Christianity and Gay Marriage

[Adahn]

[size=2]I apologize for starting a Gay Marriage thread.[/size]
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[size=2]I wrote this quite a while ago, but I wasn't active on OB at that time, so I didn't think to put it here.[/size]
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[size=2]Here she goes...[/size]
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[size=2]This is mainly aimed at Christianity. I want to make sure that nobody
thinks this is aimed at Christians individually, only at what I
perceive to be the popular ideology of Christianity.

Generally, gay marriage is opposed by the Christian ideology. The
reason for this, I believe, is that a certain act act male homosexuals
can engage in is a sin. It is from this that the Christian ideology
is repulsed. Voting to legalize gay marriage would condone this sin,
and so the ideology instructs its followers not to vote to legalize
it.

Now, while I believe the above statement is the underlying cause for
the ideology's position, a different argument is usually used. The
Bible defines marriage as between a man and a woman, and so any
unconventional marriage would be an affront to God, a sin. On this
perfectly legitimate ground, the ideology advises its followers not to
vote in favor of gay marriage.

While this new statement is used, and rightly so, it raises the
question that perhaps all our laws shouldn't be based on the Bible, as
that would make us a theocracy. So, the ideology poses arguments
about how our country is set up to reward couples for having children,
and that people will get married just for the benefits, which will in
some way hurt our economy. I don't really know much about this
argument, as it smells faintly of beaurocratic bullcrap to me.

Now, I'm here to present an alternate position on the issue. A big
part of Christianity is recognizing that everyone sins. Homosexuality
is a sin, and its magnitude makes it no more or less than any other.
The reason for this is that any sin means death. Disallowing gay
marriage, I believe, will do little to stop people from being gay. It
will, however, keep gay people from having faith in God. When an
ideology oppresses a group, that group usually does not flock to
follow that ideology. I sin and you sin, but our sins are not
politically important enough to have us discriminated against, and
thus forced away from God. I've used the words oppressed and
discriminated here, and you may not like them, so I'd better explain
them.

I don't have the Bible memorized, but I do believe Jesus said
something along the lines of, "Let he who is sinless cast the first
stone." To me, it seems that Jesus is saying that we are all sinners,
and have no right to cast stones against other sinners. In this case,
the stones represent pain and death. While homosexuals are not likely
to die from not being able to be married (unless you think legalizing
gay marriage would increase the monogomy rate, and thus decrease the
risk of contracting fatal STD's), the inability to commit themselves
to each other through marriage hurts them emotionally. So, I think
that while Jesus would not approve of gay marriage, he would not
attack it as the Christian ideology has.

As a great lover of metaphors, I can't resist including one. Back in
the good old days of ancient democratic Athens, votes were cast using
colored stones. I think a white stone meant one stood in favor of
some law, while a black stone stood against. Our voting is much like
this casting of stones, as we pride ourselves on being a democratic
republic. To cast a stone against gay marriage is to be the sinner
who casts a stone at another sinner in Jesus' presence. To cast a
vote against gay marriage is to be the sinner acting as if he/she were
sinless.

Remember, allowing gay marriage will cause no harm, only allow other
sinners like ourselves to live happier lives, and it may help to bring
homosexuals to God.

If any homosexuals read this, I hope you are not offended. Every
single Christian, including myself, sins. Some sins we deny, because
we do not feel they are sins. However, we ask God to forgive us for
all our sins, even the ones we cannot bring ourselves to recognize.
You may feel that homosexuality is not a sin, and this is absolutely
fine, because it does not set you apart from any other Christian who
lives in God's eyes.[/size]

[Boo]

[size=1]Now where does the rest of the community come in? Are we just here to bash whatever you just said?[/size]

[Guest NIKI12345]

[quote name='Boo][size=1']Now where does the rest of the community come in? Are we just here to bash whatever you just said?[/size][/quote]


He has a point, but he didn't have to say it that way. He could have said it in a nicer way.

Just a thought what if your not chirstian :animesmil
Like me.

[Boo]

[QUOTE=NIKI12345]He has a point, but he didn't have to say it that way. He could have said it in a nicer way.

Just a thought what if your not chirstian :animesmil
Like me.[/QUOTE][size=1]I know he has a point - obviously - but he discussed the whole point in his first post and even included an endconclusion. [/size]

[AzureWolf]

[COLOR=maroon]I think it's more an article than a forum-esque post. Or maybe... his intention all along was to make us talk this pointlessly from the beginning![/COLOR]

[DeadSeraphim]

[quote name='AzureWolf][COLOR=maroon']I think it's more an article than a forum-esque post. Or maybe... his intention all along was to make us talk this pointlessly from the beginning![/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1][color=indigo][font=arial][i]CONSPIRACY[/i][/font][/color][/size]

[Adahn]

[size=2]Boo,[/size]
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[size=2]Whatever I write, for whatever reason, gets bashed, so I believe the answer to your question is 'yes'.[/size]
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[size=2]Niki,[/size]
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[size=2]In taking this stance on Gay Marriage, I am hardly a model Christian myself. Christian politics is the largest barrier in the way of gay marriage being legalized, and we outsiders can discuss the inconsistencies between Christian politics and Christian values. I think gay marriage is a good model for drawing out these inconsistencies.[/size]
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[size=2]Azure,[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]If you would like to treat it as an article, then you may. Articles are often the subject of discussion here on Otakuboards. This is different in that I am here to defend what I wrote, or change my position based on any arguments or comments that are made.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]My intention was to post something I wrote for a different medium here, because I had hoped it would merit some amount of discussion. If it doesn't happen, then the thread will pass into oblivion like so many others. I did not edit the 'article', because I had a headache, and anything I write here tends to open me up to the bashing Boo has already suggested.[/size]
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[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=Adahn]
[size=2]In taking this stance on Gay Marriage, I am hardly a model Christian myself. Christian politics is the largest barrier in the way of gay marriage being legalized, and we outsiders can discuss the inconsistencies between Christian politics and Christian values. I think gay marriage is a good model for drawing out these inconsistencies.[/size][/QUOTE][FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]
[COLOR=Sienna]
Yep... I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to post, hah, because I agree with everything you said, so I guess I'll just re-afirm you're statment... In Canada, for example, gay marriage is completely legal. It has been for a few years now, and the world hasn't come crashing down around our ears. Fireballs havn't rained down from the heavens, the earth hasn't opened up and swallowed us whole, we havn't been sunk to the bottom of the ocean... There's no reason that gay marriage shouldn't be legal, and anyone who thinks so should get the hell out of our century.

****, it's almost like things have gotten better up here since we legalized gay marriage! In the time since the bill was passed, there have been a plethora of devestating natural disasters and endless wars across the globe, and the worst thing that's happened to Canada is an unusually warm winter. :animestun :animestun [/COLOR][/FONT]

[Goodbye, Face]

[size=1][font=arial]I don't see the point in it being illegal to begin with. If you're not gay, then gay people getting married isn't going to affect [b]you[/b], Christian or not. I don't understand why people always feel the need to step in when they have no business there. I could understand if they were going to ban homosexuals from Christian churches or something, but to take that a step further and just outright ban them from having legal benefits as a couple is BS.[/font][/size]

[visualkei]

I thought that was well-written, Adahn. You're basically saying that some people who suppress gays are hypocrites, but you made your point sound much nicer and more reasonable than what I just stated. It reminds me, I think my friend used the same Jesus quote when he was talking about legalizing gay marriages. This is probably my favorite part of it:

[QUOTE]Disallowing gay
marriage, I believe, will do little to stop people from being gay. It
will, however, keep gay people from having faith in God. When an
ideology oppresses a group, that group usually does not flock to
follow that ideology. [/QUOTE]

Now I know all gays aren't going to turn away from Christianity because of the attitudes they get. But when you have a big group of people from a religion condeming you, and saying that their or your God condemns you, you're going to get turned off in one way or another. It doesn't surprise me if Christian gays decide if they'll rather leave 'em than join 'em.

I just got so confused writing more about your post... so I'm just going to leave it at that. Perhaps I'll post later when I'm awake. =D

[kalon]

I don't think I've ever heard a single reason other than religion why two people of the same gender cannot enjoy all the benefits heterosexual couples enjoy. Never. Not once. Because in a society where citizens are given equal rights, there's not a single reason why two consenting adults, regardless of gender, should not be allowed to get married. If you abolish it for homosexuals, then it's only fair to ban all straight people from getting married, too. Besides, you'd think that marriage would fall into the whole "pursuit of happiness" category. You know, the whole unalienable rights deal.

I'm moving to Canada when I grow up.

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Well as a practicing Roman Catholic, I have to admit that I do oppose gay marriage on the grounds it goes against my religious beliefs. Now that said, I'm going to clarify my point on what I mean by "marriage", marriage to me has always signified a religious institution between a man and a woman in a Church under the eyes on God that is after going to a registrars office, given legal recognition. I realise of course that other people will have different opinions of what marriage is, but that's just my one.

If civil unions granting homosexual couples the same financial and legal rights as heterosexual couples were to come up, I would neither oppose nor support it, because at the end of the day these people can't help the way they were born. I suppose it does sound a little like splitting hairs in the end, but for someone who was not too long ago completely opposed to homosexual marriage in all forms, it is a change in stance. That said, I do oppose it being legalised via stealth bills, in countries where the majority of the population, such as in Ireland, are against it as was attempted by our Justice Minister not too long ago.

On the whole sin thing, I'm really not sure where I stand on that, I think forgiveness should be given without been asked for, and it goes back to Adahn's first point about the casting of stones. If these people lead good lives, and do no intentional wrong to others, then their sins are between themselves and God, and not up to me to demand their having to get absolution. A good friend of mine here on OtakuBoards is gay, and I don't think any worse of him for being so inclined.

Those are my two cents anyway. [/SIZE]

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson]The politics of a nation can be manhandled by the "majority" and I believe that even the majority can come to a wrong consensus as a collective and that they, unfortunately, often do. I do not hold anything against Roman Catholics or their demographic majority in Ireland but just because there are a bunch of people with one opinion doesn't make that opinion more valid once you step outside of the stupid Democratic "We're a huge group of people! That makes this decision a good one!" viewpoint.

Grant them that freedom. If God cannot embrace as much liberty as man can then, well.

The children have surpassed their father.[/color]

[Riku]

[quote name='RiflesAtRecess][size=1][font=arial]I don't see the point in it being illegal to begin with. If you're not gay, then gay people getting married isn't going to affect [b]you[/b], Christian or not. I don't understand why people always feel the need to step in when they have no business there. I could understand if they were going to ban homosexuals from Christian churches or something, but to take that a step further and just outright ban them from having legal benefits as a couple is BS.[/font'][/size][/quote]

[COLOR=Navy][SIZE=1][FONT=Tahoma]I totally agree with you, my lovable Kevin. But I'm a hard- core Christian and absolutely am in love with God and everything about Him, so I go with what He says. Yes, I am against Gay Marriage because it goes against with what I believe in, straight out. But, that doesn't mean that I automatically hate them... like, "OMG you're gay?! That is so sick, you go to Hell." I absolutely dislike Christian people who do that kind of stupid crap. That's exactly what God doesn't want us to do, turn people away just because we don't like what they do. I have gay friends, and guess what? They are the most awesome people you'll ever see. I can't say that I like the fact that they're gay and I pray for them at times, but that also doesn't mean I should totally shun them; that's totally wrong. God teaches us to love and forgive, not hate and shun. As the most awesome comedian, Brad Stine, said, "That's the only bad thing about being a Christain... you're not allowed to hate!" So, in my personal point of view, if you say that you're a Christain and totally shun others out just because they don't fit with our religion, you're just as bad as everyone else out there.

*Sigh* I finally got that out. XD Anyway, I have to say something that I always wanted to say... why do people have to go around and diss the Christians, huh? I mean, okay, so you don't believe in God and you believe in something else. Hey, I'm down with that, but you don't have to go and mock my God just because it's against anything you believe in. Do you see me running around and making a fool of myself about dissing your religion?

All I'm saying is that how come every other religion is okay with the world, while Christianity is always getting beat down every day? It's the First Amendment, people: Freedom of Religion. Christianity was the religion that brought America together, so I don't think that gives everyone the right to go dissing us.

As Brad Stine said, "If you want a God with a mind like mine, we're all in trouble... that's why there's a Higher Being."

That's all I have to say. You can all make fun of me now, I just felt like I can trust the OB, so I let it all out. Sorry. XD[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Keyblade Wielder][COLOR=Navy][SIZE=1][FONT=Tahoma]Anyway, I have to say something that I always wanted to say... why do people have to go around and diss the Christians, huh?[/FONT][/SIZE'][/COLOR][/quote]

[color=crimson]I'm not! I tolerate Christians all the time, I am the most tolerant person on Earth. I have so many Christian friends and they are really great people. I can't say I really like that they are Christian.. I mean, it goes against what I believe in so I pray for them. But I'm definitely not intolerant of their choices! I just wish they weren't what they are, but that doesn't mean I shun them or anything. Love and forgiveness right? I forgive you for being a Christian <3.

Someday, hopefully, you'll see the light.

Is that the kind of mockery you were looking for?[/color] :p

[Riku]

[QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]I'm not! I tolerate Christians all the time, I am the most tolerant person on Earth. I have so many Christian friends and they are really great people. I can't say I really like that they are Christian.. I mean, it goes against what I believe in so I pray for them. But I'm definitely not intolerant of their choices! I just wish they weren't what they are, but that doesn't mean I shun them or anything. Love and forgiveness right? I forgive you for being a Christian <3.

Someday, hopefully, you'll see the light.

Is that the kind of mockery you were looking for?[/color] :p[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Navy][SIZE=1][FONT=Tahoma]Here I go and spill my heart out and you just turn it all against me?

It was what I was looking for, and I frickin' love you.

You rule. :D[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Adahn]

[size=2]I respect and completely agree with Gavin's stance. When I speak of legalizing gay marriage, I mean granting them the benefits of a civil union. It isn't a redefinition of marriage I ask for, only civil rights equality. Not voting to ban gay civil unions is an act that I believe is in line with God's will, and especially virtuous as it goes against the grain of mainstream Christianity.[/size]

[size=2]Deathknight, you have a [i]very[/i] good understanding of what I think is going on with Christian politics. I'm not very good with politics myself, but I think here in the U.S., the republican party [i]needs[/i] to have gay marriage demonized in order to have a firm grasp on most Christian voters. If what I have written [i]is[/i] in line with God's wishes, and I do feel that it is, then there is a great deal of irony in this whole topic.[/size]

[size=2]KW, I understand that you are personally against gay marriage. I have a personal question for you, and I hope you will consider it carefully before answering. Would you actively vote for a ban on gay marriage, and/or actively vote against its legalization? You know my stance and my beliefs on the issue. If the answer to the above question(s) is in any way yes, I would very much like to hear the reason behind it, as understanding differing opinions is essential for me to improve my position. Remember, I view not voting on the issue as a just and virtuous decision.[/size]

[size=2]Also, I [i]do[/i] believe in God, and that is [u]why[/u] I "beat down" Christianity. I would like to clarify that I am not here to "diss the Christians". I see the reconsideration of gay marriage by the Christian ideology as a big step in bringing everyone, current Christians and homosexuals, closer to God.[/size]

[size=2]Also, I have something to say about what it means to be a good Christian. There are two things that God has given authority to us to do as Christians. We can either bring people closer to God, or we can push people further away from Him. He has [u]not[/u] given us the authority to stop others from sinning. He has made it very clear that an individual's sins are between him/her and God. So, before you make a decision that may have an impact on another human being, always consider first: "am I bringing someone closer to God with this action, or am I pushing someone away?" To do the latter, passively or purposely, is to commit the greatest of sins.[/size]

[size=2]If the Christian ideology adopts [i]their[/i] [i]own[/i] values and applies them in this way, then I believe it will bring everyone closer to God. I doubt the hardcore homo-hating Christians will be repulsed enough by this change in the worldview to abandon God.[/size]

[size=2]I think it will also help relieve the stigma attached to homosexuality in the public mindset. Despite how this may seem to encourage people to sin, I [i]urge[/i] you to remember one thing. Everyone sins, and noone acknowledges all of their sins. I drive 60 mph in the 55 mph zones. Am I sinning? You bet your *** I am. Do I acknowledge my sin and seek to change my actions? I sure as hell don't! I do, however, ask God to forgive me of all my sins, the one's I acknowledge, and the ones I can't bring myself to acknowledge as sins. In this, you will see that in God's eyes (and my own eyes), I am no worse or better than any homosexual. No sin is so small that it will not earn death, and no sin is too large that it cannot be forgiven.[/size]

[size=2]To all you non-Christians out there, I apologize for being all religousy, unless of course you can understand and appreciate my ideas regardless of your belief system, in which case I have nothing to apologize for.[/size]
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[size=2]EDIT: That was awesome DK[/size]

[Rachmaninoff]

It?s hard to know what to say other than I agree. There?s no reason to deny gay marriage in my opinion. I was raised in the very Christian based religion of the LDS/Mormon church and since I?ve become an adult I?ve moved on and left religion behind me for the moment. [In other words I don?t follow any religion at the moment]

But in the end it does boil down the argument of not casting stones when we ourselves are not free from sin and I understood that the whole point of being here was to make our own choices, not attempt to make others choices for them. And if our government is suppose to keep religion separate, then why the hell are we trying to ban something that is considered wrong from a religious standpoint? That sort of thing in my opinion shouldn?t even be in the laws to begin with.

It?s one thing for the actual religion to not perform gay marriages, but to deny them the rights to a civil union under the government smacks of hypocrisy to me. Even the statement that it is a sin is questionable since that belief is based on a religious one and not a scientific one. Though I?m sure you could argue it causes diseases, and yet you can also argue that there are plenty of STD?s from the so-called normal relationships as well.

I?d like to see the stigma attached to someone being homosexual become a thing of the past as well. It?s disgusting to see it being used as a tactic to enact more laws that hurt not only gay couples, but non-married straight ones as well. The state of Utah had a huge debate where they enacted another law that not only banned gay marriage but stripped the rights of straight people living under a common law marriage. A law clearly designed to force people from being married if they were gay and to make sure those living together in what they considered a sinful state would have no rights since they did not get married.

I voted against this law, but it still passed. I couldn?t even get people to see that it was aimed at straight couples as well, they were so afraid of someone gay getting married that they didn?t care.

Anyway?my opinion is in the minority here it Utah, but I?m all for giving gay people equal rights in that respect. And I agree DK, your post was beyond awesome. ;)

[Boo]

[size=1]... Wow.

I'm Christian and would say that I don't give wether you're gay or not, or if you want to get married. Basically because I really have never personally read the rule "man and man may not marry, even if they love each other" (or "woman and woman", whatever). God is love, Jesus spreads the word of love and if you and your lover want to get married, go ahead. There's not a single part in my belief that's against gay marriage.

If you actually oppose gay marriage because your religion tells you you should, I recommend you actually start thinking for yourself and what you think is right. I think that, even if you follow the guidelines of the bible, you'll see that Christianity is more about love than about anything else. Can someone give me some good reasons why two lovers should not be together, even if they're both from the same gender?

And I must agree that religion and law should be seperated. Even if there'd be any religious reason why two men should not marry, I could not see a valid social one. [/size]

[Adahn]

[size=2]I don't think there is any part of the Bible that articulates, "Gay people can't get married." The only time God speaks against homosexuality is when He says. "If a man should lay with a man as he would with a woman, kill both of them. Their blood is upon them." This is in the Old Testament, and it is the reason Christianity is now opposed to homosexuals. Also, the Bible is absolutely silent on lesbianism. There is no reference to it anywhere, in the Old Testament or the New Testament.[/size]

[Retribution]

[size=1]If you want to follow the Old Testament as a point of reference, do keep in mind you need to stone disobedient children at the city gates, that a woman is essentially untouchable while on her period, and that God killed everyone in the world because they weren't worshiping him.

Basically, you don't want to use the OT to justify a position against homosexuality, because it's an enormous double standard.[/size]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

I?m going to have to go against the grain a little here as I think there is a gross misunderstanding in regards to homosexuality and the objection to it lying solely in a religious aspect.

Until in 1973 when the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from the Sexual Deviancy section of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, many of the adults [myself included] who oppose gay marriage were raised with the belief that homosexuality was a mental disorder, not just something that was a sin due to their religious beliefs.

And even that change was seen as a political one due to pressure from activist gay groups, and not one of a scientific nature.

It wasn?t until around 1992 that the World Health Organization ceased to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder something that was followed by the United Kingdom in 1994.

So though many religions do not approve of it due to it being considered a sin. Many of us were raised and taught that it was a mental disorder, one that needed treatment not legalizing marriage to support a mental disorder.

Now for how I feel on this subject, I do not support gay marriage. However before you take that the wrong way, I do not support it from a religious standpoint, one where those who are gay cannot be married in the church.

I do support allowing civil unions done by our government, since I firmly believe that religion and state should stay separate and there is no reason to deny them the benefits of health and insurance and rights that come from such a union. And on that same tangent, if a religion decides to support and allow it, I would not object to that either since in the end it?s not my place to judge them. That is God?s task, not mine.

[Retribution]

[size=1]For a while, I was for civil unions. After careful deliberation, I am now against them. I believe that calling it a "civil union" just because the couple is gay is a manifestation of [b]separate but equal[/b], which was ruled unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court a while back.

If the two are the same -- civil unions and state marriage -- it is discrimination to call them different things if they perform the same function. It's an impermissible compromise, a stab at appeasing the moderates on the issue who just feel "uncomfortable" calling it a marriage. Suck it up, call it a state marriage, and call it a day.[/size]

[Adahn]

[size=2]Aaryanna_Mom,[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]I am grateful for the insight you have offered. I hadn't really considered that people might still view it as a mental disorder. I was too young during those years, so I really have no grasp on what was going on politically at that time.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]However, I don't believe I said anywhere that religion was the only thing standing in the way of the legalization of gay marriage. I titled the thread "Christianity and Gay Marriage", because I wanted it to be clear that I was focusing solely on the religious aspect. If the discussion branches into other areas, I really won't mind, so long as it doesn't degenerate into petty squabbling over details as most threads of this nature do. So far, I am quite pleased with the responses. Everyone is being very mature, and more importantly, nobody has outright disagreed with me ;)[/size]
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[size=2]I focus on the religious aspect because I feel it is the greatest obstacle to homosexuals being allowed to marry. If the Christian ideology were to change in such a way that gay marriage was no longer so vehemently opposed, I think it would quickly be legalized.[/size]
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[size=2]Retribution,[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]I agree that it should be called a state marriage rather than a civil union. However, I am honestly more concerned with the rights being denied than the words used to describe the marriage. If I had to choose between homosexuals having no marriage rights, or to have marriage rights under a different name, I would choose the rights under a different name. Changes like these often need to come step by step. So long as the steps move forward towards equality, I think they are steps in the right direction.[/size]

[kalon]

I think a lot of this depends upon how you define "marriage." And no, I'm not referring to the gender aspect specifically. There are couples who go to a church and get married there. There are also people who just get their marriage certificate. The fact that atheists can get married in the eyes of the law says to me that "marriage" is a legal contract stating two people are agreeing to be together. That might be a blunt way to put it, but if legal marriage has nothing to do with religion, only the decision of two adults, I see no reason why gay people can't be married.