Yes Another Shooting [Not In A School]

[Rachmaninoff]

Sometimes it seems like all you see these days on the news is yet another pointless incident of violence. In this case a shooting in one of the malls in downtown Salt Lake City, Utah where I live. It?s still all over the news as they are finishing clearing out the mall searching for people who are hiding and don?t know that the shooter is dead along with five other people and at least three critically injured.

For more details: [URL=http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=888784][U]Shooting[/U][/URL]

It started around 6:45pm when the mall was loaded with shoppers, people eating out and all sorts of activities as there are movie theaters there as well, something I am well acquainted with since my friends and I often go there on the weekends for dinner and to see a movie. Hell I was just there last Friday no less.

And most importantly the whole reason for this thread, who else has had something happen like this, close to where they live? And what do you think about the trend of this type of walk in random shooting type of violence?

Me I don?t know what to think as it just disgusts me as I can?t even fathom a reason as to why someone would kill others especially when they probably didn?t know a single one of the people they shot.

[Kei]

[color=darkblue][size=1]Well, it wasn't necessarily close to where I live, but while I was in Florida over winter vacation, there was a mall shooting in Bryton Beach, which is pretty much right up the road from where I was staying. According to reports, it was something about gang rivalries that led up to the shooting in the mall. Neither of them were killed, but they were both arrested. I think there were a few injuries among the others in the mall, though.

As far as my opinion on the matter... Some people just simply have issues that they have trouble working out by themselves or with others and just put it in the worst form possible: violent outbursts. Whether or not they just need more specialized help or to be put in some sort of confinement program until they can handle themselves better, I don't know. However, as most would agree, some method of trying to help these folks out should be thought up. Just a thought.[/color][/size]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][QUOTE=Rachmaninoff]And most importantly the whole reason for this thread, who else has had something happen like this, close to where they live? And what do you think about the trend of this type of walk in random shooting type of violence?

Me I don?t know what to think as it just disgusts me as I can?t even fathom a reason as to why someone would kill others especially when they probably didn?t know a single one of the people they shot.[/QUOTE]Right now this incident is the closest one to where I live since like you said, its been all over the news since it started. >_< And like you I?ve been there many times, though it?s been a while since the last time I went up to Trolley Square.

There was one a bit closer in one of the schools, but somehow the students were caught before anyone was actually shot fatally and only a few people were hurt instead of being killed.

Honestly I wonder if it?s a growing trend, or if things like this are just getting more news coverage than they use to, though I agree with Kei, obviously we need better programs to at least try and help people who are struggling with mental issues. Though how you would go about that I haven?t a clue.

I?ve had some pretty rotten things happen to me in my life time but I?ve never once thought to pick up a gun and shoot someone else, so I don?t understand why people actually do such a thing.

But even more important, I'm glad none of my friends who live in Salt Lake City were involved in that horrible mess. [/COLOR]

[Sandy]

I'm surprised but glad that there weren't more casualties, the shooting taking place in a crowded mall. I also feel very lucky for living in a small, peaceful country where guns aren't "free market" items.

[QUOTE=SunfallE][COLOR=RoyalBlue]
Honestly I wonder if it?s a growing trend, or if things like this are just getting more news coverage than they use to, though I agree with Kei, obviously we need better programs to at least try and help people who are struggling with mental issues. Though how you would go about that I haven?t a clue.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

The keyword is [I]pre-emptive work[/I], which means that people should get help in the troubling situations in their lives [I]before[/I] they lose their mental health. Poverty, unemployment, poor social care, lack of education, organized crime... it's all those things that drive people into despair and desperate actions.

I honestly believe that if the US government would've put all that money that went to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars into social- and health care, there would be so much less internal problems over there. But that's another issue of debate, and I wouldn't want to go there in this thread.

My heart goes out to the loved ones of those who died - including those of the killer.

[Redemption]

[quote name='Sandy']I also feel very lucky for living in a small, peaceful country where guns aren't "free market" items.[/quote]

[size=1]I know what you mean Sandy.

Ever since the Port Arthur Massacre in Tasmania, strict gun laws have been enforced in Australia. All publicly owned automatic and most semi-automatic weapons were bought back by the government and destroyed. I say most because I know that some semi-automatic shotguns are allowed (under very very strict guidelines).

I say all this because I think some gun laws could have prevented a few of these shootings. But like the others have mentioned, preventing a person from getting to that stage in the first place would probably be the better solution, and would benefit everyone overall.

Erg..... I sound like a teacher or something to that description when I reply to these types of threads. Bah! Back to the Square I go.[/size]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][quote name='Rachmaninoff]And most importantly the whole reason for this thread, who else has had something happen like this, close to where they live? And what do you think about the trend of this type of walk in random shooting type of violence? [/QUOTE]Well I can now officially say that for a walk in random shooting this is by far the closest one to where I live. Literally. I live with walking distance of Trolley Square. And since my stop to get off the Trax from the university is the one only a block from it, I tend to stop in at the mall several times a week. Including yesterday, though I left for home more than an hour and a half before the shooter showed up. And I can honestly say it?s a very uncomfortable feeling to even think about it. [QUOTE=Rachmaninoff']Me I don?t know what to think as it just disgusts me as I can?t even fathom a reason as to why someone would kill others especially when they probably didn?t know a single one of the people they shot.[/quote]As sad as it is, usually it is attributed to some sort of mental break down. Also things like Sandy mentioned are a problem like Poverty, unemployment, poor social care, etc. And those who come from abusive families as well will often snap. One of the best ways to combat something like this is some form of pre-emptive work to help as many as you can like Sandy mentioned. [QUOTE=Sandy]I honestly believe that if the US government would've put all that money that went to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars into social- and health care, there would be so much less internal problems over there. But that's another issue of debate, and I wouldn't want to go there in this thread.

My heart goes out to the loved ones of those who died - including those of the killer.[/QUOTE]It?s a nice sentiment Sandy, but not to be mean. I honestly believe that if the US government didn?t waste that money on Iraq and Afghanistan, I can pretty much guarantee you that they would have found something else to waste it on. It disgusts me but health and social care is practically on the bottom rung when it comes to funding around here. [quote name='Redemption][size=1']I say all this because I think some gun laws could have prevented a few of these shootings. But like the others have mentioned, preventing a person from getting to that stage in the first place would probably be the better solution, and would benefit everyone overall.[/size][/quote]I think stricter gun laws would help too but like the health and social care, you?d think it was the end of the world that someone might restrict their right to have a gun. Or in the case of the companies be required to provide good health care for their employees. They?ve been arguing over the law that won?t allow guns on campus here since those with a concealed weapons permit think they should be allowed to bring one on campus. But like the social and health care that?s another topic altogether.

As for this whole incident I have mixed feelings. I?m relieved that I was not there when it started and at the same time I feel bad for those who were hurt and killed. It certainly creeped me out to get home and find out what had happened though. [/COLOR]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

Lately it seems like these sorts of things keep happening closer and closer to where I live. It's very hard for me to comprehend at times since this sort of thing didn't happen when I was a kid. At least where I lived that is. And from my viewpoint the world just keeps getting more and more violent.

I agree that the system here in the US is severely lacking in some areas, but at the same time that's also an excuse as well. Even though there are terrible cases and we can say that society failed them. On some level, especially if there isn't a clear case of mental issues. In the end the person still chooses to pull the trigger. They still choose to go to the place and take their weapons with them.

It was sickening to watch the news last night and yet not know for hours what had truly happened. And then when they finally did tell us, I felt so bad for the poor families that lost loved ones.

I can also understand your sentiment Sandy about living somewhere more peaceful, because when I first moved to Utah, that's exactly what it was like and for the first twenty years or so that I did, it was wonderful to live in such a low crime area. Something that sadly is no longer true anymore.

[Panda]

I first heard about the mall shooting last night from Aaryanna. My thought and prayers go out to those suffering in the community especially the families of all those involved. Listening to the news this morning reported that 5 people and the 18 year-old shooter have been killed.

For me the closest I have to a similar incident was a few years back. Before Columbine and all the other school shootings there was one in my hometown. A troubled kid named [u][URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Loukaitis]Barry Loukaitis[/URL][/u] killed 3 people in a school shooting. My hometown is small so everyone pretty much knows everyone in this town. I currently live about 5 minutes away from that school. Heck, we only have one high school! The teacher who tackled Barry and held him down till the cops came was one of my former teachers. I know some of the vicitims' families from taking care of their pets at the vet clinic I worked at. This was probably the worst event in our town's history. Some of the victims families have moved away because it was too difficult to stay here. What is left are the memories and a memorial outside of the school for the victims. It's all just sad.

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=DarkRed]The whole thing is just so sad. >_< I know people have problems, but I just can?t imagine hurting or killing someone over it. No one I know was hurt, but at the time it was really frightening since there are people I do know that live up there. And not just Rachmaninoff and indifference.

I have relatives who live in the Salt Lake area. Not as close as Rachmaninoff and indifference, but close enough since my cousins like to ride the Trax and go and visit the malls and Trolley Square is one of their favorite spots. It?s a fun place since it?s quite different from the standard mall. It?s a historical site as well and the second biggest tourist attraction in Salt Lake City. It?s loaded with lots of fun and unique shops so it?s always busy when it?s open.

I?m really glad my family and friends are fine, but I feel so bad for the ones who did lose loved ones. [/COLOR]

[eleanor]

[color=dimgray] Nothing like that really happens in my city. I live in an affluent, well-off suburb, so there's no violent happenings or anything. The closest "shootings" my school has had was when a kid brought a gun and shot it in the parking lot (during the weekend) and when the police arrested a student when he posted a list of people he wanted to kill at our school on his Myspace.

But we have the hush-hush crime, like drug dealing and the minor alcohol thing, like every other suburb in America. [/color]

[Johnny Justjohnny]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=Gray]I live in Montreal, and not to long ago, September of last year, there was a major school shooting in Dawson College. Kimveer Gill (who was not a student at Dawson, and, so far as we can tell, had no connection to it) marched in, wearing a trenchcoat and toating a pair of low-power rifles and converted-to-full-auto guns, and opened fire.

Astonishingly, there was only one death - thanks to the much-maligned Canadian gun laws, Kimveer couldn't aquire heavy-duty weapons and all the 19 other students injured recovered fully (including a girl who was shot twice in the head - she was in a coma for about a month and recovered completely). Anastia de Susa was the girl who died, and Kimveer killed himself after he had been shot in the arm and leg by the police.

It was an absolutely senseless act of violence. Kimveer had been posting about it for weeks on his blog (hosted at vampirefreaks.com... shockingly) and he never mentioned any motive. He was just a sick, twisted, misguided nutter who shot up a school one day. Unfortunate as it is, there really is nothing that can be done about it - there will always be crazy people, and they will always get their hands on guns. Such a sad reality... I feel really bad for people who are victimized by these sick looners, especially the ones who deliberatly target places full of young people, like malls or schools. Bastards.[/COLOR][SIZE=1][/SIZE]

[Ozymandius Jones]

[COLOR=DarkOrange][SIZE=1]There was an incident near where I live in Lancaster Pennsylvania not too long ago...a gunman went on a rampage in an Amish schoolhouse, let all the boys and adults go and then shot a bunch of little girls.

It was the freakiest thing to happen around here, because, well...the Amish are pacifists. You don't [i]hear[/i] about people hurting them. And the thing that made it the worst to hear about was they didn't even have phones to call the police: the boys had to go running to find a house with electricity.

I don't like to hear about people dying, period, but this was one of those cases where my first instinct was "GOOD" when I heard the gunman had died. =\[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[sbsp13668]

[COLOR=DarkRed][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Well, like it says down in my signature I don't like it at all either. And since I live in a big city shootings are quite common v_v And yep some of these acts of violence have occured very close to my home. Actually at my old house my mother saw one of the murderers going to dumped the body which was just down the street from my old house and then a few hours later one of our neighbours who was taking her dog for a walk undug the body and called the cops. I was just a little kid at the time but I saw the murderer that went to bury the body too and I guess ever since I saw the look on the murderer's face I've been pretty good at judging people by their facial expressions and behaviour and I dislike violence! ^.^; Spooky isn't it? Maybe I should be a cop...? ^.^ We get lots of murders and crap here and I'd love to help. But it's unfair that someone thinks they have the right to go and take someone else's life away, even if they take their own with it! Actually I really really hate people who have to commit suicide and kill someone with them! I mean couldn't they just kill themselves and spare the poor other person...?[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[size=1]Everyone notices the sensational killings. There was a sniper on the loose in the DC Metropolitan Area a few years ago, completely random killings. It lasted quite a while, and there were something like 20 casualties.

But that's a pretty small number for this area. I think the DC Metro Area had something in the neighborhood of 300+ homicides that year, which is ridiculous per capita.

All I'm saying is don't let the news fool you. Homicide is a very frequent occurrence. Just because it happens in a mall shouldn't affect your attitude towards such things. It shouldn't take a mall shooting to make you see the danger of guns. Hell, it happens several times a week over here.[/size]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=darkred][quote name='Retribution][size=1']All I'm saying is don't let the news fool you. Homicide is a very frequent occurrence. Just because it happens in a mall shouldn't affect your attitude towards such things. It shouldn't take a mall shooting to make you see the danger of guns. Hell, it happens several times a week over here.[/size][/quote]There's no danger of any of us in Utah thinking that such things don't happen. But it doesn't change the fact that they are shocking when they do occur. Especially after being told this by the news at the very beginning of 2007:
[INDENT][SIZE=1]The Salt Lake Tribune said there were 48 homicides in Utah in 2006 compared to 59 in 2005, while Deseret Morning News said there were 46 last year and 54 in 2005. The Deseret Morning News does not count acts of self-defense or auto-related homicide.[/SIZE][/INDENT]
Full article here: [URL=http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=768813]Homicides[/URL]

It's a bit of a slap in the face to feel like things are improving only to have something so drastic happen. And it brings to home just how deadly guns really are and how easy it is for people to get their hands on one.

The real shock is that someone would kill so many people that they had never met, not that guns are dangerous. ^_~[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Aaryanna][COLOR=darkred']The real shock is that someone would kill so many people that they had never met, not that guns are dangerous. ^_~[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]"Guns are dangerous" is not the shock, it is the realization many people come to after a spurt of violence. I'm saying it shouldn't take a spurt of violence to mobilize people against homicide and the factors that contribute to it.[/size]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']I'm saying it shouldn't take a spurt of violence to mobilize people against homicide and the factors that contribute to it.[/size][/quote]A lot of people are against violence and homicide and the factors that contribute to it. That's what makes such high profile cases like this so shocking. That in spite of making getting a gun harder [In Utah: State law requires gun buyers to go through a state-based criminal background check in addition to the federal NICS check.] this sort of thing still happens.

I understand what you are saying Retribution, but the fact that things like this happen doesn't mean that the people or the authorities aren't working on fixing the factors that contribute to it.

Take this case, the police have already determined that the shotgun was obtained legally. No matter how hard we try, in the end we can't be looking over everyone's shoulder or reading their mind. You can work your butt off trying to be prepared and yet this sort of thing will still occur.

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

I suppose the only thing you can say in this case is that it's a needless tragedy, six people dead including a young girl of only fifteen can only be described as such. I guess like Redemption and Sandy the fact that I come from a country where gun ownership is subject to heavy restriction makes these kind of crimes all the more senseless. I mean do people really believe firearms are that necessary that placing limits on what kind of guns can be bought will completely strip away their ability to feel safe ? Do people really need handguns and automatic rifles and pistols to protect themselves and their homes ?[/SIZE]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Gavin][SIZE=1']I mean do people really believe firearms are that necessary that placing limits on what kind of guns can be bought will completely strip away their ability to feel safe ? Do people really need handguns and automatic rifles and pistols to protect themselves and their homes ?[/SIZE][/quote]I agree with you, guns do not make you safe and the feeling that they do is an illusion for most cases.

When I was married my husband did have rifles that were used for hunting, but since I got divorced and he took them with him, I have never gotten a gun to replace it since I feel they solve nothing.

And before Aaryanna was born one my neighbors lost a son when he found it and accidentally shot himself. It was so horribly sad and unnecessary.

I can understand the need for the law to have them and I even support my brother who has them in his home as well. But then he spent his whole life working as a Sheriff so on some levels it was expected.

But even he would turn around and tell you that for most people having a gun is a liability instead of increasing your safety as so many people have no real training in using them and storing them safely.

[Guest Luck]

You're right, everywhere on the news is either a killing (almost always involving a gun) or another "update" on whatever is happening to Anna Nicole Smith. All I can say is sorry to the people affected by this shooting. Luckily, since suburbs do not usually have shootings I never dealt with anything like this. The city I live near however, does. In the first 9 days of 2007 there were ten deaths. In the newspaper the other day the front page had an article on how the mother of a teenager gave the kid a gun because he lost a fight. That boy went and shot the other kid he fought with.

What I think on the issue? Some people kill for money or revenge, and others due to problems. These people need help. I've had problems and needed stuff before, but I never thought, "Hey, I'm going to go shoot someone." These people need help and gun laws.

[Gavin]

[QUOTE=Aaryanna_Mom]I can understand the need for the law to have them and I even support my brother who has them in his home as well. But then he spent his whole life working as a Sheriff so on some levels it was expected.

But even he would turn around and tell you that for most people having a gun is a liability instead of increasing your safety as so many people have no real training in using them and storing them safely.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]I completely agree with your brother, I've got three uncles in the armed forces and another two cousins in the police and all of them say the same thing, that civilians/normal people neither need nor should be allowed own anything without first having been properly trained.

One thing I have never understood about the anti-gun-restriction group is the claim that then only the criminals will have access to firearms, but if there are less firearms being imported into a country then would that not limit the number on the streets ? I don't know, really I'm just thankful you can only own hunting shotguns and rifles in Ireland, heck only certain members of our police are even armed.[/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']I understand what you are saying Retribution, but the fact that things like this happen doesn't mean that the people or the authorities aren't working on fixing the factors that contribute to it.[/quote]
[size=1]I get what you mean, but every time a highly tragic school shooting occurs, there's this moral-panic-inspired debate over gun control, when in fact this debate shouldn't have needed a shooting to spark it.[/size]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']I get what you mean, but every time a highly tragic school shooting occurs, there's this moral-panic-inspired debate over gun control, when in fact this debate shouldn't have needed a shooting to spark it.[/size][/quote]Gun control is already debated quite a bit here in Utah. And I agree with what you are saying, but debating gun control wasn't my goal here.

Instead it is that what surprises me the most is that someone attacks people they don't know and kills them. That's what makes this seem so pointless and sickening. Even if they couldn't get a gun, I don't understand or rather I can't relate to what drives someone to even feel the need to act in this manner.

Even if we take all the guns away, I wonder if it would stop people who feel driven to hurt others, I wonder if they would simply find another means to harm people. So that's really what has me the most shocked over this. The trying to understand the thought process that lead them to such a violent solution.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']Even if we take all the guns away, I wonder if it would stop people who feel driven to hurt others, I wonder if they would simply find another means to harm people. So that's really what has me the most shocked over this. The trying to understand the thought process that lead them to such a violent solution.[/quote]
[size=1]A man is angry and fed up with the world and decides he just wants to hurt as many people as possible before dying.

Scenario 1: Man gets a semi-automatic weapon and ammo, goes to a mall during peak business hours and opens fire. Many are killed (let's say he kills 20, which isn't tough to do in a mall), while hundreds are wounded. Mall police with their pistol sidearms have a time of taking the man down, but can do it before the SWAT need to be called.

Scenario 2: Man can only obtain a machete and maims 5 people before being taken down in a hail of bullets.

Is there really a debate here?[/size]

[Rachmaninoff]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]A man is angry and fed up with the world and decides he just wants to hurt as many people as possible before dying.

Scenario 1: Man gets a semi-automatic weapon and ammo, goes to a mall during peak business hours and opens fire. Many are killed (let's say he kills 20, which isn't tough to do in a mall), while hundreds are wounded. Mall police with their pistol sidearms have a time of taking the man down, but can do it before the SWAT need to be called.

Scenario 2: Man can only obtain a machete and maims 5 people before being taken down in a hail of bullets.

Is there really a debate here?[/size][/QUOTE]You forgot Scenario 3: Man decides that in the end he has no reason to harm someone else and commits suicide.

So that's the debate, why do some actually follow through where others may think about it but do not?