Anime What's an anime fan?

[Meggido]

[QUOTE=Nerdsy][color=deeppink]So what you're saying is that if we can't prove they're not, then they are? This doesn't seem right, as it allows your simpler definition of "admirer of anime" to be applied to someone who hates anime. Case in point, that friend I mentioned earlier who absolutely despised anime, but put on a show so as to please her boyfriend.

This isn't really a subjective thing; people either like it or they don't. My (or your) ability to determine if they do does not change their opinion.[/color][/QUOTE]

It might not seem right but what r2vq said is quite literally correct. If you can't prove that they do like anime or don't like anime then you just have to take their word for it. With that friend you mentioned earlier you can prove that she was lying so she's in fact a different case. Simply put he's saying if someone says they're a fan of anime and you can't prove otherwise then you just have to take from word of mouth that they are a fan.

As for it not being subjective, it actually is very subjective. It may be that you either do or don't like it but that's subjective to change from person to person. When you look at something subjectively you're not taking a 1 person basis but you are taking a wide selection of sources to base that on.

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='Meggido']It might not seem right but what r2vq said is quite literally correct. If you can't prove that they do like anime or don't like anime then you just have to take their word for it. With that friend you mentioned earlier you can prove that she was lying so she's in fact a different case. Simply put he's saying if someone says they're a fan of anime and you can't prove otherwise then you just have to take from word of mouth that they are a fan.[/quote]

[color=deeppink]I wouldn't want to disprove them. But that doesn't mean they [i]are[/i] one. Something doesn't have to be proven for it to be true. The whole debate here is over what an anime fan is, and going by the definition of "admirer of anime," my friend alone would prove that saying you are one does not make you one.

I could claim to someone that I watch 24 every week. That person would still have no reason to disbelieve me, but I would still be lying.[/color]

[quote]As for it not being subjective, it actually is very subjective. It may be that you either do or don't like it but that's subjective to change from person to person. When you look at something subjectively you're not taking a 1 person basis but you are taking a wide selection of sources to base that on.[/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]If something is subjective, it is solely an opinion. Yes, interests may change from person to person, but whether or not someone [i]is[/i] interested is objective. While there may be different levels of interest (like/love/etc), it doesn't matter.

If someone is interested in something, it is an objective fact that they aren. If they are not interested in something, it is an objective fact that they aren't.[/color]

[Meggido]

[QUOTE=Nerdsy][color=deeppink]I wouldn't want to disprove them. But that doesn't mean they [i]are[/i] one. Something doesn't have to be proven for it to be true. The whole debate here is over what an anime fan is, and going by the definition of "admirer of anime," my friend alone would prove that saying you are one does not make you one.

I could claim to someone that I watch 24 every week. That person would still have no reason to disbelieve me, but I would still be lying.[/color][/QUOTE]

And the person she was telling that she liked anime would have to take it from word of mouth that she was a admirer of anime (if we're gonna continue to use that term). You might be able to say with certainty that she is in fact not, but her boyfriend cannot. This is what makes the topic truly subjective. Though you're point makes it seem you didn't really understand my point before.

You say you wouldn't want to disprove them, and I'm certain no one would bother taking the time to do so either, but what I was saying is that we are walking a fine line regarding the idea of someone being a fan and not being one since majority of the time we are hearing people's opinions coming from word of mouth, weather true or untrue.


[QUOTE=Nerdsy]
[color=deeppink]If something is subjective, it is solely an opinion. Yes, interests may change from person to person, but whether or not someone [i]is[/i] interested is objective. While there may be different levels of interest (like/love/etc), it doesn't matter.

If someone is interested in something, it is an objective fact that they are. If they are not interested in something, it is an objective fact that they aren't.[/color][/QUOTE]

Actually it's not that set in concrete. By saying it's objective you're suggesting that this will never change. It's a very subjective thing to say you like something or you don't like something. For example I love anime now but who's to say that in 10 years this will still be the case. It's is subjective because it is subject to change and I'm positive my choice in shows, music, etc that I like 10 years ago is substantially different to what it is now.

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='Meggido']And the person she was telling that she liked anime would have to take it from word of mouth that she was a admirer of anime (if we're gonna continue to use that term). You might be able to say with certainty that she is in fact not, but her boyfriend cannot. This is what makes the topic truly subjective. Though you're point makes it seem you didn't really understand my point before.[/quote]

[color=deeppink]And your point makes it seem that you're missing my point altogether, the one I originally made; that simply because somebody is saying they are, does not mean they are.

Further, what she feels is not determined by by anybody else. She is hates anime [i]completely independant[/i] of whether or not somebody realizes it.[/color]


[quote]You say you wouldn't want to disprove them, and I'm certain no one would bother taking the time to do so either, but what I was saying is that we are walking a fine line regarding the idea of someone being a fan and not being one since majority of the time we are hearing people's opinions coming from word of mouth, weather true or untrue.[/quote]


[color=deeppink]And I'm saying that claiming to be an anime fan and being an anime fan are two different things. That is the very crux of my arguement. The topic is, after all, "what is an anime fan." While we may squabble over how devoted one has to be to be an anime fan, I don't see how anyone can accept a definition that doesn't list "liking anime" as a prerequisite.[/color]



[quote]Actually it's not that set in concrete. By saying it's objective you're suggesting that this will never change.[/quote]

[color=deeppink]No, no I'm not.

I could claim the wind is blowing, and that would be objective. Doesn't mean the wind would always be blowing.

Objective does not mean eternal.

On that note, let's look at the definitions.

[url]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/objective[/url] (pay close attention to the definition of wordnet #3; no "insertion of a fictional matter")

[url]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subjective[/url] (note the use of "percieved" and "biased")

Most of those relevant definitions for objective involve observable phenomena; her actions and her words would certainly fit this bill. Her opinions also exist seperate from the observer (boyfriend).

I'll admit that my arguements regarding "subjective" are a little shakier when seeing the definitions, let's look at the definition I used originally.

"Philosophy. relating to or of the nature of an object as it is known in the mind as distinct from a thing in itself."

That is the definition I have been using. Clearly, his belief ragarding her was (as far as I know) distinct from her herself. You seem to have been using a different defintion, though, one that does fit.

So while it is subjective, it's still not subjective. ; )[/color]

[Meggido]

[QUOTE]5. not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
6. intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book.
[/QUOTE]

these are the definitions for objective that stand out for me for this argument. Liking something and not liking something are composed entirely of a biased opinion as well as personal feelings, thus liking or not liking anime is not in fact an objective thing but subjective. This is not so much as for the way your friend see's it or her boyfriend either, but as general widespread thing. I think where both of us got mixed up there was you were looking solely at your case where as I've been looking more at a widespread thing that's less defined.

I was more using [QUOTE]existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought[/QUOTE] more in my mind as the definition for subjective, as even though I've done both sciences and philosophy, a scientific definition sometimes seems more natural to me.

as for

[QUOTE][COLOR=Deeppink]The topic is, after all, "what is an anime fan." While we may squabble over how devoted one has to be to be an anime fan, I don't see how anyone can accept a definition that doesn't list "liking anime" as a prerequisite.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

what you and I have been arguing over is more the fact that how do we really know if some one really "likes anime." this may make things a bit confusing but when someone claims they like anime we can't be certain that they do. In some ways we can determine that an "anime fan" should have some liking of anime whether it be 1 show or many. I think that was kinda agreed on ages ago, and from my view what you and I've been discussing Nerdsy is more how do you tell whether someone is an "anime fan." This is harder to tell as it's word of mouth. and a different topic altogether.

[QUOTE][COLOR=Deeppink]And I'm saying that claiming to be an anime fan and being an anime fan are two different things.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I haven't claimed once that the two were the same thing. I just said that if someone claims that they are an anime fan sometimes all we can do is accept what they say.

Note: why can't I actually write my philosophy assignments on topics like this rather than on religions *cry*

[Volume 11]

I think Nerdsy has made the most sense in this thread so far. I also think we are all arguing about something that is pretty stupid.

That being said, when I originally said it was somewhat "annoying" that people who claim to love the genre and do not seek out new anime or have that "curiousity" my friends and I had I was speaking from a love of the history of anime. And again, it was a throw away comment that wasn't intended to summarize my point, yet everyone who has responded to it is acting like it was.

And Farks, I love Cash, too. And I can assure you that doesnt make me a country fan. It is possible to like a random example of a genre you do not consider yourself a fan of and still not be a fan of the genre. Cash is great because he transcends the genre, thus the fan following that isnt comprised of only country music fans.

Aryiannas Mom (sorry if I spelled it wrong), by your description I would consider you an anime fan. I never once disputed or implied that if you do not seek out anime that you can't be a fan. I was carefull to use the phrase "someone who claims to LOVE anime". Im talking about the kid that wears a FMA shirt on Monday, a DBZ shirt on Tuesday and a Naruto shirt on Wednesday. Im talking about the kid who doodles generic anime at his desk during school. The kind of person that lets the world know he/she loves anime. Ive met plenty of kids like that and when I have talked to them I still find it somewhat annoying they do not have that "curiousity" I speak of. Yes, I think thats a bad thing. We live in the internet and Netflix age. If someone claims to "love", not like or be a casual fan of anime it stands to reason they would be hungry for more and would use all the tools they could to search more out. With Neflix, the internet and AS their is little excuse not to. BUT AGAIN, because everyone likes to isolate those comments and make me look like an elitist, I do not care ultimately if someone likes one anime or a thousand. As I have said a million times now, like what you like and ignore the labels or what other poeple think.

That being said for the 3rd or 4th time, I cant wait to see who isolates my "annoyed" comment again and runs with it like Im an anime snob who thinks anyone who even watches an anime once by accident should be the Leonard Maltin of the genre.

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Volume 11']That being said for the 3rd or 4th time, I cant wait to see who isolates my "annoyed" comment again and runs with it like Im an anime snob who thinks anyone who even watches an anime once by accident should be the Leonard Maltin of the genre.[/quote]I got the impression that people were enjoying discussing the details of what is involved in considering someone a fan of anime. I didn't get the impression that anyone thought you were an anime snob. ;) Rather one that they were pointing out how that part of your post seemed to contradict the rest. Something that you've since clarified as to what you meant.

I hope you are aren't taking this too seriously since I've found the whole thing rather interesting to read. :catgirl:

[B]EDIT:[/B] And to be clear I did not think you were a snob.

[Desbreko]

[quote=r2vq][color=#007520]Considering we're debating the definition of the phrase "Anime Fan"... why not break it down?

We all know what "Anime" means, and that leaves...

[quote=Dictionary.com][size=1][size=2][b]fan[/b][/size]2 /fæn/ [fan]
?noun an [size=2][b]enthusiastic devotee, follower, or admirer[/b][/size] of a sport, pastime, celebrity, etc.: a baseball fan; a great fan of Charlie Chaplin.

[Origin: 1885?90, Americanism; [size=2][b]short for fanatic[/b][/size]]

?Synonyms supporter, enthusiast, partisan, booster, addict.
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006. [/size][/quote]Now that we have that in the air... although the word "fan" was originally short for "fanatic" and can be defined as "an enthusiastic devotee", the word has grown and changed since its humble beginnings and can now mean simply an admirer.[/color][/quote][color=#4B0082]It's good to see that someone actually went back to the definition of "fan" and worked from there.

To add a bit to this, the definition actually allows for someone to be an anime fan even if they dislike every anime series ever made. Anime being a style of animation, all they have to do to be considered an anime fan is admire that style, not the shows themselves. Thus, throwing around specific titles, number of shows watched, or amount of interest is completely irrelevant in determining whether or not someone in an anime fan.[/color]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='meggido]']I haven't claimed once that the two were the same thing. I just said that if someone claims that they are an anime fan sometimes all we can do is accept what they say. [/quote]

[color=deeppink]This is where I got the impression that you did.[/color]

[quote name='r2vq]']If you can proclaim your interest, you are therefore a fan of said pastime. ie If you say you're an Anime fan, you are.[/quote]

[quote name='meggido']It might not seem right but what r2vq said is quite literally correct.[/quote]

[color=deeppink]If you did not mean the same thing as my interpretation, my apologies

As for the definitions... if she has an opinion, then her having an opinion is fact, unmarred by our interpretation, personal feelings, and prejudice. While it may be subjective to her, it is objective to [i]us.[/i] It is a quality she has, and exists independantly of the minds of others.

I'd make the same argument for the other defintion; she exists outside of our minds, and thus we may only take an objective approach in that regard. Besides, it basically says "dealing with a person," which is what we've been doing.[/color]



[quote name='Desbreko'] To add a bit to this, the definition actually allows for someone to be an anime fan even if they dislike every anime series ever made. Anime being a style of animation, all they have to do to be considered an anime fan is admire that style, not the shows themselves. Thus, throwing around specific titles, number of shows watched, or amount of interest is completely irrelevant in determining whether or not someone in an anime fan.[/quote]

[color=deeppink]I don't know if this was directed against my argument or not; but she hates the style of animation, heh. Hell, she hates animation altogether from what I can gather. One of those 'if it's not real, it's stupid" types.

I do recognize that admiration may come in different forms. ; )[/color]

[Dagger]

[quote name='Fasteriskhead]I actually find this strange. To give an example, since I like Johnny Cash I would consider myself [i]somewhat[/i] of a country fan, even if he and a few others are the only musicians there that I like. I wouldn't say that I'm not a country fan but that I make "exceptions" - I would say that I [i]am[/i'] a fan, although not much of one (or, that I have a very narrow range).[/quote]
Her thinking makes sense to me. Going back to Ender's Game, she may have liked it in spite of the fact that it's sci-fi--or rather, the reason she liked it isn't because she's a sci-fi fan in some small way, but because she's a fan of books that deal seriously with children or have good character development. (Which is all speculation on my part. Sorry, Lunox. :animeswea)

To use another example, I like what little I've heard of Japanese hip-hop because it's hysterically entertaining, not because it professes to be hip-hop or because I'm a fan of hip-hop in general.

~Dagger~

[eleanor]

[quote name='Dagger']Her thinking makes sense to me. Going back to Ender's Game, she may have liked it in spite of the fact that it's sci-fi--or rather, the reason she liked it isn't because she's a sci-fi fan in some small way, but because she's a fan of books that deal seriously with children or have good character development. (Which is all speculation on my part. Sorry, Lunox. :animeswea)[/quote]

[color=dimgray] Well, yeah, pretty much. :) I'm a fan of good books, and Ender's Game happens to be a good book that is also science-fiction. Some books will rely on their genre to carry weight, just like every medium does. It probably happens in anime, and the only anime that appeals to a broad range of people are the ones that are just plain [i]good[/i]. Miyazaki, for example.[/color]

[i.luv.kiba]

[QUOTE=Dagger]I think that's a really good point, Lunox (as posted above me & earlier in the thread).

However, I think that people who only like a specific show or two for a specific reason are probably inclined to recognize that they're not "anime fans" and may go out of their way to make sure others don't call them that. (e.g. a Go fan might watch Hikaru no Go for that reason--or Hajime no Ippo or Ashita no Joe for boxing, or a historical series because of his interest in that Japanese time period, or a culturally specific comedy because of his interest in Japanese culture in general.)

Is that the sort of thing you were thinking of? Then again, it's harder to come up with that kind of scenario for Naruto...

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=2][B][COLOR=Green]i agree w/ what you mean about Naruto. i have friends who watch that show and like it but you say a word like 'manga' or 'fan service' or even 'yaoi' and they will have no clue what the heck you're talking about. so i suppose it does kind of depend on what anime they watch, how much they watch, and to what levels they will strive to see it (or read it if we're talking manga)[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]

[SIZE=2][COLOR=SlateGray]~the Akatsuki are Watching~
*Ustez*[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Roleni-Chan]

Why are people saying your aren?t an anime fan because you don?t like one anime they enjoy?They are just hating because you aren?t interested. To me, I really hate the anime Naruto, but I heard I am not an anime fan just because of that. I mean how many anime are out there in the world. You are comparing one from how many they are. When I hear ?anime fan? they make it like it?s a scene, like emo, if you don?t cut, you aren?t emo. For Thrashers, if you don?t have really long hair and don?t wear tight pants, you are a poser. I don?t understand how people want to prove something like that. People are different and they should like whatever they pleased. I myself, I notice Im more in to anime that comes from CLAMP, just because some people in my school never saw anime form them, they say its trash. To me, the classic animes from the past are great as well. Though no one talks about them now, which its sad, all they care if they hear the newest anime.