Anime What's an anime fan?

[Volume 11]

I understand both sides of this debate.

I have been collecting anime since 1990. I was 10 years old and living in NY where I had numerous Asian friends who exposed me to shows like Dragonball and Gundam. That being said, it was still difficult to get your hands on quality anime with readable subs for years, even in NYC where I had more access than most people did.

So I understand how it can be somwehat daunting when 14 years olds in Naruto headbands say the love anime, but have a knowledge pool that consists of only Naruto and FMA. However, it isnt the lack of knowledge that offends me, but rather the lack of curiosity most of these fans have. In a world where its incredibly easy to get anime (either regular releases at Best Buy or bootleg imports on Ebay) there is no excuse for not having the curiosity to SEEK OUT other shows like my friends and I did in a time when anime wasn't as easily accesible.

On the other hand I have experienced elitism more than once from many different people. A recent example was when I was in B&N picking up some issues of the Bleach manga. Some kid was standing there watching me and he rolled his eyes as I started carousing the Bleach section. To me, this is funny because I have been watching anime longer than this kid has been alive and when I looked at what he was reading and saw it was Urusaka's Monster I chuckled. I own every US manga volume of the series and have been a long time fan. Plus, I started watching fan-subbed Bleach before this kid even knew it existed and long before it started airing on AS. But because I was looking at Bleach manga some punk *** kid assumed I was new to the series, thus being new to anime...

My point is that we should all like we what we like and leave it at that. Their are always going to be people who know more about anime and judge you on your knowledge, and their will always be 14 year olds who watch one anime they become obsessed with and never seek out another series unless its spoon fed to them.

At this point in my life I could care less if people think I fall into either category. I like good stories and manga and anime provide me with that, and in the end, thats all that matters.

[i.luv.kiba]

i agree w/ you defintiton because if you like something then you're a fan of it. if you like the Eagles football team (WOOT) then you are an Eagles fan. so shouldn't that definition apply to anime as well. Since you don't like Akira (whoever that is) then that just means you aren't an Akira fan.

~the Akatsuki are Watching~
*Ustez*

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Fasteriskhead]As someone who finds taking classes fun, I object. ;) [/QUOTE] I enjoy classes as well. Believe me. ;)[QUOTE=Fasteriskhead'] I certainly don't have any problem with watching something for sheer pleasure (I'm a Negima fan, so that's pretty much a non-starter), but for me mere diversion gets old after awhile. Think of my cooking comparison from the previous post: some people are perfectly happy with three-step recipes that take ten minutes to prepare, but the wackos are going to want to fix hugely complex feasts that take days. Both presumably satisfy the goals they have set for themselves. Criticism seems beside the point.[/quote]Exactly what I was trying to say only expressed more clearly. People shouldn't feel like they can't just enjoy a few shows for the fun of it. Those ten minute recipes if you will. I like to save my complex feasts for those things I truly enjoy. And who knows? Maybe someday anime will fall into that category as well.[QUOTE=2007DigitalBoy][COLOR=DarkOrange]Both of ye long-named dudes, I am in agreement with both of you. [B]Rach [/B] (do you mind if I call you that?), I can see what you mean by that, and I can see how it would be imposing. I think what this comes down to, though, is the difference betwen you and me. Your perfectly fine being a lone fan of something -- I'm not. As a person whos hobbies make up most of my life, it is important to me what others think, and I am filed with joy when they think what I think.

[B]Fasterisk[/B], I just overall agree with your post.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]Not at all, Rach is just fine, or my real name Darren, though since someone has that user name here it might be confusing. lol

I do want to clarify one thing though. I actually am not a lone fan. I do have friends who share the same level of interest in classical music that I do, just as I have the friends like Crystia/indifference who do not and yet it has never mattered. If anything having friends with totally different hobbies is a good thing. After all, if she had never [strike]tied me to a chair and forced me to watch...[/strike] *cough* I mean never got me to watch Fruits Basket last year I would still be wandering though life without watching any anime at all and would have never ended up here. ;)[quote name='Volume 11'] there is no excuse for not having the curiosity to SEEK OUT other shows like my friends and I did in a time when anime wasn't as easily accesible.[/quote]Very well then, I say that there is no excuse for not having the curiosity to SEEK OUT other [insert hobby here] either. So I suggest you and everyone else get moving! Or you can stop and think about how silly that sounds to think there is no excuse for not wanting more. lol

[Volume 11]

Originally Posted by Volume 11
there is no excuse for not having the curiosity to SEEK OUT other shows like my friends and I did in a time when anime wasn't as easily accesible.

Originally posted by Rachmaninoff
Very well then, I say that there is no excuse for not having the curiosity to SEEK OUT other [insert hobby here] either. So I suggest you and everyone else get moving! Or you can stop and think about how silly that sounds to think there is no excuse for not wanting more. lol
Yesterday 12:56 PM


You are muddling your logic. The argument isnt about RANDOM people seeking out more of (insert hobby here). The argument is about people who claim to love anime seeking out more of the genre and branching out past Naruto.

Im not sure if it was you or not, but to the poster who stated that he loves classical music and used that as an analogy to this argument, you are displaying the same faulty logic as above. That argument would apply if we were on a classical music board or someone walking down the street who said they loved classical music but had little knowledge of the genre tried to debate with you.

You guys do remember we are on an anime board discussing people who claim to love anime? Not random people seeking out more information or media regarding random subjects.

Im not trying to flame or be offensive, but that whole line of thought is illogical. I dont expect people who arent into something Im interested in to go seek out more information on the subject. But when someone claims to love something and does not do some research...its a little annoying no matter how down to Earth you may be about your hobby.

Plus, I also said people should like what they like regardless of what anyone thinks. Please don't take my posts out of context and make it seem like Im being an elitist when the whole point of my post was to show the exact opposite.

[Fasteriskhead]

[quote name='Volume 11']Im not trying to flame or be offensive, but that whole line of thought is illogical.[/quote]1. If someone watches and enjoys some (i.e. > 0) amount of anime, then they are an anime fan. (definition)
2. X is a person who has seen 500+ animes and enjoyed them. (premise)
3. Y is a person who has seen only one anime and enjoyed it. (premise)
4. Therefore X must be an anime fan. (by 1 and 2)
5. Therefore Y must be an anime fan. (by 1 and 3)

So far as I can tell, although the definition is contestable, the argument is formally valid. You may be working from a different meaning of "illogical."

[quote name='Volume 11']I dont expect people who arent into something Im interested in to go seek out more information on the subject. But when someone claims to love something and does not do some research...its a little annoying no matter how down to Earth you may be about your hobby.[/quote]But we're not talking about whether someone is a [i]good[/i] anime fan who has actually taken the time to watch a lot of shows and do research. A piss-poor fan (who, for example, knows nothing beyond Naruto) is still [i]by definition[/i] a fan, and only on this basis can they be better or worse at it. How annoying they are or whether or not they "have no excuse" to not be curious about things that will educate them has no bearing on this bassline fact.

One way out of this is to say that anime fans must, by definition, always seek to know more about their interest. This, too, is contestable and would get a lot of flak, but I think you could offer good reasons for it.

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=Fasteriskhead]1. If someone watches and enjoys some (i.e. > 0) amount of anime, then they are an anime fan. (definition)
[/QUOTE]

[color=dimgray] You forget that someone [i]can[/i] like one anime show but not be a fan of anime. For example, I like Ender's Game. But I am in no way a science-fiction fan.

There are shows in anime that can catch the interest of a broad range of people, but just because you like one show, or even several, doesn't mean you're automatically an anime fan.[/color]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][quote name='volume 11]You are muddling your logic. The argument isnt about RANDOM people seeking out more of (insert hobby here). The argument is about people who claim to love anime seeking out more of the genre and branching out past Naruto.[/quote] I don't think so since I think Rach was talking about the principle in general regardless if we were discussing anime or not. Also as you can see here:[QUOTE=Fasteriskhead] How annoying they are or whether or not they "have no excuse" to not be curious about things that will educate them has no bearing on this bassline fact.[/QUOTE]I'm with both Rachmaninoff and Fasteriskhead on this one. Saying someone has no excuse for not being curious enough to want to know more isn't all that relevant. Or rather even required for one to be a fan of anime or anything else. It just seems like they are not a more hard core or more serious fan. Perhaps later that will change, but if one only loves say one show like Naruto, then that's still a fan, even if only in a small way. [quote=volume 11']You guys do remember we are on an anime board discussing people who claim to love anime? Not random people seeking out more information or media regarding random subjects.[/quote]You do remember that we are on a board that discusses far more than just anime? It only seems logical that the discussions aren't going to limit themselves to the anime side only of a discussion. Even if it's only about what makes one a fan. Especially since I think the definition or guideline of what makes one a fan applies to far more than just anime.

I think you missed what Rach was trying to point out, that the reasoning behind expecting one to be more curious, regardless of what it was, whether it was anime or something else, and that thinking they had no excuse not to be more curious is what's [I]illogical[/I]. [/COLOR]

[TheResplendent]

[FONT=Tahoma]Gotta be honest here, I haven't read every post in this thread because I think the answer is really quite simple.

If your a fan of something, why are you a fan? Because you like it, it's that simple. Being an anime fan doesn't mean you have to draw anime, or go to conventions, or watch only subs, or watch only dubs, or whatever dumbass standards people try to create to protect their own anime fandom. If your an anime fan, then you've seen some anime, and you've liked it.

There may be other categories like Anime Obsessed, and Anime Crazed Fanatics or something like that, for people who incorporate anime in their everyday life or people who believe you need to see 50 animes in japanese and pwn noobs or something obtuse like that. The only real condition for being an anime fan i believe is that you've seen more than one, and liked more then you have not liked. That's it.

I am a Jamed Bond fan because i've seen the movies and liked them all except for maybe Moonraker. I am a Final Fantasy fan because i've played them all and liked them all except 11 and 12, still like the majority. I would not call myself a James Bond fan had i only seen one movie, and liked it since there is still a possibility that if I saw others, I would not like it. So being a fan of something as a general category such as anime does involve having seen more then just one example, which in any case could always be considered an "exception". I have a friend who is not an anime fan what so ever, but he does like pokémon. I wouldn't call him an anime fan, i'd call him a pokémon fan.

If someone has only seen the adult swim animes and liked then, then he/she is an anime fan if he/she believes so. What's wrong with that? Maybe the person doesn't have access to other types of shows or is fully content with watching what's directly available to them on TV, or doesn't have the money to be buying DVDs and boxsets. It doesn't make them "fake" fans or "dissapointing" fans. I have seen plenty of subtitled anime and have bought plenty of boxsets of animes not shown on adult swim, i don't believe this makes me an anime fan and someone who only watches adult swim NOT an anime fan. I might be more of an anime fan because i go out of my way to watch things that interest me, but it doesn't deplete the other person's right to being an anime fan. [/FONT]

[eleanor]

[quote name='SunfallE][COLOR=RoyalBlue'] Saying someone has no excuse for not being curious enough to want to know more isn't all that relevant. Or rather even required for one to be a fan of anime or anything else. It just seems like they are not a more hard core or more serious fan. Perhaps later that will change, but if one only loves say one show like Naruto, then that's still a fan, even if only in a small way. [/COLOR][/quote]

[color=dimgray] But what makes you think that if someone likes Naruto, they like anime? It's entirely possible for someone to like one small part of a medium, but not be a fan of the medium itself.[/color]

[Dagger]

I think that's a really good point, Lunox (as posted above me & earlier in the thread).

However, I think that people who only like a specific show or two for a specific reason are probably inclined to recognize that they're not "anime fans" and may go out of their way to make sure others don't call them that. (e.g. a Go fan might watch Hikaru no Go for that reason--or Hajime no Ippo or Ashita no Joe for boxing, or a historical series because of his interest in that Japanese time period, or a culturally specific comedy because of his interest in Japanese culture in general.)

Is that the sort of thing you were thinking of? Then again, it's harder to come up with that kind of scenario for Naruto...

~Dagger~

[TheResplendent]

[QUOTE=Dagger]I think that's a really good point, Lunox (as posted above me & earlier in the thread).

However, I think that people who only like a specific show or two for a specific reason are probably inclined to recognize that they're not "anime fans" and may go out of their way to make sure others don't call them that. (e.g. a Go fan might watch Hikaru no Go for that reason--or Hajime no Ippo or Ashita no Joe for boxing, or a historical series because of his interest in that Japanese time period, or a culturally specific comedy because of his interest in Japanese culture in general.)

Is that the sort of thing you were thinking of? Then again, it's harder to come up with that kind of scenario for Naruto...

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]

[font=tahoma]Like if someone only watches shows like Samurai Champloo, Samurai Deeper Kyo, Ruruoni Kenshin, etc. Perhaps they just like Samurai shows and not neccesarily anime. This would be furthered bolstered if they watched movies as well, such as The Last Samurai or Zatoichi, etc. If it's just the anime then i think it might be a bit of a mix of both, though only if the person refuses to watch anything else samurai based.

[/font]

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=Dagger]
However, I think that people who only like a specific show or two for a specific reason are probably inclined to recognize that they're not "anime fans" and may go out of their way to make sure others don't call them that. (e.g. a Go fan might watch Hikaru no Go for that reason--or Hajime no Ippo or Ashita no Joe for boxing, or a historical series because of his interest in that Japanese time period, or a culturally specific comedy because of his interest in Japanese culture in general.)

Is that the sort of thing you were thinking of? Then again, it's harder to come up with that kind of scenario for Naruto...

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]

[color=dimgray] That's a pretty good counterpoint, as it happens it a lot. There are a lot of people I know who dislike anime in general but say they like some of it, like the Miyazaki films.

But with the Naruto thing... It's basically one of those typical shounen anime that is [i]slightly[/i] better than most, and most people watch for face-value entertainment; its appeal is pretty broad and I guess that's why so many people like it.

I was thinking more of me when I was writing my post though. I used to think I was a some hardcore anime enthusiast, but I'm really just on the borderline. I appreciate and awe over the really great stuff it [i]can[/i] do, but I can't say I'm a fan.

Like, Naruto? I call myself a Naruto fan, but the show is sometimes mindblowingly boring to me, and it's more of the manga that draws me in.
[/color]

[Road Kamelot]

No your right! People wo enjoy the anime and manga are fans :catgirl:

[Dagger]

@Lunox: Hence, after all this, I stand by my statement that people are anime fans as long as they claim to be anime fans. Even if they're lying (as Nerdsy said half in jest), I'd argue that it still qualifies as a kind of performative coming out. ;)

~Dagger~

[Volume 11]

For starters, if you would all read my original post you would see that Im not knocking anyone, be it a 13 year old Naruto fan or a die hard 1,000 collection plus anime DVD collector. The whole point of my post was that it really doesnt matter either way, as long as you are happy and like what you like because YOU like it.

However, Rach (to prove a point) said that he/she likes classical music and just because he/she likes classical music that doesnt mean that someone WHO IS NOT into classical music should have the same knowledge as he/she does.

I agree with that point, but it doesnt apply to our discussion. We arent talking about non-anime fans "seeking" out more manga/anime. We are talking about anime fans who claim to love anime but have little knowledge of it. And in my case (and I dont know why Fark chose to take it out of context, it was a throw away comment that was followed by me saying I dont judge anyone by what they like. I simply said its somewhat annoying) I do think its lame when someone CLAIMS to love anime but does little to further their own knowledge on the subject.

Do I think they arent a fan because of it? Of course not. Do I think Im a better anime fan because I do and did? Absolutely not. All I said was it can get annoying as someone who wasnt weaned on the AS generation of anime.

I guess we all need to just make the distinction between a casual fan and a hardcore fan. And Im fine with both, but Rachs point is still invalid. Maybe Rach meant to say someone who claims to love classical music but doesnt have a vast knowledge, or care to obtain one...but rach simply said anyone who isnt classical music.

Im into baseball, but why would I expect people who arent into baseball to know who leads the league in HRs? Maybe Im nit-picking a throw away comment myself but again, we arent talking about people who dont like anime. I thought we were talking about casual fans who CLAIM to love anime, but when you ask them what they like its all the typial spoon fed stuff...

Anyways, Im not trying to rub anyone the wrong way. Ultimately I could care less who likes or doesnt like anime. So sorry if I pissed anyone off.

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=Dagger]@Lunox: Hence, after all this, I stand by my statement that people are anime fans as long as they claim to be anime fans. Even if they're lying (as Nerdsy said half in jest), I'd argue that it still qualifies as a kind of performative coming out. ;)

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]

[color=dimgray] Yes, your answer did seem to be the most simple and complete, lol. Leave to us to discuss into depth such a pointless topic.[/color]

[Ikillion]

[COLOR=#0e1030][SIZE=1][FONT=Trebuchet MS][QUOTE=Dagger]Someone who says he's an anime fan.
[/QUOTE]
I mean seriously, thats it.

Edit: Omg, Lunox beat me to it[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[QUOTE=Volume 11][B] I do think its lame when someone CLAIMS to love anime but does little to further their own knowledge on the subject. [/B]

And Im fine with both, but Rachs point is still invalid. Maybe Rach meant to say someone who claims to love classical music but doesnt have a vast knowledge, or care to obtain one...but rach simply said anyone who isnt classical music.[/QUOTE]No hun, the point was not invalid, both of you are arguing semantics a bit here since your original point was that they had no excuse for not being curious instead of what you may have meant by the part I highlighted. Perhaps you meant to originally say you found it lame instead of saying they had [I]no excuse[/I] for not wanting to know more. ;)

I got the general gist of what both of you were trying to say or at least what I think you were trying to say. And I think SunfallE got it as well as I understood the general principle that both of you were getting at. Though not wanting to know more is something that in my opinion is far from lame. Since it makes an unfair assumption on the person in question.

To give an example, I watch very little anime for the simple reason that there is a lot of stuff I do not care for. I instead rely on my daughter and her friends who understand what I do like to introduce me to shows. And it works just fine since so far the shows they have suggested, I have liked. I do not actively seek new shows since I really have no interest. Even my interest in joining this place was not due to anime. I joined because my daughter is a member and because one of my real life friends is a member as well. ;)

In the end I agree with Dagger, if someone considers themselves a fan of anime, then they are, even if like me they have seen all of three shows. I don't consider myself a more serious fan, but definitely a fan of two of the shows I have seen. So as SunfallE said, I'm a fan, in a very small way.

[Nerdsy]

[QUOTE=Dagger]@Lunox: Hence, after all this, I stand by my statement that people are anime fans as long as they claim to be anime fans. Even if they're lying (as Nerdsy said half in jest), I'd argue that it still qualifies as a kind of performative coming out. ;)

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]And I'd argue, based on firsthand experience, that that is not always the case. I've got a close friend who claimed to like anime to impress her then-boyfriend, although it was clear that she had no interest whatsoever. I would also argue that it is possible that someone may claim to be a fan, but not know what anime actually is; I've heard Justice League referred to as anime.

I would propose a definition that covers the entire spectrum; "Someone who enjoys anime."[/color]

[TheResplendent]

[QUOTE=Nerdsy][color=deeppink]And I'd argue, based on firsthand experience, that that is not always the case. I've got a close friend who claimed to like anime to impress her then-boyfriend, although it was clear that she had no interest whatsoever. I would also argue that it is possible that someone may claim to be a fan, but not know what anime actually is; I've heard Justice League referred to as anime.

I would propose a definition that covers the entire spectrum; "Someone who enjoys anime."[/color][/QUOTE]
[font=tahoma]
Pretty much my view on it, the latter part as stated above in my other post and the former relies too much on what the person says and not so much about whether it's actually true or not. You can call yourself a mexican gangster, but be a white anglo saxon kid in south carolina. Don't make ya one because you say so. You need to have some kind of legitamate positive and likeable connection with what your calling yourself a fan of.[/font]

[Volume 11]

Not according to many people on this board.

Im also an astronaut. I have never trained in the air force or NASA. I have never left the Earth's atmosphere. And I can't name any of the planets in our solar system besides our own. But still, because I say I am an astronaut I must be one.

And the whole notion of the OP is setting up an argument of semantics and split hairs.

[Rachmaninoff]

[QUOTE=Volume 11]Not according to many people on this board.

Im also an astronaut. I have never trained in the air force or NASA. I have never left the Earth's atmosphere. And I can't name any of the planets in our solar system besides our own. But still, because I say I am an astronaut I must be one.

And the whole notion of the OP is setting up an argument of semantics and split hairs.[/QUOTE]Well since SunfallE, Fasteriskhead and Aaryanna_Mom seem to have gotten what I was getting at I'll not repeat it.

However, I think it's safe to say that none of us think we are [I]say Naruto[/I] or the characters we consider ourselves fans of. Semantics or not, I think it's pretty safe to say[I] no one[/I] in this thread thinks that by saying we are Naruto we must therefore be so.

Being a fan really has nothing to do with claiming we are something that clearly we are not. At least not in such a more tangible and real meaning or manner as saying one is an astronaut. lol I just don't see the comparison here. Now if you were to say you were a [I]fan[/I] of astronauts I'd believe you. ;)

[r2vq]

[color=#007520]Considering we're debating the definition of the phrase "Anime Fan"... why not break it down?

We all know what "Anime" means, and that leaves...

[quote=Dictionary.com][size=1][size=2][b]fan[/b][/size]2 /fæn/ [fan]
?noun an [size=2][b]enthusiastic devotee, follower, or admirer[/b][/size] of a sport, pastime, celebrity, etc.: a baseball fan; a great fan of Charlie Chaplin.

[Origin: 1885?90, Americanism; [size=2][b]short for fanatic[/b][/size]]

?Synonyms supporter, enthusiast, partisan, booster, addict.
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006. [/size][/quote]Now that we have that in the air... although the word "fan" was originally short for "fanatic" and can be defined as "an enthusiastic devotee", the word has grown and changed since its humble beginnings and can now mean simply an admirer.

And like Aaryanna_Mom, not all admirers are fanatically devoted to the pastime that they are admiring. They can still be called fans of a medium if they have an interest in it.

[size=1]Yes, Aaryanna_Mom doesn't have an interest in searching for new Anime, but she has an interest in the Anime that has been brought to her attention already. Thus she is an Anime fan.

Yes, the local Narutard doesn't have an interest in anything but Naruto, but they have an interest in Naruto, thus they are a fan of Naruto. A fan of [i]an[/i] Anime, even if not necessarily a fan of [i]all[/i] Anime.[/size]

Now how do we judge if someone actually has an interest in something? We can't. It's a qualitative trait, not quantitative. It differs for each person. Thus, each person has to proclaim their interest one form or another. If you can proclaim your interest, you are therefore a fan of said pastime. ie If you say you're an Anime fan, you are.

The same logic doesn't go for astronauts...

[quote=Dictionary.com][b][size=2]as·tro·naut[/size][/b][size=1] /ˈæstrəˌnɔt, -ˌnɒt/ [as-truh-nawt, -not]
?noun a person [b]engaged in or trained for[/b] spaceflight.[/size][/quote]-r2[/color]

[Nerdsy]

[QUOTE=r2vq][color=#007520]Now how do we judge if someone actually has an interest in something? We can't. It's a qualitative trait, not quantitative. It differs for each person. Thus, each person has to proclaim their interest one form or another. If you can proclaim your interest, you are therefore a fan of said pastime. ie If you say you're an Anime fan, you are.

-r2[/color][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]So what you're saying is that if we can't prove they're not, then they are? This doesn't seem right, as it allows your simpler definition of "admirer of anime" to be applied to someone who hates anime. Case in point, that friend I mentioned earlier who absolutely despised anime, but put on a show so as to please her boyfriend.

This isn't really a subjective thing; people either like it or they don't. My (or your) ability to determine if they do does not change their opinion.[/color]

[Fasteriskhead]

[quote name='Lunox][color=dimgray] You forget that someone [i]can[/i'] like one anime show but not be a fan of anime. For example, I like Ender's Game. But I am in no way a science-fiction fan. [/color][/quote]I actually find this strange. To give an example, since I like Johnny Cash I would consider myself [i]somewhat[/i] of a country fan, even if he and a few others are the only musicians there that I like. I wouldn't say that I'm not a country fan but that I make "exceptions" - I would say that I [i]am[/i] a fan, although not much of one (or, that I have a very narrow range).

If we're going to make identification as an anime fan a criteria - which is a good idea, and I wish I'd thought of it first - then I think to avoid astronaut problems we should also retain "has seen at least one anime" as a qualification (equivalent to "has been in space at least once" or "has been adequately trained for spaceflight" for Volume 11's objection).