Saddam's Execution

[Retribution]

[quote name='indifference][COLOR=DarkRed']Then in that case your post doesn't really apply to me since I was opposed to it from the very beginning.[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]Precisely.

[QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed]Also, lets not act like being pro-Iraqi invasion would have made a difference. It won't be the first time poor decisions have been made, regardless of whether or not the public approved. My point was that though Bush may have had support, there were plenty of people who didn't want him for a president to begin with.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Bush wouldn't have invaded had the current public approval been below 50%. He invaded to raise his approval (IMO), so wouldn't such an action be self-defeating? The decision was made based off the fact everyone was pissed because we couldn't find Osama, and Bush didn't want people mad at him. So what does he do? Crucifies some other Middle Eastern country.[/size]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][quote name='Retribution][size=1']Bush wouldn't have invaded had the current public approval been below 50%. He invaded to raise his approval (IMO), so wouldn't such an action be self-defeating? The decision was made based off the fact everyone was pissed because we couldn't find Osama, and Bush didn't want people mad at him. So what does he do? Crucifies some other Middle Eastern country.[/size][/quote]Probably, but not all leaders have been smart in that respect. In the end I think it's sad that instead of owning up to not being able to find Osama, he turned and pretty much tore apart Iraq to cover for it. I'd rather have people mad at me than be responsible for messing up other people's lives on that scale. It's sickening to think of how many innocent people have died because of Bush's fear of having the American people mad at him.

Anyway...hopefully things will calm down from Saddam's execution and Iraq can finally start getting back on it's feet for a change. [/COLOR]

[Zen]

[QUOTE=indifference][COLOR=DarkRed]Probably, but not all leaders have been smart in that respect. In the end I think it's sad that instead of owning up to not being able to find Osama, he turned and pretty much tore apart Iraq to cover for it. I'd rather have people mad at me than be responsible for messing up other people's lives on that scale. It's sickening to think of how many innocent people have died because of Bush's fear of having the American people mad at him.

Anyway...hopefully things will calm down from Saddam's execution and Iraq can finally start getting back on it's feet for a change. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[color=darkred][size=1]


Amen. I've been waiting for an exit since early last year when I first heard of a possible withdraw.

And yet Bush in his infinite knowledge still doesn't think 'the job is done'. And I do remember some years ago him saying so proudly "Mission Accomplished" after such a dramatic entrance.

I just hope that Saddam's execution doesn't worsen the process. He may become a martyr for his supporting groups and they'll probably have a rallying cry due to his death. Hopefully Iraqi Police will have enough training to get the job done themselves soon.[/color][/size]

[Retribution]

[quote name='The Boss][color=darkred][size=1]And yet Bush in his infinite knowledge still doesn't think 'the job is done'. And I do remember some years ago him saying so proudly "Mission Accomplished" after such a dramatic entrance.[/color'][/size][/quote]
[IMG]http://www.phillyist.com/attachments/philly_nicole/mission-accomplished.jpg[/IMG]

[size=1]I think that picture on the White House website has the banner cropped out.[/size]

[Zen]

[color=darkred][size=1]

*add thought bubble*

[i]"Maybe this'll buy me some time..."[/i][/color][/size]

[Roleni-Chan]

Well, as for the hanging...I dont see how bad was it...I mean, are we worst than him to see him die? I really not sure. But I heard a kid did the same thing and past away...Im not sure.

[vegeta rocker]

Yeah, some kid was acting out the execution. His sister helped him hang himself.

I guess they either watched it with their parents and weren't talked to about the danger or watched it with their friends.

[demonboy]

[QUOTE=vegeta rocker]Yeah, some kid was acting out the execution. His sister helped him hang himself.

I guess they either watched it with their parents and weren't talked to about the danger or watched it with their friends.[/QUOTE]
The most likely possibility is that they're complete effing morons who deserve a Darwin Award, or at least an honorable mention.

[Gavin]

[QUOTE=vegeta rocker]Yeah, some kid was acting out the execution. His sister helped him hang himself.

I guess they either watched it with their parents and weren't talked to about the danger or watched it with their friends.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Probably the latter rather than the former, it's sad to think how easily influenced the poor kid could be to try and act out a hanging after seeing it. Maybe this story might convince some of those die-hard [no pun intended] death penalty supporters to rethink their position, it's not likely but it might give them something to think about.

What you'll probably get is some bad joke about how even after he's dead, Saddam can still kill people. [/SIZE]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=Teal][QUOTE=Gavin][SIZE=1]Probably the latter rather than the former, it's sad to think how easily influenced the poor kid could be to try and act out a hanging after seeing it. Maybe this story might convince some of those die-hard [no pun intended] death penalty supporters to rethink their position, it's not likely but it might give them something to think about.

What you'll probably get is some bad joke about how even after he's dead, Saddam can still kill people. [/SIZE][/QUOTE]Then we should also use the same logic to get rid of guns since kids see stuff on TV, don't realized the danger and play with them and some end up dead when they accidentally shoot the other kid they are playing with. My mom even knows several parents who have lost a kid to this type of accident, even though the parents in question kept the guns locked up. The kids found a way to get into the cabinet anyway so they could act out those apparently cool gunfights they?ve seen on TV.

It's a good idea, but I can't help but think it's flawed. I don't agree with the Death Penalty, but at the same time when it's applied to someone who is a mass murderer, at that point I'm thinking they deserved it.[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Aaryanna][COLOR=Teal']I don't agree with the Death Penalty, but at the same time when it's applied to someone who is a mass murderer, at that point I'm thinking they deserved it.[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]Does a person cease being human solely because he's a mass murderer? If he's a mass murderer, does that give you the right to discriminate his case from just a "normal" killer? At what point does that line blur? And if you say killing a mass murderer is alright because he "deserves it," would you support torturing him because he deserves it"?[/size]

[Zen]

[color=darkred][size=1]


I think what Aaryana's trying to say is that the death penalty should be reserved for extreme cases such as Saddam. Which I agree with to a degree, but you have to figure what is the limit? What are the boundaries that must be crossed in order to warrant execution?

It'd be hard to convince some one that just because Murderer A killed 10 important or dear people to the victim's survivors, he's above the punishment received by someone who comitted a 10 or 20 more murders.

It's a do or don't thing, I guess. There isn't much fence riding on the subject unless you have only a couple reservations.[/color][/size]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=Teal][quote name='Retribution][size=1']Does a person cease being human solely because he's a mass murderer? If he's a mass murderer, does that give you the right to discriminate his case from just a "normal" killer? At what point does that line blur? And if you say killing a mass murderer is alright because he "deserves it," would you support torturing him because he deserves it"?[/size][/quote]Technically no one can ever cease to be a human, but I think on a psychological level they can. At what point do we keep pretending that someone who is a mass murderer even is human in that respect?

I hear the same argument about how life is precious from people and that we have no right to take it and yet in extreme cases they act as if we will be barbaric if we execute those who truly have committed terrible crimes. But there are those who have long since crossed the line of respecting human life and have been the cause of killing many people like Saddam did. At that point they no longer deserve any respect from others. They have become monsters who appear to be human. And if they have reached that point, on some level I think they deserve the Death Penalty.

I'm not talking about torture for the simple reason I can't think of a single reason where someone would deserve it. And I don't think it really applies since we have never, to my knowledge, tortured someone before they were imprisoned or executed. [quote name='The Boss][color=darkred][size=1]I think what Aaryana's trying to say is that the death penalty should be reserved for extreme cases such as Saddam. [/color'][/size][/quote]That and since it is such an extreme case I can understand why people would think he deserved the death penalty instead of being locked away for life.[/COLOR]

[XPS]

Just a warning I have a feeling this is gonna be a large post, If you aren't interested in religious discussions or possibly a slight rant then feel free to ignore my post.
[QUOTE=Albert Flasher][COLOR=Sienna]
IMO the West is just using Saddam as a scapegoat. We caused the entire situation in the Middle East, especially the one in Iraq. When the Western Powers (The US and Britain especially) carved up theOttoman Empire after WWI, we invented countries were there were none and ultimetly left the Kurds with no country to call their own (We also forced religious extremeists to co-exist with other religious extremeists, which is never a recipe for success.). This caused the Kurds to rebel (Rightfully so... they deserve Kurdistan) and forced Saddam to put them down or risk destabilizing his entire nation. We're just blaming him for a problem we caused...[/COLOR][/QUOTE]Good point Albert and I completely agree.
[QUOTE=Phaedrus]
Your "bible" is just literature. God didn't write those words. Or anyway, "God" in the truest sense of the word didn't; maybe your "Him" God that people like you made up wrote it, but "He" was just an amalgamation of human ingenuity given some greatness that tries to give understanding and essence to the unknown.
Do you have an actual quote from the bible where you think it could be interpreted to say, "killing is wrong, but it's all right to kill in revenge"?
It is never right to kill in revenge. It only leads to more vengance. More and more of this eternal cycle of pointlessness that mankind's been charading about all these years of its existence.
[/QUOTE]
Ok I'm sorry but I can't help but voice a opinion to some of those statements.
I'm not trying to start a fight or anything just thought I would give you a different perspective on the subject.

First off I don't really see how the bible can be considered literature considering the dead sea scrolls are one of the oldest known documents that we know of at 1000 BC. I would consider it more of a historical text or at the very least a historians perspective of actual events. Of course if you don't believe the dates of the books of the bible found (and dated by respected scientists) then I suppose you could consider it literature. But for something so old and in detail it would have to be the hugest hoax in history. I don't think you would get that many historians and scientists in on that "little" scam.

As far as an actual quote from the bible I'm not about to go searching for my bible though I am sure it's around somewhere, but the actual commandment doesn't read "Thou Shall Not Kill" most respected translations (and I say this because there are so many) reads "Thou Shall Not Murder" and trust me theres a huge difference.
Throughout the entire old testament there are stories of governments putting people to death for all sorts of reasons (even such things homosexuality) this being said as time passes those governments become more humane in the way they deal with criminals and "evil" men. There is actually writings in the New Testament that speaks of god allowing governments and "kings of men" to take responsibility for their actions and how they handle such situations. They write in regards to death penalty's and the proper actions to take for specific crimes. See Leviticus : 19

I agree it's never right to kill in revenge but you have to see that statement from a different angle, Is it killing in revenge if a serial killer/rapist kills and rapes 20 women and is then caught and sent to prison. Is it revenge for those families to want some kind of closure to the lose of their loved ones. I don't think so I think they deserve whatever punishment a Judge deems fit. Now if those families hunted him down themselves and killed him I would consider that revenge as those people were unable to control there own sense of anger. If it were my mom or girlfriend I would want him dead, not out of revenge but for the fact that the man is clearly evil and not capable of contributing to society. Why take the chance of him possibly escaping and continuing his crimes.

Another note worth mentioning is the bible would affect most Christians but most of Iraq is muslim and the koran has a way different view of the death penalty. And of course their country would reflect that as the foundations of most governments comes from religion.

I think It's best to leave it at that, it would of been so much easier to just respond with the requested quote
;)

Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject to the governing authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same

Oh and Vageta I got what you were trying to say :animesmil

[Retribution]

[quote name='Aaryanna][COLOR=Teal']Technically no one can ever cease to be a human, but I think on a psychological level they can. At what point do we keep pretending that someone who is a mass murderer even is human in that respect?[/COLOR][/quote][size=1]If they cannot cease to be human, then they are entitled to human dignity and respect, no matter how deplorable they are. I don't believe you can stop being human because you killed people.

[QUOTE][COLOR=Teal]I hear the same argument about how life is precious from people and that we have no right to take it and yet in extreme cases they act as if we will be barbaric if we execute those who truly have committed terrible crimes. But there are those who have long since crossed the line of respecting human life and have been the cause of killing many people like Saddam did. At that point they no longer deserve any respect from others. They have become monsters who appear to be human. And if they have reached that point, on some level I think they deserve the Death Penalty.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]In a sense, you are barbaric if you kill someone. By killing a killer, the state tells the citizens implicitly that killing is justified. By killing a killer, you're stopping violence with more violence. By killing a killer, you are in a sense taking a step thousands of years backward to Hammurabi's Code.

[QUOTE][COLOR=Teal]I'm not talking about torture for the simple reason I can't think of a single reason where someone would deserve it.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]How convenient. I can't think of a single reason where someone would deserve capital punishment.

[QUOTE][COLOR=Teal]And I don't think it really applies since we have never, to my knowledge, tortured someone before they were imprisoned or executed.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]lol, I think you trust the government too much.[/size]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=Teal][quote name='Retribution][size=1']If they cannot cease to be human, then they are entitled to human dignity and respect, no matter how deplorable they are. I don't believe you can stop being human because you killed people.[/size][/quote]I?m talking on a psychological level here not physical. If people really couldn?t stop being human or humane then murders and killing wouldn?t happen. But mankind is full of flaws like greed, apathy and an unwillingness to accept that they are flawed and they destroy other things in response. It?s like a disease without a cure, for the more extreme cases. We can isolate it and put the people in little cells to keep them from ever doing it again, but it doesn?t stop people from being that way.

I disagree with you on this because there are people who have become so conditioned to doing horrible things that they see nothing wrong with it and if you really do believe in dignity and respect it?s something they no longer have, even towards themselves. And even that concept is something we came up with, it?s not a fact it?s a way of thinking or a principle that we want to believe because we can then excuse horrible behavior and simply turn our backs once they are locked away. And for the most part that?s just fine. [quote name='Retribution][size=1]In a sense, you are barbaric if you kill someone. By killing a killer, the state tells the citizens implicitly that killing is justified. By killing a killer, you're stopping violence with more violence. By killing a killer, you are in a sense taking a step thousands of years backward to Hammurabi's Code.[/size][/QUOTE]Honestly Retribution, killing Saddam doesn?t even come close to being like Hammurabi?s Code. Our system of giving people a trial is a far cry from how easy that code would have allowed someone to be accused and then put to death. It?s so far out of whack that it?s not even a valid example as we are a very long way from being in that state. The fact that so many countries and states are doing away with the Death Penalty shows that we are going forward and not backwards in that respect. [QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]How convenient. I can't think of a single reason where someone would deserve capital punishment.[/size][/QUOTE]I said I felt he deserved it not that he actually should be put to death. I really don?t agree with the death penalty but when it?s used on extreme cases I?m not going to get all upset either since it?s not the same as applying such a rule to all criminals who murder or kill others. [QUOTE=Retribution][size=1']lol, I think you trust the government too much.[/size][/quote]Of course! :p I?m not going to automatically assume they?ve done so without some form of proof. I?m sure they have, but as I said, to my knowledge they have not. Though I?m sure someone could prove me wrong on that.[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Aaryanna][COLOR=Teal']I?m talking on a psychological level here not physical. If people really couldn?t stop being human or humane then murders and killing wouldn?t happen. But mankind is full of flaws like greed, apathy and an unwillingness to accept that they are flawed and they destroy other things in response. It?s like a disease without a cure, for the more extreme cases. We can isolate it and put the people in little cells to keep them from ever doing it again, but it doesn?t stop people from being that way.[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]You said it yourself, that mankind is full of flaws, and one of these is the ability to murder. Therefore Hussein was a flawed human. You also admit the efficacy of jailing him, yet you also look positively upon the use of capital punishment. I can only assume that this is vengeance, if punishment and isolation and be dealt with prison and you still support his execution.

[QUOTE][COLOR=Teal]I disagree with you on this because there are people who have become so conditioned to doing horrible things that they see nothing wrong with it and if you really do believe in dignity and respect it?s something they no longer have, even towards themselves. And even that concept is something we came up with, it?s not a fact it?s a way of thinking or a principle that we want to believe because we can then excuse horrible behavior and simply turn our backs once they are locked away. And for the most part that?s just fine.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]I think a right to dignity is an inherent component of being human. It's not an excuse to lock him up; it's easier on the conscience to just kill him, I must admit, he's a despicable person. It's easier to give in and execute him rather than jail him, because humans can be extremely vengeful creatures.

[QUOTE][COLOR=Teal]Honestly Retribution, killing Saddam doesn?t even come close to being like Hammurabi?s Code.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]An eye for an eye is basically what we have here in 2007, and that's what they had during Hammurabi's time. Look how far we've come!

[QUOTE][COLOR=Teal]Our system of giving people a trial is a far cry from how easy that code would have allowed someone to be accused and then put to death. It?s so far out of whack that it?s not even a valid example as we are a very long way from being in that state.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]Do note that Saddam's trial was probably not fair. That's not to say that he didn't do what he was accused of, but the entire proceedings could very well have been compromised to get him executed faster (as it's my understanding those 70 years old and above can't be executed in Iraq, and he was 69. I might be wrong, though).

[QUOTE][COLOR=Teal]The fact that so many countries and states are doing away with the Death Penalty shows that we are going forward and not backwards in that respect. I said I felt he deserved it not that he actually should be put to death.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
But I think Saddam's execution [i]does[/i] mark a step backwards if we are to follow your logic (which I do agree with).

[QUOTE][COLOR=Teal]Of course! :p I?m not going to automatically assume they?ve done so without some form of proof. I?m sure they have, but as I said, to my knowledge they have not. Though I?m sure someone could prove me wrong on that.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Always be skeptical of your government. Never give them the benefit of the doubt.[/size]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=Teal][quote name='Retribution][size=1']You said it yourself, that mankind is full of flaws, and one of these is the ability to murder. Therefore Hussein was a flawed human. You also admit the efficacy of jailing him, yet you also look positively upon the use of capital punishment. I can only assume that this is vengeance, if punishment and isolation and be dealt with prison and you still support his execution.[/size][/quote]I said he deserved it not that I want Capital Punishment to be considered acceptable. There?s a big difference between thinking someone?s crimes are horrible enough to consider the Death penalty and outright supporting it for all horrible crimes. You may not see the difference, but it?s clear to me. [QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]I think a right to dignity is an inherent component of being human. It's not an excuse to lock him up; it's easier on the conscience to just kill him, I must admit, he's a despicable person. It's easier to give in and execute him rather than jail him, because humans can be extremely vengeful creatures.

An eye for an eye is basically what we have here in 2007, and that's what they had during Hammurabi's time. Look how far we've come![/size][/QUOTE] It?s not the same, because in Hammurabi?s time death was the common punishment instead of being one that is rarely used like it is today. The percentages of how many people are locked up instead of executed show this. Your example in my opinion is completely out of whack and does not reflect a trend of us going back to that stage of an eye for an eye. You and I are going to disagree on this and I say instead of arguing back and forth we leave it at that. [quote name='Retribution][size=1]Do note that Saddam's trial was probably not fair. That's not to say that he didn't do what he was accused of, but the entire proceedings could very well have been compromised to get him executed faster (as it's my understanding those 70 years old and above can't be executed in Iraq, and he was 69. I might be wrong, though). [/size][/QUOTE]I don?t know if it was fair or not since I don?t know enough about Iraq to make an informed opinion. And I?ve no idea if the thing about being 70 means life in jail is true either. [QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]But I think Saddam's execution [i]does[/i] mark a step backwards if we are to follow your logic (which I do agree with).[/size][/QUOTE]Again you and I are not going to agree on this. A single example is not an indication of regression or going backwards when it is not happening on a big scale. It may feel like a step backwards, but that?s all it is a feeling. (in my opinion that is) [QUOTE=Retribution][size=1']Always be skeptical of your government. Never give them the benefit of the doubt.[/size][/quote] I give everyone the benefit of the doubt even if it is my own government. :p[/COLOR]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Aaryanna][COLOR=Teal']I give everyone the benefit of the doubt even if it is my own government. :p[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=crimson]That's good because the government gives you the benefit of the doubt back all the time.

The mutual trust and respect between both parties is inspiring.[/color]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=Teal][QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]That's good because the government gives you the benefit of the doubt back all the time.

The mutual trust and respect between both parties is inspiring.[/color][/QUOTE]Oh you! *pinches DeathKnight* Just for that I?m adding you to my buddy list! :p

Seriously though I meant it. I'm not even going to try and address all the shortcomings my government has. From the corruption to the greed to the helping big businesses gouge the regular person.

I like having a positive outlook on life because if you get too caught up in always doubting everything, it's too easy to overlook the good things. And if you want me to name one, my favorite thing in the whole world, the library. Sure that may be local instead of federal, but it still means I get to check out books to my hearts content as I could never afford to buy all of them. And it?s all due to my local government. :catgirl:[/COLOR]

[Domon]

[SIZE=1]Okay, big whoop. Saddam's dead. Has that changed a thing over there? Have all the Suni and Shi'ia (sp?) put their weapons down and stopped killing each other? Answer: No and its getting worse over there, and yet our wonderful chimpanzee of a president is wanting to send MORE troops to Iraq. While I support our troops I've been against this war for awhile and I think its time we just gave the Iraqi government an ultimadeum.

1. Get your act together so we can leave and not have to lose more troops over there.

OR

2. Go ahead and continue what your doing and we'll just leave now. Let your own people kill themselves.

I know I sound cruel and unethical but I'm tired of seeing on the news that those freaking idiots over there just can't accept the fact that a new kind of government is going to be in power and that its trying to unite all religious sects under one flag. But do the people of Iraq really care? No, they're mindless, its like a big mob who doesn't know what the heck they're doing.....

I mean seriously this execution did nothing to bring any kind of peace. Plus, we're sending more troops over already. My best friend who is like a brother to me has been sent over to Iraq and he's the same age as me! I'm tired of kids, yes kids being shipped over to that hell hole and getting killed. I mean those each person who is killed over there is someone's kid, father, mother, brother, sister, friend. I'm sorry but executing the man didn't work the way it was supposed to I guess because the violence has been on the rise and it shows no sign of letting up.

Okay, I said my bit.[/SIZE]

[desertphoenix]

[QUOTE=Domon][SIZE=1]Okay, big whoop. Saddam's dead. Has that changed a thing over there? Have all the Suni and Shi'ia (sp?) put their weapons down and stopped killing each other? Answer: No and its getting worse over there, and yet our wonderful chimpanzee of a president is wanting to send MORE troops to Iraq. While I support our troops I've been against this war for awhile and I think its time we just gave the Iraqi government an ultimadeum.

1. Get your act together so we can leave and not have to lose more troops over there.

OR

2. Go ahead and continue what your doing and we'll just leave now. Let your own people kill themselves.

I know I sound cruel and unethical but I'm tired of seeing on the news that those freaking idiots over there just can't accept the fact that a new kind of government is going to be in power and that its trying to unite all religious sects under one flag. But do the people of Iraq really care? No, they're mindless, its like a big mob who doesn't know what the heck they're doing.....

I mean seriously this execution did nothing to bring any kind of peace. Plus, we're sending more troops over already. My best friend who is like a brother to me has been sent over to Iraq and he's the same age as me! I'm tired of kids, yes kids being shipped over to that hell hole and getting killed. I mean those each person who is killed over there is someone's kid, father, mother, brother, sister, friend. I'm sorry but executing the man didn't work the way it was supposed to I guess because the violence has been on the rise and it shows no sign of letting up.

Okay, I said my bit.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Cruel yes, a bit of unneeded generalizations and name calling yes, but yes it does bring a really good point that we need to do what ever it needs to be done to get our people out and go back to focusing on bringing peace. I know we can't just can't tell our troops " jobs done, you are leaving home asap", but when can we expect an end to the war? Next year? Before the new decade i hope. I've seen the world trade center being bombed into on tv when i was 11. I don't want to see a day that i can actually be drafted into same war on terrorism.

Really i just want an end of all the conflict. We know it's going to be a hard thing to accomplish, but how hard are we trying anyway?

[Domon]

[SIZE=1]As long as this crap has been dragging out this is being called the Vietnam of our generation. I mean jeez, the death toll is just climbing and its getting to the point where the president should realize that this is becoming futile and he should be telling this prime minster to at least grow some balls and get his country under control. But that's never going to happen. We'll constantly hear from Bush and his little flunkies in press conferences, "We're succeeding in our war on terrorisim." Yeah like that inspires a lot of hope in the people of the United States. I'm seriously fed up with that line of bull crap. The "war on terrorism" is just his way of saying we're going after a group of radicals that are holed up in a certain country and they pissed us off so we're going there. If we were really in a war with terrorists we would be in other countries like Spain and we could have prevented the incident there, or London. But that didn't happen now did it? It takes all sovereign countries to fight this supposed "war." I mean get a grip.

In response to your question, I think our troops have tried as hard as they can but we can't exactly [b]take over[/b] Iraq and make it like a Commonwealth like Puerto Rico. Its not like the Iraqi populace would like that and we'd just piss off Iran and Syria even more, along with Turkey if we haven't pissed their government off already. I mean if Iraq was made into a commonwealth it would just further prove a lot of people's presumptions on Bush's true intentions to raid Iraq for oil so that we have a safe supply of oil. But a lot of people would consider it blood oil, blood money, whatever you want to call it. So in my opinion the Iraqi Prime Minister and the rest of the government needs to step up and call for calm from all of their citizens and to help establish order so that Iraq can sustain itself. Otherwise this violence will do nothing but escalate pas the point that its at right now. I mean seriously, this civil war that's going on over there is just getting worse and the Iraqi government is just twiddling its thumbs expecting the great US to come in and help... Get a grip.[/SIZE]

[nezzyjean]

Sure Sadam was a sick psychopath, but I don't think they should have killed him.

All they did by killing him was reflect his ways (although much more humanely). I'm not saying that he shouldn't have paid for his crimes or anything, its just kindof hypocritical to kill someone for killing people. And since when does man have the right to take life? I know he was a monster and he was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands and possibly millions, but all they did by putting him to death was condone his actions by stooping to his level.