Slavery: Trying to atone, but why now?

[Rachmaninoff]

I was browsing through the news articles online when I came across this one on how a Memphis congressman is working on a bill, that if it is passed, would bring an apology for slavery done in the past by the US to a federal level. The full article can be found here: [URL=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17522875/][B]Article[/B][/URL]

As the article states, the FBI announced that it is actively reinvestigating about a dozen cases where blacks were slain in the 1950?s and ?60s as possible civil rights violations and that they are considering quite a few more cases to check for similar treatment.

And since it?s been decades since those crimes happened and as the article states and nearly 142 years since the civil war ended and slavery was abolished, why are public officials trying to make amends now?

On some level I can understand it, since the whole issue of slavery and the resulting struggle to gain equal recognition among the rest of the US is a struggle that still occurs. But I wonder if it wouldn?t be better to spend our time on improving opportunities for education, jobs and other things. Not that I think an apology is a bad idea since horrible things were done to those who were brought to America as slaves and it?s been a hard fight for them to get better civil rights. It?s more of a when do we stop apologizing for something our ancestors did? Or rather other people?s ancestors since my family came to America well after the civil war.

So I?m curious to see what the rest of you think about this.

[Retribution]

[size=1]I think the government owes those exploited in the past a formal apology. It's not that Bush or those alive today are responsible for the atrocities their fathers committed, but that the United States and the federal government as an entity is responsible for condoning those acts. As it stands, there has been no formal admittance that the US government was at fault for things like the Trail of Tears, slavery, etc, and I find that disgusting. It's not wasting time when it come be better served improving current situations, because preparing a speech that says "We're really sorry this stuff happened in the past as a result of the US government" isn't really all that time consuming.

And trying those who committed horrible crimes of the past is part of justice. Sure, the perpetrators might be dead by now, but it is our obligation to bring their names to justice and as a result, help give closure to the families affected.

I really did appreciate it when the Pope had that day of mourning, atonement, and apology for the things the Catholic Church did wrong.[/size]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=DarkRed]I think an apology is in order since there was so much more done than slavery, blacks still suffered under segregation and separate-but-equal laws that were anything but equal as it put them in the position of being considered second-class citizens.

Even the Mormon Church is guilty of this and the last thing I read on it last year indicated that the church never apologized for barring blacks from the Mormon priesthood until June 1978. And though they finally did change the policy to allow it, they never apologized for this horrible statement here:

[INDENT]Check out this 1966 quote from Bruce R. McConkie -- a top church authority who eventually joined the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. It is cited by leading anti-Mormon critics Jerald and Sandra Tanner in several of their books and articles.

"[B]Negroes[/B] in this life are [B]denied the Priesthood[/B]; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. (Abra. 1:20-27[B].) The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them... negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned[/B], particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom, but this inequality is not of man's origin. [B]It is the Lord's doing[/B], is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the [B]lack of Spiritual valiance[/B] of those concerned in their first estate." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 527-528) [/INDENT]
So in all honesty, some form of apology as well as continuing to make things more equal are in my opinion a must. I think it makes both the government and the Mormon Church as well as any other place that has committed wrongs against so many people, look as if they only changed because the law forced them to instead of out of any real remorse for the wrongs that were committed.

If nothing else, putting that apology on a federal level will be an indication that racism on a large scale isn?t going to be tolerated anymore. [/COLOR]

[Sazumechan]

Well i think its a little too late for that.I mean i know slavery is wrong and i am totally against it but i dont think we should still be dwellling on it.i think they should spend there time doing something more important like coming up with a bill baning abortion.that is killing lives now.not trying to make up for running so many,years ago.

[Aaryanna_Mom]

It's never too late for an apology, or as in this case, to make amends since there still a big gap between opportunities for blacks vs whites. On some level it disgusts me that people think there is no need to apologize as if the fact that it happened so long ago makes it unnecessary to apologize.

It's not so much about trying to make current leaders responsible, but rather the government finally coming forward and saying we were wrong and we'll do our best to make sure things get better and more equal. Obviously that's not an easy task and there will always be a level of inequality, but it shouldn't be because we aren't doing things to keep it more open and equal for everyone.

And to be honest, it does bother me that the Mormon Church has yet to apologize, since I've run into cases of racism towards black members even after they were given equal status as far as holding the priesthood goes. Things that make me ashamed of the members who could think they are somehow better than another human being.

And I could easily get long winded on the horrible things I ran into as a child when I was living in Texas before I later got married and moved here. The whole thing should never be forgotten and it's about time that a formal apology was issued. In my opinion that is.

[vegeta rocker]

If our government is going to apologize on a federal level, i think that is great.

As long as it doesn't turn out to be like that one guy who was trying to make it so that if you could trace yourself back to slave lineage than you would get a monthly check.

[John]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']I think the government owes those exploited in the past a formal apology. It's not that Bush or those alive today are responsible for the atrocities their fathers committed, but that the United States and the federal government as an entity is responsible for condoning those acts. As it stands, there has been no formal admittance that the US government was at fault for things like the Trail of Tears, slavery, etc, and I find that disgusting. It's not wasting time when it come be better served improving current situations, because preparing a speech that says "We're really sorry this stuff happened in the past as a result of the US government" isn't really all that time consuming.[/size][/quote] Well see, that's where you've gotta start being careful about this stuff. Because when you take that line of thinking you're in severe danger of thinking of the government no longer as an ever-changing collective of individuals but as a singular, enduring entity, which it isn't.

If our administration apologizes on the part of the government, it's a little bit like one business apologizing for the wrongdoings of the business that used to inhabit their building.

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1]I think the government owes those exploited in the past a formal apology.[/size][/QUOTE]You see this is what I don?t understand, why do they owe it to them as you speak when you?ve admitted that the current administration had nothing to do with what happened. [QUOTE=Retribution][size=1']United States and the federal government as an entity is responsible for condoning those acts. As it stands, there has been no formal admittance that the US government was at fault for things like the Trail of Tears, slavery, etc, and I find that disgusting.[/size][/quote]But on the same line of reasoning, the government as an entity is responsible for abolishing slavery, I am not familiar with the Trail of Tears. I?m sure it?s important, I just do not remember it from my history classes as it?s been to long since I?ve had one. I?m not trying to be difficult here, but I really do not see how it?s disgusting. Should we turn around and praise the government for abolishing slavery as well? [QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]It's not wasting time when it come be better served improving current situations, because preparing a speech that says "We're really sorry this stuff happened in the past as a result of the US government" isn't really all that time consuming.

And trying those who committed horrible crimes of the past is part of justice. Sure, the perpetrators might be dead by now, but it is our obligation to bring their names to justice and as a result, help give closure to the families affected.[/size][/QUOTE]True, issuing such a statement probably would take little time, but trying dead people still doesn?t really change anything. Though it probably does help the families find closure like you mentioned. [quote name='Aaryanna][COLOR=DarkRed]If nothing else, putting that apology on a federal level will be an indication that racism on a large scale isn?t going to be tolerated anymore. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]Now that I can understand, since even with slavery being abolished discrimination still has been an issue, one that still rears it?s ugly head. So continuing to adopt a stance that it?s not going to be tolerated is only a good thing as I see it. [QUOTE=Aaryanna_Mom]On some level it disgusts me that people think there is no need to apologize as if the fact that it happened so long ago makes it unnecessary to apologize. [/QUOTE]As in thinking they never need to apologize? That I do agree with especially if those responsible are still around. I still don?t completely understand the need to apologize for something that happened so long ago. [QUOTE=vegeta rocker]As long as it doesn't turn out to be like that one guy who was trying to make it so that if you could trace yourself back to slave lineage than you would get a monthly check.[/QUOTE]Now that I definitely agree with, since at that point you are in my opinion moving from getting an apology to taking advantage of people who had nothing to do with what happened to people who have been dead for over a century. That kind of thinking in my mind is a bit sick and sad. [QUOTE=John']If our administration apologizes on the part of the government, it's a little bit like one business apologizing for the wrongdoings of the business that used to inhabit their building.[/quote]Ah! Thank you. That really puts it into prospective for me. It was making no sense and now I know why. The idea that another generation has to apologize for what someone else did and to be disgusted with them because they didn?t, just doesn?t fit.

The article I was reading focused more on what happened instead of keeping in mind that the current legislation had nothing to do with what happened. I still don?t have a problem with them issuing the apology, even if I wonder about it actually being needed.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']You see this is what I don?t understand, why do they owe it to them as you speak when you?ve admitted that the current administration had nothing to do with what happened.[/quote]
[size=1]They speak for the government as an entity, as I said. They apologize that these atrocities were perpetrated in the past by the entity they now represent. Here's an example:

A company's administrators decide to put out a defective product for personal gain. They profit immensely, but later the public finds out the product is defective and it's harming people. The CEO and offending administration resign, and new leadership takes their place. The new CEO [i]should apologize to its costumers for the damage caused[/i]. That specific CEO is not responsible, but he represents the company as a whole. Not apologizing makes the company look bad for not admitting it was wrong.

[QUOTE]But on the same line of reasoning, the government as an entity is responsible for abolishing slavery, I am not familiar with the Trail of Tears. I?m sure it?s important, I just do not remember it from my history classes as it?s been to long since I?ve had one. I?m not trying to be difficult here, but I really do not see how it?s disgusting. Should we turn around and praise the government for abolishing slavery as well?[/QUOTE]
Trail of Tears was when President Jackson told the Native Americans to migrate west, and made them go by force. It was a bloody and violent march across hundreds of miles on foot, and many died. A bit off topic...

We do praise the government for abolishing slavery. It's why everyone loves Lincoln, lol. But at the same time, that praise was somewhat drowned out by the next hundred years of second-class citizenship and general exploitation, so pardon folks for not crying out a Hallelujah chorus to the government.

[QUOTE]True, issuing such a statement probably would take little time, but trying dead people still doesn?t really change anything. Though it probably does help the families find closure like you mentioned.[/QUOTE]
Well, Saddam Hussein is still on trial for his war crimes so that we can write down in the history books all the stuff he did to people. He was hanged a while ago, but his name is still being tried so that he goes down in history as what he was and not hearsay. Likewise, I think the situation applies to those who hurt and killed black people -- the names of the perpetrators will be painted red for all to see, and the families will finally feel avenged, if you will.

[quote name='John']Well see, that's where you've gotta start being careful about this stuff. Because when you take that line of thinking you're in severe danger of thinking of the government no longer as an ever-changing collective of individuals but as a singular, enduring entity, which it isn't.[/quote]
Rest assured, I see the government as a cycle of individuals, which is why I did distinguish between the current administration and the supporters of slavery. But if you'll see my aforementioned CEO analogy, maybe my point will come across clearer? It's a tough sentiment to communicate.

In general, I'm not calling for my 40 acres and a mule like some black people are, but a "Alright, the government did mess up back then" would suffice.[/size]

[Nerdsy]

[color=deeppink]I understand your point, Retribution, but that analagy is a little off. It doesn't really apply to this situation.

I mean, it's not some new CEO apologizing for a corrupt CEO that he or she [i]just[/i] replaced. It's more like a CEO apologizing for a corrupt CEO from a hundred and fifty years ago.

I don't think that the government is obligated to apologize for the actions of people who aren't alive anymore against people who are also not alive anymore.

That being said, I think they should. It's a good will gesture.[/color]

[Sandy]

Life forbid that the US government (or [I]any[/I] government for that matter) grapples to real, current problems!

After all these "pre-emptive" wars as well as persecution of sexual minorities and women who want abortion, this one's at least a [I]positive[/I] distraction, but still... Aren't there more pressing issues to be dealt with? Like increasing unemployment, widening income gap or climate change?

Of course the ones who were enslaved should've received an apology ([I]at least[/I]), but like many people mentioned in this thread already, isn't it a bit too late now? Everybody involved are practically dead now.

[I]Racism[/I], that's another issue, but a simple apology won't do a squat about it.

[James]

[font=arial]I think an apology is definitely appropriate. It is not a question of apologizing for something you didn't do - I almost think that's beside the point.

It's a question of the "United States" officially acknowledging what it did in the past and apologizing for that. Having an apology recorded on the books is both appropriate and a good will gesture. It's also about being the bigger man I think - it's about making a real attempt to move on in a very literal way.

The whole issue of payments and stuff is another question entirely; I am not an American so I don't have much of an opinion on that subject. But I do think that a formal apology is wholly appropriate. Saying "we won't apologize for our ancestors" is just kind of unnecessary - as I said, it's not so much about that, it's more about righting a historical wrong in some sense (and providing some kind of finality to the whole issue, on an official level).[/font]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]Slavery, ironically has been a very hot topic among certain members of my family on my fathers side of the family. Because unfortunately, I have ancestors that did own slaves in the south and current relatives who are just as racist and prejudice as they were back then. Most of them I pretty much avoid since I can't stand how they will bash black people given a chance. It's just sickening, to the point that I haven't spoken to some of them in years and years.

I can even trace some of them back as belonging to the KKK, something else that disgusts me as well. >_<

Though I was not personally responsible, nor were my current relatives, I do think an apology is in order. To show that we can apologize for past wrongs. What I don't agree with is the idea that people should get compensated for it since I feel it's unfair to be required to pay for someone else's mistakes. That kind of thinking would just open up Pandora's box and create all sorts of issues. At least for things that are as old as the civil war was.

After all I can't help that I have ancestors who did horrible things to other people so it makes sense that apologizing is a good thing along with continuing to work on making things more equal and fair for everyone. And that expecting the people to pay for mistakes that old is not a good idea because it's not our mistake in that respect. [/COLOR]

[Nerdsy]

[QUOTE=SunfallE][COLOR=RoyalBlue]Slavery, ironically has been a very hot topic among certain members of my family on my fathers side of the family. Because unfortunately, I have ancestors that did own slaves in the south and current relatives who are just as racist and prejudice as they were back then. Most of them I pretty much avoid since I can't stand how they will bash black people given a chance. It's just sickening, to the point that I haven't spoken to some of them in years and years.

I can even trace some of them back as belonging to the KKK, something else that disgusts me as well. >_< [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]I [i]live[/i] with family members like that. Perhaps not racist to the point of advocating slavery, but...

Well, my uncle, who lives right next door and mooches off of us so much he might as well live here, he refers to Martin Luther King Jr. Days as "James Earl Ray" day.[/color]

[Retribution]

[size=1]Actual payment is totally unnecessary, as I think affirmative action (whether you like it or not) is currently serving that purpose, and was founded for that exact same reason.

And I'm not really sure it's fair to say the government is being the "bigger man" by apologizing. I think it is indeed a goodwill gesture, but isn't it a bit patronizing to consider those minorities wronged in the past by the government complainers (not word I was looking for)?

I never understood the "There are more pressing matters" argument, either. It really isn't an involving process to issue a formal apology, and unless everyone's minds are solely focused on getting an apology, I hardly see the problem with wanting one.[/size]

[James]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]
And I'm not really sure it's fair to say the government is being the "bigger man" by apologizing. I think it is indeed a goodwill gesture, but isn't it a bit patronizing to consider those minorities wronged in the past by the government complainers (not word I was looking for)?
[/size][/QUOTE]

[font=arial]Maybe I mis-worded that.

What I meant was, the Government is "being the bigger man" as compared to those who feel that no apology is necessary and that there is no sense of inequality (those two are often mutually exclusive, too).

I don't mean that those who complain about slavery are to be trivialized. [/font]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1] In general, I'm not calling for my 40 acres and a mule like some black people are, but a "Alright, the government did mess up back then" would suffice.[/size][/QUOTE]I agree completely, it's not about being compensated when it happened so long ago, but to say the government made a mistake is definitely appropriate in my opinion. [QUOTE=Retribution][size=1']I never understood the "There are more pressing matters" argument, either. It really isn't an involving process to issue a formal apology, and unless everyone's minds are solely focused on getting an apology, I hardly see the problem with wanting one.[/size][/quote]Again I agree, since when should more pressing matters take precedent? You can use that argument to put off just about anything. And something like this has been 'put off' far too long due to lingering resentment and racism. It won't end it, but I do think it makes a good statement in formally admitting that our government back then was wrong to have done what they did.

[Farto the Magic]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][COLOR=DarkGreen]Dudes, if we really think about it, we've all been wronged by someone, historically. Its called life, and it moves on. It forgets things that lose relevance. The people whose ancestors were slaves should thank their lucky stars that they aren't anymore, and don't live in Africa, since it seems to be hell on earth at the moment. My family is Dutch/Friesian, and we've been screwed over too. First the Romans, then the Holy Roman Empire, then the Spanish. I hold no ill-will towards the descendants of the people involved. If I met anyone, and knew that their family had screwed over mine, my reaction would be the same as any other...except I would stab them.

No...I couldn't stab anyone.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[eleanor]

[color=dimgray] Yeah, everyone's been screwed over, but this is US history we're talking about. And one of the biggest crimes against humanity in US history is slavery. It has impacted us morally, economically, politically, literature-wise, and probably anything else you can think of that's part of history.

I mean, you could argue against that with other atrocities like the Indian removals and the Japanese encampments and etc., but none of them come close to the scale slavery impacted the US.

And I agree with Retribution on why the "there are more pressing matters" argument is sort of moot. It's not like Capitol Hill is going to shut down completely to write the apology.[/color]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Farto the Magic][FONT=Trebuchet MS][COLOR=DarkGreen]Dudes, if we really think about it, we've all been wronged by someone, historically. Its called life, and it moves on. It forgets things that lose relevance. The people whose ancestors were slaves should thank their lucky stars that they aren't anymore, and don't live in Africa, since it seems to be hell on earth at the moment. My family is Dutch/Friesian, and we've been screwed over too. First the Romans, then the Holy Roman Empire, then the Spanish. I hold no ill-will towards the descendants of the people involved. If I met anyone, and knew that their family had screwed over mine, my reaction would be the same as any other...except I would stab them.

No...I couldn't stab anyone.[/COLOR][/FONT][/QUOTE]
[size=1]But that's the thing... the wrongs of slavery have persisted to be relevant to this day. Slavery has been directly responsible for the condition of black community since 1863. I hold no ill will towards modern whites, since they have no control over their father's actions, but I do think a "Sorry" from the government is appropriate.

I'm going to make the dubious claim that the Dutch weren't as screwed over as the Africans brought over and enslaved for 300+ years.

And I think you go a bit too far in being [i]thankful[/i] for slavery. I'm thankful for not being an African at this point, and I have infinite respect for my ancestors who bore the horrors of slavery, but to say "You're lucky slavery happened, better than being in Africa" is overstating it.[/size]

[James P. Galvatron]

I myself hate it when this topic comes up I'm black myself I think they should just apologize and live and let live cause soon your gonna have people asking for reparations again and all that.

Bothering families who have nothing to do with what their ancestors did in the past its a waste of time truly I get bored of it and wonder when it will ever end there is nothing that can be said or done to alter the past its set and stone and it will stay that way.

[Farto the Magic]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]But that's the thing... the wrongs of slavery have persisted to be relevant to this day. Slavery has been directly responsible for the condition of black community since 1863. I hold no ill will towards modern whites, since they have no control over their father's actions, but I do think a "Sorry" from the government is appropriate.

I'm going to make the dubious claim that the Dutch weren't as screwed over as the Africans brought over and enslaved for 300+ years.

And I think you go a bit too far in being [i]thankful[/i] for slavery. I'm thankful for not being an African at this point, and I have infinite respect for my ancestors who bore the horrors of slavery, but to say "You're lucky slavery happened, better than being in Africa" is overstating it.[/size][/QUOTE]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS][COLOR=DarkGreen]Touche, dude. I guess my point is that people should learn to forget what is in the past, because it is in fact the past. The government probably should apologize for slavery, but it wasn't a government sanctioned thing (or was it?). To my knowledge, it was just a controversy back then, much like abortion is a controversy now. Not to say that the two were in the same boat, atrocity-wise, but you get my drift.

I guess I understand that slavery is a horrible thing, and that the black community has a right to be pissed. But I also see (from my personal view) that my ancestors weren't even in this country when that was going down, and I shouldn't be in trouble for something that no one in my family has ever put forth on anyone. I'm kind of sick of people holding it over my head, like a black halo, when many white people's families weren't even in this country yet.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[BlueMoon]

[QUOTE]I mean, you could argue against that with other atrocities like the Indian removals and the Japanese encampments and etc., but none of them come close to the scale slavery impacted the US.[/QUOTE]

I would argue this point, actually. I don't think it's right to say that the crimes against the American Indian population "didn't come close." I would argue that it was equally tragic. Just read up on any given tribe and look at their current status. It's truly disgusting.

The problem is that US history really is full of horrible acts, like any nation. And when it comes down to it, that's what the civil rights movements were about. Not just the movement for equal rights for blacks but during this time there were many groups, including the American Indians, taking up the fight.

Okay, sorry, had to get that out. It seems to come up in a lot of slavery debates and it annoys me. The point is, I think we should be apologizing to at least several groups. African-Americans are one of them, for sure. A formal apology would be great but I would hope that, along with it, we'll see people doing more than just saying "Well, that's done now." But that's another rant for another time.

And to answer the question in the title of the thread, I think it's something that never really went away, personally. So I suppose now is as good a time as any.

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

I think the fact that all governments are constantly changing entities over time shouldn't excuse the fact that a federal apology is deserved, if not warranted in this situation. I understand the point that others have made that while obviously none of the people involved on either side are alive, the government is a successor to the governments that allowed this to occur, even condoned it.

This isn't going to bring back anyone, and it's not going to change the face of the United States overnight, all it is is a government accepting their predecessors made a terrible mistake and apologising for it.[/SIZE]