Is crime acceptable?

[Raiyuu]

I never said anything about race. I used 'Mr White' and 'Mr Black' as generic names. Change it to 'Mr Jones' and 'Mr Smith' if you like. The point I was making was that you can't tell me stealing is illegal and that I can be locked up for it, then walk over to your friend and tell [b]him[/b] he's allowed to steal food whenever he's hungry. Surely you can see that waiving the law based on circumstance doesn't make sense.

I don't pretend to know how drug dealers operate. But I'm sure that working as a mule isn't ever going to earn your friend enough money to get him out of his situation (which, with X number of brothers and sisters to support, I have to assume is his goal). Dealers aren't going to pay him enough money to improve his situation, because then they'd be down one mule; better to pay him just enough to survive, but not enough to move on, and then he has to keep coming back to work for them.

Therefore, the drugs route is [b]not[/b] the best option for your friend or his family. If the police catch him fencing then it's not the dealer going to jail, it's him - though at least he'll get fed in prison.

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Allamorph][FONT=Arial]Crime is wrong.

Now, this is not to say that crime is situationally acceptable; it is simply what it is.[/FONT][/QUOTE]
[size=1]For the sake of argument:

Of course crime is wrong. That's why it's considered crime. If it were not a crime, it would not be considered wrong. Which brings me to my devil's advocate question: is breaking the law justified? If so, is stealing food one of those acceptable laws to break?[/size]

[Mythologicly]

I have to ask a question for those who disagree iwth me on this subject. Have any of you ever been in a situation were you have to commit a crime. Nothing as bad as murder but have you ever had to steal anything or mugg some one or even commit a robbery just to make even for your famliy. I have even though its somthing I'm not proud of but i dont live that way any more yes :D.

I'm not saying you should try it and I'm not asking for sympathy but instead of being in the victums shoes try seeing from the attackers ppoint of view, if it was you would you commit a crime to survive.

[2010DigitalBoy]

[QUOTE=Mythologicly]I have to ask a question for those who disagree iwth me on this subject. Have any of you ever been in a situation were you have to commit a crime. Nothing as bad as murder but have you ever had to steal anything or mugg some one or even commit a robbery just to make even for your famliy. I have even though its somthing I'm not proud of but i dont live that way any more yes :D.

I'm not saying you should try it and I'm not asking for sympathy but instead of being in the victums shoes try seeing from the attackers ppoint of view, if it was you would you commit a crime to survive.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]No. Never. I've been poor before. I've been in a situation where I hardly had anything to eat and would occasionally 'skip dinner' or eat a snack or something. There IS no excuse for stealing. EVERYONE can find work. If you have to make excuses and steal and be a baby, you are worthless.

That's my take on it. (no sarcasm this time.)[/COLOR]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']...is breaking the law justified?[/size][/quote]
[quote name='Allamorph][FONT=Arial']Essentially, I am falling back to the old maxim "The ends cannot justify the means"....[/FONT][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]The Law here does not look at the situation. Either you stole and broke the law, or you did not steal and did not break the law. No grey area. The Law is rigid out of necessity; if all instances of law infraction were open to subjectivism, we would eventually be reduced to chaos.

However, individuals are permitted to exercise irrationality when dealing with the same scenario. Thus, we can choose to or choose not to justify the person's actions according to how we wish to set our standards. The Law does not have this luxury.

Now, under the Law, if a person steals food from another person, the Law has been broken and the person must be punished. The Law cannot look at the situation.

Now suppose you witness this theft, and you know that the thief had no other recourse. You justify his actions as necessary. (I would.) Then you learn that the offended person has had the thief arrested and taken to court. Since you have justified the thief's act in your mind, you now perceive the plaintiff as a douchebag. (I would.)

The trial goes through, and the thief is convicted, since, yes, he did commit the crime. The thought that runs through your mind now is, [I]?This isn't fair. The guy had no choice, and now he is suffering for something that was really out of his hands.[/I]

Thus you are left with two answers to your devil's advocate question. Yes, the crime is justified in your eyes. No, the crime is not justified in the eyes of the Court.

Which one takes precedence?[/FONT]

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]In a word, no, I don't think crime is ever acceptable.

I can understand that there will always been reasons for people to go out and commit crimes, be they motivated by greed or desperation in the case of stealing, or other factors in the cases of more serious crimes. Maybe it's hard hearted to simply straight out say that it is wrong to steal a loaf of bread to save your starving family, but unfortunately that is life. If you start legalising certain obviously wrong activities, how long can the fabric of the law be maintained.

I definitely sympathise with those in the position of having to steal, I donate money regularly to my local homeless shelter to try and provide something for people worse off than myself, but it's a case of simply being a government's responsibility to provide for it's most needy people. But I couldn't in good conscience say that it's OK for people to go out and steal to provide for themselves, after all someone else is losing out when theft happens.

Selling drugs on the other hand should be met with an iron fist. I'm sorry but like any right minded person I cannot accept that there are no alternatives to selling drugs that ruin other people's lives to raise the standard of your own, that's just a given. I simply can't accept that there is any logical argument for selling drugs to provide for a family, it's just wrong, plain and simple. [/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Gavin][size=1']In a word, no, I don't think crime is ever acceptable.[/size][/quote]
[size=1]Be careful there, Gavin. Interracial marriage was a crime for quite a long time in the United States.[/size]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']Be careful there, Gavin. Interracial marriage was a crime for quite a long time in the United States.[/size][/quote]

[SIZE=1]Yes Alex I do see your point but let's be fair here, how likely is it that theft is eventually going to be repealed as a crime ? Discrimination is one thing, normal law is quite different, and let's not muddle the two for the sake of argument.[/SIZE]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']Interracial marriage was a crime for quite a long time in the United States.[/size][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]True, but that was a subjective law with no precedent; it was enacted and enforced because some of my ancestors were morons with a screwed up mindset, not because there was actually anything wrong with interracial marriage.[/FONT]

[Johnny Justjohnny]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']Be careful there, Gavin. Interracial marriage was a crime for quite a long time in the United States.[/size][/quote][SIZE=1]
[COLOR=Gray]
Civil and Criminal law are two different thing. The latter is far less concrete then the former.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[size=1]I know, I know, everyone. I bring up the point [mostly for fun] to show that a law can be unjust, be it civil or criminal. And that's not to say that anti-theft laws for food are unjust (although I do think it a human right), but in a broader sense I want people to at least think about why this crime is illegal and 'wrong'. Too often do people quickly dismiss the issue if they can quickly equate "crime" with "bad" and get on with life.

And if people think on a deeper level than "crime = bad, arrest thieves," [i]why it's happening[/i] will become a more important question than "is it illegal or not".[/size]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][quote name='Retribution][size=1]And if people think on a deeper level than "crime = bad, arrest thieves," [i]why it's happening[/i'] will become a more important question than "is it illegal or not".[/size][/quote]Lots of people do think deeper about certain types of theft, they try to provide food and charity assistance to those down on their luck so they won't have to face the tough decision of considering stealing to feed their family. ;)

Not all thieves are so noble, plenty of them that have been caught had no reason to steal other than they wanted something without paying for it. Shop lifting anyone? Tons of merchandise that is stolen is cd's, dvd's and other small items that have nothing to do with feeding a family.

I understand what you are saying Retribution, but there is a lot of crime that has absolutely nothing to do with taking care of oneself or family. They may have bad things going on in their lives, but nothing that warrants stealing from others.
[/COLOR]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Mythologicly']I'm not saying you should try it and I'm not asking for sympathy but instead of being in the victums shoes try seeing from the attackers ppoint of view, if it was you would you commit a crime to survive.[/quote]

[color=crimson]Do what you want to do to live. Some people bust their butts in a couple of minimum wage jobs, some people decide to do something more drastic. Personally I'd have to be in really dire straits to rob someone or burglarize a place- like, I couldn't feed my family dire straits. Not "this is kind of uncomfortable" poor where you work your *** off for little reward. That would suck but, uh, crime wouldn't be the answer for me personally.

Do I judge people that do? Kind of. I'm not trying to sound cynical but crime, I'd imagine, is usually not done as a last resort but because it's easier than anything else. Go rob someone, make a few hundred bucks or more and that's two weeks pay at some minimum wage joint.

The broader social issues, the complex ethical questions and otherwise aren't their concern. The easiest way to get themselves some money is their concern. Sometimes maybe that's all they can do but not normally.

Whatever the case they let the richer people who have the free time to think about their actions and the larger picture do so. Let's not disappoint them eh.[/color]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Mythologicly]Diddn't i say that he couldn't get any help weather its coming from the goverment or charity .[/QUOTE]Or so he tells you. I've yet to run into a charity that outright refuses someone who needs food, unless they have nothing left in their food banks to give. :animesigh [QUOTE=Lunox][color=dimgray] Really, bringing up charities and organizations is sort of a cop-out to me.[/color][/QUOTE]And not mentioning them is a cop-out as well. They do exist and they do their best to help provide for people who don't have any food for themselves or their families.[QUOTE=Lunox][color=dimgray'] Using the example of charities wouldn't be a cop-out in most cases, but in the situation where many people would be stealing for survival, I don't think it's applicable. [/color][/quote]I understand what you are saying, the problem and mind you this is only from a few people I know, some people are so embarrased that they can't provide for their family they would rather steal than ask for help.

And for some people their religion provides charity. The LDS church has food storehouses that any member can go to their leader, present the problem and he'll give them a voucher to go there and get food, enough to feed their family anywhere from say a week to several months depending on the need.

But again, I've run into people who refuse to go even though their kids are starving.[QUOTE=Mythologicly]I have to ask a question for those who disagree iwth me on this subject. Have any of you ever been in a situation were you have to commit a crime. Nothing as bad as murder but have you ever had to steal anything or mugg some one or even commit a robbery just to make even for your famliy. I have even though its somthing I'm not proud of but i dont live that way any more yes :D.

I'm not saying you should try it and I'm not asking for sympathy but instead of being in the victums shoes try seeing from the attackers ppoint of view, if it was you would you commit a crime to survive.[/QUOTE]You just don't get it, lots of people have been in bad situations and never resorted to stealing to make ends meet. Or mugging someone else to take their money to buy food.

The only way I would even consider such an act is after I went to every charity organization I could find and got turned down. And even then, I would have trouble thinking it was okay to hurt others just to feed myself when I wouldn't be able to determine if stealing from them wouldn't put them in the same situation.

[Mythologicly]

[QUOTE=Rachmaninoff]Or so he tells you. I've yet to run into a charity that outright refuses someone who needs food, unless they have nothing left in their food banks to give. :animesigh And not mentioning them is a cop-out as well. They do exist and they do their best to help provide for people who don't have any food for themselves or their families.I understand what you are saying, the problem and mind you this is only from a few people I know, some people are so embarrased that they can't provide for their family they would rather steal than ask for help.

And for some people their religion provides charity. The LDS church has food storehouses that any member can go to their leader, present the problem and he'll give them a voucher to go there and get food, enough to feed their family anywhere from say a week to several months depending on the need.

But again, I've run into people who refuse to go even though their kids are starving.You just don't get it, lots of people have been in bad situations and never resorted to stealing to make ends meet. Or mugging someone else to take their money to buy food.

The only way I would even consider such an act is after I went to every charity organization I could find and got turned down. And even then, I would have trouble thinking it was okay to hurt others just to feed myself when I wouldn't be able to determine if stealing from them wouldn't put them in the same situation.[/QUOTE]

No you dont get it. I diddn't go to curch and on top of that I diddn't know about any and frist you would have to know about a charity to go to it. And even if I did how was i going to get there drive in the car we diddn't have or should I use money to ride the bus but isnt that the money for dinner so we can eat.

[Gavin]

[quote name='Mythologicly']No you dont get it. I diddn't go to curch and on top of that I diddn't know about any and frist you would have to know about a charity to go to it. And even if I did how was i going to get there drive in the car we diddn't have or should I use money to ride the bus but isnt that the money for dinner so we can eat.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]Mythologicly I am seriously questioning the nature of your situation here if you claim your friend or you (the story seems to vary) is in so dire a situation they/you were unaware about aid provided by charities or churches. On top of that, unless your local bus service charges an absolute fortune for it's usage, I'm pretty sure it's going to cost significantly less than the cost of dinner.

On top of all of that, if it is you who are in this situation, as you seem to indicate from the above quote, then what the hell are you doing running up your phone bill using the internet ? There are such little things called priorities. [/SIZE]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Gavin][SIZE=1']On top of all of that, if it is you who are in this situation, as you seem to indicate from the above quote, then what the hell are you doing running up your phone bill using the internet ? There are such little things called priorities.[/SIZE][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]There are also such little things called Public Access Computers, found in libraries and other various locations. (^_^)

Still, though, [COLOR=DarkRed]Gavin[/COLOR]'s point remains. If it is indeed you in this situation, why are you spending valuable time on the internet rationalizing your situation instead of using said time to search out job openings at, say, diners or fast food restaurants, thus providing the option to counteract the straits you seem to be in?

[quote name='Mythologically']...but instead of being in the victums shoes try seeing from the attackers ppoint of view, if it was you would you commit a crime to survive.[/quote]

Yes, I can see the situation from the attacker's point of view. And were I in that predicament, I would first exhaust [I]every[/I] alternative either that presented itself to me or that I had any hope of creating before resorting to violence and thievery, and then I would hate myself the entire time I was doing it.

That's pretty much the bottom line. Whether or not it's the only option (which I sincerely doubt), whether or not it's rationalized, and whether or not anyone else understands why it "must" be done, the fact remains that it is still wrong, and therefore [U]un[/U]acceptable. Pardonable, maybe, and dismissable in some cases, but nevertheless unacceptable.

I beg your pardon if I have offended you in any way, and you are free to ignore the rest of my post, as I will be directing the next segment at other parties.

[center]----------------------[/center]

[QUOTE=Retribution][SIZE=1]I know, I know, everyone. I bring up the point [mostly for fun] to show that a law can be unjust, be it civil or criminal. And that's not to say that anti-theft laws for food are unjust [B](although I do think it a human right)[/B], but in a broader sense I want people to at least think about why this crime is illegal and 'wrong'. Too often do people quickly dismiss the issue if they can quickly equate "crime" with "bad" and get on with life.

And if people think on a deeper level than "crime = bad, arrest thieves," [I]why it's happening[/I] will become a more important question than "is it illegal or not".[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Man, we really lambasted you there, hunh? :animeswea Ah, well....

Oh, and I was not entirely sure what you meant by the bolded statement. Could you perhaps clarify?

Anyway, I know what you're saying about the reasons [I]behind[/I] the offensive action, but that only returns me to my distinctions. The words I used before were not quite as accurate as I wold have liked them to have been, so I will start over.

I believe the issue is not so much whether or not the crime is [U]acceptable[/U] as whether or not it is [U]pardonable[/U]. And, for the record, I do not think the reason "I'm just trying to provide for my family" holds as much weight now as it did back in, say, the Medieval period, or the Middle Ages, when taxation was completely under the discretion of a [I]singel person[/I], who may or may not have been materlialistic and thus harsh in their extraction of funds from the lower classes. Times are a little better, taxation rests in the hands of more than one person (who may or may not work together unfairly), there are aid programs like (the much abused) Welfare system, and there are many more job opportunites (unless the person hiring is an absolute jerk). This is not to say it's any less valid a claim to make, just that there are more ways out of it then resorting to crime (which is also a much overused phrase).

Essentially, as far as theft/larceny is concerned: pardonable, maybe; dismissable, maybe; acceptable, no.

[I]Selah[/I][/FONT]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Mythologicly']No you dont get it. I diddn't go to curch and on top of that I diddn't know about any and frist you would have to know about a charity to go to it. And even if I did how was i going to get there drive in the car we diddn't have or should I use money to ride the bus but isnt that the money for dinner so we can eat.[/quote]Hun, it?s ridiculously easy to ask around and find out about charities in your area, saying you don?t know just shows that the person is unwilling to make an effort to find out. And it?s pretty common knowledge that all sorts of religions provide assistance to their members as well as other non-members.

Everything I am hearing from you is a justification of stealing instead of someone trying to find solutions.

Even saying you have no car is an excuse, especially if you belong to any type of religion, as often there are members who will help you go and get the food you need to feed your family. Something I have done myself when a poor family needed food, the church could help but the mother had no way to go and pick it up.

Stop making excuses when even your ability to be online gives you access to charity websites in your area, local news stations often list them along with their phone numbers on their sites. You can even call your city government, their number is always in the phone book, and they will direct you to whatever programs are out there in your area.

Rachmaninoff is right about how it?s rare for people to get turned down. There are charities out there that will give you food for a week, no questions asked, a couple times a year. And after that there are others you can apply for to get more.

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Mythologicly']No you dont get it. I diddn't go to curch and on top of that I diddn't know about any and frist you would have to know about a charity to go to it. And even if I did how was i going to get there drive in the car we diddn't have or should I use money to ride the bus but isnt that the money for dinner so we can eat.[/quote]Ummm? Yeah, Aaryanna_Mom already addressed this clearly, but all you do is keep coming back with more excuses, and if bus fare is such an issue, why the hell are you paying for the Internet when that money could be used to pay for the bus fare so you or the person can actually go and get some food from charities that will give it to you?

And even if somehow you have Internet that you don't have to pay for, why aren't you using it to find the information about charities since like Aaryanna_Mom pointed out, lots of charities have websites. In the end, finding help takes effort. And in the beginning of the thread you said charities wouldn't help, but if you don't know about them it stands to reason that you can't have asked them, so it's a contradiction to say they won't help if you haven't even asked.

Saying you don?t know about the charities doesn?t cut it either as it?s easy to find out about them. So in then end all I?m seeing is a justification to steal instead of someone trying to find real solutions.

[Gavin]

[quote name='Allamorph][FONT=Arial']There are also such little things called Public Access Computers, found in libraries and other various locations. (^_^)[/FONT][/quote]

[SIZE=1]A fair point, I hadn't actually considered it as my local library charges for internet usage.[/SIZE]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Gavin][SIZE=1]A fair point, I hadn't actually considered it as [U]my local library charges for internet usage[/U'].[/SIZE][/quote][FONT=Arial]Really.

How depressing.[/FONT]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Allamorph][FONT=Arial]Man, we really lambasted you there, hunh? :animeswea Ah, well....

Oh, and I was not entirely sure what you meant by the bolded statement. Could you perhaps clarify?[/FONT][/QUOTE][size=1]I think as a human, you are deserving of food, as well as shelter and clothing. It doesn't need to be first class cuisine or a Prada suit, but, well you see what I'm getting at.[/size]

[nomad19]

i always thought that crime is a necessary evil...

look at it, without crime...we wouldn't have cops...no matter how obnoxious some are they are in FACT making a living...

it's the same with poverty...some people go to extreme lengths just to feed their family...so yeah...it is acceptable

[Mythologicly]

[QUOTE=Gavin][SIZE=1]Mythologicly I am seriously questioning the nature of your situation here if you claim your friend or you (the story seems to vary) is in so dire a situation they/you were unaware about aid provided by charities or churches. On top of that, unless your local bus service charges an absolute fortune for it's usage, I'm pretty sure it's going to cost significantly less than the cost of dinner.

On top of all of that, if it is you who are in this situation, as you seem to indicate from the above quote, then what the hell are you doing running up your phone bill using the internet ? There are such little things called priorities. [/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I think awhlie back I said I dont live like that any more and as far as my friends go there both dead now do to what we were arguing about. Now to explain When I was 14 I was moved out of my old place and lived with my grandparents. Months later my mom got a good job were moving pretty soon. This is they turning point we started getting things llike the internet just last year and now I volunter at a rec center in my old neighborhood to stop kids from doing such things I relized that I have done much wrong and I dont want those kids to do the same. And there was no charitiy thiing were I use to live so I'm trying to get one started to help those who were like me and my freinds I want to give people a chance to find hope. :animesigh The that answer your question.