Let's Abolish Profanity in Adventure Square/Reform thread

[Cicatrice Du Adieu]

[QUOTE=Doublehex]Personally, I think the ratings need to be revamped. The M threads seem to be more along the lines of something I'd see in a T rated videogame. The reason for this is probably because the only thing below it is PG, and that is something that is not even close to being for teens. PG and G is for kids, whereas M is teen and adult. Since most of the RPers and writers write for teen and adult audiences, thats what they go for.

If you really want to change things, start with the rating. Replace PG with T or PG-13. You'll definatley see a decrease in M rated threads.[/QUOTE]

And the curseing? What would happen to that? It would stay the same. The poeple on the thread have good ideas for decreasing profane language.

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

I have to admit I find it rather ironic that only a few years ago we were arguing in this very forum as to the advantages of removing the swear filter to allow for "creative expression". Personally the swear filter has never been a problem for myself as I've always tried to either limit the amount of swearing that occurs in my works, or to have it as an effective means of story-telling when it does occur.

Speaking as someone who like Shy, Charles and Alan has seen the Arena go through many different shapes and forms, I honestly think that simply reformatting the Arena and making it compulsory to detail what type of work it is, as well as it's rating will make very little difference in the long run. Of course I might be wrong here, but that is just my personal opinion.

In terms of the rating themselves, I have always been a proponent of adding new ratings to cover the absolutely abhorrent gap between the "PG" and "M" ratings. I think many people would be surprised by the effect of adding something as simple as a "T/Teen" rating to the Arena. Personally I've found, and I know this is true of other writers in the Arena, that I've had to give RPGs an M rating because I've felt the proposed content was beyond the realm of a PG rating.

Those are just my few cents anyway.[/SIZE]

[Vicky]

[SIZE=1]Although I'm not up for writing a huge post about why I disagreeing, I'll just state that I don't really agree with the idea. Shoot me for it, if you want, I just don't think it would work.

Put it simply, I think it's going a bit too far. I'm happy with the way things are and I agree with the fact that the M ratings need to calm down a bit, I don't agree with putting RPGs with stories and games. RPGs are very popular, people will be playing the RPGs and in time there might not be any stories, or comments in those stories because of the vast amount of RPGs.

Remember that Battle forum or... whatever title it went under? It's gone, and it was a good job. But posting Spars in the Arena don't feel right at all. I've only started one myself to date, and it really felt wrong. Bad argument, I know, but RPGs would kill out Story threads and... you know... I just don't see the 'new' forum looking any better.

The ratings need to be fixed, sure. I just, personally, don't think there is any need at all to recreate the entire Arena. And if you do go through with this... recreation... then at least don't do it too soon, I'm sure it'll end up confusing half the community that posts there.[/SIZE]

[Doublehex]

[quote name='lostvoice']And the curseing? What would happen to that? It would stay the same. The poeple on the thread have good ideas for decreasing profane language.[/quote]

To be honest, there isn't that much swearing to begin with. Now, I'm just referring to my RPs (and I have made quite a few), but you rarely see the F or S word. It happens, but its not too frequent. You do see a much higher usage of the A word and the D word, but they aren't nearly as offensive as others.

Now, will swearing go down by having a Teen rating? Probably not. But will the Arena become more organized? That is a much higher probability.

[Aaryanna_Mom]

As a parent my first thought is to get rid of all swearing, but then I remember when you pretty much never ran across it in any media. But the other side of me feels that the issue isn?t so much a matter of swearing but one of people throwing in language and violence instead of trying to develop their characters. They are using shock tactics to gain an audience instead of really creating a good solid RPG. I also think a huge part of the problem boils down to what SunfallE said in relation to what some consider mature and others do not. Even Gavin as you can see here has noticed that there is a horrible gap between PG and M ratings:[QUOTE=Gavin][SIZE=1]In terms of the rating themselves, I have always been a proponent of adding new ratings to cover the absolutely abhorrent gap between the "PG" and "M" ratings. I think many people would be surprised by the effect of adding something as simple as a "T/Teen" rating to the Arena. Personally I've found, and I know this is true of other writers in the Arena, that I've had to give RPGs an M rating because I've felt the proposed content was beyond the realm of a PG rating.

Those are just my few cents anyway.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]I?m going to use SunfallE?s RPG as an example for the simple reason it?s the only one I?ve been in other than the Event Mafia that was similar to an RPG. Anyway, when she slapped the rating on her RPG, I already knew that what she considers mature content is not the same as what the kids and teenagers today consider mature. So I know that for the most part it will not have what many members would consider mature content. Perhaps PG-13, but not mature. And today most PG and PG-13 shows these days are shocking to me in that they include content you would have never seen outside an R movie just fifteen years ago.

However when someone else slaps a rating on their story/RPG, there were stories in the OB Anthology that I immediately withdrew since the content was more of what I would consider borderline porn instead of one that would fit in a mature rating.

I can see how swearing would be the easiest thing to modify to help with quality issues, and I'm sure it will help reign in those who really do use it just to be able to swear, but I voice the same concern SunfallE does in that what one person considers tasteful adult content, others will think is pure trash. And removing the ability to swear won?t really change that aspect. So trying to moderate the content based on what one considers tasteful is something I think would be a huge headache. It?s a job I would not want, as my idea of tasteful is outdated compared to today?s standards.

[Semjaza]

[quote name='DeadSeraphim][size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]I think a lot of people would just post in adult, if that was the case. We need to make it so expletive filled RPs, are an exception, not the rule. I think if you modded them harsly - like, I'm talking an interview to justify language and sexual content - you could still manage to have them. This might make people inundate mods with "I wanna say **** and ****!!!" requests, though, so it's hard. I agree some threads do manage to pull it off (like Kill Adam, or Torment [though that never got off the ground]), but otherwise the Arena's use of 'mature' concepts is a joke, and a new standard has to be set.[/font][/color'][/size][/quote]

If most people post in that section, wouldn't that heavily imply that that's what most people here wanted?

I can disagree all I want, but I mean so what?

[Sara]

[quote name='vicky']I think the reason most people have an M rating is because they're scared of their RPG going over-board and getting closed. The only reason I think that is because up until awhile ago I was always afraid that I might add a bit too much violence and the game would be closed for an improper rating.[/quote][color=#b0000b][size=1]The thing about that is, moderators have full ability to edit threads, and if you feel that your story is evolving into something that needs a higher rating, all it takes is a PM or a moment on AIM to request a rating change. Editing a thread title is literally the work of a few seconds.[/size][/color]

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR=DimGray]Once you think about it swearing has went from not so bad to horrable to kind off not bad again. (Horrable grammer I know.Trying to pass a point) Even Pg-13 movies have been known to say the F or S word a couple of times in a movie. So maybe swearing should be removed all together from PG-13 movies (Just the F and S word.)
So hell and damn shouldn't be filtered. Because lot's of people use them. [/COLOR]

[Ozymandius Jones]

[COLOR=DarkOrange][SIZE=1][quote name='Aaryanna_Mom']It?s a job I would not want, as my idea of tasteful is outdated compared to today?s standards.[/quote]

And I adore you for it, ma'am. :)

That being said. I would like to address the topic of "gratuitous." To my mind, the ratings are there in [I]case[/I]. As a guideline. I mean...I try to avoid anything gratuitous. I dun' swear, my posts aren't gorey, and the closest thing I've ever had in any RP to a sex scene was in a flashback. The incident in question was important to the character - it explained mindset and behavior - but it was also non-con. I handled it with implications and a fade-to-black, as anything else would be too much, instead of character development it would be there for shock value. Was there anything graphic? No. Could it have passed in a PG rating? I don't see many PG movies allowing implications of rape.

I know the rating guidelines list PG as this:

[quote name='Adventure Square Rules][B]"PG" - Parental Guidance[/B'] - A thread rated "PG" is made to include members that are 13 years old, or older. These may contain mild violence, suggestive themes (Ie: alluding to sex, while not actually showing it) and some adult language. These threads may contain some material that members, and their parents may find inapparopriate.[/quote]

Clearly, my style of RPing would fit withing the PG guidelines. However, when it comes down to it, most people see the PG rating and think this:

[CENTER][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/OzymandiusJones/djimon_hounsou1.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[spoiler]and my apologies to the Eragon fans out there, it's the only comparison that sprang to mind instantly.[/spoiler]

So...yeah, that's my $0.02.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Sara]

[QUOTE=Ozymandius Jones][COLOR=DarkOrange][SIZE=1]Clearly, my style of RPing would fit withing the PG guidelines. However, when it comes down to it, most people see the PG rating and think this:

[CENTER][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/OzymandiusJones/djimon_hounsou1.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[spoiler]and my apologies to the Eragon fans out there, it's the only comparison that sprang to mind instantly.[/spoiler]

So...yeah, that's my $0.02.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE][color=#b0000b][size=1]So let's teach them different.[/color][/size]

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson]So the theory is that the piss poor roleplayers we have making their shoddy little crudheaps full of unnecessary cursing/sexuality/violence will find the path to being good roleplayers by washing their mouth out with soap?

Or am I not following this correctly.[/color]

[Sakura]

[color=navy]I've read through this thread and I have to say that I don't really mind if the swear filter is reimplemented because I don't usually use swear words when I'm RPing, nor do I care about removing graphic sexual situations. The thing that I am more concerned about is flattening graphic violence. Now don't get me wrong, I disagree with pointless graphic violence, but when it comes to assassin type RPs and things that requires a lot of killing, it won't have the same effect if we can't describe the act happening. Unless of course each RP creator of that sort does the 'PM someone and plead the case' type thing.[/color]

[Doublehex]

Okay, I have a few things to say, and I'd be damned if I'm not gonna say them.

First off, notice that beyond all the M ratings, the people who care about their posts' quality do [I]not[/I] curse every other line. They swear, but its not nearly as much as you make it seem. The ones who do it on a whim, that see it as a way to pass the time, they are the ones that probably curse so frequently. I may be wrong in assuming so, but that's just the way I see it.

I don't see how the board should have to suffer for the ill of a few.

I also don't see why the board doesn't respond to the inappropriate behavior in a manner that doesn't involve changing the Arena so drastically. Instead of just ignoring it, I say we, as a community of roleplayers, put our arms around the lesser expiernced roleplayers in a warm gesture, and suggest that they lessen the cursing. If they feel that this is what the pros, the people who know what they are doing, and they are being considerate and friendly in the way they state their opinion, I'm pretty sure the new comers will change.

Think of it like this: when a new couple moves into the neighborhood, what are you expected to do? Ignore them, pretend they never existed? Isolate them? No, you get them a "Welcome" gift, greet them into the neighborhood.

Same philosophy here. Give the new comers a reason to improve.

Another thing I noticed (again, I might be wrong here), is that you seem to imply that those that RP are immature, that they need someone to wipe their butts for them. I don't know about you, but I, and a ton of other people, can control the speech of our characters. We know when to swear; we know when we shouldn't.

And as for the kids that frequent the boards, I say that we just tell them that its time to brighten up. We should be kind, of course, but if we need to, we should start to be harsh. There are ways to act, online and offline, and censoring will do that no good. By censoring swears, you are harming the kids. They will not learn; they will keep on swearing, even if its all *** and ****. But if we actually talk to them, they will learn; they will mature. They will become better people for it.

[Claire]

[FONT=Arial]Personally, implementing a swear filter there really wouldn't affect me at all. I really like Shy's idea to redo the forums there to better fit the situation.

To add on to the argument about ratings, I'll take two PG rated movies; Disney's [B]Lilo and Stitch[/B] and Mel Brooks' [B]Spaceballs[/B]. Now, I'm not entirely sure why Lilo and Stitch was even rated PG to begin with (the back of the box said something like "frantic space violence" or something like that), but it seems to me that Spaceballs is just a little bit more mature than that. There's definitely a lot of humor that would pass right over the heads of younger viewers, as well as suggestive content such as [spoiler]the place Dark Helmet and what's-his-face (I'm having trouble remembering his name at the moment) have to hold in order to use the Schwartz[/spoiler]. I remember an 'eff' word and some other profanities that usually get blanked out on regular television, too.

It seems like 'PG' is a gigantic pool that holds cute little cartoon characters, happy messages, adult humor, and foul language without clarifying which is appropriate for what audience.[/FONT]

[Dagger]

I understand your point, but wasn't Spaceballs made before the PG-13 rating came into existence? :animeswea

~Dagger~

[Sara]

[QUOTE=Dagger]I understand your point, but wasn't Spaceballs made before the PG-13 rating came into existence? :animeswea

~Dagger~[/QUOTE][color=#b0000b][size=1]Which is the situation in the Arena right now, isn't it?[/color][/size]

[Dagger]

[quote name='Sara][color=#b0000b][size=1]Which is the situation in the Arena right now, isn't it?[/color'][/size][/quote]Okay, obviously I [i]didn't[/i] see her point. :animeshy: I thought she was referring to consolidation and the [Game] & [Story] tags, instead of adding a PG-13 type of rating to the mix. Perhaps I should just call it a night now, haha.

~Dagger~

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]But I don't want to post in a thread that doesn't have a Mature rating! I'm mature enough to say dirty words, invent horrific gore and write perverted things! You can't stop me! This is censorship!!!

[center][img]http://radicalgraphics.org/albums/Censorship/censorship.sized.jpg[/img][/center][/size]

[TheResplendent]

[FONT=Tahoma]My apologies if I have not fully taken into consideration every issue discussed here as I am guilty of skimming through a couple of posts. But I believe I have the basic idea down.

Simply put, personally I would not mind if the language filter is set. Regardless of it being on or off people will usually be able to understand what is meant to be said and why it is being said. Though I also personally have not seen an exorbitant amount of profanity used in most of the RPs I have participated in, whether it is a big issue or not I can see why the filter may seem necessary.

That however is the extent of what I agree with completely. To me the M rating should be used more so to identify a wider restriction on what the content can be. It does not necessarily [i]have[/i] to involve profanity, graphic sex and violence, etc etc. It's there to allow for a wider choice of how your character can express himself or what situations they should find themselves in. PG aspects can be portrayed just as easily in M rated threads as M aspects. Where as it cannot work the other way, since the PG rating is restrictive.

A large abundance of these features of M rated threads that are being discouraged may be a cause for concern as it pertains to the ability to have a fun and succesful RP that needs not include aspects of an M rating being taken for granted. Just the same as sex and violence sells in spite of most other types of entertainment, it's understandable that the same rule may apply to the Arena as well. However, for it to cause this kind of an uproar seems a bit much, as I have not noticed a large amount that could be possibly viewed as excessive.

If this is truly a problem for so many however, I cannot see myself completely leaving, nor will i stop participating completely either. [/FONT]

[DeadSeraphim]

[COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial][quote name='BKstyles][FONT=Tahoma]To me the M rating should be used more so to identify a wider restriction on what the content can be. It does not necessarily [i]have[/i'] to involve profanity, graphic sex and violence, etc etc. It's there to allow for a wider choice of how your character can express himself or what situations they should find themselves in. PG aspects can be portrayed just as easily in M rated threads as M aspects. Where as it cannot work the other way, since the PG rating is restrictive.[/FONT][/quote]
That's the whole problem. That's [b]not[/b] how the ratings system is meant to work. The ratings system is so readers and people going into sign ups can gauge the rough idea of what will be in the thread without entering it and possibly being offended, it's not for the benefit of RPers who might, perhaps, maybe like to say **** at one point in the RP. People using the ratings system this way are the precise reason it's so broken.

Besides which, for most of the good RPs I've seen, the PG tag would do. The violence described is rarely ultra-gory, swearing is used sparingly, and sexuality is usually barely even touched on outside of implying it - all concepts allowable under the PG rating. Having a PG rating would barely hold you back at all - PG is about the equivalent of M IRL, and M is about the equivalent of R. If people read the rating guidelines there wouldn't even be a problem, but people don't, and this ignorance has pretty much ruined the whole concept of ratings at OB.

Bring on the reboot. 'Mature' RPing won't die cause there is almost no RPs made these days that even fall under the M rating, and those that do really do take it to awful, [I]immature[/I] extremes. I can't say I'll miss such forays into schlock.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Charles]

[QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]So the theory is that the piss poor roleplayers we have making their shoddy little crudheaps full of unnecessary cursing/sexuality/violence will find the path to being good roleplayers by washing their mouth out with soap?

Or am I not following this correctly.[/color][/QUOTE]

You're not really looking at the bigger picture, that's all.

I think that good roleplayers will always be good roleplayers. If a restriction is set, good roleplayers will be able to tell good stories without throwing around swear words constantly or fluffing up their writing with detailed sex scenes. If you look at most of the RPs in that area, these things could be removed and the stories would read better.

So, by moderating the forum more strictly we're not really doing a disservice to good roleplayers but at the same time, we're preventing the poor ones from trashing up the forum with a bunch of needless profanity. Their RPGs won't necessarily improve dramatically, but at least the forum will be uniform with the rest of the site by reflecting its standards.

Furthermore, I think that the rating system is really cumbersome. It's obvious by some of the replies in here that it's not clear and it's not really user-friendly. We're also relying on members' discretion which is obviously not such a hot idea judging by the rated M Yu-Gi-Oh RPGs we have. We also have people rating RPGs as "mature" because they're [I]afraid [/I] of getting moderated. The rating system is counterproductive; it intimidates some and results in a lot of hassle when threads have to be closed because of people who forget to include ratings. I don't think this is a desirable system based on these problems.

This reboot idea is something that Shy and I have been discussing for the past two days and it has matured into what it has--an area for games, stories and RPGs. I think that the overall tone should be simple, fun and inclusive instead of a bunch of needless profanity.

So, you can oversimplify anything and make it look dumb but if you look at the bigger picture here, it makes sense.

[SunfallE]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][QUOTE=Charles]Furthermore, I think that the rating system is really cumbersome. It's obvious by some of the replies in here that it's not clear and it's not really user-friendly.
[/QUOTE]I agree completely and the fact that so many people have different ideas as to what they consider mature is what resulted in my giving my RPG the mature rating. I started with the PG-13 LVS in the OB Anthology, but the thread got edited to reflect the PG rating that for some of the elements in the story I felt was not an appropriate rating. I had someone being tortured at one point and later on implying that one person was raped by another. Something that is not what I would consider a PG type of story.

So I went with the mature rating since there are some plot twists I have planned that don?t fit in what I consider to be a PG rating. And there doesn?t seem to be an in-between. Just adding the letters. Unless by adding the letters for LVS or what ever you intend to include is suppose to indicate a PG-13 rating. And even then as I explained earlier in the thread, my idea of more mature is a bit different than what teenagers and kids today are use to.

If the changes will help remove that confusion then I?m all for it, but I wonder if it really will improve overall quality since I haven?t really seen a lot of threads that are absolutely loaded with swearing. Poor quality posts perhaps, but swearing? I?ve seen far more poor quality issues than the other. But then I don?t take the time to completely follow all the threads in that area as don?t have the time for it. [/COLOR]

[Shy]

[quote name='Doublehex']And as for the kids that frequent the boards, I say that we just tell them that its time to brighten up. We should be kind, of course, but if we need to, we should start to be harsh. There are ways to act, online and offline, and censoring will do that no good. By censoring swears, you are harming the kids. They will not learn; they will keep on swearing, even if its all *** and ****. But if we actually talk to them, they will learn; they will mature. They will become better people for it.[/quote][size=1]I'm Shy. I'm a 21 year-old college student who has been living on my own for almost a year. I created Thread Ratings while also participating in one of the most graphic RPGs to date. More to the point, I regularly consume alcoholic beverages and have engaged in irresponsible sex countless times. I DON'T WANT CURSING IN MY GODDAMN ARENA, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT IT OFFENDS 8 YEAR OLDS.[/size]
[QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]So the theory is that the piss poor roleplayers we have making their shoddy little crudheaps full of unnecessary cursing/sexuality/violence will find the path to being good roleplayers by washing their mouth out with soap?

Or am I not following this correctly.[/color][/QUOTE][size=1]The idea is that putting in a swear filter will put a stop to the unneccessary swearing and vulgarity in the forum. In turn, new members will not be turned off by the 'adult' and inclusive nature of The Arena and [i]hopefully[/i] be inclined to participate themselves. Idiots are always going to be idiots, but now they can offend people with their words as opposed to their [i]language[/i].

Rebooting The Arena isn't going to hurt the forum's overall actvity. In fact, I think it will draw more people into a part of the boards they might have been avoiding. Any current threads can be transferred over to the new Arena, they only need to follow whatever guidelines are established for RPGs in that area.

-Shy[/size]

[Charles]

[quote name='SunfallE][COLOR=RoyalBlue']If the changes will help remove that confusion then I?m all for it, but I wonder if it really will improve overall quality since I haven?t really seen a lot of threads that are absolutely loaded with swearing. Poor quality posts perhaps, but swearing? I?ve seen far more poor quality issues than the other. But then I don?t take the time to completely follow all the threads in that area as don?t have the time for it. [/COLOR][/quote]

See, I don't think that will happen immediately. I won't try to convince anyone that removing profanity won't automatically make Gohan2349 a better roleplayer. That would be an unreasonable argument. However, I think one effect that will be effective immediately is that the area will become cohesive with the OtakuBoards culture. Especially if the proposed redesign goes through.

Additionally, the first impression will be improved---and that's important, I think. The appearence of the forum will be immediately improved. Many people might visit the site, enter that area and see nothing but a sea of M-rated threads and confusing ratings. I think that if we eliminate that negative impression and the intimidating/cumbersome/unclear ratings system, there's a [i]chance[/i] that the area will see an increase in activity over time. I'd say that there's a wider appeal in a cleaner, friendier image, and a simpler interface.

So if we're talking instant benefits, that's what I'm going to use as my pitch here.

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Charles']I think that good roleplayers will always be good roleplayers. If a restriction is set, good roleplayers will be able to tell good stories without throwing around swear words constantly or fluffing up their writing with detailed sex scenes. If you look at most of the RPs in that area, these things could be removed and the stories would read better.[/quote]

[color=crimson]Granted. I just have the opinion that most of the current RPers that are extremely active aren't "good roleplayers" and that instituting this change won't do much to improve the quality of the actually stories themselves as the creators are as poor as their creations are.

I don't enjoy needless sex or violence, I'm following you there. I just hold the current active userbase in the RP forums with little respect except for a few here and there no matter what kind of adult content they're throwing around.[/color]

[quote name='Charles]Furthermore, I think that the rating system is really cumbersome. It's obvious by some of the replies in here that it's not clear and it's not really user-friendly. We're also relying on members' discretion which is obviously not such a hot idea judging by the rated M Yu-Gi-Oh RPGs we have. We also have people rating RPGs as "mature" because they're [I]afraid [/I'] of getting moderated. The rating system is counterproductive; it intimidates some and results in a lot of hassle when threads have to be closed because of people who forget to include ratings. I don't think this is a desirable system based on these problems.[/quote]

[color=crimson]It is a cumbersome system and I know that I personally started putting M-SLV as a just in case measure so my entire RP doesn't get shut down due to the whim of one of my players wanting to **** someone else.[/color]

[quote name='Charles']This reboot idea is something that Shy and I have been discussing for the past two days and it has matured into what it has--an area for games, stories and RPGs. I think that the overall tone should be simple, fun and inclusive instead of a bunch of needless profanity.[/quote]

[color=crimson]Don't presume that I don't like the idea. Anything that would even possibly improve that area I'd love to see tried out.[/color]

[quote name='Charles']So, you can oversimplify anything and make it look dumb but if you look at the bigger picture here, it makes sense.[/quote]

[color=crimson]It does. Sorry for jumping to conclusions.[/color]