Frozen in time

[vegeta rocker]

This family has decided to stunt their daughter's growth because of an illness that will not allow her brain to develop past 3 months old.

She will remain the age she is now.

I personally don't see the huge problem with it, i guess taking a step in this direction may pave the road for something worse. But my younger brother has muscular dystrophy, he has had it since he was about 7. He can't walk, he can't feed himself, he can't stand and he is 16 now.

When we give him a bath he has to be in a crane that we pick him up in and then we wheel the thing into the bathroom. Then we put a small swimming pool under him and give him a bath as he hangs from it.

This was a little weird at first, i mean im his sister and i have seen way more than i ever wanted to of my own brother. But its so hard considering how old he is getting, i don't know what we are going to do when he is a full grown adult.

I don't think we would do this because his mind is developed and he can continue to learn and grow mentally. But seeing as how this little girl cannot I can understand their decision.

Some of the comments they have gotten on the website they keep say things about how selfish they are and what if she wanted to have sex when she was older. But the fact remains, her mind will never develop to that capacity.

So whats your opinion?

[URL=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=426575&in_page_id=1879]Click here for article[/URL]

[Retribution]

[size=1]I can't see a downside or possible ethical pitfall to the idea, so I support the parent's decision. I must say, it's a pretty shrewd one to make (very outside the box, but effective when you think about it).

I would be opposed if her mind had the capacity to mature, but considering she's locked into the mental age of 3 months, a static body can only be positive for her physical well-being.[/size]

[DeadSeraphim]

[size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]The worst bit is some of the comments that were highlighted "Mutilating a child is indefensible, I don't care how big you think they might grow. What if she wants to have children or sex when she is older? You have denied her the choice. What a sad, sick example of laziness, selfishness and stupidity." Did they even read? This girl can't even ROLL OVER, let alone ever consider sex.

I support the parents in this, and while I don't think it should be used for all cases, I think it should be considered as an option for other parents in the same situation.[/font][/color][/size]

[Allamorph]

[FONT=Arial]This is indeed a unique situation. And, while I am take the opposite stance in most every other situation where a person's future rights have been diregarded, I also will support the decision of Ashley's parents.

The deal about her rights is this: since she is completely unable to develop mentally past her current state, she will never be able to understand anything that would involve her exercising any of her possible rights, nor will she even be able to grasp the concept of 'rights' period. Arguing that her rights have been abridged is useless, pointless, and slightly ludicrous ? since she'll never be capable of understanding them, she will never be able to exercise them, meaning she'll be totally dependent on her parents to decide everything for her.

The human rights people who are getting up in arms about this decision are missing this point. Rights are only relevant if the person in question has the ability to understand and use them, providing that they have not previously forfeited their actual [I]right[/I] to use their rights (here I speak of criminals). Saying that Ashley's parents are horrible people for making this awkward, difficult decision, [U]about[/U] [U]their[/U] [U]own[/U] [U]daughter[/U] whom they most likely love very much, is a fine opinion to have (being an [I]opinion[/I]), but no one can ever truly praise or condemn the parents unless they have been placed in the [I][U]exact[/U][/I] same situation.
[quote name='DeadSeraphim][SIZE=1][COLOR=indigo]Did they even read? This girl can't even ROLL OVER, let alone ever consider sex.[/COLOR'][/SIZE][/quote]
Exactly. Not only that, but she will never even be able to understand the significance of the act, let alone the emotions involved in any such intimate relationship.[/FONT]

[Rachmaninoff]

If she?s in a state where she is never going to develop mentally, then by all means I can understand the parents making such a choice. Once children like that get older, it becomes increasingly difficult to be able to care for them. Something those who are citing the parents as being cruel can?t really comprehend. It?s fairly easy to think they are being that way when they have never experienced how hard that must be for them to take care of her.

If she had the chance to develop then yeah, I would say it was inhumane, but in this case, it just sounds like the parents are trying to make the best choice possible so they can continue to take care of her.

[vegeta rocker]

I am not quite sure why they are putting their progress through this ordeal on the internet.

They will get way more hate mail, but maybe its too show other parents options?

[The Spectacular Professor]

I can understand the decision, but has anyone read "Freak the Mighty?" I'm not sure what size she is now, or the extent of the "freezing," but if her innards keep growing, she could die. If that's not the case, maybe this is best for her physical and mental well-being.

[TheShinje]

I'll shoot against the grain here.

I don't support the decision, I disagree with it entirely. While I understand that this decision the parents have come to wasn't made lightly, I feel that the decision to stunt the growth of the child was a misguided one, in any case.

The child may never understand, or comprehend life in a full-grown body, but I don't see this as giving anybody a mandate to take that away from her. You don't need to understand the rights you have to be able to have them.

I disagree with like-minded people who believe that this decision was made solely for the benefit of the carers, I feel that the parents' were acting to what they believed were the childs best interests, I just don't think these are to her best interests.

[DeadSeraphim]

[QUOTE=Shinje]I'll shoot against the grain here.

I don't support the decision, I disagree with it entirely. While I understand that this decision the parents have come to wasn't made lightly, I feel that the decision to stunt the growth of the child was a misguided one, in any case.

The child may never understand, or comprehend life in a full-grown body, but I don't see this as giving anybody a mandate to take that away from her. You don't need to understand the rights you have to be able to have them.

I disagree with like-minded people who believe that this decision was made solely for the benefit of the carers, I feel that the parents' were acting to what they believed were the childs best interests, I just don't think these are to her best interests.[/QUOTE]
[size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]the alternative the child becoming too large to care for, experiencing menstruation when she can't even communicate pain, and dealing with apparently large breasts that would get in the way of her favourite lying positions. Show me a 3 month old who could adequately deal with those symptoms, and I'll agree it wasn't in her best interests. Otherwise I think what the parents did was very brave and very good for their daughter (brave cause it's never been attempted before).

This kind of treatment has never been done before, and the ethics are still in debate, but if I had the choice of letting someone who doesn't even comprehend shapes and sounds grow into the body of an adult, or keeping them at a point where they will never have to deal with the trials and tribulations of being in an adult's body (especially for a woman) I know what I'd do for them.[/font][/color][/size]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][quote name='DeadSeraphim][size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]the alternative the child becoming too large to care for, experiencing menstruation when she can't even communicate pain, and dealing with apparently large breasts that would get in the way of her favourite lying positions. Show me a 3 month old who could adequately deal with those symptoms, and I'll agree it wasn't in her best interests. Otherwise I think what the parents did was very brave and very good for their daughter (brave cause it's never been attempted before).[/font][/color'][/size][/quote]That argument alone is enough for me to agree with what the parents have chosen to do. The last thing she needs is to grow up and deal with menstruation every single month. If she's got the mind of a three month old baby, there's just no way she's going to understand that. Especially if she's like a lot of women in that it's an uncomfortable process. All she's going to do is suffer every time that happens. If she has the standard length of periods for about the same amount of time most women go though this, that translates to four years of needless suffering.

The people who are arguing that the parents were selfish are forgetting that in addition to making it easier for them to care for her, it will make her life a lot more comfortable in the long run. Especially since she won't have the mentality to understand the changes in her body from growing up. Realistically no 3-month-old baby would. And seeing that mentally that's what she is, then I think they made a smart move in trying to do what's best for her.[/COLOR]

[Pumpkin]

[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][SIZE=2]What I find funny, is why is sex the most important complaint brought up in this? Isn't there more to adult life then just sex? I honestly can't believe their coming up with something to stunt your growth, but I definately think it would make that child's life a whole lot easier. Not only caring for an adult is difficult, but being an adult with a baby's mind would be a lot less easier for people to take then a child's. I definately agree with their decision however, since I think they are trying to think for the CHILD and not just for themselves. It just kills me that people bring up sex like its the most important factor. [/size][/font]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][quote name='Shinje'] The child may never understand, or comprehend life in a full-grown body, but I don't see this as giving anybody a mandate to take that away from her. You don't need to understand the rights you have to be able to have them.[/quote]True, but as a society we already make decisions where we make choices for others regardless of their rights. Take people who suffer from dementia, the families often have to go to court to get control so they can make decisions such as putting them in a facility to be cared for. It's neither easy nor simple and though the person may have desired to never be in a nursing home, at that point they no longer even realize that they are there. For people who don't have enough money and can't be home 24/7 (which is what people like that require in terms of care) doing things that would go against their rights is what's best for their health and well being.

It's the same for their daughter. She's not going to ever understand having a period, or be able to understand sex, and as a woman myself, I agree completely with what SunfallE and DeadSeraphim was talking about. It would be needless suffering since most women have some sort of issue every time they have their period whether it's cramps, bloating or outright pain. So which is crueler? Willingly allowing your daughter's body to mature and experience things she will never learn to adapt to. (Normally females learn to do so along with medicine if needed, but that's a concept she will never grasp) Or try to do something different in spite of others sending you hate mail because in the end you truly care about your daughter?

Whether or not it's the right thing to do, it's obvious they want to take care of her instead of letting her grow up and ending up partially placing her in a facility or requiring more help for their daughter. Which by the way can get expensive real quick. So at this point someone needs to make decisions for her and it sounds like they are doing their best to put her needs and comforts first.

And Peanut, I so agree with you, honestly, why are people getting in arms over whether or not she can have sex? That's so stupid that it's painful. [/COLOR]

[Ol' Fighter]

Something like this would absolutly tear me apart if it ever happened to me I mean, just thinking about having to actually make a decision to have your own child frozen and there's a great possibility that you'll be long gone or near it sad to say but from just thinking about that I really feel for them because that is one tough decision.

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=Shinje]I'll shoot against the grain here.

I don't support the decision, I disagree with it entirely. While I understand that this decision the parents have come to wasn't made lightly, I feel that the decision to stunt the growth of the child was a misguided one, in any case.

The child may never understand, or comprehend life in a full-grown body, but I don't see this as giving anybody a mandate to take that away from her. You don't need to understand the rights you have to be able to have them.

I disagree with like-minded people who believe that this decision was made solely for the benefit of the carers, I feel that the parents' were acting to what they believed were the childs best interests, I just don't think these are to her best interests.[/QUOTE]

[color=dimgray] I'm going to have to agree with you. It's not like I'm 100% totally on the against side of it, but I'm leaning towards it.

As soon as I read this thread, the idea of it just disagreed with my gut. It's hard for me to argue against strong arguments such as the physical pains of growing up and the helplessness that will increase as the child grows older, because all I have is immediate and gut feelings.

Everytime I hear about cloning or cross-breeding or whatnot, I'm reminded of novels like Brave New World and Oryx & Crake. Sure, it may be a rare case now, but what's to say about it in the future?

I'm sure your parents are loving people who want the best for their baby, and I'm not insulting them or trying to degrade them. It just makes me iffy to hear about such a procedure.[/color]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Lunox][color=dimgray']It just makes me iffy to hear about such a procedure.[/color][/quote]Even though I think they made a good decision, I agree. It's certainly something that shouldn't become the standard for treatment, but rather the exception. Something that should only be done if it truly will benefit both the child and the family.

Just the idea of stunting people's growth to make them more manageable because they have special needs is a bit frightening if you think about it. It's something that certainly needs careful thought or at least a very strong reason for doing so. Like how she will never be more than a 3 month old baby mentally. Instead of the family wanting them to be smaller so it's easier just for them.

It kind of needs to be a case of the kid benefiting the most. At least that's what I think.

[Retribution]

[size=1]The procedure being "iffy" with you is not a valid counterargument against the procedure. And Dead did explain how it would be easier for the child if her body were kept at it's current size, just look at his latest post.[/size]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']The procedure being "iffy" with you is not a valid counterargument against the procedure. And Dead did explain how it would be easier for the child if her body were kept at it's current size, just look at his latest post.[/size][/quote]

[color=dimgray] I wrote already that I recognized and realized the pains the baby would go through while growing up with a three-month old mind. I'm saying that despite it, I still feel that something is wrong with the procedure the parents are taking.

Heh, and don't think I'm trying to make a valid argument. I know it's a weak counterargument, but I just wanted to get it out there. I'm more worried about how the gradual acceptance of these kinds of procedures will affect our future. [/color]

[Allamorph]

[QUOTE=Lunox][COLOR=DimGray] I wrote already that I recognized and realized the pains the baby would go through while growing up with a three-month old mind. I'm saying that despite it, I still feel that something is wrong with the procedure the parents are taking.

Heh, and don't think I'm trying to make a valid argument. I know it's a weak counterargument, but I just wanted to get it out there. I'm more worried about how the gradual acceptance of these kinds of procedures will affect our future.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[FONT=Arial]I understand exactly what you mean; my parents and I actually disagreed for once on this issue, and for this exact reason. It just doesn't seem right. Even though I support them, it still just kind of bothers me in that one spot in my chest that reacts to this kind of thing. (Wow. That was nebulous.)

And no, it shouldn't become standard procedure, because that would completely rule out the chance that something in the afflicted person's mind could suddenly click and enable learning again. It needs to stay a special case scenario.

[quote name='Peanut][FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium']What I find funny, is why is sex the most important complaint brought up in this? Isn't there more to adult life then just sex? ... It just kills me that people bring up sex like its the most important factor.[/FONT][/quote]
[quote name='indifference][COLOR=DarkRed']... honestly, why are people getting in arms over whether or not she can have sex? That's so stupid that it's painful.[/COLOR][/quote]
I actually hadn't planned on commenting on the boards at all today because I have other work to do, but I read these statements and I have to say this:

[center][SIZE=4][B][I]Thank you so freakin' much![/I][/B][/SIZE][/center]

You guys hit something that's been bugging me since I first read the article and comments. Honestly (and this is from a [I][U]guy[/U][/I] talking), sex really would have been the absolute lowest item on my concern chart when making that decision. I find it stupidly laughable that people would hold the loss of sex higher than the loss of recreation, friendships, ability to work, ability to even [I]learn anything[/I]; ya know? It's dumb. And here's the kicker: despite the fact that her ... important ... organs are gone, she's locked in the body of a freakin' nine year old! If her parents hadn't had the hysterectomy and breast-bud removal performed and had just frozen her growth, would the sex issue be gone? And if so, what kind of moronic, perverse idiot would want to have sex with a nine year old?

Honestly, it just seems to me to be a showcase of the depravity of some people's minds that this is the first issue that comes up. Thank you, you two, for saying that.[/FONT]

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=Allamorph][FONT=Arial]

You guys hit something that's been bugging me since I first read the article and comments. Honestly (and this is from a [I][U]guy[/U][/I] talking), sex really would have been the absolute lowest item on my concern chart when making that decision.
[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[color=dimgray] It probably means that whoever brought the sex issue up hasn't had sex. [/color]

[Rachmaninoff]

[QUOTE=Allamorph][FONT=Arial] what kind of moronic, perverse idiot would want to have sex with a nine year old?

Honestly, it just seems to me to be a showcase of the depravity of some people's minds that this is the first issue that comes up. Thank you, you two, for saying that.[/FONT][/QUOTE]One who probably needs to be [spoiler] castrated. Or turned into a girl. [/spoiler] I agree though, it really is sick that their first thought is sex instead of whether or not she?s getting the best care. Dead already stated it well in that she can?t even roll over let alone consider sex. So if they did allow her body to mature sex for her would in my opinion be the same as rape since she will never reach the mental maturity to understand the process. [quote name='Lunox][color=dimgray'] It probably means that whoever brought the sex issue up hasn't had sex. [/color][/quote]*snicker* I agree.

In the end when you are dealing with a situation like this being able to relate and talk with other people and being able to take care of yourself are far more important than the sex aspect ever will be.

[TheShinje]

[quote][color=DarkRed] It's the same for their daughter. She's not going to ever understand having a period, or be able to understand sex, and as a woman myself, I agree completely with what SunfallE and DeadSeraphim was talking about. It would be needless suffering since most women have some sort of issue every time they have their period whether it's cramps, bloating or outright pain. So which is crueler? Willingly allowing your daughter's body to mature and experience things she will never learn to adapt to. (Normally females learn to do so along with medicine if needed, but that's a concept she will never grasp) Or try to do something different in spite of others sending you hate mail because in the end you truly care about your daughter? [/quote] [color=Black]Having no way to adapt to something you can't grasp is inhumane in it's own way. I can understand that. Maybe they should have looked then, at taking these elements out specifically, rather than stunting her entire growth. [strike]The human body was designed to grow, and I don't think she will last long trapped in life as a 3 month old.[/strike]

Another thing to consider in this is medical advancement. Who is to say they won't find a way to repair her brain in the coming decade? We're at this point where we can take stem cells from other parts of the body and repair a damaged heart with them. The technology to allow someone like this girl to live a normal life is being pioneered as we [strike]speak[/strike] type.

Stunting her growth is like playing russian roulette with her future.
[/color] [/color]

[DeadSeraphim]

[QUOTE=Shinje][color=Black]Having no way to adapt to something you can't grasp is inhumane in it's own way. I can understand that. Maybe they should have looked then, at taking these elements out specifically, rather than stunting her entire growth. The human body was designed to grow, and I don't think she will last long trapped in life as a 3 month old.

Another thing to consider in this is medical advancement. Who is to say they won't find a way to repair her brain in the coming decade? We're at this point where we can take stem cells from other parts of the body and repair a damaged heart with them. The technology to allow someone like this girl to live a normal life is being pioneered as we [strike]speak[/strike] type.

Stunting her growth is like playing russian roulette with her future.
[/color] [/color][/QUOTE]
[size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]She's not a 3 month old. She has the physical body of a 9 year old girl, but the [i]mind[/i] of a 3 month old. Why isn't anyone reading the actual article before posting?[/font][/color][/size]

[TheShinje]

[quote name='DeadSeraphim][size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]She's not a 3 month old. She has the physical body of a 9 year old girl, but the [i]mind[/i] of a 3 month old. Why isn't anyone reading the actual article before posting?[/font][/color'][/size][/quote] I did read the article, about a week ago. This point must have slipped my mind and a re-read could have been in order.

[DeadSeraphim]

[quote name='Shinje']I did read the article, about a week ago. This point must have slipped my mind and a re-read could have been in order.[/quote]
[size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]Even with the edit, your point still makes no sense. So, what, they might be able to undo whatever keeps Ashley at 3-months mentally... can you guarantee when that'll happen? Can you even guarantee that she'll even be able to undergo the procedure as she gets older? I mean, ****, her brain has been static for over 8 years - just being static could cause irreparable damage, eg: development that should've happened mightn't have, connections a brain makes as it develops wouldn't exist. At such a late stage, can you really say her condition is reversible, especially with your presumably limited knowledge of the brain?

There's no indication with research so far that it can be undone. The parents made an informed decision based on the capabilities science has today to stop their child's growth for her quality of life, not on a vague promise that science might one day be able to reverse damage to the least understood organ in the human body.

[This is all despite the fact that if it was somehow undone, she'd still be severely disabled for life - every year her condition goes untreated is another year she would be behind her peers in age, and there's very little chance she'd ever catch up. She'd still be in the same helpless position she is now, except larger, and quite conscious of the fact.][/font][/color][/size]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][QUOTE=Shinje][color=Black] Another thing to consider in this is medical advancement. Who is to say they won't find a way to repair her brain in the coming decade? We're at this point where we can take stem cells from other parts of the body and repair a damaged heart with them. The technology to allow someone like this girl to live a normal life is being pioneered as we [strike]speak[/strike] type.

Stunting her growth is like playing russian roulette with her future.
[/color][/QUOTE]To be realistic, our advancement is a long way away from even approaching what you are suggesting. Her brain is stuck as a 3-month-old baby. It takes pretty severe damage to be stuck so early in one?s development. I?m not an expert, but a huge percentage of what I?ve read in regards to stem cell research has been more along the line of fixing things like paralysis or helping with a bad heart. Not something more complicated like the brain and even then her parents already waited nine years. She?s at the point where a decision needs to be made. By the time stem cells, which are iffy due to the controversy, even get to the point where they will be useful, she?s likely to be an old woman.

The true Russian roulette would be to let her suffer needlessly because she has a one in a billion chance of them developing a treatment in time for her to have a more normal life. And even that is stretching it, as it?s unlikely it will ever happen. It?s hard to repair something that never developed in the first place. [/COLOR]