Bush Vetos

[Starwind]

I'm sure most of you are aware, but incase your not, congress recently introduced a bill that would allow the US to slowly begin withdrawing troops from Iraq, which President Bush made good on his threat to veto.

Now, I am one such soldier who thinks this to be a rather arrogant move by the president. It's as if he did it out of spite for the new democratic congress. I wanted to hear some opinions on this recent event from my friends here on the OB.

I think this was just another bull headed move that will only further sabotage the president.

Anyone who's spent even a month in Iraq knows that were no really doing anything there anymore. Were fighting without a game plan. It feels less like a liberation and more like colonization. I think it would be in the best intrest of the US to back out now and focus on protecting the home front. As it stands the borders and ports of America are virtually unprotected.

Let's face it, this is a done deal, and the soldiers are doing there now is dieing. And trust me, that's no place you want to die in. These people are perhaps some of the most vicious the US have ever faced. It's hard to believe how far they'll go sometimes, but this only makes it that much more important that we hurry home and protect ourselves.

As a soldier in Iraq you can quickly go from the most loved person around to the most despised in matter of a few seconds. On one street they swarm around you, thanking and blessing you, and then just two or three streets down your not sure which one wants to kill you, or whether or not your in some rooftops snipers sights.

Bush thinks to pull out is to lose, but we sure as hell aren't gonna win by just staying there. What we need is a game plan. I'm a soldier. I'm prepared to die for my country if need be, but I don't want to be a meaningless one, because those are the kinds of deaths you face in Iraq. You die while fighting for nothing. At least let us know what were fighting against now, or what we're trying to achieve.

I'd love to hear what the rest of you think.

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR=Darkorange]Honestly? I've abandoned politics. My mom's an extreme liberal and a 'the government is all lies' type of person, which had me giong that way for a while too, but I just don't care anymore. I'm in permanent denial -- I've chosen to believe that everything is a conspiracy and that we are the toys of those above us. I don't want to have an opion in this sort of thing. When I have an opinion, I want to act on it, and this is something I believe to be beyond my power. I don't even count as neutral, I just straight-up don't care anymore. Yes, I think it's bad that ya'll are dying out there, but I can't help you, and I'm not gunna let it sit on my concience or anything. President Bush? The next guy? I'll just mold into the background of their policy.

Do I approve of what he does? Hell no. I know for a fact that if I could, I'd turn all this around, but sitting around being angry abot it has yet to do any good. Let the ballots do the talking I say.

Maybe when I'm old enough to vote I'll start taking sides.[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='2007DigitalBoy][COLOR=Darkorange']Honestly? I've abandoned politics.[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]Congratulations. People like you are the reason we're still in Iraq. You see, apathy towards government is equivalent to tacit consent to government actions. If you don't speak out against it, then you've also got a blame to shoulder.

Really, the biggest thing that pisses me off about the veto is that people see the Democrats as "losing momentum" or "not getting the job done". It's not because of the Dems that we won't withdraw from Iraq, it's because the GOP and Bush refuse to budge, refuse to compromise, and refuse to revise the strategy (or lack thereof).[/size]

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR=Blue]I think that if iraq is going to keep doing this, they should screw themselves over. We should leave them ,and if they keep illing each other, we should let them. I feel that it's not our country, so it's not our problem anymore. Lret's make them get themselves together. I don't think baby-sitting them any longer will help them. That will make them more of a trget for other countries. They are weak, so others will fight for the land. It's cowardly but some cournties do that to others.[/COLOR]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DarkRed][quote name='Retribution][size=1]Congratulations. People like you are the reason we're still in Iraq. You see, apathy towards government is equivalent to tacit consent to government actions. If you don't speak out against it, then you've also got a blame to shoulder.[/size][/QUOTE]Don't be so quick to point fingers Retribution. DB can't even vote yet and speaking out doesn't make a difference when someone like Bush refuses to accept the decision of the rest of the government. All the speaking in the world can't stop the president from being a jackass and vetoing the decision to withdraw.[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1'] it's because the GOP and Bush refuse to budge, refuse to compromise, and refuse to revise the strategy (or lack thereof).[/size][/quote]Why give DB a hard time when the true problem is what you just stated? What annoys me is when people get on others cases about not being more vocal, especially when they don't even have the right to vote yet. DB can shout all he wants and argue his points all he wants and the stupid GOP and Bush don't give a damn.

Oh and as for the actual topic. It's no surprise that Bush refuses to back down. I'm not even going to bother to get into how much he disgusts me. And even though I was vocal and did vote, we are still stuck in Iraq and it didn't make any difference whatsoever. [/COLOR]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']Congratulations. People like you are the reason we're still in Iraq. You see, apathy towards government is equivalent to tacit consent to government actions. If you don't speak out against it, then you've also got a blame to shoulder.[/size][/quote]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]Okay. That's bull. I'm sorry, but just because I was born in America and happen to be alive now while this is an issue, I am automatically to blame for it? So your saying that, my uninvolvement IS, in fact, involvement. That i am absolutely on a side, no matter what? That because one person isn't making a difference, he's automatically making things worse?

I don't understand this opinion at all. In fact, I'd go so far as to call you an idiot for even having this opinion. I do not consent to the actions of our government, I think I made that pretty clear, but I'm not jumping to me feet to fight a losing battle with the rest of you guys.

Your opinion, in fact, has it's own way of putting the said actions above you. Your basically saying that anyone who isn't resistance is a member of the oppression. I don't think that's true, though. The way I see it, the people in the government and the people are against it are two equal opposing sides. The only difference id the influence held by wither side. People who aren't taking sides are opressed by whatever's in control. The people who fight the power, if they won, then they would then be the ones oppressing the middle-grounders. Whether this is good for the middle-grounders or not is a matter of the nature of the conflict, but the innocent people cannot be blamed for anything.[/COLOR]

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR=DimGray]Even if DB could vote and rise up with opinion, would it matter? I can't vote neither but I already know I can't make an impact. The president doesn't listen to the common people. Hell, just look at the protests. Bush doesn't care. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=Blue]Retribution here's a question for you. Are you making an impact on the president. I think that answer is clear. Don't say anything until you speak out and make a difference to Bush.[/COLOR]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Starwind]I'm sure most of you are aware, but incase your not, congress recently introduced a bill that would allow the US to slowly begin withdrawing troops from Iraq, which President Bush made good on his threat to veto.[/QUOTE]No surprise there, he's unwilling to accept the general wish for us to withdraw. [QUOTE=Starwind]I think this was just another bull headed move that will only further sabotage the president.[/QUOTE]Sabotage? He's almost out of office. It's not like it's really going to affect him in the long run, maybe the republican party since they've fallen out of favor due to his pigheaded stupidity. If anything it's an indication we should be vetoing his butt out of office. [QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]Congratulations. People like you are the reason we're still in Iraq. You see, apathy towards government is equivalent to tacit consent to government actions. If you don't speak out against it, then you've also got a blame to shoulder.[/size][/QUOTE]I'd really like to know just how you think that is even true. Or did you miss the part in 2007DigitalBoy's post where he said this:[QUOTE=2007DigitalBoy][COLOR=Darkorange]Maybe when I'm old enough to vote I'll start taking sides.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]If someone is not even part of the decision process to begin with, they cannot be held accountable for what happens. Whether they voice their opinion or not is irrelevant. In the end, he has no voice when it comes to deciding what is done. He cannot have true apathy towards the government unless he has a real say in what is done. And even if he did, blaming him would not change the fact that Bush vetoed the decision in spite of those who do have the power choosing to withdraw. So lets keep the blame where it truly belongs instead of trying to place it on those who are not responsible.[QUOTE=indifference][COLOR=DarkRed']And even though I was vocal and did vote, we are still stuck in Iraq and it didn't make any difference whatsoever. [/COLOR][/quote]Same here, I did not vote for Bush I have not agreed with most of the decisions made since on some level I believe we have no business over there. So I think it's rather sad that Bush refuses to respect the choices of those who do represent the people.

Frankly I find the whole thing irritating since it's been made clear that the American people do not want to be there and yet Bush is ignoring that in favor of his own agenda.

[Allamorph]

[quote name='2007DigitalBoy][COLOR=DarkOrange']I'm sorry, but just because I was born in America and happen to be alive now while this is an issue, I am automatically to blame for it? So your saying that, my uninvolvement IS, in fact, involvement. That i am absolutely on a side, no matter what? That because one person isn't making a difference, he's automatically making things worse?[/COLOR][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Please pardon my bluntness, but, in order of asked questions: no, yes, yes, and no.

The person who's decision created the issue is to blame for it, whether it goes well or ill. The only blame you as the individual take is the blame for not exercising your power to demonstrate your disapproval of said action. (And I do realize that your power as of now is extremely limited. Bear with me.)

Yes, you are involved. The president is elected by the people to represent the people. In basic terms, when we put a president into office, we authorize him to make large-scale decisions on our behalf. If we don't like the way he's running things, then we do not re-elect him. If you say nothing, then you are obviously not telling him what a lousy job he may be doing, so you are implying that you support him. After all, how is the president supposed to know that he's royally screwing things up if no one says anything?

No, one person will not make things worse by not making a difference. But neither will he make things better. Instead, he is allowing others to make things worse while he looks on and does nothing.[/FONT]

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson]The Democrats are pushing their luck with such a slim majority. President Bush is notoriously steadfast and I doubt much can be done against it. While it was a noble statement against the War in Iraq I believe that reality needs to set in and that this option of timetables, one that some Republicans are open to, is a good next move and probably should have been their first move.

The War in Iraq seems unsalvageable to me. The goals of, say, making the country better or some kind of Iraqi renaissance involving democracy is not on the table at all. This option of surging troops could have been made to work two or three years ago but with the current situation I just don't see how anyone, especially after reading the Iraq Study Group report, could consider that as the definitive path to even a Pyrrhic victory. It's baffling what neoconservatives think and do sometimes.

I'm not sure there are good options anymore. Some hard choices will have to be made in the coming year and I think it might be an inevitability that all of them involve further suffering in Iraq as we just.. walk away. If only Iraqis could walk away too, heh.

As for what the common voter should or should not do, well. My general advice is that there are diamonds amongst politicians but most of them are just coal. Certain parties agendas change over time as ideologies evolve- for example, Republicans weren't always dominated by neocons. You have to pay attention to these trends as well.

Just keep your head straight and stay aware of the issues. Democrats aren't right by default and neither are Republicans. Don't get sucked into that partisan bull. Most advertisements for candidates have more hot air than a blimp. Be independent and spend a bit of time researching on your own.

You do matter in the scheme of Democracy. Leaders serve the people as much as people serve the leaders.

Don't let them think otherwise.[/color]

[visualkei]

[QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]
I'm not sure there are good options anymore. Some hard choices will have to be made in the coming year and I think it might be an inevitability that all of them involve further suffering in Iraq as we just.. walk away. If only Iraqis could walk away too, heh.
[/color][/QUOTE]

Seriously. =I

I can see why some people are upset over the whole Bush-veto issue, but I don't think the other option is a good idea either. There are tough decisions to make. The majority of Americans voted to wage war in Iraq, we've barely cleaned up our mess, and I'm in disbelief that so many want to withdraw at a time like this. I can see why Bush is opening up a can of veto over this. We've got to find a way to best end something we've started, and I don't think walking away sounds right.

War is awful, and Lord knows I want it to be over, but I fear that not only are we not making things better, but we will unleash something more awful by abandonning Iraq right now.

[Allamorph]

[quote name='visualkei']There are tough decisions to make. The majority of Americans voted to wage war in Iraq, we've barely cleaned up our mess, and I'm in disbelief that so many want to withdraw at a time like this. . . . We've got to find a way to best end something we've started, and I don't think walking away sounds right.[/quote]
[FONT=Arial]There's also the unfortunate reminder that this region has been at war internally for an unbelievably long time. Fighting is almost a way of life there, and in fights like these, people die. You can't plan ahead for every car- or suicide-bomb or convoy ambush, and because you can't, more people will die. It's unavoidable.

And I am inclined to agree that walking away is not advisable. Nevermind that it might possibly sound like admitting defeat; I could care less. You win some, you lose some. But keep in mind that [U]to the Islamic nation[/U] we are still viewed as a Christian power ? as infidels ? and we will eventually be attacked again.[/FONT]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][QUOTE=Allamorph][FONT=Arial]There's also the unfortunate reminder that this region has been at war internally for an unbelievably long time. Fighting is almost a way of life there, and in fights like these, people die. You can't plan ahead for every car- or suicide-bomb or convoy ambush, and because you can't, more people will die. It's unavoidable.

And I am inclined to agree that walking away is not advisable. Nevermind that it might possibly sound like admitting defeat; I could care less. You win some, you lose some. But keep in mind that [U]to the Islamic nation[/U] we are still viewed as a Christian power ? as infidels ? and we will eventually be attacked again.[/FONT][/QUOTE]The problem is as you put it in the first part, they've been at this for a very long time. It's not like we can somehow bring peace to a region that hasn't had peace for an unbelievably long time.

I know people say that the majority of Americans wanted us to go there, but for those of us who were not among the Americans who wanted it, we feel it's time we look at how we can pull out of a fight that isn't ours to begin with. About the only difference now is we can be more vocal without worrying about other Americans getting angry over our perceived lack of support.

Just as some can't comprehend how we want to withdraw, on the flip side some of us don't understand why others were so for it to begin with. [/COLOR]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='visualkei']The majority of Americans voted to wage war in Iraq[/quote]
When, when, when did this ever happen? The American people have no say in war declaration or troop movement.

[quote name='visualkei']we've barely cleaned up our mess, and I'm in disbelief that so many want to withdraw at a time like this. I can see why Bush is opening up a can of veto over this. We've got to find a way to best end something we've started, and I don't think walking away sounds right.[/quote]
That's exactly what everyone is talking about. We don't have any way to clean this up. Bush is vetoing the bill because it doesn't fall into suit with his ideas which, considering this is his second term and seventh year in office, he should be at least attempting to criticize. But the war in Iraq was his dream and aspiration for his presidency, he wanted to go there and like magic take the entire country. What he doesn't realize is that his name isn't Eisenhower, MacArthur, or Grant, and he is not a brilliant military strategist. he didn't count on the on the intensity of the religious conflict in Asia, nor that war could possibly be hard to win for such a great nation. But when you send a combined force of 200,000 into such a large, unfamiliar place things don't always go as planned or as assumed. Bush has the mindset of Dr. Evil, where the weakest of his force is so ridiculously superior to the enemy that it will just be a ****ing walk in the park. Well, it's not. War is hell, war is not easy, and war needs a much better strategy than "Well, uhhhhh, GO GET 'EM!". It doesn't work that way, and hasn't since the dawn of civilization.

[visualkei]

[quote name='Morpheus']When, when, when did this ever happen? The American people have no say in war declaration or troop movement.[/quote]

You know, what I meant was that Congress voted for the war. And since Congress is supposed to represent the American people, I made that statement. If each and every single American had a direct say in war declaration or troop movement and every other single thing, considering our size, we would have a very inefficient government.

[QUOTE]That's exactly what everyone is talking about. We don't have any way to clean this up. Bush is vetoing the bill because it doesn't fall into suit with his ideas which, considering this is his second term and seventh year in office, he should be at least attempting to criticize. But the war in Iraq was his dream and aspiration for his presidency, he wanted to go there and like magic take the entire country..... [/QUOTE]

You're going on about what you think is Bush's dream and aspirations. As for me, I don't have that assumption or view his veto-ing in that way. You would be easier to understand if you didn't "explain" it to me through a rant.

[Starwind]

I guess the big point here is that we really don't have business in Iraq anymore. Bush has brought himself a groupof proverbial Nostra-dumbasses in on his "Iraq study groups", all of which have thse crazy ideas about what it'll take to end the war there. Bottom line is that were not really fighting a war there anymore. The whole time I was there we simply did the same menial tasks day in and day out.

Again, it felt more like were colonizing this nation. We went on patrols all day long and manned security check points, you know, the ones that get blown up on the news all the time. We're at a point where we either need to start packing it up or get one hell of a good battle plan.

Despite his claims to the Texas air guard, Bush is not, nor has he ever been, in my eyes, a soldier. As such, he has no idea what he's doing to those of us who get stranded there. There even starting to extend tours now to 15 months instead of 12 months which irritates me just a little bit.

I don't care who anymore, but someone needs to act out against him before we lose anymore soldiers out there. The hardest thing you can have to do in you military career is tell someone (mother, father, brother, Sister, wife, husband, child) that there (mother, father, brother, Sister, wife, husband, child) is dead.

I knew alot of people who have gone there and won't be coming back. A very good friend of mine was lost there. And like he was rubbing it in my face, Bush came out on TV and said that He and his wife suffer just as much as we do. Mother ****er, who does he think he is!

Sorry, kinda drew off there. Anyway, I'm all for liberating an oppressed nation. I'm all for fighting for liberty and freedom, but what the hell are we doing in Iraq anymore, other then dieing. I still have nightmares and a head full of ugly memories and this punk in office thinks he knows whats best. Or even has a clue as to what's actually happening in that hell hole.

It's time the troops stood up on this one, because I'm not the only one who's against the war anymore. Like I said, anyone who's been there knows what's really going on.

They voted, they established a government, we got Saddam, we got his kids, we got Zarqauwi, we trained there military, what else does he think we can do?

[Retribution]

[quote name='indifference][COLOR=DarkRed']DB can't even vote yet and speaking out doesn't make a difference when someone like Bush refuses to accept the decision of the rest of the government. All the speaking in the world can't stop the president from being a jackass and vetoing the decision to withdraw.Why give DB a hard time when the true problem is what you just stated? What annoys me is when people get on others cases about not being more vocal, especially when they don't even have the right to vote yet. DB can shout all he wants and argue his points all he wants and the stupid GOP and Bush don't give a damn.[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]It's the principle of resistance. I'm well aware he cannot vote, I know he will have next to no impact on the state of affairs. But it is the idea of active disapproval, the concept of disapproval, the principle of disapproval. I would hope you would speak out against something negative, even if it had no bearing on the end result.

[quote name='2007DigitalBoy][COLOR=DarkOrange']Okay. That's bull. I'm sorry, but just because I was born in America and happen to be alive now while this is an issue, I am automatically to blame for it?[/COLOR][/quote]
No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is: Through silence you tacitly support. You say "I don't care," which to those in power means "What you're doing currently must not be so bad".

[QUOTE]So your saying that, my uninvolvement IS, in fact, involvement. That i am absolutely on a side, no matter what? That because one person isn't making a difference, he's automatically making things worse?

I don't understand this opinion at all. In fact, I'd go so far as to call you an idiot for even having this opinion. I do not consent to the actions of our government, I think I made that pretty clear, but I'm not jumping to me feet to fight a losing battle with the rest of you guys.[/QUOTE]
I'm glad you don't consent, but through not disapproving/caring, you're just enabling the current state of affairs to continue. And why not fight a losing battle? Why not fight out of principle? Surely if we only fought when we thought we could win, things would be greatly different today.

[quote name='ForgotteÑ-HerÖ][COLOR=DimGray']Even if DB could vote and rise up with opinion, would it matter? I can't vote neither but I already know I can't make an impact. The president doesn't listen to the common people. Hell, just look at the protests. Bush doesn't care. [/COLOR][/quote]
The reason people like Bush get into office is because of apathy. It's because people give up on politics, because people think they can't change the system. The system IS you. The government IS you. It's made up of everyday people like you and I. We all play a very active role in the government.

[QUOTE][COLOR=Blue]Retribution here's a question for you. Are you making an impact on the president. I think that answer is clear. Don't say anything until you speak out and make a difference to Bush.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
It's not whether or not I'm having an impact. It's that I'm not supporting, that I'm resisting. If all protesters thought "I'm just one more person, what does it matter?" No one would show up to protest. But with all those individual people, then you have something powerful. While I'm not changing policy, I am trying to. I'm not resigning myself to the idea "Oh well, I guess that's life".

I guess I feel frustrated that today's youth feel they un-empowered. Youth have made up some of the most powerful movements, sometimes when they were too young to vote. The US Civil Rights Movement, for instance, was largely supported by young people.

I don't [i]think[/i] I said "If you're not with us you're against us" and I apologize if you took me to mean that. I mean to say... if you're not saying "That's not right," then at the very least you're not doing anything to change it. And yes, people without a vote can inspire change.

Sorry for the rambling/rant.[/size]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]Well, let me say two things, either of which is a reason for the same thing.

One, is that I feel really torn about this. You see, I used to be the kind of person who was uproarious and strongly believing. I was the guy yelling 'down with bush!' and stuff. but what's this? What are us rebels even doing? I mean, we don't even know what we're fighting against. there's so much underlying ******** and so many secrets, I mean how do we proceed? It's not like there's organized resistence or something, or at least not a big enough one to make a difference. Not to mention half the little bastards complaining about Bush are just being fashionable. The minute it was cool to make fun of Bush, people were all over it.

Two, when I look around me i see people who don't give a ****. No matter how well-versed I've made myself in politics, it's never helped me in life. It's never made me money or friends, it's never got me forward in society, and that rebellious pride i was so fond of was washed away when I had to watch people who have no idea what they're talk about feel important for being outspoken. Not to mention I've been yelled at so many times by other kids my age just for having the standpoint I do. People think I'M stupid because I think that, you know, just maybe there's a massive conspiracy right in front of our freaking eyes.

That kind of drama is too much for a person as depressed as i am. I don't need worrying about politics to be another straw on my back. And really, I'd be lying if I said it wasn't. I'm about 2 steps away from being the guy with a sign around my neck saying 'The End is Near.' As far as I'm concerned, the world is gunna end within the next 6 years, and then i'm ****ing done with all this stuff. I plan to worry as little as possible about things that don't effec me during that time.[/COLOR]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']Congratulations. People like you are the reason we're still in Iraq. You see, apathy towards government is equivalent to tacit consent to government actions. If you don't speak out against it, then you've also got a blame to shoulder.[/size][/quote]I know you already responded to the others, but telling teenagers who openly admit that they no longer care, something I would imagine in part is due to feeling powerless to really make a difference, is not exactly going to inspire them to want to feel involved. Because in the end, people like 2007DigitalBoy are not the reason we are in Iraq. It's placing blame on someone who really isn't to blame. We are there because those officials we elected to office made that decision. A decision that is quickly becoming one that the general population no longer supports.

I could understand your argument a bit better perhaps if he was a grown adult who could vote and had a better opportunity to make a difference. But even if youths can speak out, in the end those in charge make their choices regardless of what the youth says or thinks. [QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]I guess I feel frustrated that today's youth feel they un-empowered. Youth have made up some of the most powerful movements, sometimes when they were too young to vote. The US Civil Rights Movement, for instance, was largely supported by young people.

I don't [i]think[/i] I said "If you're not with us you're against us" and I apologize if you took me to mean that. I mean to say... if you're not saying "That's not right," then at the very least you're not doing anything to change it. And yes, people without a vote can inspire change.

Sorry for the rambling/rant.[/size][/QUOTE]But that's just it Retribution, telling the youth that it's [I]their fault[/I] we are in Iraq is far from helping them to feel empowered or that they can make a difference. It's making them feel like the older generation is blaming them for problems and issues that have been around long before they were even born. The current issue may have happened while 2007DigitalBoy was alive, but that region has had serious issues for a very, very long time.

Also some of you are forgetting the sheer opposition those who did not approve of the war got from their fellow intolerant Americans when we first went over to Iraq. Even here in Utah, rallies where others gathered to protest and speak out against the war when it first began were literally attacked by other Americans who were for it. It got ugly on the University campus close to where I live as people bought eggs and showed up for the sole purpose of egging those who had gathered, attacking them for not approving of the war. Requiring the law to get involved to avoid a riot.

Things like this are bound to make anyone feel like giving up and walking away since it's intimidating to have an opinion, voice it and be attacked by others for daring to think different.

As for the actual topic. I wish they would pull out since I was never really for it to begin with. And I am sorry to hear that it was vetoed. Even if the timing is off, we still need to quit trying to police other countries.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Aaryanna_Mom']Because in the end, people like 2007DigitalBoy are not the reason we are in Iraq.[/quote]
[size=1]To be technical, people like DB [i]are[/i] the reason. People who think they're powerless. People who think democracy is a useless enterprise. People who think protest bears no fruit. I mean, if you want to play semantics, I never mentioned his age in my opening post... I just criticized his mentality. And really, that's the biggest thing about it. I don't care if he's 10 or 50, apathy towards the government is a horrible thing.

[QUOTE]But that's just it Retribution, telling the youth that it's [I]their fault[/I] we are in Iraq is far from helping them to feel empowered or that they can make a difference. It's making them feel like the older generation is blaming them for problems and issues that have been around long before they were even born. The current issue may have happened while 2007DigitalBoy was alive, but that region has had serious issues for a very, very long time.[/QUOTE]
I never said it was his fault. I said that silence is a tacit affirmation to the government that they're doing things right. And in that respect, I guess anyone who didn't say "Hey, why invade Iraq?" is at least in part to blame.

[QUOTE]Also some of you are forgetting the sheer opposition those who did not approve of the war got from their fellow intolerant Americans when we first went over to Iraq. Even here in Utah, rallies where others gathered to protest and speak out against the war when it first began were literally attacked by other Americans who were for it. It got ugly on the University campus close to where I live as people bought eggs and showed up for the sole purpose of egging those who had gathered, attacking them for not approving of the war. Requiring the law to get involved to avoid a riot.[/QUOTE]
The threat of unpopularity should not deter anyone. Again, I point to the Civil Rights Movement and the protesters who utterly disregarded their personal wellbeing to protest. If we are afraid of being [to the point of silence/inaction] hated or hurt, then why bother standing for your opinion?

[QUOTE]Things like this are bound to make anyone feel like giving up and walking away since it's intimidating to have an opinion, voice it and be attacked by others for daring to think different.[/QUOTE]
Very true, but that doesn't excuse people to just take the path of least resistance.

Perhaps I mean to capture the spirit of civil disobedience and I'm just not communicating that well enough?[/size]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]To be technical, people like DB [i]are[/i] the reason. People who think they're powerless. People who think democracy is a useless enterprise. People who think protest bears no fruit. I mean, if you want to play semantics, I never mentioned his age in my opening post... I just criticized his mentality. And really, that's the biggest thing about it. I don't care if he's 10 or 50, apathy towards the government is a horrible thing.


I never said it was his fault. I said that silence is a tacit affirmation to the government that they're doing things right. And in that respect, I guess anyone who didn't say "Hey, why invade Iraq?" is at least in part to blame.


The threat of unpopularity should not deter anyone. Again, I point to the Civil Rights Movement and the protesters who utterly disregarded their personal wellbeing to protest. If we are afraid of being hated or hurt, then why bother standing for your opinion?


Very true, but that doesn't excuse people to just take the path of least resistance.

Perhaps I mean to capture the spirit of civil disobedience and I'm just not communicating that well enough?[/size][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]First of all, did you even read my last post? And second, holy crap, where the hell have you even [i]been[/i] the course of this 'war'?![/COLOR]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]That's really the weakest rebuttal to inaction ever. The threat of unpopularity should not deter anyone. Again, I point to the Civil Rights Movement and the protesters who utterly disregarded their personal wellbeing to protest. If we are afraid of being hated or hurt, then why bother standing for your opinion?


Very true, but that doesn't excuse people to just take the path of least resistance.

Perhaps I mean to capture the spirit of civil disobedience and I'm just not communicating that well enough?[/size][/QUOTE]I disagree, not everyone is able to stand up to others openly mocking them or threatening to do horrible things to them. I was trying to point out how such a thing makes it harder for people to want to fight for what they believe in.

And who are we to judge what is and isn't an excuse? And path of least resistance? Things aren't always that simple. Not everyone can devote their time to fighting for what they believe in. And on some level it is unfair to expect everyone to be passionate about the government all the time. I understand what you are saying, but it still comes across as blaming people when we can't prove that if those who were indifferent actually weren't would have made a difference in the long run.

In the end I think you are reading too much into DB's teenage angst if you will. ;)

[Retribution]

[quote name='Aaryanna_Mom']I disagree, not everyone is able to stand up to others openly mocking them or threatening to do horrible things to them. I was trying to point out how such a thing makes it harder for people to want to fight for what they believe in.[/quote]
[size=1]I guess that's the disappointing thing. I wish people would stand up for what they believe in, despite adversity.

[QUOTE]Not everyone can devote their time to fighting for what they believe in. And on some level it is unfair to expect everyone to be passionate about the government all the time.[/QUOTE]
I hear you, but [i]not even half of America votes in the Presidential election.[/i] It doesn't take radical activism to register and cast a ballot.[/size]

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]To be technical, people like DB [i]are[/i] the reason. People who think they're powerless. People who think democracy is a useless enterprise. People who think protest bears no fruit. I mean, if you want to play semantics, I never mentioned his age in my opening post... I just criticized his mentality. And really, that's the biggest thing about it. I don't care if he's 10 or 50, apathy towards the government is a horrible thing.

I never said it was his fault. I said that silence is a tacit affirmation to the government that they're doing things right. And in that respect, I guess anyone who didn't say "Hey, why invade Iraq?" is at least in part to blame.

[/size][/QUOTE]

[color=dimgray] I get what you're saying, but you can't expect everyone to be politically active. I'm strongly against things such as compulsory voting and etc., because people who don't care enough to act don't deserve to make an impact on our politics.

That may have come off as too strong, but it's not good to force someone to act on their beliefs. Oftentimes they won't care enough to research what they're talking about and will simply follow the path they've been accustomed to. [/color]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]I guess that's the disappointing thing. I wish people would stand up for what they believe in, despite adversity.


I hear you, but [i]not even half of America votes in the Presidential election.[/i] It doesn't take radical activism to register and cast a ballot.[/size][/QUOTE]I wish it as well, but it's not always a good thing for some people, especially if you are in a family that is very divided when it comes to political issues. ;) Believe me, political stances can tear a family apart if you let it. Also, it is sad that so many people do not even bother to vote. And I'll admit that it is annoying to hear some of them whine and complain and yet they don't even try to be a part of the process. :rolleyes:

I just try to save my getting on their case until they are a little older and can actually vote before I tell them to put a sock in it. ;)