Saddam's Execution

[vegeta rocker]

As I'm sure everyone knows, Saddam Heussin (sp) was executed recently by hanging. The video has since made it's way onto the internet and is as easily found as Google Video.

I myself won't watch it, there are a few reasons, but i mostly don't believe in the death penalty. I know he did some horrible things but my opinion is if you can't create it then you have no right to take it.

Humans cannot create human life, so i feel we lack the right to take a life. He took many lives but what his this really solved? If anything he is now a Martyr and that is going to make his ideas and influence even harder to overcome.

It just proves to me that this was done not out of justice, but revenge and malice. If it had been about justice he would have been imprisoned the rest of his life showing his followers he had been brought to justice and was punished for it.

But killing him gives him power.

[Semjaza]

[quote name='vegeta rocker']Humans cannot create human life, so i feel we lack the right to take a life.[/quote]

I am not understanding this. How do you think people are born? Unless you're taking a "poof magically appear" approach to that.

[desertphoenix]

Yea the death penalty is a very odd thing to me. Believe it or not, it costs more to kill someone then to imprison them for life. So Ii kind of wonder what the point of it was, because it doesn't seem so well thought out. Some say as to be used as fear to prevent future acts from others. But with fanatics, him dead he's a Martyr( not really helping this whole war in Iraq deal). Torture would seem like the perfect solution, but it is considered inhumane. I guess a life sentence didn't cut it as a punishment.


And before i go. When a man loves a woman.... I'm kidding I'm kidding :D

[Albert Flasher]

[COLOR=Sienna]*shrug*

Not like his death is going to make Iraq magically go away or anything...[/COLOR]

[eleanor]

[color=dimgray] The only thing that irks me is how his trial was carried out. But that's done and over with, and it's up to Iraqi laws, not the US's. [/color]

[Baron Samedi]

[quote name='Generic NPC #3']I am not understanding this. How do you think people are born? Unless you're taking a "poof magically appear" approach to that.[/quote]
[size=1]Tony, you say some very silly things sometimes.[/size]
[center][img]http://oldstersview.wordpress.com/files/2006/06/stork_baby.gif[/img][/center]

[Zen]

[color=darkred][size=1]

I don't see the problem with the whole death penalty issue concerning guys like Saddam. The guy committed freakin' genocide. I thought they would have popped a cap in him when they found him in that hole he was hiding in.

I think the death penalty is a little extreme in some cases, but seriously, Saddam getting hung is, I think, going a little easy considering what he did to his 'fellow' human beings. I'm the first one to say that human life should be preserved, but sometimes that whole philosophy needs to be thrown out the door when extreme cases are presented. Such as the execution of a dictator/mass-murderer/rapist/sadist with a really thick mustache.

I'm suprised this is news here. I mean, usually when dictators are executed it's big news. Particularly when it's televised.


PS - Atleast he didn't go out like Mussolini. Real messy.[/color][/size]

[PWNED]

[QUOTE=desertphoenix] I guess a life sentence didn't cut it as a punishment.
[/QUOTE]

It's cause that Saddam is 69 years old right now and wouldn't be in jail for long until he carked it. The Death Penalty is the only way that justice would actually be served t othe Iraqi people.

[Guest Phaedrus]

Thou shalt not kill.

Corollary: Except if someone has killed other people, and then this holy-balls ten commandment is somehow null. Then you have the right to take someone's life because they killed others!

Don't mind the hypocrisy of such an action! Instead, turn your heads and look at Pittolie, or Opie, or whatever-other-celebrity! That's right: looking away and ignoring problems makes it so they're never solved, and it's like they never existed at all! Let the lawmen handle it--the ones who are usually incumbents and rich snobs with interest groups totally under their noses influencing every decision they make! Or let your president do it all for you. **** the American people--what use do THEY have in a government that was made for the people, by the people?

Let's be anti-abortion but pro-death!

Ha ha, ha, ha. Ha. Ha ha ha ha! HAHAHAHAH!

Rules: the only real ones aren't enforced, and the ones that are enforced were just meant to be broken, especially by the lawmen who put them in place, and the government which assures their citizenry's acquiescence to the law.

The funny thing is that by arbitrarily killing anyone you're creating echoes of revenge that will only more deeply afflict the separation of the world.

[vegeta rocker]

[quote name='Generic NPC #3']I am not understanding this. How do you think people are born? Unless you're taking a "poof magically appear" approach to that.[/quote]

I meant humanity as a whole, not just a person to person basis.

[Albert Flasher]

[quote name='PWNED']It's cause that Saddam is 69 years old right now and wouldn't be in jail for long until he carked it. The Death Penalty is the only way that justice would actually be served t othe Iraqi people.[/quote][COLOR=Sienna]

Justice? What justice? Saddam was already powerless, a caged madman... This was revenge. Cold, hard vengence. Nothing to do with justice.

Besides, things aren't a whole lot better in Iraq... Hell, they're a lot worse I'd argue. Saddam was a tyrant and a despot and he opressed his people... but at least he kept his country from degenerating into a mass of anarchy and religious zealotism. Say what you want about his methods, but it's pretty hard to say that anyone else would have done a better job in Saddam's position.

IMO the West is just using Saddam as a scapegoat. We caused the entire situation in the Middle East, especially the one in Iraq. When the Western Powers (The US and Britain especially) carved up the Ottoman Empire after WWI, we invented countries were there were none and ultimatly left the Kurds with no country to call their own (We also forced religious extremeists to co-exist with other religious extremeists, which is never a recipe for success.). This caused the Kurds to rebel (Rightfully so... they deserve Kurdistan) and forced Saddam to put them down or risk destabilizing his entire nation. We're just blaming him for a problem we caused...[/COLOR]

[Zen]

[QUOTE=Phaedrus]Thou shalt not kill.

Corollary: Except if someone has killed other people, and then this holy-balls ten commandment is somehow null. Then you have the right to take someone's life because they killed others!

Don't mind the hypocrisy of such an action! Instead, turn your heads and look at Pittolie, or Opie, or whatever-other-celebrity! That's right: looking away and ignoring problems makes it so they're never solved, and it's like they never existed at all! Let the lawmen handle it--the ones who are usually incumbents and rich snobs with interest groups totally under their noses influencing every decision they make! Or let your president do it all for you. **** the American people--what use do THEY have in a government that was made for the people, by the people?

Let's be anti-abortion but pro-death!

Ha ha, ha, ha. Ha. Ha ha ha ha! HAHAHAHAH!

Rules: the only real ones aren't enforced, and the ones that are enforced were just meant to be broken, especially by the lawmen who put them in place, and the government which assures their citizenry's acquiescence to the law.

The funny thing is that by arbitrarily killing anyone you're creating echoes of revenge that will only more deeply afflict the separation of the world.[/QUOTE]
[color=darkred][size=1]


I can't help but think this is a poke in my direction.

The Bible Says Thought Shalt Not Kill, but yet it is full of death, war, and smiting. I think when God said "Thought Shalt Not Kill" he meant in a cold-blooded murder type of way, like Saddam did. How else would you explain all that divine retribution in the Bible? I'm a Christian, but I'm also a liberal. While I don't have a decided stand on abortion, the last time I checked, a pure fetus isn't on the same spiritual level as a rapist genocide-committing, war criminal/dictator.

That whole echo of chaos thing sounds good on paper, but I bet if some psycho raped, tortured, and murdered your family, you'd want to blow his brains out in the most inhumane way. Think about it. Revenge isn't always a 'good' thing, but it's basic human process which everyone would more than likely commit unless you are, say, Jesus Christ himself. And even then, you only have two cheeks to turn.[/color][/size]

[Guest Phaedrus]

Death is the easy way out; your soul's loosed from the boundings of your body, skirmished into changing, and becomes some other form born anew, ready to be betrothed by the ethereal essence of the soul which still lays in some state like it was when it first left your body.

True punishment is living within the boundaries of your body and sitting in a cell mulling over what you've done. Perhaps Soddamn Insane would never, ever be able to fundamentally change and realize the terrible things he did; but in all those years he'd sit in that cell, he would be face-to-face with his own darkest, deepest fears which allowed him to do what he did. And I'm sure that when no one was looking he would be suffering. True suffering is not death. True suffering is life, and few are willing to look past the suffering and see that enthalpy is what it's all about, and to further see the wondrous beauty of not just this Earth, but what is beyond.

Your "bible" is just literature. God didn't write those words. Or anyway, "God" in the truest sense of the word didn't; maybe your "Him" God that people like you made up wrote it, but "He" was just an amalgamation of human ingenuity given some greatness that tries to give understanding and essence to the unknown.

God is an "it," and I do not know what other values it has. I am not going to arbitrarily smother on human values onto it, in order to give my life justification and meaning.

Do you have an actual quote from the bible where you think it could be interpreted to say, "killing is wrong, but it's all right to kill in revenge"?

It is [i]never[/i] right to kill in revenge. It only leads to more vengance. More and more of this eternal cycle of pointlessness that mankind's been charading about all these years of its existence.

Hmm. When do you think the ice age of separation and belief systems will melt, creating an onrushing global warming to awash men in awe?

Imagine all the people, living for today-----

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Phaedrus']True punishment is living within the boundaries of your body and sitting in a cell mulling over what you've done.[/quote]

[color=crimson]Not to be argumentative but Saddam wasn't really repenting in earnest as a captive for any 'crimes' he was charged with committing.

He was gardening, he was fed, a doctor was checking on him regularly, he smoked cigars.

It was restrictive and wildly different from the life as an autocrat he was living but by no means was he 'suffering' emotionally or physically during incarceration for what he had done.

And Mitch, enough man. You aren't a dreamer. You aren't a radical. You aren't a philosopher. You aren't the messiah. You are smart, you can write, you can think outside the box and all of that is admirable but you are far too preachy, far too addicted to perching yourself on a soapbox pretending to preach to the masses a vision that you are so, so sure that only you can see and yet in that you remain blind.

You are very intelligent but all of us aren't dull, dim bulbs in comparison.

Plus you can't sing like Lennon. :P[/color]

[Guest Phaedrus]

[QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]Not to be argumentative but Saddam wasn't really repenting in earnest as a captive for any 'crimes' he was charged with committing.

He was gardening, he was fed, a doctor was checking on him regularly, he smoked cigars.

It was restrictive and wildly different from the life as an autocrat he was living but by no means was he 'suffering' emotionally or physically during incarceration for what he had done.[/color][/QUOTE]

Yes, excellent point.

Our jail cells are far from any kind of punishment. More like an extended vacation in most ways.

I didn't make our jail system, but I definitely think it could be more reprimanding.

However, my point about the death penalty still stands.

[quote]And Mitch, enough man. You aren't a dreamer. You aren't a radical. You aren't a philosopher. You aren't the messiah. You are smart, you can write, you can think outside the box and all of that is admirable but you are far too preachy, far too addicted to perching yourself on a soapbox pretending to preach to the masses a vision that you are so, so sure that only you can see and yet in that you remain blind.

It's tiring.[/quote]

Yeah? Then go to sleep, perhaps eternally, if I'm so tiring. I'll continue dreaming open-eyed actualities. Sleeping awake.

If you find me so obnoxious, there's an "ignore" button for a reason.

I never said any of you were dim bulbs, by the way. You all are so beautiful, and have so much potential, and all your potentialities are different yet infinite if you choose to really pursue them. So go out there. Do what you can do. Change the world. I trust you, and I'm here in kindness anytime.

It's hard to get across intonations in text, you know. It is hard to truly make a reader hear you how you want them to. And perhaps this means I fail on some level as a writer--but it is a tricky business.

I've said this before, but perhaps it bears repeating: I say all I say in a sincere, sometimes satirical way. I'm not looking to cut anyone down. I'm just here to say what I have to say and that's all. If you agree, great; if you don't, that's even better.

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Phaedrus']If you find me so obnoxious, there's an "ignore" button for a reason.[/quote]

[color=crimson]Alternatively there is the possibility I might have a [i]point[/i] here, something to offer you about how you present your points of views and how it is perceived by the masses you are so addicted to dreaming aloud to.

There is that chance ever so slight as it may be, lol.[/color]

[quote name='Phaedrus']I never said any of you were dim bulbs, by the way. You all are so beautiful, and have so much potential, even if it isn't same to every unique individual. SO go out there. Do what you can do. Change the world. I trust you, and I'm here in kindness anytime.[/quote]

[color=crimson]That's how it sounds at times when you declare yourself to be a dreamer as if no one else here really dreams at all about things comparatively. Some probably lack the desire to speak aloud about it, others might not have the linguistic capability to and who knows why else all of us aren't appearing as you do.

There are many good people here like you said, many smart people and I believe them to hold much potential.[/color]

[Guest Phaedrus]

[QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]Alternatively there is the possibility I might have a [i]point[/i] here, something to offer you about how you present your points of views and how it is perceived by the masses you are so addicted to dreaming aloud to.

There is that chance ever so slight as it may be, lol.[/color]



[color=crimson]That's how it sounds at times when you declare yourself to be a dreamer as if no one else here really dreams at all about things comparatively. Some probably lack the desire to speak aloud about it, others might not have the linguistic capability to and who knows why else all of us aren't appearing as you do.

There are many good people here like you said, many smart people and I believe them to hold much potential.[/color][/QUOTE]

Basically, I'm just having fun making a "persona." Phaedrus is my persona, and if you've read ZAMM you understand what aspects of my writings on this messageboard are taken from there. In the end, though, Phaedrus is unique in and of itself as a persona on this messageboard; there is a lot of me in there. And I'm sure I do come off as annoying, but I'm just very blunt and willing to express myself. If you don't like it, you don't like it, and that's cool with me.

More or less I'm frustrated with how many people exist in this world, and I suppose that is what you're getting coming through in the text. It definitely manifests itself, and is one of my main annoyances. This isn't to say everyone here lives like that, but I tend to speak out to that kind of audience, and I also seek to present ideas that are often antithetical to the general agreement in a thread just for the sake of some activity and for the sake of expanding minds.

It's funny how my persona is reminiscent of another, certain poison-tongu'd one in some ways. Must be bits of homage.

[Bent Metal]

I personally would have rather have seen Saddam spend a life of suffering in a horrible prison. I'm not entirely opposed to the death penalty, but I have the feeling that Saddam's execution was unavoidable.

For two reasons,

a) Any chance of his escape is nul once he is executed. There are millions who think he deserves to be in prison, but others worship this man, and believe that his imprisonment is a huge injustice. And these aren't just your everyday protestors. These are people who would go to any length to achieve their causes including the sacrifice of their own lives. His execution means there is no chance for him to be broken out of prison and freed.

b) What he represents. Its not necessarily how much power he has or how he could influence his people in the future, but moreso the image he represents, his values and his legacy. It may not solve any problems in Iraq. But it offers small comfort to his victims, and closes a chapter on Iraqs history.

[vegeta rocker]

[QUOTE=desertphoenix]

And before i go. When a man loves a woman.... I'm kidding I'm kidding :D[/QUOTE]

LOL

Baron Samedi lied about the Stork!

*dies inside*

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=Albert Flasher][COLOR=Sienna]Justice? What justice? Saddam was already powerless, a caged madman... This was revenge. Cold, hard vengence. Nothing to do with justice.

Besides, things aren't a whole lot better in Iraq... Hell, they're a lot worse I'd argue. Saddam was a tyrant and a despot and he opressed his people... but at least he kept his country from degenerating into a mass of anarchy and religious zealotism. Say what you want about his methods, but it's pretty hard to say that anyone else would have done a better job in Saddam's position.

IMO the West is just using Saddam as a scapegoat. We caused the entire situation in the Middle East, especially the one in Iraq. When the Western Powers (The US and Britain especially) carved up the Ottoman Empire after WWI, we invented countries were there were none and ultimatly left the Kurds with no country to call their own (We also forced religious extremeists to co-exist with other religious extremeists, which is never a recipe for success.). This caused the Kurds to rebel (Rightfully so... they deserve Kurdistan) and forced Saddam to put them down or risk destabilizing his entire nation. We're just blaming him for a problem we caused...[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Quoted for truth. Everything AF has said here is not only correct but he's the first person to bring in some historical context to his argument. Saddam may not have been a good man, but given the shitstorm he had to work with because of WW2's Allied powers and constant interference, it's a wonder he managed to hold the country in the relatively religious-neutral state he managed to. Take a gander at his neighbours in Iran and you'll see how bad it could have been.

I'm reality I'm not at all surprised at this happening, the Iraqis will get no real value out of Saddam's death, he'll become a martyr to the very groups he spent years trying to defeat and the Americans can look forward to being accused to simply "bumping off" one of their old enemies under the guise of an Iraqi court. There's no winners here, Saddam should have faced a U.N. war crimes tribunal, had the chance to defend his actions and then been judged guilty or innocent based in independent evidence and unbiased judges.

That's pretty much my opinion on this travesty of justice.[/SIZE]

[Tekkaman]

[size=1][quote name='vegeta rocker][size=1']Humans cannot create human life, so i feel we lack the right to take a life.[/size][/quote] [/size][font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=darkorchid]Well... since this question has already been ripped apart by others, I won't say anything. It was worth noting, though.[/color][/size][/font]

[size=1][color=#8b0000][QUOTE=The Boss] [size=1][color=#8b0000]The Bible Says Thought Shalt Not Kill, but yet it is full of death, war, and smiting. I think when God said "Thought Shalt Not Kill" he meant in a cold-blooded murder type of way, like Saddam did. How else would you explain all that divine retribution in the Bible? I'm a Christian, but I'm also a liberal. While I don't have a decided stand on abortion, the last time I checked, a pure fetus isn't on the same spiritual level as a rapist genocide-committing, war criminal/dictator.

That whole echo of chaos thing sounds good on paper, but I bet if some psycho raped, tortured, and murdered your family, you'd want to blow his brains out in the most inhumane way. Think about it. Revenge isn't always a 'good' thing, but it's basic human process which everyone would more than likely commit unless you are, say, Jesus Christ himself. And even then, you only have two cheeks to turn.[/color][/size][/QUOTE] [/color][/size][font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=darkorchid][b]*Raises Bible in the air*[/b][/color][/size][/font]

[font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=darkorchid]Preach Preacher![/color][/size][/font]

[font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=darkorchid]Personally, I saw the video and watched the noose being wrapped around his neck while his own people mocked him. True. The ol' school way of death (i.e. hanging, stoning, etc...) sucks; true, watching that noose being wrapped around his neck gave me the shivers (By the way, cell phones should not be allowed to death sentences anymore), but honestly, that murderer deserved every bit of it, period. He problably deserved worse but that's not my call.[/color][/size][/font]

[Hanabishi Recca]

[QUOTE=The Boss][color=darkred][size=1]
The Bible Says Thought Shalt Not Kill, but yet it is full of death, war, and smiting. I think when God said "Thought Shalt Not Kill" he meant in a cold-blooded murder type of way, like Saddam did. How else would you explain all that divine retribution in the Bible? I'm a Christian, but I'm also a liberal. While I don't have a decided stand on abortion, the last time I checked, a pure fetus isn't on the same spiritual level as a rapist genocide-committing, war criminal/dictator.[/color][/size][/QUOTE]

First of all, I would like to say, its nice to see you are alive. I'm not sure if you have been very active lately. I guess I haven't seen you though, so I wasn't sure.

*laughs*

Oh how your post amuses me though! The Bible said that in the old testament and we are in the new. The law was laid out because of the people not even being able to contain themselves from sin. Making it (the law) a way that they would actually want to follow it and act correctly (if they didn't - well they get the stoned/whatever).

So, that being said, you look at Jesus Christ himself. What did he do? Did he love or hate? Did he kill or make life? Did he do good or bad? Was he righteous or sinful? Now with that, the Bible also says that we should act like him (Romans). If we are to act like him we should love like him. God is love - Satan is hatred. God is kind - Satan is rude. [i]God brings life - Satan ends it[/i].

Now of course I'm not taking sides. I just wanted you guys to know my input. I know Saddam would have died either way (kia or executed). I knew he would die. I don't care what anyone says. He would die no matter what he did.

Dae

[Tekkaman]

[QUOTE=Hanabishi Recca]
Oh how your post amuses me though! The Bible said that in the old testament and we are in the new. The law was laid out because of the people not even being able to contain themselves from sin. Making it (the law) a way that they would actually want to follow it and act correctly (if they didn't - well they get the stoned/whatever).[/QUOTE] [font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=darkorchid]Though you're giving out your personal opinion to 'Boss', I'll answer this in his absence in my own way:[/color][/size][/font]

[font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=darkorchid]Whether or not the Bible quote The Boss used is old or new Testament, it is the bible regardless. On top of that, God is omnipotent and all that jazz, right? Well, if that's the case, and if the Bible is God's word on paper-format, then technically he never contradicted himself; whatever is in the Bible, despite evolution of laws, shouldn't be thrown aside.[/color][/size][/font]

[Hanabishi Recca]

[QUOTE=Tekkaman][font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=darkorchid]
[font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=darkorchid]Whether or not the Bible quote The Boss used is old or new Testament, it is the bible regardless. On top of that, God is omnipotent and all that jazz, right? Well, if that's the case, and if the Bible is God's word on paper-format, then technically he never contradicted himself; whatever is in the Bible, despite evolution of laws, shouldn't be thrown aside.[/color][/size][/font][/QUOTE]

Jesus has always been love. I'm talking about this age and the old age. The old age was the ten commandments. Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not steal. Thou shall not lie (false witness if you care). All of that was in the old testament. We are in the new, and Jesus is here. The Bible says that we should be like him. That the world should see our good works. The new testament commandment: Thou shalt love one another as I have loved you (John 15:12).

[Tekkaman]

[QUOTE=Hanabishi Recca]
Jesus has always been love. I'm talking about this age and the old age. The old age was the ten commandments. Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not steal. Thou shall not lie (false witness if you care). All of that was in the old testament. We are in the new, and Jesus is here. The Bible says that we should be like him. That the world should see our good works. The new testament commandment: Thou shalt love one another as I have loved you (John 15:12).[/QUOTE] [font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=darkorchid]Though we're in the New Testament, the Old Testament rules (i.e. The 10 Commandments) still apply, even until this day.[/color][/size][/font]

[font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=darkorchid]I'll stop now, because we're getting off topic.[/color][/size][/font]