pointed out, it's easy to find information that supports both views so I've no interest in continuing it especially when neither side is going to change their stance. To continue and be pigheaded along the lines of you are wrong and I am right is kind of pointless. So the final word is we disagree and lets just leave it at that. At least that's the way I saw it. lol

All it means is that both of us are firm in our opinion on what we think on the subject, nothing more. And certainly nothing to get upset over. ;)

[pooperson]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][SIZE=1]Oh my... here comes my analysis.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='NIKI12345']If you over take drugs thas your falute and then there are people who actually know what they are doing and they are not doing it in a way that it could harm them.[/quote]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue][SIZE=1]
However, there are also accidents. People might take a drug unknowingly - not because someone told them to, but because of their own naivety or simply a mistake. Example. I had my inhaler, and I accidently OD'ed... a LOT. That was crazy bad. But it wasn't my fault... I had never used one before. What I'm trying to say is that if you take any drug misuse situation and label it bad... well, that's a pretty naive route to take. Accidents happen.
Then there is the situation of OD'ing on a drug because you WANT to or maybe even NEED to. Drugs are not an easy thing to stop doing. Rehab can fail, and the addiction can still be there. Yes, it is more than likely the person's fault in the first place, but on occasion they just can't help it. I'm not saying it's right... I'm just saying things happen.
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[quote name='NIKI12345']There are just way to mny things I could go on about drugs, but its quite hard.[/quote]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue][SIZE=1]
Same here. Same with any argument. You do have to keep in mind, however, that yes, this is an argument. If you say something, someone [I]will [/I]say something back. No need to feel offended, but you are stating your opinions - or facts - and they are stating theirs.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='NIKI12345']Its really the persons choice, but here is the thing you can take drugs all you wnat but if any anybody gets hurt because of you. Well we will have a hard time. [/quote]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue][SIZE=1]
It most definitely is the person's choice. And people - innocent people - [I]do [/I]get hurt. It's sad, but that's also why we have laws. Lots and lots of laws. But there are also the legal drugs, as [B]Nerdsy [/B]said, that can hurt.
[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[quote name='NIKI12345']Just be careful and stay away from drugs that aren't allowed. [/quote]
[SIZE=1][COLOR=RoyalBlue]
I was hoping to stay away from this, but... wtf? What do you mean by "drugs that aren't allowed"? Simply illegal drugs? Because according to what you seem to have been saying, all drugs - save prescribed ones - are bad... at least that's what I'm getting from all this. Am I wrong? Also, to back up a statement such as "Its [sic] really the persons [sic] choice" with a command seems a tad bit contradictory... or maybe I'm reading into it too much.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[quote name='NIKI12345']If animals aren't eating it then you shouldn't either. [/quote]
[COLOR=RoyalBlue][SIZE=1]
Oh wow. I disagree. Animals aren't eating a lot of things... but at the same time, they're also eating grass. Just read [B]DeadSeraphim[/B]'s post. I agree with it. [I]Fantastique![/I]


Long story short, I think that in your argument you should be a tad bit more open-minded... a lot of the things you say CAN be backed up but can also be argued, which is probably why there is such a huge argument.

Oh, and don't let internet disputes get to you... It's just the intern3tz lawlz ;][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Guest NIKI12345]

Ok thanks for the opinion. And your right I have not taking drugs but I have seen the effects from my friends who do them oh that includs drinking I have never drank I'm under age. So for now I'm just going to listen to other peoples thoughts. Oh yeah I have taking pills that the doctor has decribed me when I get sick, but thats it. Later.

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][quote name='TherapySessions']indifference - Erowid.org is possibly the largest non-bias drug resource on the planet, I have also heard of it being used by medical professionals (where did you hear this, just interested - do you work in the medical industry?), it's not at all suprising seeing as there is little else with that scale of information on various chemicals. It's a website which I'd imagine has saved many lives due to it's factual information and harm reduction mission. Something which government "down with the kids" style websites like talktofrank are not capable of (massive amounts of downright dangerous misinformation).[/quote]It may be non-biased as far as factual information goes, but the links you provided to testimonials are far from being non-biased. One can hardly take the word of someone taking a drug and saying how it made them feel as any form of scientific or reliable source for proving such drugs are harmless.

As for my source, I work with victims of domestic violence where it?s estimated anywhere from 10 to 20 percent of all battering cases are made worse by drug and alcohol abuse. Something I have seen with my own eyes. This isn?t recent since it?s hard to get reliable data for this type of thing since so many centers keep their files confidential. But here?s an online article that brief addresses the issue of drug abuse being linked to battering. [URL=http://www.womanabuseprevention.com/html/substance_abuse.html ]Article[/URL] And to be clear, it is understood that the drug or alcohol doesn?t make them batter, but rather it contributes to the problem making it worse since plenty of abusers out there will still do so without any drugs or alcohol in their system.

As for the bit about professionals using it, I?ve read different articles over the years, like this one: [URL=http://www.laweekly.com/general/features/dont-get-high-without-it/1739/ ]Erowind[/URL] where they talk about the pros and cons of Erowid.

It wasn?t a compliment, but rather a stark reminder that if the drugs were so harmless, they wouldn?t need to search for information on how to treat idiots who haven?t a clue as to what they are doing when they experiment with illegal substances or legal ones for that matter. Which is why so many of them are illegal in the first place, as most people do not have the training or knowledge needed to safely use them. And just reading about it on a site doesn?t cut it.[/COLOR]

[TherapySessions]

[QUOTE=Aaryanna_Mom]TherapySessions you listed sites that you consider to be reputable, something that is still subjective, as you believe the facts they present are actually true. You are accusing Rachmaninoff of looking through rose tinted glasses when you yourself are doing the same thing.

Instead of assuming others are lying, take the time to look up medical reports on the research done about the negative effects of illegal drugs, indifference already provided two links to that effect. You are consistently taking the stance of you are right and everyone else is wrong. Rachmaninoff does not need to disprove what you are saying; any kid with a simple search on the Internet can find information that contradicts what you are saying. Only instead of insisting on arguing he wisely saw that the two of you disagree and left it at that.
[/QUOTE]

Like I've already said, erowid is the largest resource of non-bias drug information on the internet, believe me there is nothing so extensive and it is well respected amongst drug communities all around the internet and also amongst professionals in the outside world. It provides correct doseage information, details of substance deaths, lists of positive, neutral and negative effects, LD50's (percentage at which most people die) and provides warnings if required whilst keeping a focus on harm reduction. If you think that something important is missing, why don't you contact them and get it added seeing as users can submit whatever they like. Can you point me in the direction of a more useful resource?

Maps provides research done by liscenced scientists into neurological and physical effects of certain drugs and again is arguably the largest resource on the internet in this particular field.

The links that indifference provided did nothing to disprove anything that I said, infact it was completely non-related. What does someone being stupid enough to do drugs then drive a car have to do with any of the points that I have made? Also "any kid" can disprove what points I made exactly? Which in particular - and why don't you?

From that website, seeing as I've been talking about drugs like LSD in particular:

"One study showed that the pure form of LSD (administered under medical supervision) did not cause any fetal abnormalities or an increased risk of miscarriage. However, there have been reports of congenital abnormalities in the babies of women who use LSD and other drugs. Whether these can be directly attributed to the drugs is uncertain because most women who use LSD or amphetamines also use alcohol, other drugs, or smoke - therefore studies vary in the effects they report. Use of more than one recreational drug, however, seems to increase the risk of birth defects"

So basically they found that it had no effect on children whatsoever, however people that did drugs that are KNOWN to cause birth defects and also happened to do LSD gave birth to a child with a birth defect. What a suprise. However, this is irrelevant to any of the points that I have made, what's people being thick enough to take drugs when driving or pregnant got to do with anything?

The reason I am taking the stance that I am right and (most of you) are wrong is because none of you have been able to contradict a single point I've made. I've also backed up what I've said with links (and errr yes thanks, I research drugs quite often), yet people refuse to believe that someone might actually be telling the truth.

[QUOTE=Aaryanna_Mom]You keep saying psychedelic drugs are safe, why don?t you tell us which drugs are and give us some actual medical facts instead of linking to a page full of people who have used LSD telling us how much it ?Opened up my mind and heart to the world.? Hardly what one would consider scientific proof that such things are not harmful. Or a creditable source of information for that matter either.

Take the rose tinted glasses off your own eyes hun and start researching instead of giving us the stance that it causes spiritual experiences or changes someone for the better. Or saying it is beneficial for the medial field when you yourself are not a doctor.

It?s pointless to debate something with someone who keeps insisting news reports are full of nothing but misinformation and lies. You have already decided that you are correct. And I see Rachmaninoff?s point in that it?s a waste of time to even debate this.
[/QUOTE]

Actually I said that [I]some[/I] psychedelics were [I]physically[/I] safe in terms of direct effects but that they do not come without their risks. Also, the link inwhich people were talking about how LSD "opened up their mind and heart to the world" was quite clearly a link in reponse to a member of this forum denying someone elses subjective experience inwhich they said LSD changed them for the better, it had nothing to do with "proving that such things were not harmful". Where did you get that idea from?

So with respect to that:

LSD is nontoxic to the human body. Nobody has ever died from physical complications as a result of LSD even considering people have taken massive doses.

References:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD[/url]

[QUOTE]Although LSD is generally [b]considered nontoxic[/b], it may temporarily impair the ability to make sensible judgments and understand common dangers, thus making the user susceptible to accidents and personal injury.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.thegooddrugsguide.com/lsd/faq.htm#01[/url]

[QUOTE]LSD is one of the least toxic chemicals known to man. It is less poisonous than aspirin and vitamin C.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.chemsoc.org/ExemplarChem/entries/2004/bristol_rosling/My%20Webs/LSD.HTM[/url]

(University of Bristol)

[QUOTE]Lysergic acid diethylamide, more commonly known as LSD, is a non-toxic, non-addictive molecule which mimics serotonin in the brain.[/QUOTE]

I could find pretty much similiar stuff for Mescaline, DMT, Psilocybin mushrooms etc

I do not need to be a doctor to say whether or not something could be beneficial in the medical field, considering doctors are saying it and doing the research themselves.

A lot of drug related news reports are full of misinformation but I don't see what that has at all to do with debating with me seeing as one person has linked to one non-related news report that made a pretty common sense statement. Why would it matter seeing as absolutely no other news reports have been linked to and I wasn't denying the glaring obviousness of the one that was.

[quote name='NIKI12345']Thats what I tried to say and I knew that not everybody would be givng highfives because you can't do that to people if your on the computer.[/quote]

That is absolute sarcasm of the highest order. Well done.

Do people not actively encourage serious debates on this site then? It's not as if the first couple of pages of this thread had a lot of substance. No offence, like.

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[quote name='indifference][COLOR=DarkRed'] One can hardly take the word of someone taking a drug and saying how it made them feel as any form of scientific or reliable source for proving such drugs are harmless. [/COLOR][/quote]

errr right, but I've been over this a few times now as I never said it did.

If you read the post in which I posted that link, I clearly said that it was provided to the contrary of someone stating drugs like LSD couldn't change people for the better.

It had nothing to do with how harmful it can be, I've covered that in other posts.

[QUOTE=indifference][COLOR=DarkRed]
It wasn?t a compliment, but rather a stark reminder that if the drugs were so harmless, they wouldn?t need to search for information on how to treat idiots who haven?t a clue as to what they are doing when they experiment with illegal substances or legal ones for that matter. Which is why so many of them are illegal in the first place, as most people do not have the training or knowledge needed to safely use them. And just reading about it on a site doesn?t cut it.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Drug use can be far from harmless when in the wrong hands, there is always a risk, however websites like erowid when used properly as a cornerpoint for people to research their doses and know of any possible complications and interactions is a huge step in the right direction for harm reduction.

If drug use was completly safe half of erowid wouldn't need to exist.
[INDENT][SIZE=1][COLOR=RoyalBlue][B]TherapySessions[/B], I've merged your two posts together, if you wish to add more simply use the edit button located in the lower right hand corner of your post, do not double post. If you have any questions feel free to pm myself or another member of the staff. ~SunfallE[/COLOR][/SIZE][/INDENT]