Ingrained fears?

[Hanabishi Recca]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff]About the only theory I don?t really agree with is the one presented here by Hanabishi Recca:For the simple reason I don?t think it?s possible for something to force one to be afraid. [strike]And because I don?t believe in religion, but that?s another topic.[/strike'] If Satan were real he would strike me as someone who is supremely stupid and inept. Not someone capable of truly terrifying others.[/quote]

Well, I'm just saying that Satan made the fear in people. Seriously, if you met Jesus (just saying even if you don't believe in Jesus) do you think he would be afraid? He was never afraid in the Bible and he wasn't afraid whenever it wasn't recorded.

*laughs* [strike]I believe that Christianity is a family not a religion, but thats another subject.[/strike] All I'm trying to get across is that Satan made fear. He is real in my mind, otherwise bad things happen because either you did something bad or its random on how bad things happen. I always think that the best thing should happen. But, this all goes into a personal openion.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Drix D'Zanth']Fear is a very complex question that psychologists and thinkers have tackled for a long time. Retribution's post seems lauded, and rightfully so, but it is somewhat incomplete. Research in neurochemistry and neuropsychology has given new insight into some of the fundamental mechanisms that cause us to feel the emotion we describe as "fear".[/quote]
[size=1]I skipped those because I thought I covered them by saying "they exist" rather than "this is what makes them exist". But you did bring up some good points about sudden noises/sights/light that make us afraid, and I really have no [scientific] reason to give. That's really the biggest hole in the conditioning-only philosophy. Then again, ascribing to only one philosophy to explain human behavior lands you in a world of inaccuracies (Freudian analysis, behaviorism, etc).

[quote name='Hanabishi Recca']Well, I'm just saying that Satan made the fear in people. Seriously, if you met Jesus (just saying even if you don't believe in Jesus) do you think he would be afraid? He was never afraid in the Bible and he wasn't afraid whenever it wasn't recorded.[/quote]
Not even when he was in Gethsemane praying profusely to his father to let the cup pass from him? I vaguely remember something about Jesus sweating blood due to his anguish... that would be fear and apprehension. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with Jesus being afraid, you know. He was a human just like the rest of us.[/size]

[nezzyjean]

[QUOTE=Engel][color=darkslategray][size=1]
The question you have to ask yourself is this:
What happened, deep in the hidden eras before history began, that could effect the entire human race so evenly as to give the entire species a deep, instinctual, and lasting fear of pale beings with dark, sunken eyes, razor sharp teeth, and elongated faces?[/size][/color][/QUOTE]

God i lost sleep last night because I randomly thought of this thread and was convinced some dark, sunken eyed, razor sharp toothed beast with an elongated face was gonna pop out of my closet and eat me. :animeshy:

I don't think this fear is one of the cases where it comes from ingrained fear. I just think it is part of everyone's fear of things that are different from themselves. Although this doesn't really explain the razor sharp teeth aspect, but maybe we're just afraid of anything sharp because it could hurt us? Man, but wouldn't it be totally crazy if something like this once roamed the earth?

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Drix D'Zanth]I?m impressed Rachmaninoff, few people can pull of the consistent post quality that I?ve seen from you. I also appreciate the speedy response, I was excited to hear what you had to write and you?ve given me plenty to think about here. I think you might appreciate that I?m writing my response while enjoying our friend Sergey?s Piano Concerto No.2 in C Minor, Op.18: 1. Moderato.[/QUOTE]Thanks, and I definitely can appreciate a response written to the sound of pure heaven that is known as Sergei. [QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth']However, what intrigues me is the vast majority of fear that is simply irrational. This is because we are capable of judging circumstances irrationally, and our inability to make rational judgments is especially likely in early developmental years. I mentioned in my first post about the Prefrontal region of the brain which is responsible for the processing of judgment calls (bit of fun trivia, the Prefrontal cortex develops more slowly in men than women, women mature within their high-school years while men may take until age 25 to be fully developed! Explains a lot of behavior, right?).[/quote]It?s interesting that you should bring up the aspect of fears that are irrational. Because I?ve often thought that part of what gives fears such a strong hold, especially in childhood is along the lines of what you?ve mentioned. Our ability to discern things and to determine if they are indeed a threat are impaired by our lack of maturity in understanding them, the judgment call you speak of. My understanding of the Prefrontal region of the brain and such is rather limited as I have never studied that but I?ve always understood the concept of an adult knows that there is nothing in the closet where a child does not. Especially since there is suppose to be an age where children have yet to determine certain levels of reality. They don?t know that things such as cartoons aren?t real yet. So it?s easier for the fear to be irrational since they can?t tell what can be real and what can?t yet.

You described it far better than I can in your example on how children process the thought that there is something in the closet due to the sound of a shoe falling, where the adult would know that the sound had to be caused by something like a shoe falling or say a cat roaming though the house and not some monsters..[quote name='Drix D'Zanth'] I agree with you entirely. While I don?t want to draw this topic into a tangential discussion of theology, I do recognize that (as far as Abrahamic religions are concerned) there may be a case for some source of evil. It?s worth noting that while Satan might be the progenitor of fear, humans are capable of perpetuating it on their own. Your account of teachers at church telling children that Satan ?makes you afraid? runs contrary to the convention of ?fear no evil?. Of course, this is a matter of theological debate. In any case, I think any irrational fear of Satan (either because it?s theologically plausible that he?s not worth fearing or because he simply doesn?t exist) is unfortunate and unnecessary.[/quote]I would imagine that part of the difference here is based on the religion I was raised in and in how the material was presented to me. I remember quite clearly how the story of Adam and Eve was presented in how they knew nothing beyond their existence. They did not understand that they were naked; sin was a concept beyond them. Until Satan convinced Eve to eat the apple and then give it to Adam, at that point they became aware and the way it was explained to me as a child was that at that point they understood what fear was and it was due to Satan getting them to eat the apple.

I have not really studied theology so I can?t say for certain what the convention of fear no evil would be since the Mormon religion I understand is quite different from other groups. But the way I was taught before I moved away from religion was that yes we should fear no evil, but if Satan did not exist there would be no evil to even fear in the first place. Perhaps I misunderstood what they were saying. But that is how I interpreted it.

I certainly agree with you on the aspect about fearing Satan as being unnecessary though because as you?ve also stated, we are certainly capable of having fear on our own. [quote name='Drix D'Zanth']Very much so, I hope you get an idea of what I mean as well. In either case, I think we agree for the most part about the nature of fear aside from theological arguments.[/quote]Agreed.

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff'] But the way I was taught before I moved away from religion was that yes we should fear no evil, but if Satan did not exist there would be no evil to even fear in the first place. Perhaps I misunderstood what they were saying. But that is how I interpreted it. [/quote]I don't believe that is how it is meant to be taken, but I can certainly see how you would come to that conclusion. Because it is a common theme, among those I know, that a lot of the downfalls are due to people being tempted and that Satan is one of those who would make sure you were being tempted in order to secure your fall from grace.

I'm going to offend a lot of those who are Mormon with this statement, but nonetheless I believe it to be true based on my own experiences. But a huge percent of the discussions and teachings in the Mormon Church are about a mile wide but only an inch deep. They rarely go into any in depth in any theological discussions and for the most part the bible is treated as a document that is almost worthless due it being corrupted by repeated translations.

All of the real discussions tend to revolve around the Book of Mormon and dismisses a lot of the other things out there as being irrelevant as it is not part of the restored teachings. So the fact that you would be so confused as to how others see it is no surprise to me as very little effort is put into studying the bible at all. Or in getting our children to see it as a document worthy of studying. I've attended the few classes that are offered and being a convert and not from Utah, I can comfortably say that they are very shallow and lacking in terms of teaching our children.

And to get back on topic, I agree with what both you and Drix D?Zanth are saying. Fears are far more complex than a simple statement of they are caused by Satan, rather I think if Satan were to be involved at all, he would be taking advantage of that process to make our fears worse instead of being the actual cause. And children due to the nature of how they lack the ability to tell what?s real and what isn?t are far more vulnerable to developing irrational fears.

[Albert Flasher]

[COLOR=Sienna]Doesn't seem that complex too me... Obviously I'm not an expert in this kind of thing, but it seems damn obvious. Animals are naturally afraid of death. We try and ignore it and become unaware of our own mortality as a result of this fear. When we see things that remind us of death - sunken cheeks, withered bones, maggots and decay, the darkness - this fear is braught to the surface. Seems that simple. Am I missing something? [/COLOR]