The shootings at V. Tech.

[Guest Osiris]

who would do such a thing seriously, that dude had some mental prblems plus he couldnt control himself because of everyone picking on him.

[Guest Kyo_Lover2009]

What is with all the shootings in the world? I mean come on we dont need thid. Every person that gets killed in some school related gun fight or what not there is always a parent or some one who was close to that person in that shooting morning for their lost loved one. The money to help the families out is money we dont have. That money could be going to the poor.

[desertphoenix]

[QUOTE=Raiyuu]
Of course, it's very easy to look back after the event and say 'there were so many signs, why did no one notice?'.[/QUOTE]

This line sticks out, and not just because it's spaced-out.

I'm don't think the case was nobody noticed, but what should be done with the guy? But i guess that was your point all along.

As for what my English teacher said everyone was scared of him. He had a creative writing class and in what he wrote, no one wanted to peer edit it because of all the macabre images. My teacher said he hid behind a mask of a hat and sunglasses that his teacher had a problem with. Yeah, he might have seemed to be the kind of guy that would do something crazy. But again, what is the right thing to do?

I personally have no idea what the guy was like, the kind of life he lived, or his mental state. All i can do is assume how others treated him. He just seemed isolated. I guess that's autism, but i don't that's all to blame

[vegeta rocker]

Here we are, again.

It took a day for someone to blame a movie for this, or to at least compare it.

The movie OldBoy won the Grand Prix award at the 2004 Cannes Film Festival and is now being cited as possible inspiration for Cho's actions.

I was thinking about it and i was just wondering about our reaction to violence these days.

For example, I work in a school and in my office area i wanted to put up a calender.
I have two calenders, one is the Ganmestop special edition calender with guns, violence and some creepy stuff.

The other is the DOA beach volleyball calender.

Which one is made to be put in the back? The girls as I'm sure you have guessed.

Just made me wonder, how does America react to violence?

I don't think a movie can directly influence anything because in my opinion, if you are so easily influenced by media than whats to say something more realistic like the news won't have the same exact effect?

And you know what? Virginia Tech isn't the deadliest school incident. It is the deadliest school [I]shooting[/I].

The deadliest school massacre occurred in 1927, and the weapon was dynamite.

[URL=http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0407/3558.html]Article about deadliest massacre[/URL]

That was before all the gun control issues and the blaming media bit, there will always be violence and nothing will change that.

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=vegeta rocker]
That was before all the gun control issues and the blaming media bit, there will always be violence and nothing will change that.[/QUOTE]

I've restricted myself from commenting to this thread so far, because I'm so annoyed by the public reaction to this incident (not here, but in general).

Now I just have to say that even though nothing can make violence go away for good, shouldn't we as humans do whatever we can to decrease it's amount? With just a change in our attitude, countless of lives could be spared every day.

If only we'd drive a little slower, if only we'd count to ten before losing our temper, if only we'd show our concern about those who we see are suffering, if only we would be ready to give up some of our luxury for common good...

Every sane person knows that this incident wasn't caused by a movie or a videogame, it was caused by a lonely young man with mental health issues who nobody cared for.

[spoiler]...And the fact that he had an easy access to a whole arsenal of guns, but I don't really want to go into that.[/spoiler]

[vegeta rocker]

I am not saying we should sit around and do nothing at all, i was referring to blaming the media for it.

There will always be violence until someone just STOPS. If you fight for peace you are just fooling yourself. You can fight for control or safety but never for peace.

As for him having easy access to guns i honestly don't see why he wouldn't. He was an adult with a clean record with the police.

Like Sandy said, if we all did our part. The girls who didn't press charges when he stalked them, the parents who didn't try harder to get their son help. It goes every which way, someone didn't stop and say "we need to get this kid help".

The few that did weren't heeded, like the instructor who wrote a letter requesting he be removed from her class because other students were afraid to attend.

We care too much about ourselves to think about the impact our actions can have on everyone else.

Why is it a single gunman wasn't overpowered by a school hall full of people? Why did one professor sacrifice himself to save his students?

That man was a Holocaust survivor, he had seen true evil and had overcome it.

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][quote name='Sandy]Every sane person knows that this incident wasn't caused by a movie or a videogame,[B] it was caused by a lonely young man with mental health issues who nobody cared for[/B'].[/quote]Wrong, he may have had mental health issues, but don't make the mistake of assuming no one cared. As it states in this article here: [URL=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18148802/]Article[/URL] One of his teachers tried to get him to go to counseling as you can see from this part of the article:
[INDENT][SIZE=1]A Virginia Tech professor told NBC News that Cho?s creative writing was so disturbing that she referred him to the school?s counseling service, but he would not go. The professor, Lucinda Roy, the English Department?s director of creative writing, would not comment at length on Cho?s writings, saying only that in general they ?seemed very angry.?

?I kept saying, ?Please go to counseling; I will take you to counseling,? because he was so depressed,? Roy said. But ?I was told [by counselors] that you can?t force anybody to go over ... so their hands were tied, too.?[/SIZE][/INDENT]Don't make the mistake of assuming no one gave a damn. That's no different than the baseless accusation that it was caused by video games or violent movies.

In the end, even if you do try, you can't force someone to get help, and as disturbed as he was, he still choose to get the gun and pull the trigger. No one forced him to do what he did. [/COLOR]

[desertphoenix]

[QUOTE=vegeta rocker]
As for him having easy access to guns i honestly don't see why he wouldn't. He was an adult with a clean record with the police.
[/QUOTE]
I don't know, but wasn't his only offense on his record was carrying a weapon or gun on a college campus?...wtf if that was the case, why sell him a gun?

[QUOTE=vegeta rocker]
We care too much about ourselves to think about the impact our actions can have on everyone else.
[/QUOTE]
This is really a fact of life that should be considered everyday. This can be the root to a lot of problems in society. Heck, I guess we can even blame this for global warming.

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=indifference][COLOR=DarkRed]Wrong, he may have had mental health issues, but don't make the mistake of assuming no one cared. As it states in this article here: [URL=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18148802/]Article[/URL] One of his teachers tried to get him to go to counseling as you can see from this part of the article:
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Sorry, Crystia, my wording was off. I also want to stress that I'm in no way an expert of the situation, I just go by what I've gathered from the news.

Of course there were concerned people around him, but I've gotten the impression that everybody was more afraid of him than really [I]caring[/I] for him. Recent events show that the fear wasn't without basis, but it makes one wonder where did his seclusion from the rest of the society begin. In his early childhood? In school? In puberty? When did he cross the point of no return?

It's easy to understand his withdrawal if he indeed had autistic symptoms, but all the "hate-mail" he sent to NBC point towards him being rejected by everybody.

Of course, these musings are pretty much meaningless now, as they won't bring anybody from the 33 dead people back to life.

But I assure you guys, these school shootings won't stop until something really changes in the legislation over there. There sure as hell aren't any school shootings on this side of the Atlantic, why do you think that is...?

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][quote name='Sandy']There sure as hell aren't any school shootings on this side of the Atlantic, why do you think that is...?[/quote]Sorry Sandy, but wrong again. They may happen more in the US but they do happen in other countries.

[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avivim_school_bus_massacre]Israel[/URL]
[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27alot_massacre]Israel[/URL]
[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_Massacre]Canada[/URL]
[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordia_University_massacre]Canada[/URL]
[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre]United Kingdom[/URL]
[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanaa_massacre]Yemen[/URL]
[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._R._Myers_High_School_shooting]Canada[/URL]
[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_massacre]Germany[/URL]
[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting]Australia[/URL]
[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson_College_shooting]Canada[/URL]
[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beirut_Arab_University_shooting]Lebanon[/URL]

As for how he ended up so messed up. One has to wonder what chain of events eventually lead to him taking such drastic action. [/COLOR]

[Sandy]

[quote name='indifference][COLOR=DarkRed']Sorry Sandy, but wrong again.[/COLOR][/quote]

Heh, I knew I should've checked it before making the claim, but thanks for pointing those out, Crystia! ;D I just based the claim to my memory, since the only mass-murdering incident that happened in a school in Europe that I could remember was Beslan's terror attack (i.e. not a shooting).

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][quote name='Sandy']Heh, I knew I should've checked it before making the claim, but thanks for pointing those out, Crystia! ;D I just based the claim to my memory, since the only mass-murdering incident that happened in a school in Europe that I could remember was Beslan's terror attack (i.e. not a shooting).[/quote] :p Well considering that it seems like most of them happen here, it's easy to think they only happen in the US. Especially when you look at the article where I got the information from and see that over 75% of the shootings listed did happen here. I find that pretty sad actually. [/COLOR][URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_massacre]Wikipedia[/URL]

[vegeta rocker]

He didn't have any record of bringing a weapon on campus, like i said, he had a clean [I]police[/I] record.

He was supposed to be receiving out patient treatment but no one is sure he was.

He had th three types of ID needed and he paid for it legitimately.

[Rachmaninoff]

[QUOTE=vegeta rocker]He didn't have any record of bringing a weapon on campus, like i said, he had a clean [I]police[/I] record.

He was supposed to be receiving out patient treatment but no one is sure he was.

He had th three types of ID needed and he paid for it legitimately.[/QUOTE]That just makes it even harder, since where do you draw the line when it comes to attempting to prevent things like this? If a person has a clean record, how would those who sell the guns have any way of knowing? Where do you draw the line when it comes to checking someone out before they are allowed to purchase one? Though I often wonder why we even need the 'right to bear arms' but that's another discussion altogether.

But the saddest part is that he was at one point taken to a mental health facility back in 2005 and the authorities say they received no more complaints about Cho before the shootings. So how could they have known that he was far from well and was close to snapping like he did?

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Sandy']There sure as hell aren't any school shootings on this side of the Atlantic, why do you think that is...?[/quote]

[color=crimson]A shot in the dark here but maybe it's because you don't do research before making pro-'that side of the Atlantic' statements? You must be quite blissful.

Fifty states with individual gun laws and a partisan, infighting system of passing legislation in each state and on a national level does not embrace progress. A magical wand cannot be waved as this issue on gun ownership within the United States has literally been discussed since the founding of the nation. It will not be solved anytime soon.[/color]

[Sandy]

[quote name='DeathKnight][color=crimson']A shot in the dark here but maybe it's because you don't do research before making pro-'that side of the Atlantic' statements? You must be quite blissful.[/color][/quote]

I already admitted my mistake, there's no need for you to come and rub it in.

The truth remains, as Crystia said, that shootings are many times more common on "that side of the Atlantic", and many people there aren't willing to do anything about it. The solution that "everybody would carry a gun" is ramblings of a madman, and would only lead to more fear, vigilantism and paranoia - not to mention the chaos that ensues when someone starts shooting and everybody shoots back "for their defense".

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Sandy']I already admitted my mistake, there's no need for you to come and rub it in.[/quote]

[color=crimson]I'm content with my words. You may consider it want over need.[/color]

[quote name='Sandy']The truth remains, as Crystia said, that shootings are many times more common on "that side of the Atlantic", and many people there aren't willing to do anything about it. The solution that "everybody would carry a gun" is ramblings of a madman, and would only lead to more fear, vigilantism and paranoia - not to mention the chaos that ensues when someone starts shooting and everybody shoots back "for their defense".[/quote]

[color=crimson]"The truth remains" [b]to you[/b] "that..." is a more appropriate wording within the context of Democratic action. This is especially true in countries with a population fifty seven times greater than Finland and with an incalculably higher level of diversity both of race and political standings.

To really spur on a movement there, generally, needs to be a face for the issue(s) involved. An example of this is generally a person, an event or a series of events. Martin Luther King Jr. Pearl Harbor. Susan B. Anthony. Matthew Shepard. 9/11. Katrina. The Second War in Iraq. You can add VT behind Columbine and other acts of extreme gun violence for gun control advocates.

Hopefully we can say that, with time and, unfortunately, more bloodshed, legislation will be passed favorable to gun control. Until then the system of traumatic event>reaction>traumatic event>reaction will carry on.[/color]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Sandy']The truth remains, as Crystia said, that shootings are many times more common on "that side of the Atlantic", and many people there aren't willing to do anything about it. The solution that "everybody would carry a gun" is ramblings of a madman, and would only lead to more fear, vigilantism and paranoia - not to mention the chaos that ensues when someone starts shooting and everybody shoots back "for their defense".[/quote]No, many of us are not unwilling to do anything, it's more of a [I]we're not in a position to actually be [B]able[/B] to do something[/I]. There's a big difference you know. It's not like we can simply insist that legislation that would require more gun control be passed. [QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]To really spur on a movement there, generally, needs to be a face for the issue(s) involved. An example of this is generally a person, an event or a series of events. Martin Luther King Jr. Pearl Harbor. Susan B. Anthony. Matthew Shepard. 9/11. Katrina. The Second War in Iraq. You can add VT behind Columbine and other acts of extreme gun violence for gun control advocates.

Hopefully we can say that, with time and, unfortunately, more bloodshed, legislation will be passed favorable to gun control. Until then the system of traumatic event>reaction>traumatic event>reaction will carry on.[/color][/QUOTE]DeathKnight is correct, it's unfortunate, but it often requires more tragedy before something is done. For example, like a number of severe head on accidents on the freeway here in Salt Lake City Utah. It took nearly fifty lethal crashes before the state would finally do something about the need for a cement divider between north and south bound traffic to prevent head on collisions at freeway speeds.

Also another thing to consider Sandy, many of us don't wait for the government to make things better. We do so by refusing to buy guns for defense. I and quite a few of my friends refuse to add to the problem by arming ourselves. You'd be surprised at how many Americans do not own or have any gun in their home. Not all of us think that the solution to the violence is to have a gun or some type of weapon.

[Sandy]

But I wasn't talking about you, Rach, or your friends. I'm very aware that there are a lot of anti-gun people in the US. I'm just worried about the people who, despite what happens, stick with their right to own a gun (NRA and such). I've seen "Bowling for Columbine", and as subjective as it is, it does tell the story from both sides.

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Sandy']But I wasn't talking about you, Rach, or your friends. I'm very aware that there are a lot of anti-gun people in the US. I'm just worried about the people who, despite what happens, stick with their right to own a gun (NRA and such). I've seen "Bowling for Columbine", and as subjective as it is, it does tell the story from both sides.[/quote]I know, It's just all to often people get off on a tangent about how American's are gun loving violence freaks when it's not true. I know that's not what you meant though. ;)

As for the NRA...

[CENTER][IMG]http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/4650/handelsmansk8.gif[/IMG] [/CENTER]

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=indifference][COLOR=DarkRed]Wrong, he may have had mental health issues, but don't make the mistake of assuming no one cared. As it states in this article here: [URL=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18148802/]Article[/URL] One of his teachers tried to get him to go to counseling as you can see from this part of the article:
[INDENT][SIZE=1]A Virginia Tech professor told NBC News that Cho?s creative writing was so disturbing that she referred him to the school?s counseling service, but he would not go. The professor, Lucinda Roy, the English Department?s director of creative writing, would not comment at length on Cho?s writings, saying only that in general they ?seemed very angry.?

?I kept saying, ?Please go to counseling; I will take you to counseling,? because he was so depressed,? Roy said. But ?I was told [by counselors] that you can?t force anybody to go over ... so their hands were tied, too.?[/SIZE][/INDENT]Don't make the mistake of assuming no one gave a damn. That's no different than the baseless accusation that it was caused by video games or violent movies.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=dimgray] There is a huge difference between having friends and having a professor refer you to the school's counseling service.

Who knows what could have happened if Cho had even one student friend?[/color]

[vegeta rocker]

I don't even know if him having a friend would have helped, he wanted to make a statement and he did.

I can't know for sure obviously, but you have to wonder if he even tried. Seemed like he was too busy hating people to try to make friends.

He took pictures of them with his camera phone and stuff but i don't think he honestly wanted a friend. They finally published an article with his family speaking. They say he was quiet and reserved even in Korea when he was young.

He never mixed with the children, he was different. They thought him coming to America would help him and make him more open to people.

[Rachmaninoff]

[QUOTE=Lunox][color=dimgray] There is a huge difference between having friends and having a professor refer you to the school's counseling service.

Who knows what could have happened if Cho had even one student friend?[/color][/QUOTE]That's true, but wasn't that statement addressing the one before it saying no one gave a damn about his mental health? Even if it was a professor and not a friend, it still proves that someone did at least try to get him the help he needed. That someone did actually care.

Also, who says he didn't have any friends? I'd very much like to see what article says that. For all we know he may have had a few friends or people who tried to be his friend.

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=Rachmaninoff]That's true, but wasn't that statement addressing the one before it saying no one gave a damn about his mental health? Even if it was a professor and not a friend, it still proves that someone did at least try to get him the help he needed. That someone did actually care.

Also, who says he didn't have any friends? I'd very much like to see what article says that. For all we know he may have had a few friends or people who tried to be his friend.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Sandy']Every sane person knows that this incident wasn't caused by a movie or a videogame, it was caused by a lonely young man with mental health issues who nobody cared for.[/quote]

[color=dimgray] It depends on how you read it. The word 'for' could be referring to mental health issues or a young man with mental health issues. OR I am grammatically lame and can't tell which one to pick. P:

And I assumed that he had no friends. I know assumptions make an *** out of U and ME, but can you find any article that says he did have any friends? From what I heard from interviews of his roommates and people who knew him, he was pretty much a loner and didn't have any friends.

Of course, nothing is certain. If people did try to make friends with him and it was to no avail, I would guess that Cho had fallen too deeply into this own problems or was too insecure to deal with it.
[/color]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][QUOTE=Lunox][color=dimgray] It depends on how you read it. The word 'for' could be referring to mental health issues or a young man with mental health issues. OR I am grammatically lame and can't tell which one to pick. P:

And I assumed that he had no friends. I know assumptions make an *** out of U and ME, but can you find any article that says he did have any friends? From what I heard from interviews of his roommates and people who knew him, he was pretty much a loner and didn't have any friends.

Of course, nothing is certain. If people did try to make friends with him and it was to no avail, I would guess that Cho had fallen too deeply into this own problems or was too insecure to deal with it.
[/color][/QUOTE]I was taking it to mean that no one cared about him at all. And there's no denying that regular friends would mean more than a professor. The whole thing is sad since even if he was a loner, there's no telling how many people tried to be friendly and gave up. If at all. I mean it's fairly obvious that he was isolated at the time it happened. But in the years before that? Those reports of him being a loner don't mean he was like that his whole life.

And yeah, nothing is certain, other than there's no changing the fact that he killed so many people. Or that he was definitely messed up. [/COLOR]