Let's Abolish Profanity in Adventure Square/Reform thread

[Charles]

Well, that's the outlook I have Sara. However, even if the worst happened and these threads did slip off the first page and no one cared about them, then I don't see how that's much worse than letting them sit around with people not caring about them.

[Sandy]

[quote name='Charles']Well, that's the outlook I have Sara. However, even if the worst happened and these threads did slip off the first page and no one cared about them, then I don't see how that's much worse than letting them sit around with people not caring about them.[/quote]

My take on this issue is that even though the Anthology threads aren't replied to as often, it doesn't mean that they're not read at all. I for one read them almost daily, and enjoy them without really having anything constructive to say about them, so I rarely make any posts. I believe it's important for many members of OB just to be [I]able[/I] to send their work here, even though they wouldn't get many answers.

I'm with Raiyuu on this one: if stories and poems were mixed with RPGs and game threads, they would really slip quickly to the second page, which I also like to call "oblivion". Sara's option about increased activity is a bit too optimistic, in my opinion, because it's not like the Anthology exists in a [I]totally[/I] different place than Adventure Square. Any person interested in creative writing is most likely to have found the place already.

I swear, with this enthusiasm of "tidying things up", in a few years we'll have just one forum for everything... *rolls eyes* (Kidding!)

[Shy]

[size=1]Since the general concern seems to be that one giant Games and Stories may prove too difficult to manage, perhaps we should have things organized like so.
[indent][b]Arena Square:[/b] RPGs, poems and short stories go here. Arena Square is an all-purpose forum for creative writing on OtakuBoards. Like the rest of The Arena, the swear filter will be in place but there will be no thread ratings.

[b]Arena Underground (Sub-Forum):[/b] Arena Underground is the new home to sign-up threads/RPG discussion and also more generalized threads about creative writing.

[b]Arena Games:[/b] Game threads can have their own designated forum, although it will be heavily moderated and posts will not count toward a member's post count. General OB rules such as 'No one word posts,' still apply.[/indent]

Literary discussion and threads about specific books can be moved to the Movies, Music and TV forum (which would be retitled to 'Otaku Media' or something.)

-Shy[/size]

[DeadSeraphim]

[QUOTE=Raiyuu][FONT=Trebuchet MS]The thing with putting current Anthology threads in with the Square is that they'll drop off the first page pretty quickly, squeezed out by RPGs. Charles, those stats you pointed out about Anthology threads seem to me to suggest that those threads [i]need[/i] their own forum, to stop them being swamped by bigger threads with more (and more frequent) replies.

And to balance out that bit of naysaying, I think the idea of conducting OOC discussion in the original sign-up thread for the RPG, instead of having a separate thread and a whole forum just for those threads, would tidy things up considerably.[/FONT][/QUOTE]
[size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]That wouldn't happen often. Neither forum is ever extremely active, and I even now, combined, they don't top the 30 thread limit for a forum before it starts paginating. The risks of stories being overrun is minimal at best, and would only happen if there was a huge RP boom - something I don't see happening anytime soon.[/font][/color][/size]

[Gavin]

[QUOTE=Shy][size=1]Since the general concern seems to be that one giant Games and Stories may prove too difficult to manage, perhaps we should have things organized like so.
[indent][b]Arena Square:[/b] RPGs, poems and short stories go here. Arena Square is an all-purpose forum for creative writing on OtakuBoards. Like the rest of The Arena, the swear filter will be in place but there will be no thread ratings.
[b]Arena Underground (Sub-Forum):[/b] Arena Underground is the new home to sign--up threads/RPG Discussion and also more generalized threads about creative writing.
[b]Arena Games:[/b] Game threads can have their own designated forum, although it will be heavily moderated and posts will not count toward a member's post count. General OB rules such as 'No one word posts,' still apply.[/indent]

Literary discussion and threads about specific books can be moved to the Movies, Music and TV forum (which would be retitled to 'Otaku Media' or something.)

-Shy[/size][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]An interesting set-up, although I have to admit I'm not too keen to see the books segment of the Arena merged with MMTV to create "Otaku Media" as you call it. Typically these two have been apples and oranges to one another, each dealing with a specific form of a media, just as the Play It forum deals with a separate system to PC & Mac. [/SIZE]

[Sara]

[quote name='Gavin][SIZE=1']An interesting set-up, although I have to admit I'm not too keen to see the books segment of the Arena merged with MMTV to create "Otaku Media" as you call it. Typically these two have been apples and oranges to one another, each dealing with a specific form of a media, just as the Play It forum deals with a separate system to PC & Mac. [/SIZE][/quote][color=#b0000b][size=1]I think book discussion could easily merge with Music, Movies, and TV. They're not that different, and there are many franchises that span more than one media, anyway.[/size][/color]

[Charles]

[quote name='Gavin][SIZE=1']An interesting set-up, although I have to admit I'm not too keen to see the books segment of the Arena merged with MMTV to create "Otaku Media" as you call it. Typically these two have been apples and oranges to one another, each dealing with a specific form of a media, just as the Play It forum deals with a separate system to PC & Mac. [/SIZE][/quote]

Actually, PC & Mac could probably be somehow combined with Play It (even as a sub-forum) and the Media section could fall under that area to form an Entertainment category on the boards. But, that's another story.

[Gavin]

[quote name='Sara][color=#b0000b][size=1]I think book discussion could easily merge with Music, Movies, and TV. They're not that different, and there are many franchises that span more than one media, anyway.[/size'][/color][/quote]

[SIZE=1]True enough, I just felt that the written sections of OB should be kept together even if the Category is being reformatted.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Charles']Actually, PC & Mac could probably be somehow combined with Play It (even as a sub-forum) and the Media section could fall under that area to form an Entertainment category on the boards. But, that's another story.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]This is something I actually agree with, as PC & Mac doesn't really have enough activity on a PC/Mac only games front to warrant keeping them separate. Perhaps a better idea would be to merge them and have a technical support or hardware sub-forum as an accompaniment.[/SIZE]

[James]

[font=arial]I have actually been thinking of merging Hardwired with Play It for a while...combining both forums and cleaning up the new, larger forum a bit might be a good idea. I just wonder if we can justify the forum having it s category in that case, though. I might need to look at making a change there as well.[/font]

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]I've been thinking the same thing. PC/Mac has had a whopping three threads posted in during the last week, and the forum's threads would be right at home in Play It anyway. The Web Site Workshop, I think, could just be deleted or merged with PC/Mac before the merge with Play It.

I have some thoughts on reorganizing the forum categories, which would take care of the resulting one-forum category Hardwired. But I'm sure those would cause a bit of a stir, and this thread is more specifically about the Arena, so I won't go into them here unless Jeh wants me to.

Anyway, after taking another look at activity levels in the Square and Anthology, I'm liking Shy's latest setup. But before anything can even remotely come close to being settled on, there's a couple things that I think need to be decided on.

First, will the swear filter be in place or not? Personally, I don't particularly care if it gets put back in effect since I don't use many obscenities in my writing, but I do realize it can limit the kinds of characters and stories which can be portrayed effectively. Second, if the filter isn't in place, are we going to take any steps to differentiate, separate, or otherwise restrict threads which contain large amounts of swearing? Or other mature content for that matter?

A lot of forum structures and concepts have been presented but it doesn't seem like we've really gotten anywhere because everyone has different ideas about the answers to these two questions.[/color]

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=Desbreko][color=#4B0082]Second, if the filter isn't in place, are we going to take any steps to differentiate, separate, or otherwise restrict threads which contain large amounts of swearing? Or other mature content for that matter?
[/color][/QUOTE]

I still hold my opinion that we moderators could very well supervise all the threads for excessive mature content, and then put a warning to the title if necessary.

But ultimately I think the time for discussion has passed, and now we should start putting words into actions.

[Charles]

[quote name='Desbreko][color=#4B0082']Second, if the filter isn't in place, are we going to take any steps to differentiate, separate, or otherwise restrict threads which contain large amounts of swearing? Or other mature content for that matter?[/color][/quote]

Either way, it's important that the site sends a decisive message. Either we're going to support mature content, or we're not. I don't think it cuts it to [i]kind of[/i] support mature content and force people to include precautions before using it. I don't think there should be a halfway point here. I think this site has to go one way or another instead of complicating things.

Anyway, as I said, I think that Play It and the Music, Movies and Television forum would go together well, but if you just want to eliminate the category altogether then I won't mind going into "retirement." Whatever works best, obviously.

I have to agree with Sandy though; it's time to get this ball rolling!

[James]

[font=arial]At this point, I don't really want to merge Play It with Movies, Music & TV (although I can understand the logic involved there - it certainly may happen in the future).

In terms of maturity in RPGs...we have always supported mature RPGs. It's not about maturity at all, it's about quality.

If you swear like a nut in an RPG, that RPG will [i]probably[/i] be low quality. I mean, it would be no different to having shockingly bad dialogue or no paragraphs.

So a lack of quality is a lack of quality, you know? That shouldn't have an impact on the maturity of an RPG.

I think we are making the mistake of confusing swearing with maturity.[/font]

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]Well, "maturity" and "mature content" are two different things. I hate using the same word in both cases but there seems to be no good substitute.

Obviously low quality RPGs will get the same treatment regardless of whether the filter is in effect or not. But, when generous amounts of swearing are called for by the type of characters present in a quality RPG, are we going to have any sort of system set up to let people know about that before they jump into the thread, like the ratings were supposed to do? The question pretty much boils down to whether we're going to replace the ratings with some other system or simply drop them, in the event that the swear filter remains disabled.[/color]

[Ezekiel]

[QUOTE=Sandy]I still hold my opinion that we moderators could very well supervise all the threads for excessive mature content, and then put a warning to the title if necessary.

But ultimately I think the time for discussion has passed, and now we should start putting words into actions.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Once again, I have been bad with not reading all replies, but I completely agree with Sandy here. As someone who participates in 'mature' RPGs, but also as a mod, I wouldn't want to see the freedom taken away completely. But supervising is our job and I enjoy it, so it would be very easy for us to monitor all threads going on.

We need something to do around there now anyway. Everyone is behaving too well. :rolleyes: [/SIZE]

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]It seems that what we're looking at has grown from a debate on profanity in the Square to a complete formatting of nearly all of OtakuBoard's categories. Combining the gaming categories shouldn't be all that difficult, after all as has already been pointed out several times, PC/Mac simply doesn't generate specific enough threads to warrant it's continued existence. However I would disagree about merging it into the Media Otaku Category as it would seem to create one slightly mammoth forum containing gaming, art, literature, music, films and TV, which is a bit much.[/SIZE]

[Claire]

[quote name='Gavin][SIZE=1']However I would disagree about merging it into the Media Otaku Category as it would seem to create one slightly mammoth forum containing gaming, art, literature, music, films and TV, which is a bit much.[/SIZE][/quote]

[FONT=Arial]I agree with this. In one of my earlier posts I mentioned thinking to call the addition of literary discussion to Music, Movies & TV "uninteractive entertainment" to differientiate between it and Play It and PC/Mac. Of course, that's a rather unwieldy name, but it summarizes the media that would be discussed in the merged forum. Reading books, watching TV and movies, and listening to music doesn't require the same human interaction as video games, so they'd probably be better to merge (if anyone revamps anything at all).[/FONT]

[James]

[QUOTE=Desbreko][color=#4B0082]Well, "maturity" and "mature content" are two different things. I hate using the same word in both cases but there seems to be no good substitute.

Obviously low quality RPGs will get the same treatment regardless of whether the filter is in effect or not. But, when generous amounts of swearing are called for by the type of characters present in a quality RPG, are we going to have any sort of system set up to let people know about that before they jump into the thread, like the ratings were supposed to do? The question pretty much boils down to whether we're going to replace the ratings with some other system or simply drop them, in the event that the swear filter remains disabled.[/color][/QUOTE]

[font=arial]Well, I suppose my question is...what options do we really have? We either have user-centric ratings (that rely on user accuracy) [i]or[/i] we have Moderators make determinations on each thread. The former probably won't work and the latter isn't realistic.

My preference is to keep the language filter disabled for the time being, because I do not want RPGs to be limited - I don't want the many to be unfairly punished because of the few who can't use language appropriately. RPGs with ridiculous or inappropriate language use should really be treated the same as those with other types of low quality content.

In terms of the overall debate...let me just say that forum overhauls are very much on my mind and they have been for a while. Much of what is being suggested here is spot-on, in terms of what we actually need. I think you can expect some of these changes to occur well before any new version of the site appears.[/font]

[Charles]

[QUOTE=James][font=arial]Well, I suppose my question is...what options do we really have? We either have user-centric ratings (that rely on user accuracy) [i]or[/i] we have Moderators make determinations on each thread. The former probably won't work and the latter isn't realistic.

My preference is to keep the language filter disabled for the time being, because I do not want RPGs to be limited - I don't want the many to be unfairly punished because of the few who can't use language appropriately. RPGs with ridiculous or inappropriate language use should really be treated the same as those with other types of low quality content.[/font][/QUOTE]

I think it's best just for the staff to look at the RPGs in a common sense sort-of-way, which can be done just by skimming. As long as someone isn't overzealous with their swearing, everything should be Kosher. If someone is inserting the "f" word into every other sentence, then it might be best to message that person. Right now I think we can all agree that over-swearing isn't really an issue as much as the cumbersome ratings system itself. With the ratings system done away with, I doubt that many RPGs will give people that impression that it's acceptable to use explicit language because people won't feel the urge to "play it safe." More importantly, people who don't normally frequent the forum will not be as intimidated.

The cool thing is that in an RPG forum, the member as the extra moderator is even more prevalent than in other forums. If someone creates an RPG and a member begins to post language that the creator doesn't want to see, then you better believe that they're going to either handle the situation themselves or speak to a staff member about it. So, that relieves a bit of the stress on the staff, I think.

Anyway, it's cool that we're going to see some changes; I never really had any doubt about that.

[James]

[font=arial]I agree - I think that the problematic threads will be pretty obvious. We are probably better off just getting rid of the ratings system completely. If people really feel that they want to warn people about an RPG's content, they can do that if they choose to.

I would still like to find a way to rate RPGs, but it's just not going to be possible without a more integrated system - it can't be done the way we've done it thusfar. So we'll have to think about that.[/font]

[Shy]

[size=1]So now that Hardwired has been merged with The Prefecture, can we hope to see some changes to The Arena anytime soon? I'm not just talking about removing Thread Ratings, but also reorganizing the forums as well.

Also, why not move Art Studio to The Arena? Creativity rocks.

-Shy[/size]

[James]

[font=arial]Yep, The Arena/Creative Writing is next on the list. Hardwired was a relatively simple issue, but making the changes we need in The Arena will be a bit more difficult. Those won't happen just yet, probably in a week's time or so. There's still a few things to be done with Hardwired first.[/font]

[Sandy]

I have a further relocation suggestion, if you may.

Now that Hardwired has been moved in the same place with Otaku Lounge and the like, the front page looks quite unbalanced (two forums in the first section, then six, and then three), and there really isn't anything "art-like" in the "Arts & Entertainment" section other than Art Studio, so why don't you move that to the "Creative Writing" section, renaming the sections something like "Entertainment" and "Creative Arts".

How would that sound? The procedure would be even simpler than moving Hardwired, plus it would make the front page look much more organized, in my opinion.

[DeadSeraphim]

[QUOTE=Sandy]I have a further relocation suggestion, if you may.

Now that Hardwired has been moved in the same place with Otaku Lounge and the like, the front page looks quite unbalanced (two forums in the first section, then six, and then three), and there really isn't anything "art-like" in the "Arts & Entertainment" section other than Art Studio, so why don't you move that to the "Creative Writing" section, renaming the sections something like "Entertainment" and "Creative Arts".

How would that sound? The procedure would be even simpler than moving Hardwired, plus it would make the front page look much more organized, in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
[size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]Yeah, Shy just said that.[/font][/color][/size]

[James]

[font=arial]Yep, it's on the way.[/font]