Is crime acceptable?

[Mythologicly]

I would like to ask you if you think its ok to commmit a crime just to survive. When i say this i mean should a person be arested for selling drugs if its the only job they could do and they used the money to support there famliy.

I say its ok, and a person shouldn't be commited for a crime if its there only option cause life is hard and trying to rise a family with no job or to young to work makes it even harder.

so what do you think.

[Raiyuu]

Edited thread title. Use capitals and spell things right in future.

By your logic all any drug dealer would have to do is claim he has no other job and he'd be allowed back on the streets to sell drugs, giving current addicts higher dependency and creating new addicts, contributing to an ever-spiralling vortex of drug-fuelled despair.

And if said drug dealer genuinely had no other means of income, where's he getting his drugs from?

Not to mention your logic fails utterly when applied to other situations. Sorry I killed your mum, I needed her purse because I had no money. Sorry I broke into your house, I needed your TV to sell because I have no money. I'm onyl doing it to survive, honest guv'nor.

There are charities dedicated to providing food, warmth and shelter for the homeless, so in the end selling drugs or killing grannies is never, ever the only possible recourse. Yes, raising a family is hard with no money, so if you've got no money give your little sailor a raincoat and you can put off having a family until you have a job.

[Mythologicly]

[QUOTE=Raiyuu]Edited thread title. Use capitals and spell things right in future.

By your logic all any drug dealer would have to do is claim he has no other job and he'd be allowed back on the streets to sell drugs, giving current addicts higher dependency and creating new addicts, contributing to an ever-spiralling vortex of drug-fuelled despair.

And if said drug dealer genuinely had no other means of income, where's he getting his drugs from?

Not to mention your logic fails utterly when applied to other situations. Sorry I killed your mum, I needed her purse because I had no money. Sorry I broke into your house, I needed your TV to sell because I have no money. I'm onyl doing it to survive, honest guv'nor.

There are charities dedicated to providing food, warmth and shelter for the homeless, so in the end selling drugs or killing grannies is never, ever the only possible recourse. Yes, raising a family is hard with no money, so if you've got no money give your little sailor a raincoat and you can put off having a family until you have a job.[/QUOTE]

for the first part i understand what your saying, but to tell if that dealer is telling the truth just check to see if there lieing. any way the charities dedicaded to food, warmth, etc. only help few cause i know many people who hae been turned down for things like that. Also most people i know who have sold drugs alredy had families and had to support them on there own with no job.

[Retribution]

[size=1]I think crime is morally and ethically acceptable if your survival depends upon it, but I don't think it should be legal for the reasons Raiyuu mentioned. Allowing crime for survival opens the door for all sorts of crazy scenarios, and an eventual deterioration of legal precedent.

But if you've got a family to feed, I'm saying stealing from 7-11 shouldn't bug your conscience.[/size]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]How about this. Instead of legalizing the obvious crime of stealing, why not heal the economy, create a government that isn't war-hungry, and unite peoples under peace. Then, you know, this problem wouldn't exist. [/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='2007DigitalBoy][COLOR=DarkOrange']How about this. Instead of legalizing the obvious crime of stealing, why not heal the economy, create a government that isn't war-hungry, and unite peoples under peace. Then, you know, this problem wouldn't exist. [/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]While ideal, it won't be happening for quite some time, if ever. Again, if you're a single parent with no way to afford food, stealing food might be a better bet than waiting for the federal government to eliminate poverty.[/size]

[Johnny Justjohnny]

[QUOTE]for the first part i understand what your saying, but to tell if that dealer is telling the truth just check to see if there lieing.[/QUOTE][SIZE=1][COLOR=Gray]

Do you know how much it would cost to run an extensive backround check on every drug-sifting drifter who claims that they only did it because their family needed it etc? Information on those type of people can be very hard to get and police forces aren't miracle workers, they don't have time to devout a cop to every sob story that comes their way. It simply isn't feasable.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[QUOTE]Also most people i know who have sold drugs alredy had families and had to support them on there own with no job[/QUOTE][SIZE=1]
[COLOR=Gray]
And? Maybe it's time those people grew up and got a real job. Maybe not a great job, but start somewhere, work your way up to respectabilty, rather then hanging around on the bottem rungs of society feeling sorry for themselves. Plus by letting these people deal drugs they just add to the problem, creating more people with no jobs and no money and families to support. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

[QUOTE]I think crime is morally and ethically acceptable if your survival depends upon it, but I don't think it should be legal for the reasons Raiyuu mentioned.[/QUOTE][SIZE=1][COLOR=Gray]

See, here I disagree. Why should the crime's victim suffer because of the criminal's plight? What about a baker who works hard all day making bread in the heat, and then puts his wares on display to try and earn a profit, only to have someone walk along and take it without paying? How is that fair to the baker? Or what about in more extreme cases, do you agree to mugging someone in a dark ally because they have the money a criminal needs to feed its family is 'morally and ethically acceptable'? [/COLOR][/SIZE]

[QUOTE]How about this. Instead of legalizing the obvious crime of stealing, why not heal the economy, create a government that isn't war-hungry, and unite peoples under peace. Then, you know, this problem wouldn't exist.[/QUOTE][SIZE=1][COLOR=Gray]

Impossible. There will always be crime because there will always people who have more. More money, more food, more whatever, there will always be people with more, and people who want more and are willing to cheat to get it. Communism was a form of government that tried to eliminate that division, but it turned out to be a miserable failure. Even if you DO eliminate poverty, all you get is a bunch of rich people trying to steal the money from other rich peoplle (which is worse because it's just greed without a hint of the survival instinct).[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Mythologicly']for the first part i understand what your saying, but to tell if that dealer is telling the truth just check to see if there lieing. any way the charities dedicaded to food, warmth, etc. only help few cause i know many people who hae been turned down for things like that. Also most people i know who have sold drugs alredy had families and had to support them on there own with no job.[/quote]Checking to see if they are telling the truth is a waste of time. Drugs tear families apart, so are you really saying we should let them destroy others just to make money? Nonsense. All that would do is add to the problem and lots of drug dealers make plenty of money, not just enough to support their families either, which is why they even, do it in the first place.

It?s one thing to steal a loaf of bread because you?ve had nothing to eat for days, but to sell illegal drugs and destroy families to feed just one is stupid and shortsighted. A lot of money could be better spent on making more charity help available to those who need it instead of being used to fight drugs being sold and putting people in the position of wanting to sell drugs to make ends meet or using what little they make to support their drug addiction instead of feeding their kids.

[Mythologicly]

[SIZE=1]
[COLOR=Gray]
And? Maybe it's time those people grew up and got a real job. Maybe not a great job, but start somewhere, work your way up to respectabilty, rather then hanging around on the bottem rungs of society feeling sorry for themselves. Plus by letting these people deal drugs they just add to the problem, creating more people with no jobs and no money and families to support. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

Let me tell you about some friends of mind wich is why i did this thread.

first antonio he was 13 years old he had no money and he was running out of food.
His mom was always gone and doing god knows what when she was away and he diddn't even know who his dad was. So he stole food from stores and it was never even fancy food just things like chips,pops,etc. And one day he was couaght and got i think 3 years in DH and it was all because his mom was a loser and it was the only way to survive. and no one even stoped to ask the mom any questions.

My second on devon he was 12 years old his dad died when he was five the mom spent most of her time partying and sleeping around after his death. He had 3 briothers and 2 sisters to rise and he was to young to work so all he could do was sell drugs to make a living. And its not like he was living like scareface or anything he only made enough to help his family out. Even though his dead now its not his folt that his life came out that way.

[Raiyuu]

[quote name='Mythologicly]He had 3 briothers and 2 sisters to rise and he was to young to work so [b']all he could do was sell drugs to make a living.[/b][/quote]
[center][IMG]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g110/Raiyuu/Zingers/WRONG.jpg?t=1170758033[/IMG][/center]

There is always an alternative. I refuse, point-blank, to accept that selling drugs was the only option. And I'll just reiterate my earlier question, where did he get the drugs from in the first place?

It's terrible that your friends have had such hard times, but there are charities and government initiatives whose only purpose in existence is to help people in their situation. Poverty affects far too many people in the so-called 'civilised' world but I'm not going to start justifying theft and dealing because of it.

The justice system is built on equality, and if you start saying "okay, Mr White would go to jail for stealing a loaf of bread but Mr Black gets off scot-free from the exact same offence just because he's poor" then you're going to get outrage, discrimination and eventually everything crashing down around your ears.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Big Sky][SIZE=1][COLOR=Gray]See, here I disagree. Why should the crime's victim suffer because of the criminal's plight? What about a baker who works hard all day making bread in the heat, and then puts his wares on display to try and earn a profit, only to have someone walk along and take it without paying? How is that fair to the baker? Or what about in more extreme cases, do you agree to mugging someone in a dark ally because they have the money a criminal needs to feed its family is 'morally and ethically acceptable'? [/COLOR'][/SIZE][/quote]
[size=1]Well, I'm assuming that the baker isn't on the brink of starvation/poverty/malnutrition. It's not fair to the baker, and I'm being presumptuous but the starving person needs it 'more'.[/size]

[Panda]

Oh this poor baker!

You guys who are saying it's okay to steal from the baker are forgetting that it takes money to make money. The baker has to pay for his store, the electricity, the baking supplies, taxes and his employees. Now you have all these people stealing from them. He's got to cut costs for the loss. Gonna have to raise prices. Bread keeps getting stolen. I guess we've got to fire some employees. Too bad. The families they were working hard to support are now poor too. Not earning any money for all of his hard work since only thieves get the bread the baker is forced out of business. Too bad, now there isn't a store to steal from. Now they've all got to steal food. So off they go to join the ranks of poor and move on to the next hard working business to run them out of business.

Crime is wrong. If you are poor there are plenty of charities that are there to help people get back on their feet. My little town of 16,000 people has a food bank open to those who can't afford food. Goodwill helps train people for jobs. There are also hundreds of jobs available for those who want them in the free newspaper. Many of them, because this is a rural area are farming related. If you can do physical labor the work is there. No language barrier or special education needed. I know of two churches that run soup kitchens too. There are many places to get help if you look.

There are alternatives to crime.

[2010DigitalBoy]

[quote name='Big Sky]Impossible. There will always be crime because there will always people who have more. More money, more food, more whatever, there will always be people with more, and people who want more and are willing to cheat to get it. Communism was a form of government that tried to eliminate that division, but it turned out to be a miserable failure. Even if you DO eliminate poverty, all you get is a bunch of rich people trying to steal the money from other rich peoplle (which is worse because it's just greed without a hint of the survival instinct).[/COLOR'][/SIZE][/quote]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]That was my point. God, please pay attention.

Also, a 'miserable failure?' How so? (not that i support communism, if it were up to me we'd have a monarchy)[/COLOR]

[Boo]

[size=1]I agree with the pandas on this one.

Besides, perhaps the baker is as nice to give him a bread (in return of an errant?) if you explain your situation and ask him kindly. :) Because there are like, nice people in the world every now and then.[/size]

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson]The Communist society that was formed in the USSR and spread should not be said to be anything resembling what Marx or Engels intended with their ideas. Specifically the political system implemented by the Bolsheviks, where you have one 'Party' ruling over everything despotically, is particularly flawed and pretty far removed from the descriptions of a classless, stateless utopia you read in the Manifesto. Unfortunately the system of government the USSR used was copied by every other Communist country that existed. It spread like a disease.

I'd like to take the time I'm not making the argument that any other attempt to implement a communist society would work since it's very idealistic, impossibly so. It's just simplistic to say "Communism has failed" as there are a bunch of Trotskyist and others who would bitterly disagree with you.

Much more complicated than that.[/color]

[Mythologicly]

There is always an alternative. I refuse, point-blank, to accept that selling drugs was the only option. And I'll just reiterate my earlier question, where did he get the drugs from in the first place?

They got the drugs from other dealers, you know big pays little guy to work for him so he wont have to do it himself.

It's terrible that your friends have had such hard times, but there are charities and government initiatives whose only purpose in existence is to help people in their situation. Poverty affects far too many people in the so-called 'civilised' world but I'm not going to start justifying theft and dealing because of it.

Diddn't i say that he couldn't get any help weather its coming from the goverment or charity .

The justice system is built on equality, and if you start saying "okay, Mr White would go to jail for stealing a loaf of bread but Mr Black gets off scot-free from the exact same offence just because he's poor" then you're going to get outrage, discrimination and eventually everything crashing down around your ears.[/QUOTE]

I diddn't say anything about race in this conversation i know pleanty of white boy's who live the same way. And besides its not like there's any discrimination going on in the world today.

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Panda]Oh this poor baker!

You guys who are saying it's okay to steal from the baker are forgetting that it takes money to make money. The baker has to pay for his store, the electricity, the baking supplies, taxes and his employees. Now you have all these people stealing from them. He's got to cut costs for the loss. Gonna have to raise prices. Bread keeps getting stolen. I guess we've got to fire some employees. Too bad. The families they were working hard to support are now poor too. Not earning any money for all of his hard work since only thieves get the bread the baker is forced out of business. Too bad, now there isn't a store to steal from. Now they've all got to steal food. So off they go to join the ranks of poor and move on to the next hard working business to run them out of business.[/QUOTE][size=1]Sorry Panda, that's a logical fallacy. Seldom does a slippery slope exist.

I'm not really trying to defend thieves. I'm not trying to defend crime. I just want everyone to ask themselves [i]why[/i] this person is driven to crime.[/size]

[Panda]

Logic, what a fun class to take in college huh Retri!

Yes I know all about slippery slope, straw man and all that other wonderful stuff. I used it as an example since this entire idea of crime is okay if you are poor is, in itself, a logical fallacy of playing upon the emotions of people for pity (argumentum ad misericordiam). Now it's been quite some time since my college Logic classes so if I am incorrect on that term please feel free to correct me.

Asking people to think about why they commit the crime is also playing upon their emotions which is agrumentum ad misericordiam. So your statement is also a logical fallacy Retri. ;)

Valid, invalid, not invalid...all that stuff aside. I still stand by my opinion that there are more opinions available for those who are in need of food. Crime is not the answer.

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=Panda]Oh this poor baker!

You guys who are saying it's okay to steal from the baker are forgetting that it takes money to make money. The baker has to pay for his store, the electricity, the baking supplies, taxes and his employees. Now you have all these people stealing from them. He's got to cut costs for the loss. Gonna have to raise prices. Bread keeps getting stolen. I guess we've got to fire some employees. Too bad. The families they were working hard to support are now poor too. Not earning any money for all of his hard work since only thieves get the bread the baker is forced out of business. Too bad, now there isn't a store to steal from. Now they've all got to steal food. So off they go to join the ranks of poor and move on to the next hard working business to run them out of business.

Crime is wrong. If you are poor there are plenty of charities that are there to help people get back on their feet. My little town of 16,000 people has a food bank open to those who can't afford food. Goodwill helps train people for jobs. There are also hundreds of jobs available for those who want them in the free newspaper. Many of them, because this is a rural area are farming related. If you can do physical labor the work is there. No language barrier or special education needed. I know of two churches that run soup kitchens too. There are many places to get help if you look.

There are alternatives to crime.[/QUOTE]

[color=dimgray] Can you think of more than five businesses that have been run down by common thieves? If you can, than disregard this, but I can't think of any.

And that's not even the main point. So many of you are boiling this down to a moral thing and disregarding the social aspect of it.

First of all, for people to be stealing for survival they'd have to be living in the worst conditions. Unless you're living in a poverty-stricken slum that is home to major social issues, bringing up examples of how many charities your community has doesn't do anything.

I'm not saying I know everything about slums/ghettos, but I'm pretty sure you can't just say "go to your local soup kitchen" and leave your argument at that. The charities available in such places are probably overrun and few. Operating charities is easier to do in places like suburbs and small towns, but when you really dig down and reach the worst living conditions there just aren't going to be as many. Not to mention, living in such conditions perpetuates racial and social stereotypes that lead to decisions like robbing or becoming a drug dealer.

Really, bringing up charities and organizations is sort of a cop-out to me.[/color]

[Johnny Justjohnny]

[QUOTE]That was my point. God, please pay attention.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Gray]
[SIZE=1]Was it? Hmm... Sorry about that, must'a been ranting.[/SIZE]
[/COLOR]
[QUOTE]Also, a 'miserable failure?' How so? (not that i support communism, if it were up to me we'd have a monarchy)[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Gray][SIZE=1]
Communism will never work and it has always failed to so - not the government itself, Communism is a fine idea. The problem is that it is impossible to implement Communism without it mutating into a veiled dictatorship. Simply, this is because the whole idea hinges on the main emptysuits in charge not being dicks, which is a proven impossibility. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

[QUOTE]The Communist society that was formed in the USSR and spread should not be said to be anything resembling what Marx or Engels intended with their ideas. Specifically the political system implemented by the Bolsheviks, where you have one 'Party' ruling over everything despotically, is particularly flawed and pretty far removed from the descriptions of a classless, stateless utopia you read in the Manifesto. Unfortunately the system of government the USSR used was copied by every other Communist country that existed. It spread like a disease.

I'd like to take the time I'm not making the argument that any other attempt to implement a communist society would work since it's very idealistic, impossibly so. It's just simplistic to say "Communism has failed" as there are a bunch of Trotskyist and others who would bitterly disagree with you.

Much more complicated than that.[/QUOTE][SIZE=1]
[COLOR=Gray]
I agree with you that the USSR wasn't true Communism, but I say Communism has failed because there is no way to avoid it degenerating into what the USSR became... the temptation for the leaders will always be to great.

Now that was offtopic...[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[QUOTE]Well, I'm assuming that the baker isn't on the brink of starvation/poverty/malnutrition. It's not fair to the baker, and I'm being presumptuous but the starving person needs it 'more'.[/QUOTE][SIZE=1][COLOR=Gray]

Maybe the Baker is so successful because he doesn't have some tramp running off with his wares all the time...

And it's not a matter of 'more.' It's a matter of 'deserve.' I sympathize with people who get shat on in life, but that doesn't mean that the Baker has any reason to be victimized by it - wether it be one loaf of bread, or a hundred, he worked hard to make it so that he can feed HIS familty. Like I said, I'm sorry for the people who don't have any other option, but there are too many people who are in that situation because of their own complacency and poor decision-making, it would be far to easy to abuse a situation like that. Those are the people that the truely misfortunate should blame. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Panda']Asking people to think about why they commit the crime is also playing upon their emotions which is agrumentum ad misericordiam. So your statement is also a logical fallacy Retri. ;)[/quote]
[size=1]Really, my argument is no appeal to emotion. I'm asking people to put aside their first reflex judgment of "Crime? That's horrible! They should be locked up!" Instead, I want people to see the [i]underlying social issues[/i] that drive these people to steal. Too quickly do people dismiss criminals as riff-raff and get on with their lives. True, many times criminals are stealing out of want, not need. But there are also those who steal out of need.

Pity is my last concern.[/size]

[Panda]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]Really, my argument is no appeal to emotion. I'm asking people to put aside their first reflex judgment of "Crime? That's horrible! They should be locked up!" Instead, I want people to see the [i]underlying social issues[/i] that drive these people to steal. Too quickly do people dismiss criminals as riff-raff and get on with their lives. True, many times criminals are stealing out of want, not need. But there are also those who steal out of need.

Pity is my last concern.[/size][/QUOTE]
I think I see where you are going now. When first reading that I took it as being more of a "think of why he steals" not an underlying cause on a social level. At first I thought you meant it along the lines of: "Think about the reason why he steals. The reason he steals is because he has starving babies at home. I don't want the babies to go hungry so it's okay!" line of reasoning versus a big picture view of things. Is this closer to the mark?

Lunox, I don't feel that mentioning charities and organizations is a "cop-out". I listed them as an alternative option to crime. Yes, they are not without flaws (few and far inbetween in some places) but they do help who they can. Since I don't know about large urban areas I used what I do know, my hometown as the example. You feel it's a cop-out. I feel they are an alternative to crime that is an option and should be mentioned.

[Mythologicly]

[QUOTE=Lunox][color=dimgray] Can you think of more than five businesses that have been run down by common thieves? If you can, than disregard this, but I can't think of any.

And that's not even the main point. So many of you are boiling this down to a moral thing and disregarding the social aspect of it.

First of all, for people to be stealing for survival they'd have to be living in the worst conditions. Unless you're living in a poverty-stricken slum that is home to major social issues, bringing up examples of how many charities your community has doesn't do anything.

I'm not saying I know everything about slums/ghettos, but I'm pretty sure you can't just say "go to your local soup kitchen" and leave your argument at that. The charities available in such places are probably overrun and few. Operating charities is easier to do in places like suburbs and small towns, but when you really dig down and reach the worst living conditions there just aren't going to be as many. Not to mention, living in such conditions perpetuates racial and social stereotypes that lead to decisions like robbing or becoming a drug dealer.

Really, bringing up charities and organizations is sort of a cop-out to me.[/color][/QUOTE]

Thats whats I've been trying to say but diddn't have the right words, in certain areas like mine charites dont help.

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=Panda]

Lunox, I don't feel that mentioning charities and organizations is a "cop-out". I listed them as an alternative option to crime. Yes, they are not without flaws (few and far inbetween in some places) but they do help who they can. Since I don't know about large urban areas I used what I do know, my hometown as the example. You feel it's a cop-out. I feel they are an alternative to crime that is an option and should be mentioned.[/QUOTE]

[color=dimgray] What I'm saying is that while your was in good interests, using your hometown as an example is not acceptable when you're talking about urban slums and ghettos that are below the poverty line.

Using the example of charities wouldn't be a cop-out in most cases, but in the situation where many people would be stealing for survival, I don't think it's applicable. [/color]

[Allamorph]

[FONT=Arial]I am going to make a definitive statement below, and I wish to first make a clarification. The statement is not to be taken as either one of those naïve people who hold ideas without really knowing why, nor as a holier-than-thou, Bible-thumping pious Christian whose been a Baptist all his life and sits in the exact same pew every Sunday. (You know who I'm talking about.) This statement is to be taken as an unchangeable Fact.

Crime is wrong.

Now, this is not to say that crime is situationally acceptable; it is simply what it is.
[quote name='Retribution][Size=1']But if you've got a family to feed, I'm saying stealing from 7-11 shouldn't bug your conscience.[/Size][/quote]
I agree. Or rather, seeing someone steal from a 7-11 won't bug [I]my[/I] conscience. (Besides the fact that it's a 7-11. :animesmil ) If a person steals a valuable item of mine out of desperation, I am going to be agitited because stealing is wrong, but I'm probably not going to do anything about it because I'm human and I understand that he had no other recourse.

Essentially, I am falling back to the old maxim "The ends cannot justify the means", while at the same time attempting to make a discintion between right/wrong and acceptability.[/FONT]