Christianity and Gay Marriage

[Zen]

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I'm the kind of guy who thinks that as long as no one is being hurt or disturbed, that people just need to mind their own damn business. It's not going to affect me whether or not Gays and Lesbians marry or not, save possible tax deductions they would recieve just like any other marriage. Even then, the regular marriages go down the crapper at an alarming rate (I believe it was a +50% divorce rating), so I don't see how it would make a large impact on anyone. Two people who love each other want to marry and devote themselves to one another, and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. If they want to take it on a religious level, then atleast you're eliminating promiscuity, and allowing devoted relationships rather than what the right-wingers would label "orgies in the streets". Lots of contradiction. I mean, if they want to say that being gay is a sin, then they should also remember that sins can be forgiven (but many people, myself included, don't think it's wrong). There are more sins in the Bible than just homosexuality. Sins like judging people when you are in no position to do such.

Hm... more contradiction.

I think you should fight for what you believe in, but don't fight other people over what they believe in unless it's physically affecting you or others. I think that conservatives are trying to make the world the way they think it should be, with no homosexual relationships at all. But banning marriage isn't halting gays and lesbians from living with one another, owning property with one another, and etc. It's just creating an even more hostile enviroment in a country that's split apart as it is do to a war. On that note, also, what's up with homosexuals not being aloud in the military? The administration just continues to create more and more problems for itself due to it's spiritual standing, even though that shouldn't matter in government in the first place...

That's me.[/color][/size]

[The13thMan]

[quote name='RiflesAtRecess][size=1][font=arial]I don't see the point in it being illegal to begin with. If you're not gay, then gay people getting married isn't going to affect [b]you[/b], Christian or not. I don't understand why people always feel the need to step in when they have no business there. I could understand if they were going to ban homosexuals from Christian churches or something, but to take that a step further and just outright ban them from having legal benefits as a couple is BS.[/font'][/size][/quote]
[COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]I think the main reason people don't leave other people alone when they're not being hurt by it is because of another Christian ideology. And that is to love thy neighbor, or something like that. Basically they want to help people. They want to spread their faith and convert the nonbelievers. It's obvious they do. Missionaries, and those door to door christians, Jehova's witness? I think that's what they're called. They think being gay is wrong and that if you're gay you'll go to hell, so they step in and try to help. Which, if they're right and gays go to hell...then i don't even know if it'll help or not. I think it'll become more likely that a person will move away from god instead of homosexuality. I mean, i even hold love over god, though i am straight. =D

Anyways, Adahn, i don't think you really wrote anything too eyeopening. I've heard the like before, it was a good point then and is a good point now. I think as a whole our nation is becomming more and more open minded and liberal, so perhaps in a century gays will be allowed to do what they want.

I also think there's too much religion in politics, but what can ya do? Politics needs morals and most people draw their morals from religion... I sure as hell don't know the solution.

Later.


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[Adahn]

[size=2]Don't Christians also go to prisons to talk to murderers? They tell them that God will forgive them if they ask for it, because no sin is unforgiveable.[/size]
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[size=2]Is homosexuality an unforgiveable sin, worse than murder? Can you be a murderer and go to heaven, but not be a homosexual and go to heaven?[/size]
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[size=2]I think that on some level, Christians want to bring homosexuals to God, but why can't they understand that they're going about it all wrong? There can be love between men, as deep and profound as any love that exists between men and women. There is no sin in love, yet the Christian ideology would have homosexuals believe that the love they share is sinful. It is not the love that is a sin, but its expression can be a sin.[/size]
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[size=2]I do not wish to compare gay sex to incest, but I have no choice. They are right next to each other in the Bible, on the same page of the Old Testament, with the same punishment. I repeat, I [i]do not[/i] mean to compare gay sex and incest in any other way than correlative examples of love taken too far in God's eyes.[/size]
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[size=2]It's ok to love your daughter, mother, or sister with all your heart. It is not ok to express that love sexually.[/size]
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[size=2]It's ok for men or women to love each other with all their hearts. If you follow the old testament [u]to a letter[/u], it is not ok for men to express their love through anal penetration.[/size]
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[size=2]The bottom line is that the Christian ideology has condemned the love and the sex. Neither condemnation is made with God's authority, especially the former. The latter is personal, between men/women and God.[/size]
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[size=2]It is not the good Christian's place to try to fix homosexuals. It only serves to alienate them. If you want to help them, accept them. We're all the same, whether we be your average Joe sinners, murderers, or homosexuals. At least, that's how God sees us.[/size]
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[Retribution]

[size=1]Very true, Adahn.

You have no right to remove the splinter from your neighbor's eye when you have a plank in yours, right? Christianity is waaaay presumptuous for the "it's for your own good!" thing. Christ will determine what was sinful and what was petty at the Final Judgment, no?[/size]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][QUOTE=Adahn]Aaryanna_Mom,

I am grateful for the insight you have offered. I hadn't really considered that people might still view it as a mental disorder. I was too young during those years, so I really have no grasp on what was going on politically at that time.

However, I don't believe I said anywhere that religion was the only thing standing in the way of the legalization of gay marriage. [/QUOTE] I could be mistaken but based on your original post here:[QUOTE=Adahn]Generally, gay marriage is opposed by the Christian ideology. The
reason for this, I believe, is that a certain act act male homosexuals
can engage in is a sin. It is from this that the Christian ideology
is repulsed. Voting to legalize gay marriage would condone this sin,
and so the ideology instructs its followers not to vote to legalize
it.[/QUOTE]It gave the impression that the main objection to Gay marriage came from Christian ideology. And if I understand what Aaryanna_Mom is saying here, a lot of the people in position to politically push these bills to deny them rights through and to rally others to vote for them, all of them are old enough to remember when homosexuality was considered a mental disorder.

The problem is you didn?t really clarify that you were only addressing one aspect of why people object to gay marriage. You just went straight into how that Christian ideology was flawed. She was pointing out that for many people it wasn?t one of Christian values but one of a sickness that needs to be treated instead of supported. [QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]For a while, I was for civil unions. After careful deliberation, I am now against them. I believe that calling it a "civil union" just because the couple is gay is a manifestation of [b]separate but equal[/b], which was ruled unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court a while back.

If the two are the same -- civil unions and state marriage -- it is discrimination to call them different things if they perform the same function. It's an impermissible compromise, a stab at appeasing the moderates on the issue who just feel "uncomfortable" calling it a marriage. Suck it up, call it a state marriage, and call it a day.[/size][/QUOTE]I don?t think she was talking about the name used so much as she was agreeing that they should have the same privileges and rights one gets from getting married.

In the end I agree that it?s pointless to keep denying them the same right. If it really is a sin, then since it does not affect you or me, then that?s their choice to make. I don?t believe in God so I don?t see it as a sin. And if God does exist, again we are back at the point of that?s his call to make. [/COLOR]

[PWNED]

Personally, I'm all for same-sex marriages and find that the legilisation of it can only help the morale of the public. However, a large percentage of the population of countries like America and Australia are offended by homosexuality because it conflicts with their ideals. And the politicians, not wanting to lose a chunk of the voting public can only prevent gay marriages so that the voters will be pacified.

BTW:

[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Albert Flasher

In Canada, for example, gay marriage is completely legal. It has been for a few years now, and the world hasn't come crashing down around our ears. Fireballs havn't rained down from the heavens, the earth hasn't opened up and swallowed us whole, we havn't been sunk to the bottom of the ocean.[/QUOTE]

It's not like Satan can enter one of the countries that is closest to being heaven, eh?

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=indifference][color=darkred] I could be mistaken but based on your original post here:It gave the impression that the main objection to Gay marriage came from Christian ideology. And if I understand what Aaryanna_Mom is saying here, a lot of the people in position to politically push these bills to deny them rights through and to rally others to vote for them, all of them are old enough to remember when homosexuality was considered a mental disorder.

The problem is you didn?t really clarify that you were only addressing one aspect of why people object to gay marriage. You just went straight into how that Christian ideology was flawed. She was pointing out that for many people it wasn?t one of Christian values but one of a sickness that needs to be treated instead of supported. [/QUOTE]
[size=2][color=black]A large number of people who grew up learning that homosexuality was a mental disorder also grew up during a time when blacks were widely considered sub-human. It's been 34 years since 1973, when the American Psychiatric Association decided homosexuality was no longer a mental disorder. This surely is something important and interesting to consider, but if it is such a large detractor to gay marriage, why have I never heard of it being brought up as a valid reason to oppose gay marriage?[/color][/size]
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[size=2][color=#000000]People's opinions change, and I think that enough time has passed for homosexuality being viewed as a mental disorder to be a thing of the past. I may be wrong in this, because I didn't live in that time, but I still think that if Christianity were to cease its fierce opposition to gay marriage, all other reasons to oppose gay marriage would have an insignificant ability to stop it from being legalized.[/color][/size]

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[Gavin]

[QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]The politics of a nation can be manhandled by the "majority" and I believe that even the majority can come to a wrong consensus as a collective and that they, unfortunately, often do. I do not hold anything against Roman Catholics or their demographic majority in Ireland but just because there are a bunch of people with one opinion doesn't make that opinion more valid once you step outside of the stupid Democratic "We're a huge group of people! That makes this decision a good one!" viewpoint.

Grant them that freedom. If God cannot embrace as much liberty as man can then, well.

The children have surpassed their father.[/color][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]I wasn't saying that the majority can't make mistakes Ken, far from it, for far too long Ireland covered up a lot of it's worst clerical abuses for fear of what "the neighbours" might think. I was just saying that a democratic government elected by the majority of the voting populace shouldn't try sneak approaches to legalise things. It should be put before the people in a referendum and given the same priority as any other important issue.[/SIZE]

[Anakoni Stark]

[SIZE=1] I dont see anything wrong with gay marriage. I mean if a guy and a guy [or a girl and another girl] are madly in love with each other, then let them get married.
plus: [spoiler] a gay couple should go through the same hell as a straight couple[/spoiler] on that note I'm not [I]that[/I] homophobic[/SIZE]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[QUOTE=Adahn][size=2][color=black]A large number of people who grew up learning that homosexuality was a mental disorder also grew up during a time when blacks were widely considered sub-human. It's been 34 years since 1973, when the American Psychiatric Association decided homosexuality was no longer a mental disorder. This surely is something important and interesting to consider, but if it is such a large detractor to gay marriage, why have I never heard of it being brought up as a valid reason to oppose gay marriage?[/size]
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[size=2][color=#000000]People's opinions change, and I think that enough time has passed for homosexuality being viewed as a mental disorder to be a thing of the past. I may be wrong in this, because I didn't live in that time, but I still think that if Christianity were to cease its fierce opposition to gay marriage, all other reasons to oppose gay marriage would have an insignificant ability to stop it from being legalized.[/color][/size][size=2][/size] [/color][/QUOTE]What I was trying to originally say was that Christian values were not the only reason why people opposed homosexuality, it is perhaps the most compelling one, but even still a lot of people I know still think of it as a disorder as well as being a sin. I think we are at a phase where Christianity is taking its place as a means to oppose those who are gay. Where before it was considered more of a disease and something to pity instead of being a grave sin.

My whole point to begin with is that there is the implication that Christian values are the only reason why people object to it. I do not think that is what you meant, but the conversation was resolving around it and I remember a time when I actually believed it was a mental disorder. And even to this day I still struggle with accepting that it is not and with the aspect of it being a sin.

Indifference nailed it on the head completely, a lot of people involved in politics grew up thinking it was a disorder, and when that was thrown out they grabbed on to the sin aspect to keep their fear of those who are gay in check. Having been put on the spot that it wasn?t a mental disorder they could rally the people using the sin tactic, something that upon reflection I find a bit disgusting.

So in the end I was merely trying to say that even though it?s not used anymore, it doesn?t change the fact that some of us think that way. It?s not easy to drop things you?ve learned as a kid, or to accept something you do not agree with. Or as some would put it, learn to be tolerant. To accept that it?s not your place to make other?s choices for them.

Retribution: indifference is again right, I really do not care what it?s called, and Civil Union is simply the first term I thought of. I?m thinking along the lines of granting the same rights and benefits that all married couples get. Whether or not they call it marriage or not is merely semantics in my opinion. Giving them the same benefits is what I consider to be important.

[DeadSeraphim]

[size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]There's a pretty easy solution here: if you're gay, move to Canada.[/font][/color][/size]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]Ugh, I don't believe this. People fighting over trivial concepts based on ignorant beliefs... how little distance have we traveled? I find it hard enough to believe that people still believe in the bible much less that they can be so close-minded and willing to push themselves so hard over something so pointless. So to guys are married. Are you going to go to hell? No. So who cares? Jesus freaking christ, dude, how can we be so cruel to some people? Aren't our lives our concern? Can't we pull our heads out of our own ***** before shoving them up someone else's?

Denial of basic rights... some people sicken me. By the way, what the hell happened to treating others the way you want to be treated? [/COLOR]

[Adahn]

[size=2]Well, you've got some [i]fire[/i] in you, don't you DB? Fire is good, as it drives us to have purpose. That purpose needs to be honed into action, though. The action that those supporting gay marriage tend to use is force. They want rights, and by golly, they're going to fight for them![/size]
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[size=2]My strategy, however, is the use of gentle persuasion. I strike at the heart. It is not my will to force gay marriage into the legislation. I want people to accept it of their own will. It will make me more enemies, though, as my form of persuasion is more dangerous and effective than force. Since I am not attached to any church, the Christian ideology holds no sway over me. I think and speak freely, with no fear of consequences.[/size]
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[size=2]Your input on the issue rings strikingly true with me, DB. Except, of course, the bit about people still believing in the Bible. The Bible has some very good ideas, and I think following it [i]correctly[/i] will lead to equality and perfection. I do not claim to [i]know[/i] the correct way to follow it, but it is my will to find the correct path.[/size]
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[2010DigitalBoy]

[quote name='Adahn][size=2]Your input on the issue rings strikingly true with me, DB. Except, of course, the bit about people still believing in the Bible. The Bible has some very good ideas, and I think following it [i]correctly[/i] will lead to equality and perfection. I do not claim to [i]know[/i'] the correct way to follow it, but it is my will to find the correct path.[/size][/quote]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]That may be true, but I can think of a good many other books with some great advice that don't rely on rediculous stories and religious cults run by corruption and lies. Good ideas... if you're Hitler.

As for your comment on using force, think not that it was my intension to be forceful. Wether gay people are married or not is a matter of the populace's poor conciencious effort. My imput means nothing, and I don't care the outcome.[/COLOR]

[Albert Flasher]

[quote name='DeadSeraphim][size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]There's a pretty easy solution here: if you're gay, move to Canada.[/font][/color'][/size][/quote][FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]
[COLOR=Sienna]
Yessir... we could always use a boost to our waning macrame industry... and Loverboy record sales are at an all-time low... any help would be appreciated![/COLOR][/FONT]

[QUOTE]The Bible has some very good ideas, and I think following it correctly will lead to equality and perfection.[/QUOTE][FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]
[COLOR=Sienna]
The depends entirly on what you consider the Bible to be. I agree that the New Testement has some good ideas and some wholesome ideals, but the problem is that people always seem to focus on the Old Testement, which is a mishmash of smiting and sacrificing and the like. That's where the whole "Homosexuality is a sin!" buisness came from, or at least the majority of it. I'm no Bible scholar, and I'm in no way a Christian, but I seem to recall something about Jesus dieing so that we could ignore all that Old Testement garbage and focus on the "Peace and Love!" stuff that he preached. After all, don't Christians follow the word of Christ, and not the word of some random philosopher with a grudge against gay people?

Back to my original point... far too many people don't descriminate between the Old and the New Testements, which has lead to the current amount of prejudice against people because of a simple preference. Funny how many Christians have forgotten what the word means.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[DeadSeraphim]

[QUOTE=Albert Flasher][FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]
[COLOR=Sienna]
Yessir... we could always use a boost to our waning macrame industry... and Loverboy record sales are at an all-time low... any help would be appreciated![/COLOR][/FONT]

[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]
[COLOR=Sienna]
The depends entirly on what you consider the Bible to be. I agree that the New Testement has some good ideas and some wholesome ideals, but the problem is that people always seem to focus on the Old Testement, which is a mishmash of smiting and sacrificing and the like. That's where the whole "Homosexuality is a sin!" buisness came from, or at least the majority of it. I'm no Bible scholar, and I'm in no way a Christian, but I seem to recall something about Jesus dieing so that we could ignore all that Old Testement garbage and focus on the "Peace and Love!" stuff that he preached. After all, don't Christians follow the word of Christ, and not the word of some random philosopher with a grudge against gay people?

Back to my original point... far too many people don't descriminate between the Old and the New Testements, which has lead to the current amount of prejudice against people because of a simple preference. Funny how many Christians have forgotten what the word means.[/COLOR][/FONT][/QUOTE]
[size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]Yeah, that's true. Jesus basically said "You know all the convoluted and complex laws in the Old Testament? Yeah, ignore them." But, you know, the Old Testament has all the quotable "h8 gays!!!" passages, so most Christians who're against homosexuality aren't too concerned with what Jesus had to say about it. Then you have the people who follow their Church's stance, not the actual words in the Bible (see: Catholics), and further still you have the sects that made their own tomes on top of the Bible that just happen to explicitly outlaw it (see: Mormonism, Jehova's Witnesses). At the core of it though, Jesus' new message of love and most of the un-appended New Testament has sweet **** all to say about homosexuality, and less still to say about it being an abominable sin.[/font][/color][/size]

[Dodeca]

[quote name='2007DigitalBoy][COLOR=DarkOrange']That may be true, but I can think of a good many other books with some great advice that don't rely on rediculous stories and religious cults run by corruption and lies. Good ideas... if you're Hitler.[/COLOR][/quote]

[SIZE=1]Could you [i]be[/i] more offensive to Christians [COLOR=DimGray][and, since they too follow the Old Testament of the Bible, Jews - which makes that last comment all the more inappropriate][/COLOR] everywhere?

Not all Christians oppose gay marriage - I for one couldn't care less how someone else chooses to live their life - heck, I don't even oppose abortion or euthanasia. I can understand why you may feel as you do - I used to feel the same way - but do try to hold your tongue, in respect for those of us who aren't li'l Hitlers, okay?[/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[quote name='2007DigitalBoy][COLOR=DarkOrange']That may be true, but I can think of a good many other books with some great advice that don't rely on rediculous stories and religious cults run by corruption and lies. Good ideas... if you're Hitler.[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]You fail. Godwin's Law has been invoked. If you want to debate about the legitimacy of the Bible, do so intelligently and articulately.[/size]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[QUOTE=Dodeca][SIZE=1]Could you [i]be[/i] more offensive to Christians [COLOR=DimGray][and, since they too follow the Old Testament of the Bible, Jews - which makes that last comment all the more inappropriate][/COLOR] everywhere?

Not all Christians oppose gay marriage - I for one couldn't care less how someone else chooses to live their life - heck, I don't even oppose abortion or euthanasia. I can understand why you may feel as you do - I used to feel the same way - but do try to hold your tongue, in respect for those of us who aren't li'l Hitlers, okay?[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]Oh believe me, I could probably be more offensive to Christians. And yeah, what I said was wrong. Especially since I'm of Jewish heritage and my great grandparents actually were escapees of WW2.

And no, I will not hold my tongue. Why? Because the actions of few are the responsibility of all, myself included. EVERYTHING is EVERYONE'S fault. What I say in offense, I say to all of mankind.[/COLOR]

[SomeGuy]

Funny enough, the official Catholic stance on homosexuality is that it's pretty straight-up biological; you indeed do not choose to be gay, nor are people turned gay because of bad parenting or anything stupid like that. Doin' the sex thing is still bad, though, just as pre-marital heterosexual thing is still bad. Essentially, the Catholic Church says being gay is okay, but doing that other stuff isn't; and of course, they're still standing firm on the whole gay marriage thing. Still, I just find this interesting . . . kinda progressive, but in that subtle churchey way.

I live in British Columbia, it's already legal here, I say cool. I'm glad this is a less-issue for me.

[Justin]

America is not a Christian nation. Nor should it be. I pray there will never be another Christian nation ruled by mankind. When Christ wants a nation, he'll come back and rule it himself. For I'm sure God knows that we men all-too-often think we are God.

-Justin

[Boo]

[quote name='2007DigitalBoy][COLOR=DarkOrange']EVERYTHING is EVERYONE'S fault.[/COLOR][/quote][size=1]Really, no.[/size]

[Drix D'Zanth]

It is interesting to see the assorted Otakuites go on an anti-religious diatribe whenever a gay marriage debate starts up. I thought through this debate critically for a long time, and I?ve gone over the arguments with my friends. There are a few premises that are being assumed right off the bat with some of the arguments I?ve seen here. Let me point out which I think are and aren?t legit:

1. [u]Everyone has a right to pursue happiness[/u]: I think this is fair. It?s right there in the founding document of our nation (changed from the original ?pursuit of property? Locke idea to ?happiness? by Jefferson). Obviously, we set normative and legal limits to our pursuits. I can?t justifiably take my neighbor?s pool in my pursuit of happiness. Everyone has individual rights as well.

Here?s the question that follows in my mind: Is granting marriage to homosexuals going to have no exterior social or economic impact?

2. [u]Marriage is about love[/u]. This would ideally be true, but our legal society cannot really define love. I doubt this is true in most instances of marriage. This argument does not really hold water when I look at it; we should not justify legalizing marriage for this reason if we cannot even define objectively what it is!
3. [u]Homosexuals cannot get married[/u]. This is where the 2nd premise falls apart. Homosexuals cannot legally be married. However, there is nothing preventing them from that religious/spiritual union. Ask yourself; when are you going to consider yourself married, at the alter, or at the (judge?s) bench?
4. [u]By not changing our current legal establishment of marriage to include homosexuals, we are doing something morally reprehensible[/u]. This seems like a fair argument. Indeed, it might be true in the end. I think the central focus of the argument is sociological, not moral. Both sides take an ethical stance. Some invoke what they earnestly believe is divine instruction, others invoke a sentimental argument with a pseudo golden-rule (?If you were gay, wouldn?t you want the right to get married??).
What do you think are the benefits toward a society that allows for legal homosexual marriages? What do you think are the disadvantages? Do you think these civil liberties should apply to instances of polygamy or incest relationships (obviously, the slippery-slope argument isn?t really one that holds too much water with me, but it is worth addressing)?
5. [u]You are born gay[/u]. I am not opposed to this argument, but I think the burden of proof requires some evidence. No one (from what I?ve seen, correct me if I?m wrong) has cited any evidence in support of this argument.
6. [u]The Bible is against homosexuality [/u]. It is mentioned in Leviticus; which is arguably ?fulfilled? by Jesus. Paul also mentions it in Romans as being sexually immoral. Historically, sex is not a huge focus for early Christians. The real genesis of our sexual focus comes about from St. Augustine (probably the 3rd most influential Christian of all time, after Paul).
If the Bible, or some other religious text doesn?t serve as your moral guidebook, where would you say your morals come from (I?m just curious, not challenging)?

I think this is enough for now.

BTW: Boo, nice sub-title ;).

[2010DigitalBoy]

[quote name='Boo][size=1']Really, no.[/size][/quote]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]why not? And why are such brief, offtopic posts allowed so often? Mine included.

...and seriously, why IS this an issue?[/COLOR]

[Adahn]

[size=2]I was wondering if/when you would show up, Jordan.[/size]
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[size=2]First of all, there really haven't been any arguments. Not one person who has replied to this thread says we should keep gay marriage illegal. You yourself, Jordan, have taken no stance on the issue with your post, although I assume by your nature and the nature of your reply that I have not shaken your values.[/size]
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[size=2]Secondly, I [i]have[/i] used the Bible as my moral guidebook.[/size]
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[size=2]And then the middle...stuff. 1-5 have little to do with what I have said. As for 6, the Bible lists homosexuality as a sin. The Bible is as much against homosexuality as it is against driving 56 mph in a 55 mph zone. It is the Christian ideology, the Christian majority, the group of people themselves that make this sin worthy of ostracism and oppression.[/size]
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[size=2]Frankly Jordan, I'm disappointed in you. You have completely avoided the nature of what I have written. I am an optimist, through and through. I'm all about saving as many souls as possible. I am going to make a statement that you may or may not agree with, but one that I would like you to address.[/size]
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[size=2]The Christian ideology, in vehemently denying homosexuals the rights associated with a civil union, keeps those homosexuals from accepting God, damning them to death, when otherwise it could relent, [i]allowing[/i] those homosexuals to come to God and making available to them the path to salvation.[/size]
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[size=2]The ideology, and all who support it in this way, then, commit the greatest of sins, which is to actively prevent people from accepting salvation and eternal life.[/size]
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[size=2]I tried being subtle and nice, but that doesn't work sometimes. No matter how much you try to deviate from [i]this[/i] issue, I will bring us back to it. I will continue to strike at the heart of this issue, which involves God and the [i]souls[/i] of all those involved.[/size]