What kinds of threads are and are not appropriate for the Adventure Square?

[Gavin]

[size=1]Alright, seeing as that's on of the topics that the "[B]I'm a little confused[/B]" thread spun off into, I've launched it as a separate thread so we can keep the original on topic for what it was meant to discuss.

Personally I think there's a lot of room for interpretation as to what appropriate is, as different people are going to have different opinions of what appropriate means. RPGs like Kill Adam pretty much redefined, or at least modernised how we view cursing and violence in RPGs, or at least brought them to a higher plateau than they had been previously, and yet there were concerns it was not appropriate for OB. In the end, we adapted and both people and the writing grew as a result.

As we found out also, people have different opinions of what fun means, some see fun as being a well laid out, well written RPG brimming with detail and drama, others seem it as short quick bursts of creative mirth and sometimes those two viewpoints collide.

I really do hope this thread actually proves beneficial to everyone, as as far as I'm concerned, this bad feeling going around the Arena has been there way too long to be good for anyone.[/size]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]I think it's not fair to seperate them. It should be okay for there to be both rps with huge backstory and plot construction as well as more loose and free ones. The only thing quality should be judged on is in posts. We obviously don't need one-liners and such crap, but it's not like every post needs to dump a boat on you.

Descriminating the type of rp that's allowed is ignorant. Saying that there's no place for a less developed rp on Otakuboards is like saying 'we don't want you here.' There is no harm done by these rps. It's absolute ignorance to deny them a place on our boards. [/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]I definitely agree with you, and I think it's a shame that this kind of mutual exclusivity seems to exist between short bursts of creative work and longer, more detailed and more planned RPGs if they're of relatively the same quality. Obviously the longer the work, usually the more quality that goes into it.[/SIZE]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='2007DigitalBoy'][COLOR="DarkOrange"]I think it's not fair to seperate them. It should be okay for there to be both rps with huge backstory and plot construction as well as more loose and free ones. The only thing quality should be judged on is in posts. We obviously don't need one-liners and such crap, but it's not like every post needs to dump a boat on you.

Descriminating the type of rp that's allowed is ignorant. Saying that there's no place for a less developed rp on Otakuboards is like saying 'we don't want you here.' There is no harm done by these rps. It's absolute ignorance to deny them a place on our boards. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]What exactly do you mean when you call such a policy "ignorant?"

And on a subject that's not semantics, there has to be [i]some[/i] level of discrimination, or we'd quickly fall back into the era of "You say a word, I say a word." There just has to be some level of quality control. How much is debatable, but it's needed.

You claim to not allow discrimination based on type of RP, and yet you want to ban the type of RP that allows one liners, or even calls for them? That's the exact sort of discrimination you're saying we should get rid of.

I should also point out the not all of our rules are based on harm. Posting in 5 year old RPGs (or regular threads, unless that's changed) doesn't harm anything, but gravedigging still isn't allowed. Posting an one-sentence long favorites thread doesn't hurt anything, but it's still now allowed.[/color]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Post quality is all over Otakuboards, and it is in some way what holds the board together. It's the one golden rule everyone follows that truly makes OB the place it is - a place of intelligent discussion. By no means would I suggest that we diminish the post quality.

The issue I speak of is the quality of story for RPs. While still remaining in the boundaries of post quality, I think any kind of rp should be allowed.[/COLOR]

[Shy]

[size=1]Obviously we all want RPGs to maintain a certain quality on OB. I think projects like Panopticon/Silver One/etc. make this site special; but I don't want things to get to a point where if an RPG isn't on that level it's considered 'spam.' OB has all kinds of writers, so we need to be respectful of that when creating and enforcing our rules.

Also, I think it's important that The Square remain open to new ideas. There is obviously a demand for non-RPG games like OB Survivor and Clandestine Clues, so until we get a Games forum I see no reason they can't co-exist here with traditional RPGs. In the past I know I've been too harsh in enforcing these things, so I'm not trying to attack anyone in particular when I ask the mods to 'lighten up' on this point.

After all, it's always been the innovative and groundbreaking projects (RPGs or not) that keep me coming back to this place after all of these years.

-Shy[/size]

[James]

[color=#606060]Basically I agree with Shy.

I think that Adventure Square is an "RPG" location but our definition of an RPG should be loosely defined. Does it need a sign-up thread? No. Does it need a deep backstory? No.

Kill Adam had very complicated characters, but the story was shallow as hell. It wasn't so much about an epic story as it was about dialogue and character relations. That was the core of the RPG - not the violence or the story as such.

I think there are probably limits and unfortunately with RPGs and "story-based" threads, it's often a taste thing...one person can see something and think it's spam and someone else can think it's the funniest thing they've ever read. There's no accounting for taste, you know?

We can probably "officially" broaden the limits on RPGs and Games (perhaps we should return to Games & Stories afterall?) and we can just encompass everything with that.

I have told the Moderators to "lighten up" and for the most part I think everyone has kept to that. Sometimes the message doesn't get through on the first try though.

So yeah, I do agree with Shy really. We should not be too rigid in how we define collaborative works like RPGs. RPGs can take many forms and there are many types of collaborative creative writing ideas that aren't RPGs but aren't necessarily fit for Anthology either.

Maybe Anthology should only be for solo work or pre-written group work and Adventure Square should be for ALL collaborative storytelling and game-type threads. I still sort of feel that caption games and stuff should remain in OL (since OL really covers their definition), but yeah...that's always going to be interpreted differently by different people.[/color]

[Sandy]

As for the matter of [B]Clandestine Clues[/B], I want to say this: even though it's not an RPG by my definition, since it lacks the actual [I]role[/I]playing element, it does have a background story of sorts to it, and the players are actually playing the roles of "OB detectives". So I don't have a problem with it being located at the Adventure Square. Actually, I'm kinda proud that Clurr decided to put that sort of a brilliant new game in there, instead of for example OL, to which it could've fitted just as well.

The same goes for the [B]Final Quest For Glory 2[/B]. In the beginning it was a loose cannon, where everybody posted anything they liked, but it had certain structure to it, certain [I]motivation[/I] behind it, something which helped to keep it at bay. Now it has mostly found it's shape, and people are still enjoying it.

So in my opinion the Adventure Square has been very open to new ideas and concepts, but one cannot expect [I]everything[/I] to get through there. I personally don't want to see it become a playground for threads based solely on the idea of "let's see what comes of this, just post whatever you want". Roleplaying here is already a risky business as it is, you never know wether or not your thread is going to succeed or not. There's no need to take additional risks like that, since the probability of free posting turning into a spam is very high in this place, no matter how "quality boards" we consider ourselves.

As a moderator of the Adventure Square, I really want to encourage people to test their ideas and bring new type of threads there. However, if you're thinking something really drastic, which would change the whole definition of the Adventure Square, you might want to check your idea first. Arena Underground is the perfect place to do that, I might add.

[Aberinkula]

[quote name='Sandy']
However, if you're thinking something really drastic, which would change the whole definition of the Adventure Square, you might want to check your idea first. Arena Underground is the perfect place to do that, I might add.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Navy"]That is a great idea, Sandy proves a point. In fact I put one of my ideas in just today!

But I think that even if something doesn't have a back story, it can live. Invertebrate's have no backbone, yet they can still move! Se what I mean?[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Navy"]I think that RPGs shouldn't be discriminated, if they become spam, then you should use the judgment that is moderation.[/COLOR]
[quote name='James']So yeah, I do agree with Shy really. We should not be too rigid in how we define collaborative works like RPGs. RPGs can take many forms and there are many types of collaborative creative writing ideas that aren't RPGs but aren't necessarily fit for Anthology either.[/quote]

[COLOR="Navy"]Viola! That's a perfect example of what the Adventure square should be like![/COLOR]

[Charles]

Basically, I feel that this "backstory" rule is rubbish. It's probably one of the most arbitrary, strange rules I have ever read.

It's a good thing that the Adventure Square mods weren't at my home when I was watching Mission Impossible 3 because the opening of the movie begins with the plot in progress, moves to a cliffhanger and then goes back to show the viewer what lead up to the opening event. Had the Adventure Square mods had their finger on my DVD power button, I would have never known what would have happened.

So, here is my opinion: This is OtakuBoards. This is not an official place of business, or a cultural epicenter where everything needs to be classical literature (but oh wait, not all of that has a "backstory" either). It's not some super serious rocket science either where everything needs these huge discussions and we need not be totally wary over silly RPGs. Let's stop being so uptight and forcing some arbitrary "quality" rules down peoples' throats.

I say that posting in Adventure Square should be a fun, harmonious process. I say that if I want to post a creative story I should be able to do so without including a bunch of notes or pleading to moderators who are never going to listen to me because of their personal preferences. If someone doesn't like the same kind of writing as I do then they simply don't have to play the game. There's no need to overreact as if the game will bring down an entire forum.

We should not discriminate against members because of their personal tastes in fun as long as they are abiding by the rules. Taste is taste and anyone who knows anything about writing knows how versatile the art is. Not everything has an immediately apparent backstory. Anyone who walked into a creative writing classroom and critiqued others' stories on that point would be laughed out of the room.

In summary, people should be able to post as they please as long as they are not in any serious violation of the rules.

So, in closing, I think that James' post in here helps and I hope that things are really cleared up all the way soon because with spammy games like Survivor being allowed and other RPGs being so heavily criticized, I'm still way confused. lol

[Sandy]

There were a lot of other issues in your latest attempt for an RPG than the missing back story, and you know it, Charles. I'm not even going to go there anymore, since I said everything I wanted already in the other thread here.

But your last sentence alone proves that the two of us have very different points-of-view: "In summary, people should be able to [B]post as they please[/B] as long as they are not in any [B]serious[/B] violation of the rules."

So now you're calling for artistic freedom? First it was just about fun and elevating the spirit of OB, and now suddenly your whole [I]freedom of expression[/I] is threatened? I just don't get it how you fail to see what complete freedom does to a thread...

I can tell you it isn't a pretty sight.

Anyway, I'm sure that your Padded Room Party could have it's place in OB [I]somewhere[/I], but that place is not Adventure Square in it's current form. Maybe you should opt to revive Newbie Lounge? You know, [I]the one you pulled down[/I]?

Because that thread would fit there like a monkey to the zoo.

[Semjaza]

I'm kind of confused by these rules myself. I don't RP much, but I do read the things.

For example, [U][URL="http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=57066&page=7"]Survivor 4 pretty much debased into an almost completely irrelevant conversation[/URL][/U] that could have been handled in a chat room or an AIM conversation. No mod told anyone in there to stop, to stay on topic or even to [I]actually role play[/I]. It's been like this for quite a lot of posts now and is still open.

I could see how it would be fine if this was in the Underground, but it wasn't. It was in the main RPing section of the site: Adventure Square.

That is OK, but making an actual role playing game that does follow the numerous sticky thread rules is [I]not[/I] OK? I don't understand when and how these rules are even applied sometimes.

[Charles]

[quote name='Sandy']There were a lot of other issues in your latest attempt for an RPG than the missing back story, and you know it, Charles. I'm not even going to go there anymore, since I said everything I wanted already in the other thread here.

But your last sentence alone proves that the two of us have very different points-of-view: "In summary, people should be able to [B]post as they please[/B] as long as they are not in any [B]serious[/B] violation of the rules."

So now you're calling for artistic freedom? First it was just about fun and elevating the spirit of OB, and now suddenly your whole [I]freedom of expression[/I] is threatened? I just don't get it how you fail to see what complete freedom does to a thread...

I can tell you it isn't a pretty sight.

Anyway, I'm sure that your Padded Room Party could have it's place in OB [I]somewhere[/I], but that place is not Adventure Square in it's current form. Maybe you should opt to revive Newbie Lounge? You know, [I]the one you pulled down[/I]?

Because that thread would fit there like a monkey to the zoo.[/QUOTE]

I'm not that deep, brother, but thanks.

All I'm calling for is a major chill pill, some rules that make sense, and a little consistency in how they're applied. There seems to be a fundamental difference between what James is saying here and what your position has been. Or at least there appears to be, so I'm just as lost as I was before.

As a side note, I do not appreciate this continued hostile tone in your posts, Sandy. All through this ordeal I have tried my best to be polite to you no matter how much your methods puzzle me. Let's make that treatment reciprocal. I mean, as Semjaza said, your Survivor RPG violates everything you've been arguing against and I haven't stepped in and closed that, so I think I'm being more than fair here. Do I need to link you to specific posts in that thread to prove my point? There are many. I could probably list [I]dozens[/I] that should go in an Underground thread and I [i]dare[/i] anyone to dispute that. I'll have a field day with them. lol

I just want a clear set of rules to be posted up once and for all. I wouldn't mind writing them myself, since I'm no stranger to writing OB FAQ and rules pages. I'll even do it for free as long as members will finally have rules that make some sense. Backstories? lol

And are you saying that Adventure Square is like the Newbie Lounge? In this case, I'd agree with you because neither makes much sense to me at this point! heh

[Japan]

[quote name='Sandy'][FONT=Century Gothic]Well, you could've fooled me. ;D ... Wait, you [I]did[/I] fool me with that!

It wasn't a clear victory, but you won anyway. I'd be a poor, poor judge if I couldn't make such choises and instead let everybody win every time. There's nothing else to it, and Rach should know it.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkRed"] That's how all the posts are from what I could tell from the Survivor thread.

Very ironic when the closed RPG that Charlie started has the same type of posts in length. No matter how spontaneous the posts were in the padded room party, at least they were fun to read. Not only that, every single post contributed to the storyline. Does Survivor fit that criteria? I doubt it[/COLOR]

[Guest The Blue Jihad]

[quote name='Sandy']But your last sentence alone proves that the two of us have very different points-of-view: "In summary, people should be able to [B]post as they please[/B] as long as they are not in any [B]serious[/B] violation of the rules."

So now you're calling for artistic freedom? First it was just about fun and elevating the spirit of OB, and now suddenly your whole [I]freedom of expression[/I] is threatened? I just don't get it how you fail to see what complete freedom does to a thread...[/quote]

The beast smells weakness. What manner of man-child are you that reads that sentence and sees a call for complete freedom? What confused, distracted, doomed soul acts with such disregard for reason, and with such crazed, fanatical love for hyperbole? You gesture wildly. The beast laughs at you. You claim pure intentions? Snickers from the shadows. You sit here and talk about the rules...and yet it is clear, in both the light and in the darkness, that your own house of worship is built upon a bed of lies. Your actions betray you, young one. And your diseased tongue announces it to the world.

Tread lightly. You now walk in the valley of the shadow of death. And the light has faded.

[Guest Copycatalyst]

The types of threads which are to be allowed at Adventure Square are those types of which Sandy decides to allow to be there without any true use nor understanding of the rules thereof. Moreover, it is under Sandy's sole and own jurisdiction, with no consideration of the rules and consideration thereof of only Sandy's own personal, conceited choice, to choose of which thread to close or of which thread not to close.

[Aberinkula]

[quote name='Sandy']

Anyway, I'm sure that your Padded Room Party could have it's place in OB [I]somewhere[/I], but that place is not Adventure Square in it's current form. Maybe you should opt to revive Newbie Lounge? You know, [I]the one you pulled down[/I]?

Because that thread would fit there like a monkey to the zoo.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Navy"]If I recall, the [B]Newbie Lounge[/B] was a failure. Wouldn't that just make the situation worse? Plus from what I read, the Padded Room Party's newest installment had hardly anything problematic with it. Unless I read the wrong way.[/COLOR]

[quote name='Charles']I mean, as Semjaza said, your Survivor RPG violates everything you've been arguing against and I haven't stepped in and closed that, so I think I'm being more than fair here.[/quote]

[COLOR="Navy"]You don't need to worry about that. [B]Des[/B] closed the [B]Otakuboards Survivor 4[/B] thread. So I guess that was justified. So in reality this argument brought more bad than good. Am I right?

I'm all for fixing the problem, but obvioulsy the maid blew the dirt out of the vacuum and into the house once more.[/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Premonition'][COLOR="Navy"]If I recall, the [B]Newbie Lounge[/B] was a failure. Wouldn't that just make the situation worse? Plus from what I read, the Padded Room Party's newest installment had hardly anything problematic with it. Unless I read the wrong way.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Failure is perhaps an inaccurate word. It's level of quality/spam was simply too low/high to be considered appropriate for OtakuBoards/anywhere else.[/SIZE]

[TheShinje]

[quote name='Premonition'][COLOR="Navy"]If I recall, the [B]Newbie Lounge[/B] was a failure. Wouldn't that just make the situation worse? Plus from what I read, the Padded Room Party's newest installment had hardly anything problematic with it. Unless I read the wrong way.[/COLOR]
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Sandy was being sarcastic.

I reckon there should be a place for RP's like the iPRP! I quite liked the idea that everyone was allowed to join in on the fun and add their little bit to the growing story. The posts before the closure had structure, they had a direction. The penguins were more than just some random spammy nonsense, they served a point.

If there was a re-writing of the rules in the wake of all this, I suggest that there be an allowance for threads like iPRP! RP's that don't require a signup should not need a forced and irrelevant signup for want of a place here.

I enjoy the games like FQFG2, and the picture caption games that don't require a long, lenghty signup in order to play. It is a reflection on my general gaming attitudes. I prefer games where you just throw the disk in and start playing. Which is why I still keep my Amiga500 ready.

A little less legalism, a little more Ultra-Fun, please. :)

[John]

I don't think anyone's made this argument yet, and I think it would really go a ways to reveal just what degree of strictness the Adventure Square rules should take:

[IMG]http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7843/prplh2.jpg[/IMG]

33,858 little bitty pixels. [I]If you don't like a particular thread, 33,858 pixels is all you have to avoid to stay happy.[/I]

[quote name='Charles']It's a good thing that the Adventure Square mods weren't at my home when I was watching Mission Impossible 3 because the opening of the movie begins with the plot in progress, moves to a cliffhanger and then goes back to show the viewer what lead up to the opening event. Had the Adventure Square mods had their finger on my DVD power button, I would have never known what would have happened.[/quote] Not a great argument, since any sane person would've done the same. Friends don't let friends watch Mission Impossible sequels.

[Gavin]

[quote name='John']Friends don't let friends watch Mission Impossible sequels.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Come on John, seriously tell me you didn't laugh when Cruise missed that bridge jump in III when a taller man would have cleared it.[/SIZE]

[Rachmaninoff]

I'm going to have to go with the stance that so long as it's got relatively good content it should be allowed. And by relative I mean decent post quality and not some list that says back story required, blah, blah, blah. There are lots of different threads that are fun that aren't really an RPG. Some have already been mentioned here.

And as irritating as Des's joke closure of Survivor was, it does bring home a point.[B] It's not fun to have an enjoyable thread closed for a reason that isn't clear. [/B] So I really think there needs to be more clarity or rather more leniency towards things that aren't in a rigid RPG format.

I like the Adventure Square, in fact I tend to spend most of my time there and I know I would like to see a lot more in there. You look at the adventure Inn and other than a few projects everything is an elaborate RPG. And what makes ones like Survivor more fun is they aren't a RPG in the same sense. So I say we don't shut them down without giving them more of a chance first.

So that's my two cents. I agree with having a more flexible idea of what's acceptable in the Adventure Square.

[James]

[color=#606060]Man, the drama! Some of you have far too much time on your hands.

I think there's one bottom line here. A Moderator made a decision and someone else didn't agree with it. The Moderator has provided his reasoning and there's still disagreement.

In a case where this happens, I am happy to step in and make a decision. I'm sorry I haven't yet, but I haven't had much access to the 'net in the last few days - I've been ridiculously busy in the "real world", lol.

I do want to make one point though. Whether or not I decide that Sandy is right or wrong - whether or not I agree with what he did...there are two things to remember. One, Moderators do have to have some discretion - otherwise their jobs would be impossible. Two, every single decision doesn't need a public debate that gets blown way out of proportion. Seriously, some of us are adults...and this stuff is just a pain in the *** to read constantly.

Apart from all of this I can see that there is some misunderstanding about what is and isn't allowed in Adventure Square. I will go over this myself and I will post an announcement and, if needed, a new sticky thread to clarify my position.

No matter how clear the rules are though, I do think there will always be disagreements. This doesn't mean there's some massive conspiracy or some issue with the rules themselves - it just simply means that people have differing opinions. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just a matter of handling these issues in the right way - preferably, via PM with the relevant staff member and myself. In future I'm going to be a lot tighter with allowing these drama filled orgies on OB, I think. Nobody needs them and they rarely achieve anything of substance.[/color]