Saddam's Execution

[nezzyjean]

I personally think that it is kindof sick and cruel that they have a video of it that just anyone can go on the internet and watch.

But whats even crueler is that my friend's dad thought that they should've waited until new years eve to do it, and then behead him, and watch it like the big ball dropping at midnight, except instead of watching a ball drop, you watch the guiottine fall. (he was just kidding thank god).

I'm surprised that bombs haven't been dropped over here yet. I know we didn't hold the trials or make the sentence, but those "terrorists" will probably blame us anyway.

[desertphoenix]

[QUOTE=nezzyjean]
But whats even crueler is that my friend's dad thought that they should've waited until new years eve to do it, and then behead him, and watch it like the big ball dropping at midnight, except instead of watching a ball drop, you watch the guiottine fall. (he was just kidding thank god).

[/QUOTE]

That was funny in a way that made you feel like you were going to hell for laughing about it. But it might just be the quote for my new signature. Your dad's friends should look into stand-up, i'm kidding i'm kidding. Me myself couldn't possibly insist a cruel fate of a man, but it wasn't my choice and i didn't have to carry it out. That is the only comfort i have.

[Fasteriskhead]

I'm not necessarily a fan of state executions, but I can't see how anyone with a thought in their head could see this as even being one that was done well. This thread, I think, should [i]not[/i] be (or at least, is less helpful as) an abstract discussion about whether capital punishment is acceptable. It's whether this [i]one[/i] execution at all lived up to whatever it was supposed to be, and what effects it will have. I think the answers are, in order: not in the least, and extremely bad in the long run.

Look at the facts. Saddam was being held under the Geneva Conventions, and prior to the execution was in fact [i]at that moment[/i] in trial for committing genocide against the Kurds in the '80s and early '90s. That trial, as well as many others addressing additional crimes, will now never be completed - at best the Kurds and the rest of the Iraqis might see "justice" done to Saddam's underlings and yes-men. He was convicted and executed for the murder of 143 Shiites in Dujail, and that's it - he will never be brought to account for the countless thousands of other deaths that he caused, and while Iraqis may take a brief amount of pleasure in seeing him finally dead, that's no substitute for the process of justice and resolution that has now been aborted.

Make no mistake: the reason Saddam's execution happened now is a political one. There are good ways of getting rid of a deposed head of state - ways that will allow him to be quickly forgotten - and then there are bad ones. What happened here, as almost everyone seems to agree, is that al-Maliki and the Iraqi appeals court thought it was more important to make the extremists in the Shiite majority (and particularly the followers of Muqtada Sadr) happy than to continue the process of exposing and trying the crimes of a butcher of thousands. The execution itself (I take it everyone's already seen the video) should have been the somber and dignified end to the life of a humiliated dictator - instead it was a spectacle for a mob, where practically the only somber one was the guy being killed. The authorities should have made sure that there was no chance of Saddam's becoming a martyr - now he's practically [i]guaranteed[/i] to be one, and his grave in Tikrit will almost certainly become a pilgrimage site for angry Sunnis.

In any case, whatever the resolution of the trial (and it really should have been trialS, plural) of Saddam Hussein was (be it execution or something else), what was most crucial was that it would close the coffin on a quarter-century of abusive authoritarian rule and make a clean start for Iraq as a whole. Instead, the original intent of having justice done has been thrown away in favor of the petty sectarian politics which the Iraqi government had once tried to do away with. Saddam was killed in such a way that the "Mahdi Army" is further legitimated by the Shiite-dominated government, the Kurds have the trial for crimes of genocide committed against them suddenly cut off, and the insurgent Shiites get a martyr to admire and further justification for civil war. What should have been a point of unification is now going to fragment things more; I certainly hope the Iraqi government (and with them the US military, which never voiced a real word of protest) is proud of themselves.

[Rachmaninoff]

I can't say that I'm upset over Saddam being executed. I haven't watched the video in question, but I would imagine that no matter how he was dealt with, those who don't believe in the death penalty are going to object regardless of how the deed was done.

The one thing I do know, provided all the information we've been told about him is correct, is that if those who executed him feel his punishment fit the crime then it's not my place to tell them how they can or can't dispense what they consider to be justice. Though I?m sure others can argue that it was more politics than justice and on some level I would agree.

Though I'm sure all the BS that's going to occur as a result won't be much fun. Especially since I don't think it was possible to deal with him without others finding a way to turn him into a martyr. Dead or Alive.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']Though I'm sure all the BS that's going to occur as a result won't be much fun. Especially since I don't think it was possible to deal with him without others finding a way to turn him into a martyr. Dead or Alive.[/quote]
[size=1]Oh, come now! Fully preventable and reactionary sectarian violence is always a good time. And it's must easier to make a martyr out of a man who supposedly died for a cause as opposed to being captured and imprisoned. I mean, there weren't riots until he was hanged, right?[/size]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']Oh, come now! Fully preventable and reactionary sectarian violence is always a good time. And it's must easier to make a martyr out of a man who supposedly died for a cause as opposed to being captured and imprisoned. I mean, there weren't riots until he was hanged, right?[/size][/quote]I don't know about it being a good time, or that making a martyr out of someone who died for a cause vs. life imprisonment is easier for one than the other. In declaring them a martyr that is.

In the end regardless if he is in prison or dead, someone can take that and use it to fire up more violence. There may not have been riots before the hanging, but it's too soon to honestly say if they are going to continue or not. And if they had decided to put him away in a cell for life, people might have started riots over keeping him detained instead of setting him free.

It's easy to think the other solution would have worked better when it was never implemented. Which is why I said there would be BS issues whether or not he was Dead or Alive.

Personally I think he sort of earned the death penalty. He was responsible for a lot of chaos and people being killed.

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=Rachmaninoff]
Personally I think he sort of earned the death penalty. He was responsible for a lot of chaos and people being killed.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Sienna]There was (And is) a lot of chaos in Iraq, but he sure as hell wasn't responsible for it. [/COLOR]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Albert Flasher][COLOR=Sienna']There was (And is) a lot of chaos in Iraq, but he sure as hell wasn't responsible for it. [/COLOR][/quote]I don't mean the current chaos or that he is responsible for what's going on in Iraq, I mean in regards to those people who died due to his actions. I wasn't clear on that the first time, sorry.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']I don't know about it being a good time,[/quote]
[size=1]Is my edge really that blunted these days? It was sarcasm.

[QUOTE]or that making a martyr out of someone who died for a cause vs. life imprisonment is easier for one than the other. In declaring them a martyr that is.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I would definitely argue it's easier to idealize and therefore prop them up to be a martyr if they're dead. There's a greater power to being killed than being imprisoned, in terms of your follower's response. For instance, Dr. King was imprisoned (Letter from a Birmingham Jail, anyone?) but there wasn't really any outrage when compared to when he was assassinated. Yes, there were riots and police-civilian clashes when he was killed. Not when he was imprisoned.

[quote]In the end regardless if he is in prison or dead, someone can take that and use it to fire up more violence. There may not have been riots before the hanging, but it's too soon to honestly say if they are going to continue or not. And if they had decided to put him away in a cell for life, people might have started riots over keeping him detained instead of setting him free.[/quote]
As far as I could tell, the kettle of Iraq was on simmer when Saddam was imprisoned, and considering the duration of his imprisonment prior to his execution, I'm willing to hazard that there wasn't going to be any sectarian violence or threat of civil war from it. But then he was executed, and all of the sudden things are boiling over.[/size]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']Is my edge really that blunted these days? It was sarcasm.[/size][/quote]

[color=dimgray] lol

Yeah anyways, I was skimming through Newsweek's article on this and I came across a good quote: "I feel like we should let Saddam out of jail and say, 'Sorry, we didn't realize you were so brutal because you had to be," (from a US Special Operations member).

So my thoughts on Saddam's execution is mostly who the hell is going to become the new leader of Iraq. Successfully. I sort of don't see it happening without a lot of violence. [/color]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1]Is my edge really that blunted these days? It was sarcasm.[/size][/QUOTE]No just my newbie lack of an edge in discerning what is meant as sarcasm on a message board. ;) [QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]Oh, I would definitely argue it's easier to idealize and therefore prop them up to be a martyr if they're dead. There's a greater power to being killed than being imprisoned, in terms of your follower's response. For instance, Dr. King was imprisoned (Letter from a Birmingham Jail, anyone?) but there wasn't really any outrage when compared to when he was assassinated. Yes, there were riots and police-civilian clashes when he was killed. Not when he was imprisoned.[/size][/QUOTE]Hmmm?I?ll concede the point. [QUOTE=Retribution][size=1']As far as I could tell, the kettle of Iraq was on simmer when Saddam was imprisoned, and considering the duration of his imprisonment prior to his execution, I'm willing to hazard that there wasn't going to be any sectarian violence or threat of civil war from it. But then he was executed, and all of the sudden things are boiling over.[/size][/quote]I guess since there are constant reports of problems over in Iraq it gives the impression that it is never on any form of simmer, but rather different phases of destruction that vary in their intensity. With the execution of Saddam being one of the high points.

[vegeta rocker]

[QUOTE=Tekkaman][size=1] [/size][font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=darkorchid]Well... since this question has already been ripped apart by others, I won't say anything. It was worth noting, though.
.[/color][/size][/font][/QUOTE]

My statement was not ripped apart, it was just too vague and was taken a certain way. I meant it as we as people cannot create human life as a race.

We didn't create human life, we act as vessels. Well thats my opinion anyway.

As for the execution, it was ignorant. Just proves how vengeful the entire thing was.

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][QUOTE=vegeta rocker]I know he did some horrible things but my opinion is if you can't create it then you have no right to take it.

Humans cannot create human life, so i feel we lack the right to take a life.[/QUOTE]Try explaining that to those who do take it. Whether or not we create life, and that?s another discussion altogether since humans do create life by having children, the argument that we don?t would seem to fall under the religious concept that our souls come from heaven. So saying we can?t create life isn?t exactly a fact but rather one of a religious belief or viewpoint. Those who believe in souls would argue that we can?t create them and others who do not would argue that life is created through reproduction. [quote name='vegeta rocker'] If anything he is now a Martyr and that is going to make his ideas and influence even harder to overcome. [/quote]Only to some groups, plenty of others are happy that he was punished for his crimes. Just read the papers, as those who suffered due to his actions were glad he was dealt with. [QUOTE=vegeta rocker]It just proves to me that this was done not out of justice, but revenge and malice. If it had been about justice he would have been imprisoned the rest of his life showing his followers he had been brought to justice and was punished for it.

But killing him gives him power.[/QUOTE]One man?s justice is another man?s revenge. Your viewpoint is that it was revenge, but others will disagree since they do not view the death penalty as revenge. That too is subjective as not everyone agrees as to what is considered justice.

His death may give the illusion of power, but Iraq has been anything but stable for decades. In time, they?ll find some other reason for violence and Saddam will fade into the background like all former Dictators often do.

About the only thing I disagree with is the video on the Internet and even then it was supposedly done by someone acting on their own and not by the government. [/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='indifference][COLOR=DarkRed']About the only thing I disagree with is the video on the Internet and even then it was supposedly done by someone acting on their own and not by the government. [/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]Part of me believes that if you support the death penalty, you should watch what you're asking for. Kind of like how cops have to take mace to the eyes before being authorized to use it, just so they know how it feels on a human being.[/size]

[Zen]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']Part of me believes that if you support the death penalty, you should watch what you're asking for. Kind of like how cops have to take mace to the eyes before being authorized to use it, just so they know how it feels on a human being.[/size][/quote]
[color=darkred][size=1]


And so that they use it with discretion, which should be the same case with the death penalty. I know that part of me would feel a little queesy watching a guy get hung, but the other part of me would also remember the much more awful things that Saddam did to people.

Am I alone in this feeling?[/color][/size]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=The Boss][color=darkred][size=1]


And so that they use it with discretion, which should be the same case with the death penalty. I know that part of me would feel a little queesy watching a guy get hung, but the other part of me would also remember the much more awful things that Saddam did to people.

Am I alone in this feeling?[/color][/size][/QUOTE]
[size=1]No, I think you're right. Except instead of just limiting the use of capital punishment, it might be a means of ending it. But having people understanding what they're asking for is rarely a bad thing.[/size]

[Zen]

[color=darkred][size=1]

I don't know. There are alot of brutal people out there who would either revel in it, or just not care. I mean, not everyone is as humane as us liberal message-boarders, haha.

I'm the kinda guy who thinks that the death penalty should be used, but only in extreme cases such as Saddam or an adult charged with multiple homicides.

(All those cases of teenage kids getting the chair are just crazy. I mean, we gotta set the limit. If you're not old enough to vote in your country, then that country shouldn't have the right to kill you, nah mean? Now prison is a different story.)

But I have a firm belief that Saddam deserved what he got.[/color][/size]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][quote name='Retribution][size=1']Part of me believes that if you support the death penalty, you should watch what you're asking for. Kind of like how cops have to take mace to the eyes before being authorized to use it, just so they know how it feels on a human being.[/size][/quote]What makes you think I haven't? My disagreement is more along the lines that it was thrown out there without the consent of the Iraq government.

Retribution, watching someone get executed is a hell of a lot less messy and sickening than being right next to someone when they get shot in the head and you get splattered with their blood. An experience I hope I never get to repeat. I've also worked with victims of domestic violence that are so battered and bloody that's amazing they can even walk.

About the only thing I haven't experienced is being executed myself since unlike mace the effects of execution are permanent. If Iraq or other governments choose to openly display the videos that?s fine by me. I just disagree with the idiot who put it up even though they knew they weren?t suppose to. And that's my bad for not being more clear on what I objected to. ;)[/COLOR]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=Teal][quote name='Retribution][size=1]Part of me believes that if you support the death penalty, you should watch what you're asking for. Kind of like how cops have to take mace to the eyes before being authorized to use it, just so they know how it feels on a human being.[/size][/QUOTE][QUOTE=Retribution][size=1']No, I think you're right. Except instead of just limiting the use of capital punishment, it might be a means of ending it. But having people understanding what they're asking for is rarely a bad thing.[/size][/quote]Making it a requirement to watch what happens when someone is put to death isn't the answer to getting rid of the Death Penalty. If that were true, all the videos and pictures of what happens to people during war would have ended wars a very long time ago. Since those are usually far more violent and people still find reasons to fight and kill others. I doubt that showing executions would really make any difference.

I'm not for the Death Penalty, and at the same time I can understand why Saddam was executed, as he was responsible for killing so many people.
[/COLOR]

[Tekkaman]

[color=#ff0000][QUOTE=Aaryanna][/color]
[color=#ff0000][color=#ff0000]Making it a requirement to watch what happens when someone is put to death isn't the answer to getting rid of the Death Penalty. If that were true, all the videos and pictures of what happens to people during war would have ended wars a very long time ago. Since those are usually far more violent and people still find reasons to fight and kill others. I doubt that showing executions would really make any difference.

I'm not for the Death Penalty, and at the same time I can understand why Saddam was executed, as he was responsible for killing so many people.[/color][/QUOTE][/color][font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=black] I totally agree with you on this, but still...[/color][/size][/font]

[color=#ff0000][QUOTE] [color=#ff0000]...and at the same time I can understand why Saddam was executed, as he was responsible for killing so many people.[/color][/QUOTE] [font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=black]They didn't have to record it on a cell phone and get it 'released' later on though (Whether the footage was stolen or not, I don't know). Watching the noose being wrapped around his neck while his own people mocked him... [color=black][b]*sighs*[/b][/color] Man, that must've sucked, ya know?[/color][/size][/font][/color][color=#ff0000][font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=black] Though Saddam deserved it, I actually felt bad for the guy.[/color][/size][/font]

[size=1][color=#8b0000][QUOTE=The Boss][/color][/size]
[size=1][color=#8b0000][size=1][color=#8b0000]I'm the kinda guy who thinks that the death penalty should be used, but only in extreme cases such as Saddam or an adult charged with multiple homicides.[/color][/size][/QUOTE] [font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=black]Let's not forget about microwaving babies (Another OB thread). That's definitely cause for the death penalty.[/color][/size][/font][/color][/size]

[size=1][color=darkred][size=1][QUOTE][size=1][color=darkred][size=1]But I have a firm belief that Saddam deserved what he got.[/size][/color][/size][/QUOTE] [/size][/color][/size]
[size=1][color=#8b0000][color=darkred][size=1][QUOTE][size=1][color=#8b0000][color=darkred][size=1]I know that part of me would feel a little queesy watching a guy get hung, but the other part of me would also remember the much more awful things that Saddam did to people. Am I alone in this feeling?[/size][/color][/color][/size][/QUOTE] [/size][/color][font=Palatino Linotype][size=2][color=black]I feel the same way, bro. Trust me.[/color][/size][/font][/color][/size]
[/color]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=Teal][quote name='Tekkaman] [font=Palatino Linotype][size=2]They didn't have to record it on a cell phone and get it 'released' later on though (Whether the footage was stolen or not, I don't know). Watching the noose being wrapped around his neck while his own people mocked him... [/font'][/size][/quote]I was going on this:

[INDENT]Rikabi said cell phones and cameras were collected from witnesses after the execution in an attempt to prevent such an incident.[/INDENT]
Which was in this article in the paper here in Utah: [URL=http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/205685/]Article[/URL] Which if you read further indicates that they had no intention of releasing the video in that manner. They apparently were only going to release enough to verify to others that the person who was executed was indeed Saddam. [/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='indifference][COLOR=DarkRed']What makes you think I haven't? My disagreement is more along the lines that it was thrown out there without the consent of the Iraq government.[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]I never said you hadn't. I was mostly saying that the video being released enabled people to watch what they were wishing so fervently for.

[quote name='Aaryanna][COLOR=Teal']Making it a requirement to watch what happens when someone is put to death isn't the answer to getting rid of the Death Penalty.[/COLOR][/quote]
I never said it was "the" answer. I said it was a means of moving towards the abolition of capital punishment.

[QUOTE][COLOR=Teal]If that were true, all the videos and pictures of what happens to people during war would have ended wars a very long time ago. Since those are usually far more violent and people still find reasons to fight and kill others. I doubt that showing executions would really make any difference.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
I think if people (particularly those in America) fully understood the brutality of war, we'd be much more reluctant to go invade other countries. This might have something to do with why Europe isn't too crazy about running off and fighting places. They have been ravaged by war over and over again, so their people have a better grip on what it's actually like. Again, I don't expect it to [i]end[/i] the death penalty just as I wouldn't expect the pictures of war to stop war. I think if people weren't so far removed from the issues, they'd make different choices.[/size]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][quote name='Retribution][size=1]I think if people (particularly those in America) fully understood the brutality of war, we'd be much more reluctant to go invade other countries. This might have something to do with why Europe isn't too crazy about running off and fighting places. They have been ravaged by war over and over again, so their people have a better grip on what it's actually like. Again, I don't expect it to [i]end[/i'] the death penalty just as I wouldn't expect the pictures of war to stop war. I think if people weren't so far removed from the issues, they'd make different choices.[/size][/quote]Correct me if I'm wrong, but just which American people are you referring to? Because last time I checked, the regular American was not given a say as to whether or not our leaders chose to go to war. Because if that were the case, I'd be voting no on a regular basis. The only ones lacking reluctance are those fools in charge, which by the way I did not vote for.

I know you don't mean it that way Retribution, but not all Americans are eager for those senseless wars Bush and others are so fond of. And nearly half of the counted popular votes when the last election was held were not for Bush either. And I would think the recent elections giving the Democrats more power in the Senate would show that the rest of America is equally as tired of the mess created by those in charge. [/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=indifference][COLOR=DarkRed]Correct me if I'm wrong, but just which American people are you referring to? Because last time I checked, the regular American was not given a say as to whether or not our leaders chose to go to war. Because if that were the case, I'd be voting no on a regular basis. The only ones lacking reluctance are those fools in charge, which by the way I did not vote for.

I know you don't mean it that way Retribution, but not all Americans are eager for those senseless wars Bush and others are so fond of. And nearly half of the counted popular votes when the last election was held were not for Bush either. And I would think the recent elections giving the Democrats more power in the Senate would show that the rest of America is equally as tired of the mess created by those in charge. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[size=1]If the American people had expressed genuine outrage when Bush decided to go to Iraq, I don't think he would have. I mean, the public approval rating for the invasion was definitely above 50% when he did it. If it the invasion had the 35% approval rating he has now, he might have thought twice about it. But instead, everyone was gung-ho about kicking some international ***. Sure, there were people who knew Iraq was a bad idea from the get-go, and I'm not talking to them. But let's not act like the pro-Iraqi invasion folks were a minority in 2003.

The American people play a significant role in government. [i]They[/i] represent [i]us[/i], and they lose their jobs if they piss us off. Isn't that great power?[/size]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][QUOTE=Retribution][size=1] Sure, there were people who knew Iraq was a bad idea from the get-go, and I'm not talking to them. But let's not act like the pro-Iraqi invasion folks were a minority in 2003.

The American people play a significant role in government. [i]They[/i] represent [i]us[/i], and they lose their jobs if they piss us off. Isn't that great power?[/size][/QUOTE]Then in that case your post doesn't really apply to me since I was opposed to it from the very beginning. And your right about people supporting the idea, I got a lot of criticism from others who felt I was being unpatriotic, even though I see nothing patriotic about war.

Also, lets not act like being pro-Iraqi invasion would have made a difference. It won't be the first time poor decisions have been made, regardless of whether or not the public approved. My point was that though Bush may have had support, there were plenty of people who didn't want him for a president to begin with.

I agree that they play a significant role, which is why I mentioned the change in power in the Senate. If people were happy with how things were being done, they wouldn't have voted to shift the power like they did. [/COLOR]