Ingrained fears?

[Engel]

[color=darkslategray][size=1]Many classic horror icons share common characteristics. Pale skin, dark, sunken eyes, elongated faces, sharp teeth, razor claws and the like.

These images inspire horror and revulsion in many, and with good reason. The characteristics shared by these faces are imprinted in the human mind.

Many things frighten humans instinctively. The fear is natural, and does not need to be reinforced in order to terrify. The fears are species-wide, stemming from dark times in the past when lightning could mean the burning of your tree home, thunder could be the approaching gallops of a stampede, predators could hide in darkness, and heights could make poor footing lethal.

The question you have to ask yourself is this:
What happened, deep in the hidden eras before history began, that could effect the entire human race so evenly as to give the entire species a deep, instinctual, and lasting fear of pale beings with dark, sunken eyes, razor sharp teeth, and elongated faces?[/size][/color]

[DeadSeraphim]

[size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]...umm, have you never seen a decomposing corpse? They're pretty pale, the eyes are sunken really bad, they're emaciated so their faces appear longer, and the gums rotting away makes the teeth appear longer and sharper. It's a manifestation of fear of death.[/font][/color][/size]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Engel][color=darkslategray][size=1]The question you have to ask yourself is this:
What happened, deep in the hidden eras before history began, that could effect the entire human race so evenly as to give the entire species a deep, instinctual, and lasting fear of pale beings with dark, sunken eyes, razor sharp teeth, and elongated faces?[/size][/color][/QUOTE]
[size=1]A fear is not inherent. It's conditioned into us. If a baby were to have only positive and happy experiences with creatures having sharp teeth and pale skin, they would be conditioned to believe that things fitting that schema would be similarly pleasant.

Basically, we associate the creature you mention with fear/danger because of our previous experience with that creature.[/size]

[TheResplendent]

[QUOTE=Engel][color=darkslategray][size=1]Many classic horror icons share common characteristics. Pale skin, dark, sunken eyes, elongated faces, sharp teeth, razor claws and the like.

These images inspire horror and revulsion in many, and with good reason. The characteristics shared by these faces are imprinted in the human mind.

Many things frighten humans instinctively. The fear is natural, and does not need to be reinforced in order to terrify. The fears are species-wide, stemming from dark times in the past when lightning could mean the burning of your tree home, thunder could be the approaching gallops of a stampede, predators could hide in darkness, and heights could make poor footing lethal.

The question you have to ask yourself is this:
What happened, deep in the hidden eras before history began, that could effect the entire human race so evenly as to give the entire species a deep, instinctual, and lasting fear of pale beings with dark, sunken eyes, razor sharp teeth, and elongated faces?[/size][/color][/QUOTE]

[FONT=Tahoma]The fact that this particular appearence is deviant from the kind of appearence we as humans have come to accept as normal or ideal. It's often said people fear what they do not know, this fits in with that concept as well. They see something that strikes them as odd because it doesn't satisfy their innate need for comfort. It's exactly the history of getting used to a shallow amount of certain kinds of looks that has caused frightful feelings toward anything that defies that idea (at least in most people. Others may find it simply interesting or not be effected at all).

So it isn't necessarily a specific event that might have happened, but just over time we have grown accustomed to what chiefly can be described as "human".
With little or no interest in getting to know the details behind something that threatens their picture of perfection, humans turn to fear and apprehensiveness.[/FONT]

[Engel]

[color=darkslategray][size=1]I suppose you're right, forgive me for trying to be "deep" at 3 am in the morning with coffee in my system. And I thought I saw a documentary saying that some fears are naturally ingrained into a species. Meh.[/color][/size]

[Raina]

[quote name='Engel][color=darkslategray][size=1]And I thought I saw a documentary saying that some fears are naturally ingrained into a species. Meh.[/color'][/size][/quote][COLOR=Blue]I think you're right about ingrained fears. I mean, think about our specie's natural abilities. We can't see far into the distance like eagles. We don't have an acute sence of smell like dogs. Our hearing's not as good as rabbits. We don't always land on our feet like cats. Our teeth aren't as sharp as sharks. Our nails aren't as strong and sharp like lions. We can't see in the dark like bats (and yes I know that they don't actually "see")... And the list goes on. So I think that we humans rely on instincts to make up for our lack of natural abilities. We need tools and weapons to make up for the lack of such abilities.

And we fear "Pale skin, dark, sunken eyes, elongated faces, sharp teeth, razor claws and the like." because we think that we are inferior and weaker. "Pale skin, dark, sunken eyes" means that this creature lives in the dark, so must have the ability to see well in the dark, like bats. "Elongated faces" resembles the elongated faces of dogs, which give them their acute sense of smell. "Sharp teeth" of sharks. "Razor claws" like lions.

If we were to fight a creature mentioned above, without the use of weapons or tools, would we survive? There is no way that I would... So we humans must fear this creature because we are afraid to die. And this statement only applies to those that are afraid of this creature.

Well, that's what I think... I'm not sure if I made much sense... Sorry. :animeswea [/COLOR]

[Sara]

[quote name='DeadSeraphim][size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]...umm, have you never seen a decomposing corpse? [/font][/color'][/size][/quote][color=#b0000b][size=1]*uncomfortably*

You've seen decomposing corpses?[/size][/color]

[Hanabishi Recca]

[quote name='Engel][color=darkslategray][size=1]The question you have to ask yourself is this: What happened, deep in the hidden eras before history began, that could effect the entire human race so evenly as to give the entire species a deep, instinctual, and lasting fear of pale beings with dark, sunken eyes, razor sharp teeth, and elongated faces?[/size'][/color][/quote]

Well, me being a Christian, I believe that Satan made us have fear in some ways or another. He made us have anything bad. All Satan wants is to steal, kill, and destroy. Theres nothing else. I know some people have been frightend that they won't be able to pay the bills or their children have been afraid that they would go homeless. I've been there. I do believe that people need to fight that fear because other way, what are they going to do? Sit there and lose?

Satan has been working with human beings for a long time now. So, he knows what can scare us. He knows how our minds work (most of the time). Unless we use some thoughts that are positive. His job is to make us fail. With most people he wins.

I love this thread. I have not one idea why. I just do. Maybe its because everyone has been scared before. I know I have. I've even been scared for about two days. Because of my fear that I would be taken away from my Mother. I bet that most of you would have been afraid if you were young and hearing that your Mother didn't have enough money to pay the bills and the rent. I sure was. Thats just myself though, I guess not everyone would be scared of that.

Dae

[Starwind]

The only thing I can think of is perhaps a fear of some form of predator. The claws and fangs are easily explained by this, but the pale skin and sunken eyes are something quite different.

It is possible that it could signify illness or even injury, something else man has always avoided. Imparticularly illness stricks me as a likely culprit since paling of the skin can be a fairly typical syptom in many diseases, while sunken eyes could have arisen from bags under the eyes caused from lack of sleep, another fairly common symptom of illness. Ones skin can also turn pale and eyes discolored if you've lost significant amounts of blood.

In the end, I think they all stem from the universal fear of impending death.

[Guest Phaedrus]

It is not death we fear, but the fear of death which we fear. It is within the unknown that paranoia and madness manifests itself, and in turn fear breeds upon that which we cannot see and know, harkening madnesss and paranoia to degrees of insanity. Fear is a survival instinct, instilled in us due to the system of enthalpy which the universe works on. It tell us to run; a fly-or-die response. However, as humans, we must conquer our fears. Fear is related to a more primitive aspect of our minds, and as the eras go by we are getting deeper and deeper into our minds and its potentialities. We must, therefore, approach the unknown and not let the fear get the best of us. At this point, running away means our extinction, and the probability of continual extistence of mankind is at greater chance if we approach that which is unknown and seek to understand it best we can. We must objectify fear itself, so that it is no stigma upon our progression and growth. Fear is, more or less, an outdated system of survival which we long ago have outstretched, and which we have yet to permanetly outstretch.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Phaedrus']It tell us to run; a fly-or-die response.[/quote]
[size=1]I believe the term would be fight-or-flight response, which is in reference more to the sympathetic nervous system.

[QUOTE]However, as humans, we must conquer our fears. Fear is related to a more primitive aspect of our minds, and as the eras go by we are getting deeper and deeper into our minds and its potentialities. We must, therefore, approach the unknown and not let the fear get the best of us. At this point, running away means our extinction, and the probability of continual extistence of mankind is at greater chance if we approach that which is unknown and seek to understand it best we can. We must objectify fear itself, so that it is no stigma upon our progression and growth. Fear is, more or less, an outdated system of survival which we long ago have outstretched, and which we have yet to permanetly outstretch.[/QUOTE]
And there's where your post faded into irrelevancy.

Again, I urge you all to understand that fear is often a learned and conditioned response. True, we fear on a primal and instinctual level where we don't have to learn, but we can also fear things as simple as a fuzzy white purse, simply due to our previous experience.[/size]

[Guest Phaedrus]

[quote name='Retribution']I believe the term would be fight-or-flight response, which is in reference more to the sympathetic nervous system.[/quote]

I believe it doesn't matter what words you use to say the same thing.

Psychology isn't the only belief structure where truth can be found, in all its sharded grains-of-sand glory.


[quote]And there's where your post faded into irrelevancy.[/quote]

Oh, it's quite relevant. Probably not to someone sleeping with their eyes closed, though.

[Sara]

[quote name='Phaedrus']I believe it doesn't matter what words you use to say the same thing. [/quote][color=#b0000b][size=1][i]Fly-or-die[/i] doesn't mean the same thing as [i]fight-or-flight[/i], though. The first implies that there is only one option for survival.[/color][/size]

[Guest Phaedrus]

[quote name='Sara][color=#b0000b][size=1][i]Fly-or-die[/i] doesn't mean the same thing as [i]fight-or-flight[/i], though. The first implies that there is only one option for survival.[/color'][/size][/quote]

And the truth is, that's all there is. Either we stay stuck on this Earth, or we ascend to the depths of the unknown. All that is left if we situate ourselves here, in security and fear of what's out there, is extinction.

But yes, you got me there ma'am. I must say, your PWNing powers are quite developed.

[Zen]

[color=darkred][size=1]

Fear of the unknown, fear of that which is different or foreign, and fear of what is not understood are the most primal fears of the human mind. Which is why racism, religious war, and the such have occured so much in human history.

Aswell, this also goes along with Retribution's explantion of 'conditioning'. If you as a human are faced with something you've never encountered, or have been conditioned against (or with the absense of), you will more than likely approach this 'thing' with caution or, in drastic (negative) cases, fear.

Dat's wut me dinks.[/color][/size]

[TheResplendent]

[QUOTE=Phaedrus]And the truth is, that's all there is. Either we stay stuck on this Earth, or we ascend to the depths of the unknown. All that is left if we situate ourselves here, in security and fear of what's out there, is extinction.

But yes, you got me there ma'am. I must say, your PWNing powers are quite developed.[/QUOTE]

[FONT=Tahoma]Looking at the bigger picture in terms of life and death, then yes. But There are plenty of decisions to be made during the course of life before our "extinction" or "ascendance" that could decide just how long we have until those points ;P.

Whether fear influenced by something tangible is a greater feeling, or fear influenced by something spiritual and psychological is, there are many ways of running from them or confronting them. Fight or Flight pretty much describes out behavior in more forms than one.[/FONT]

[Rachmaninoff]

I?m more inclined to believe that fears aren?t so much ingrained but rather learned. Retribution put it well in how we are conditioned to associate certain things as being scary.

There has been talk of fearing death, but I?m more inclined to believe that it?s a fear of the unknown and when it comes to the unknown, what happens after death is something everyone can relate to because at some point all of us are going to die. So it?s a common one in that all of us are going to go through it at one point. I believe BKstyles mentioned the unknown as well.

About the only theory I don?t really agree with is the one presented here by Hanabishi Recca:[QUOTE=Hanabishi Recca]I believe that Satan made us have fear in some ways or another. He made us have anything bad. All Satan wants is to steal, kill, and destroy. Theres nothing else. I know some people have been frightend that they won't be able to pay the bills or their children have been afraid that they would go homeless. I've been there. I do believe that people need to fight that fear because other way, what are they going to do? Sit there and lose?

Satan has been working with human beings for a long time now. So, he knows what can scare us. He knows how our minds work (most of the time). Unless we use some thoughts that are positive. His job is to make us fail. With most people he wins.[/QUOTE]For the simple reason I don?t think it?s possible for something to force one to be afraid. [strike]And because I don?t believe in religion, but that?s another topic.[/strike] If Satan were real he would strike me as someone who is supremely stupid and inept. Not someone capable of truly terrifying others.

[eleanor]

[color=dimgray] Retribution got it right, but I wouldn't say "no" to any theories of an ingrained fear for all humans. Although they would be mostly philosophical, because the only thing I can come up with is Jung's universal unconscious. Er, although that's more a literary thing.

But to be more specific:

pale beings=ghostly
dark, sunken eyes=evil
razor sharp teeth=able to injure you, or alludes to some animal beast
elongated faces= unnatural

Um, yeah.[/color]

[AzureWolf]

[QUOTE=Lunox][color=dimgray] Retribution got it right, but I wouldn't say "no" to any theories of an ingrained fear for all humans. Although they would be mostly philosophical, because the only thing I can come up with is Jung's universal unconscious. Er, although that's more a literary thing.

But to be more specific:

pale beings=ghostly
dark, sunken eyes=evil
razor sharp teeth=able to injure you, or alludes to some animal beast
elongated faces= unnatural

Um, yeah.[/color][/QUOTE][COLOR=maroon]pen's=able to do you... hehehe [/potty mouth]

There are ingrained fears, supported by the "baby + glass floor" experiment demonstrating a natural fear of unhealthy heights. Theories behind the source of such natural fears, such as Jung's, make for interesting discussion (how I'd love a psychology thread with peeps like Lunox - as well as with Koreans j/k). While we can be conditioned to face our fears and learn not to be afraid of these things, it doesn't mean they are unnatural.

Of course, I'm just repeating what Retribution has already said.

It's interesting to note that (supporting Jung's collective unconscious) as a species through time, our innate fears are shared. Freud's time had to deal with fear of hysteria, and hysteria itself. Come 1990s and 2000s, the innate fears such as hysteria seemed to have died away and made way for new scares, even though there are a lot of people in this world who have never met or interacted in any way. Hysteria simply disappeared, as did all cases of it.[/COLOR]

[eleanor]

[color=dimgray] We [i]should[/i] have some kind of psychology thread. It'd be great fun. :D

I guess this could be applied culturally as well. If you look at the typical look of a scary ghost or spirit, you basically think white, glowing, pale, they float/fly, etc. Most of these characteristics were ingrained into different cultures that had never interacted before, much as how isolated cultures have recreated the "Cinderella" story so many times.

I also found [url=http://www.goertzel.org/dynapsyc/1998/QuantumDreams.html]this site[/url] a bit interesting. It related to the topic in a way:[/color]

[i] Now, let?s look at a dream, and interpret it using some of the principles of the unconscious we have just learned. A 47 year-old male attorney was particularly troubled by this dream, and asked me to interpret it. This is an emotionally healthy man, a friend, and not a patient of mine. We will call him Frank. Frank dreamed that he was walking on the campus of his undergraduate college. All around him were men with guns, and he was very fearful that the Viet Cong (VC) were waiting in ambush. Frank had never been in Vietnam, but was in college while the war was going on in the late 1960?s, and was very active in the anti-war movement.

This dream took Frank back about 30 years. Yet, he said, it was as real in his dream as it was then. Did Frank actually go back to his old alma mater? Yes, he did, and no, he didn?t. The unconscious reality is not a reality of time and place, it is a reality of mind. For the unconscious, "Yes, he did," and, "No he didn?t," are just two ways of looking at the same thing, and that is Frank going back to his alma mater.[/i]

[color=dimgray]Just something to mull over if you're bored.[/color]

[Raina]

[COLOR=Blue]So, from the post above by Lunox, this Frank guy's ingrained fear is the Viet Cong? And him being "taken back" means "to remember"? So it's a "yes" to remembering, but a "no" to physically going back (like time travelling)? This is very deep stuff!

I totally agreee that fear could be a cultural thing. Isn't the "Pale skin, dark, sunken eyes, elongated faces, sharp teeth, razor claws and the like." a very Western take on fearful creatures? And for some reason, I'm imagining this creature to be male. Like Count Dracula or something. Isn't that a really Western ingrained fear? In Japan, a creature such as this is usually female. Why would that be?

A psychology thread? Sounds interesting. Why not make it a psychology/philosophy thread? [B]A great location for Sagittarians to unite![/B][/COLOR]

[Mythologicly]

I would also have to say the satan because hes one of the oldest fears inbeded in the human mind weather you belive in satan or not everyone knows who satan is and what he does. Also he has many forms some say horns with fangs others say wings and a tail there are many forms satan has.

[Drix D'Zanth]

To start, I think I noticed a contradiction in your post that you should probably refine in the future.
[quote name='Rachmaninoff']I?m more inclined to believe that fears aren?t so much ingrained but rather learned. Retribution put it well in how we are conditioned to associate certain things as being scary.[/quote]

Doesn't the above statement contradict the following statement(?):
[QUOTE=Rachmaninoff]
About the only theory I don?t really agree with is the one presented here by Hanabishi Recca:For the simple reason I don?t think it?s possible for something to force one to be afraid.[/QUOTE]

If you don't believe it's possible to force one to be afraid, then you refuse a vast amount of conditioning. Specifically in reference to fear-mediated responses, a severe case of anxiety is usually the unconscious consequence of an incident that may be out of the subject's control. For example, there are children who have an irrational phobia of needles because their first experiences with needles involve being restrained with little thought to assuaging any fears a child may have. Surely a case could be made for the ability (while it may not be someone's intention) to force somebody into being afraid of drowning by pushing them into the pool or afraid of loud noises by drafting them into a war?
Even if this is just a misunderstanding based on semantics, it's worth mentioning for its own merit.

Fear is a very complex question that psychologists and thinkers have tackled for a long time. Retribution's post seems lauded, and rightfully so, but it is somewhat incomplete. Research in neurochemistry and neuropsychology has given new insight into some of the fundamental mechanisms that cause us to feel the emotion we describe as "fear".

In our brain, there are two small, highly related, identical structures called the amygdalae. This region is the primary one responsible for conditioned (i.e. Pavlovian) fear responses. When we process an event through our amygdala (which has links to our perception and memory regions in the brain) it is actually associated with what is called an unconditioned stimulus. For reasons that are under continuing research, we are able to naturally react fearfully to events such as: sudden noises, sudden visions, bright visions, being unexpectedly touched, heights, sudden pain, and a recent study suggests that we have an innate ability to judge whether an object is sharp, rough, or would seem to cause pain. In anxiety disorders, the link between the amygdala and the region of the brain which produces the bodily changes we experience during fear, called the Locus Ceruleus, (sweating, fast heart rate, etc) is broken and the LC is continually stimulated and keeps provoking a paranoia whenever you even [i]think[/i] of the event that you are conditioned to fear.

We also know that the processing of hippocampal short-term memories into emotional responses such as fear does not inhibit their ability to consolidate into long term memories. This means that even an irrational fear that we can reconcile on the short term may be stored in our brains as a long-term fear. Imagine being afraid that a bee will sting you after it chases you. Your mother tells you that the bee just thought your bright clothing was a flower and you feel much better. Two months later a fly lands on your arm and your incidental glance mistakes it for a bee. You suddenly panic. Even though you felt no fear of bees within the short-term of the first situation, the memory remained stored and evoked a fear response.

We are also capable of unlearning our fears (effect habitation) if we have a functional region of the brain called the Pre-Frontal Cortex, which is primarily responsible for our ability to rationalize and produce sound judgments. Understandably, if this region is underdeveloped such as in childhood or adolescence, our fears seem much more intense and our ability to ?overcome? them is less effective.

I should stop and let people read this. I want to hear your thoughts before I get too wordy.

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Drix D'Zanth']Even if this is just a misunderstanding based on semantics, it's worth mentioning for its own merit.[/quote]Actually it?s not so much semantics as it is a poor job on my part explaining what I meant. So I?ll try to clear that up by explaining it again.

I already stated that I agree with the concept of conditioning in relation to being afraid of things. A simple example would be two children who accidentally fall off of a deck while playing and get hurt. One associates the experience with heights=pain and becomes afraid of heights and avoids the edge of the deck. Where the other child makes no association at all and doesn?t avoid it. So their fear or lack of fear is due to association. The incident isn?t something that means you will automatically be afraid. But it has the potential of you learning to be afraid of falling or heights.

I don?t believe something can make you afraid for the simple reason it?s not something that is a guarantee that if someone experiences it they will be afraid. Take Satan, the implication I run into among Christians I know is that Satan makes you afraid. But I would argue that people?s fear of Satan or other things he is suppose to have made you afraid of are merely another association.

A child grows up with their parents, extended family and even teachers at church telling them that Satan is evil and the cause of much misery and fear. So they learn to be afraid of something even though it may not exist. The idea that Satan makes you afraid would imply that the fear is there whether or not you even know he exists. And yet as you explained in your post, we?ve already identified how thought processes can lead to fears through experiences and associations. So in the end Satan didn?t make us afraid, we learned to associate him with things that are frightening.

I think this ties into our fear of the unknown, we don?t know what will happen after death, we often don?t understand why we are afraid of something, or rather we don?t remember what association triggered it. So instead we take something that is already considered evil and pin the blame on them. We are afraid because Satan made us afraid. Instead of I?m scared of lightening because when I was a child a really loud storm woke me up in the middle of the night and the flashes of light and noise were something new and unexpected and frightened me.

Satan at this point becomes a scapegoat, a figure to pin fears on. Because it?s easier to say something made you afraid instead of figuring out why you are afraid. With this you don?t have to try and understand if your fear is rational when for example you are too afraid of speaking in public when your job requires it. You just pin the blame on Satan making you afraid so you will fail and that fits neatly into the concept that failing to be brave and overcome your fears means in the end you won?t make it to heaven. When the fear could simply be that there is a cute girl at work and your really more nervous over looking foolish in front of her.

The idea that something makes you afraid is to pat, to easy. Being afraid in my opinion is far more complex and not something that happens because someone makes you afraid.

I hope that cleared up what I was trying to say.

[Drix D'Zanth]

I?m impressed Rachmaninoff, few people can pull of the consistent post quality that I?ve seen from you. I also appreciate the speedy response, I was excited to hear what you had to write and you?ve given me plenty to think about here. I think you might appreciate that I?m writing my response while enjoying our friend Sergey?s Piano Concerto No.2 in C Minor, Op.18: 1. Moderato.

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']Actually it?s not so much semantics as it is a poor job on my part explaining what I meant. So I?ll try to clear that up by explaining it again. [/quote]
Thank you. I?ll try to quote your response as coherently as possible.

[QUOTE=Rachmaninoff]
I already stated that I agree with the concept of conditioning in relation to being afraid of things. A simple example would be two children who accidentally fall off of a deck while playing and get hurt. One associates the experience with heights=pain and becomes afraid of heights and avoids the edge of the deck. Where the other child makes no association at all and doesn?t avoid it. So their fear or lack of fear is due to association. The incident isn?t something that means you will automatically be afraid. But it has the potential of you learning to be afraid of falling or heights. [/QUOTE]

That is a compelling argument, and I have no doubt it is the case for many instances of fear from childhood to adulthood. However, what intrigues me is the vast majority of fear that is simply irrational. This is because we are capable of judging circumstances irrationally, and our inability to make rational judgments is especially likely in early developmental years. I mentioned in my first post about the Prefrontal region of the brain which is responsible for the processing of judgment calls (bit of fun trivia, the Prefrontal cortex develops more slowly in men than women, women mature within their high-school years while men may take until age 25 to be fully developed! Explains a lot of behavior, right?). Let?s see if I can outline what I think is the most persuasive neurochemical explanation:

Example: you have a child who is going to bed and looks at his open closet door. Unfortunately, the inside of the closet is a black void of unknown and the child?s senses begin sending information to his underdeveloped PFC (prefrontal cortex). Rapidly, thoughts of monsters and frightening villains occupy the poor child?s mind and the PFC sends a signal to the amygdala to panic. The amygdala stops the LC (locus ceruleus) from ?cooling down? and the excited LC sends a message to the child?s pituitary gland. The message a simple one, entitled ?panic now?. The gland excites the adrenaline glands to produce chemicals, which begin raising the little scared child?s heart rate and sense of urgency. His senses are also more acute and the slightest noise continues to excite his already hyper-stimulated brain. A shoe falls loudly to the ground in the closet and the child screams. His worst fears surely have been confirmed; the monsters are coming.

[QUOTE=Rachmaninoff]
I don?t believe something can make you afraid for the simple reason it?s not something that is a guarantee that if someone experiences it they will be afraid. Take Satan, the implication I run into among Christians I know is that Satan makes you afraid. But I would argue that people?s fear of Satan or other things he is suppose to have made you afraid of are merely another association.

A child grows up with their parents, extended family and even teachers at church telling them that Satan is evil and the cause of much misery and fear. So they learn to be afraid of something even though it may not exist. The idea that Satan makes you afraid would imply that the fear is there whether or not you even know he exists. And yet as you explained in your post, we?ve already identified how thought processes can lead to fears through experiences and associations. So in the end Satan didn?t make us afraid, we learned to associate him with things that are frightening. [/QUOTE]

I agree with you entirely. While I don?t want to draw this topic into a tangential discussion of theology, I do recognize that (as far as Abrahamic religions are concerned) there may be a case for some source of evil. It?s worth noting that while Satan might be the progenitor of fear, humans are capable of perpetuating it on their own. Your account of teachers at church telling children that Satan ?makes you afraid? runs contrary to the convention of ?fear no evil?. Of course, this is a matter of theological debate. In any case, I think any irrational fear of Satan (either because it?s theologically plausible that he?s not worth fearing or because he simply doesn?t exist) is unfortunate and unnecessary.

[QUOTE=Rachmaninoff]
The idea that something makes you afraid is to pat, to easy. Being afraid in my opinion is far more complex and not something that happens because someone makes you afraid.

I hope that cleared up what I was trying to say.[/QUOTE]

Very much so, I hope you get an idea of what I mean as well. In either case, I think we agree for the most part about the nature of fear aside from theological arguments.