Pro Life or Pro Choice? Mature discussions please

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]Well I don't think this has been asked in a while so I decided to revive it. I wasn't thinking much about the issue until the other day when I was on my way to work after dropping my daughter off at Day Care. I found myself behind this one car that said: You can't be Catholic and Pro Abortion.

Well sorry, but I was raised Catholic... not following as devoutly as I should, but that's not the point. I'm very pro-choice and I don't consider pro-choice to be the same as pro-abortion because I would never get one myself and I believe that if a friend of mine had come to me telling me that she was thinking of getting an abortion I'd try to talk her out of it. But in the end I'd [hopefully] realize that the decision was hers to make, not mine.

Abortion is a right and I believe that legal abortions should be protected instead of taken away. So, who's with me and who's against me?[/color][/font]

[OMNOMNOMALY]

[FONT="Georgia"]I agree completely with abortion; I am pro-choice. I'm not religious in the least so I really have no conflicting thoughts about it, I just think that it's a right that all women should have access too.

However, it should be said that abortion is [I]not[/I] a method of birth control. It is a last resort, and I think that it should really only be considered in the unfortunate scenarios where say, for example, a woman is raped. No woman should be forced to carry the child of her rapist. Or, alternately, a careful couple happens to be the unfortunate 1% or so who have the condom or pill be ineffective, and really just can't have a baby at this time and place in their lives, nor can the woman take the time off to have it and then go through adoption things.

I don't think that a woman who is just having unprotected sex all over the place and then having several abortions really should be allowed to have it, because that's just plain irresponsible. I mean, I'm not saying that the government should be allowed to peek in on our sex lives, but if a woman has had several, they should really look into it. That's what I think, anyway.[/FONT]

[Retribution]

[size=1]These boards are more liberal than they used to be... I don't think the debate will be that firey this time around.

I'm personally pro-choice, but I'm against partial birth abortion. That truly is infanticide in my opinion. The line is pretty blurry between fetus and human baby. I put it somewhere at the end of the second trimester unless the pregnancy will result in the death of both baby and mother.

I think that as abortion or prenancy prevention (morning after pill) become less brutal and graphic, the opposition to it will die. The current opposition really feeds off of those terrible images of fetuses with their arms chopped off or whatever, which really sways opinion. Once the shock games are off the table, I don't think people will be as receptive to the message.[/size]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Since i am not a woman and therefor will personally never become pregnant, this arguement has little effect on me. Before you go saying that I might get a girl pregnant or something... well, first I'm going to laugh at the idea that you think that will ever happen, but then I'd explain that if I had a girlfriend and she DID get pregnant, i would leave it totally up to her, and not criticize any decision she makes.

I guess you could say I'm pro-choice, but then i want to think i'm more pro not-caring or simply apathetic toward the subject entirely. How you want to go about handling your troubles is your own decision - wether you want to keep the child or be rid of it; more power to you.[/COLOR]

[Sara]

[color=#db2007]Pro-choice!=Pro-abortion.[/color]

[Break]

[quote name='Sara'][color=#db2007]Pro-choice!=Pro-abortion.[/color][/QUOTE]

I thought so too...

Anyways, I am pro-choice, pro-life, whatever. I think any reason for abortion is in reason, as long as it is before the fetus looks like a baby. Or starts to. Then it starts to become a tad gross..

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='Sara'][color=#db2007]Pro-choice!=Pro-abortion.[/color][/QUOTE]As well as the stance that a woman should have complete control over her fertility and pregnancy. Control over their reproductive rights, which includes access to sexual education; access to safe and legal abortion, contraception, and fertility treatments.

Something that in the end I am for. Pro-Choice that is. The main attention getter may be the right to have an abortion. But it's definately more than just that. [/COLOR]

[TheShinje]

I am pro life.

[quote=retribution][size=1]I'm personally pro-choice, but I'm against partial birth abortion. That truly is infanticide in my opinion. The line is pretty blurry between fetus and human baby. I put it somewhere at the end of the second trimester unless the pregnancy will result in the death of both baby and mother.[/size]
[/quote]

Now this, I do not understand. Why is it more acceptable to abort a child that, in it's present state looks like a fish, than it is to abort a child that has taken on the more human look? Both have the potential to become human beings, regardless the stage of development, and this is why I view both as bad as each other.

Even without a "sanctity of life" religious conviction, I don't understand why it is accpetable to abort some child's life at all. Ther emust be something I'm missing here.

[Break]

[quote name='Jeremiah']Now this, I do not understand. Why is it more acceptable to abort a child that, in it's present state looks like a fish, than it is to abort a child that has taken on the more human look? Both have the potential to become human beings, regardless the stage of development, and this is why I view both as bad as each other.

Even without a "sanctity of life" religious conviction, I don't understand why it is accpetable to abort some child's life at all. Ther emust be something I'm missing here.[/QUOTE]

It's called freedom to choose whether you want a child or not. People have been doing it for thousands and thousands of years. Just because the issue sparks up more in modern times, it does not mean it is unacceptable. I suppose just because it has been happening for ages doesn't make it acceptable either.

It is more acceptable to abort a child in the first stages of pregnancy because there is a point at which the fetus sort of "becomes" human. Don't go mad, but there is a period of time when it isn't properly developed. Surely you'd rather kill a tiny speck of things that, as far as I know, doesn't know what the hell is going on, than what is, essentially, a human in its infancy? If you had the choice that is.

It's basically a woman's right to choose. Is it that hard to understand? Just like anyone has the right to make decisions that would change their life forever, i.e. having a baby.

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Jeremiah']Even without a "sanctity of life" religious conviction, I don't understand why it is accpetable to abort some child's life at all. There must be something I'm missing here.[/QUOTE]Freedom of choice. Even if we disagree with it. In the end each person has to make that choice for themselves.

It's something that I disagree with when the religion I belong to makes statements like this:[I] Human life is a sacred gift from God. Elective abortion for personal or social convenience is contrary to the will and the commandments of God. Church members who submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions may lose their membership in the Church.[/I]

And yet they turn around and support what the government is doing:

[INDENT]About seven years ago, in response to parents' complaints, lawmakers decided to give parents and communities control over sex education instruction in Utah.

The law allowed school boards, with parental involvement, to choose human sexuality materials stricter than state guidelines. The spectrum of sex education in Utah schools now includes abstinence on one end and adoption on the other.

Many high schools cannot teach birth control by use of contraceptives unless parents give written permission.[/INDENT]

I won't bother to give the details on everything since it's a constant battle around here. But in my opinion, you can't take away people's right to make informed choices. Even if you don't agree with it. And it's far from right to punish members who do get an abortion after reducing options that would better educate them on how to avoid getting pregnant in the first place. Most of the time kids are only taught abstinence since people think that their kids won't sleep around. Very naive.

As for adults. Where do we draw the line when it comes to telling them what they can and cannot do? I disagree with it, but I am not comfortable with thinking I am correct in taking that choice away from a total stranger.

[Flo]

[SIZE="1"][COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]Pro-choice. I strongly support abortion is consideration that we're human and at times we may mess up. That drunken one night stand may not be one of those you can just turn aside. I think that if a woman gets pregent then its in her own morals to decide weither or not to keep the baby. And I find a small bit of comfert in that if I ever mess up bad enough that I get pregent before I want to then theres a place that I can go.

There are some crimamstances that I then oppose of from abortion. For example, one of my friends has been trying to get pregent for a second time after good results with her first son. However, this time the artifical insemination has reseulted in her having twins now. This isn't an uncommon result, but she began to freak out and wanted an abortion.

SHe knew my thoughts on what she should do and in turn after thinking about it she realized that it wasn't the right thing for her to do. I mean if your trying to have children and, like her, if you got twins, or a girl and wanted a boy then that's really no reason to get an abortion. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[quote name='Jeremiah']Even without a "sanctity of life" religious conviction, I don't understand why it is accpetable to abort some child's life at all. Ther emust be something I'm missing here.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]In my religion, death is nothing to be feared, and if anything, the release of a chld from life before it ever has to step foot in this world is a kindness. Are my religious practices forsaken in favor of others?[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Jeremiah']Now this, I do not understand. Why is it more acceptable to abort a child that, in it's present state looks like a fish, than it is to abort a child that has taken on the more human look? Both have the potential to become human beings, regardless the stage of development, and this is why I view both as bad as each other.[/QUOTE]
[size=1]An entity with the potential to become X does not mean it is therefore equal in importance to X. You wouldn’t treat someone with the [i]potential[/i] to become your country’s leader with the same respect as you would the [i]current[/i] leader of your country, would you? Certainly not.

[QUOTE]Even without a "sanctity of life" religious conviction, I don't understand why it is accpetable to abort some child's life at all. Ther emust be something I'm missing here.[/QUOTE]
In my opinion, there is this balance of power that plays out during a pregnancy. At conception, the zygote has almost no power relative to the mother. But as the pregnancy progresses, the fetus gains importance while the mother’s freedom of choice loses that importance. While that mother’s importance is greater than the fetus, she should have the right for a legal abortion. But once that fetus breaks even and exceeds the mother, there should no longer be a right for legal abortion. I know that’s extremely conceptual, and I personally believe what I outlined above should take into consideration certain developmental landmarks (significant brain activity, for instance).

Something I’d like to say in general. I don’t understand people who are pro-life except in cases of rape or incest. It seems to me that if you believe abortion is tantamount to murdering an infant, it should make no difference what the circumstances surround the conditions for pregnancy.[/size]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Tempest'][SIZE="1"][COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]Pro-choice. I strongly support abortion is consideration that we're human and at times we may mess up. That drunken one night stand may not be one of those you can just turn aside. I think that if a woman gets pregent then its in her own morals to decide weither or not to keep the baby. And I find a small bit of comfert in that if I ever mess up bad enough that I get pregent before I want to then theres a place that I can go.

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]That's the kind of thing that always makes me question my support for pro-choice/abortion. Why should a future human die because two people acted irresponsibly and can't take the consequences? The point of making mistakes is to deal with the aftermath, and it's wholly possible that some people won't even take precautions if abortion is legalized.

If a woman who has sex responsibly and by some slim chance gets pregnant, then I believe it's within her moral scope to have an abortion. But when a bunch of stupid teenagers get drunk and decide to have sex and get pregnant, it just pisses me off. The only thing stopping me from supporting fetal rights in these kind of cases is the kind of life the baby could have in the hands of a 16-year-old mother.[/font]

[Sara]

[quote name='Retribution'][size=1]Something I?d like to say in general. I don?t understand people who are pro-life except in cases of rape or incest. It seems to me that if you believe abortion is tantamount to murdering an infant, it should make no difference what the circumstances surround the conditions for pregnancy.[/size][/QUOTE][color=#db2007]Growing up in a small, highly conservative Christian community (where almost [i]everyone[/i] favors the above), I can tell you what I've noticed about this.

You're right. If it were really about murdering an infant, circumstances surrounding the pregnancy wouldn't make a difference.

It comes down to this, really: In the minds of many (perhaps subconsiously, perhaps not), carrying, giving birth, and caring for the infant once it is born [b]are considered punishment[/b]. They are [i]consequences.[/i] Because women [i]aren't supposed to have sex[/i] for anything but procreational purposes.

If they have sex outside the bounds of marriage, without intent to procreate, they are sluts. They are whores, they are easy, they are selfish, they are lustful, and they are [i]sinful[/i]. If, at this time, they conceive accidently, well... [i]good[/i]. That's what sex is for. That's why women are [i]supposed[/i] to have sex! It's what they deserve.

Because regarding women, sex is a sin, [i][b]and if women have sex they deserve the punishment that goes with it[/b][/i]. It's the same reason the pill and Plan B are derided?because they largely remove the threat of unwanted pregancy, which "frees" women to have "consequence-free" sex. [i]Which is not okay.[/i]

With pregnancy in cases of rape and incest, people typically concede that, [i]well, I guess it's [b]not[/b] the woman's fault. Mostly.[/i] So, since it's not their [i]fault[/i] that they became pregnant, they shouldn't necessariy be punished for it. Thus, abortion is okay.[/color]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Sara'][color=#db2007]Growing up in a small, highly conservative Christian community (where almost [i]everyone[/i] favors the above), I can tell you what I've noticed about this.

It comes down to this, really: In the minds of many (perhaps subconsiously, perhaps not), carrying, giving birth, and caring for the infant once it is born [b]are considered punishment[/b]. They are [i]consequences.[/i] Because women [i]aren't supposed to have sex[/i] for anything but procreational purposes. [/color][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]I have a hard time believing that that mindset exists anywhere other than very small and conservative towns. Even though the whole 'women having more than one sexual partner makes the woman a whore or a slut when it's okay for men' mindset still exists, I think the pregnancy as punishment mindset has faded for the majority of people.

But I won't deny your argument, because it's still very valid in the most basic level: "...and if women have sex they deserve the punishment that goes with it." Sex control has more or less become accepted, so if you put in the word 'irresponsibly' after 'sex', then you probably hit the underlying moral in the whole debate.

In addition, though, I think for many people it boils down to free will, which is what western culture is largely about. When a woman becomes pregnant because she decides to have sex with another man, it's her decision. Therefore, it's her problem when she gets pregnant.

Rape is another matter, since the women did not ever decided to have sex with the rapist, and was forced. And incest, well. It boils down to whether people want more mentally handicapped kids in the world.

Pretty much the same concept as Sara's point, but it's probably the argument most supported by people because they don't want to come off as radical, uber-conservative Christians. [/font]

[Sara]

[quote name='Lunox'][color=dimgray] I have a hard time believing that that mindset exists anywhere other than very small and conservative towns.

Pretty much the same concept as Sara's point, but it's probably the argument most supported by people because they don't want to come off as radical, uber-conservative Christians.
[/color][/QUOTE][color=#db2007]I wish I could believe the same thing.

My city isn't actually that small (it's close to a hundred thousand people), but the mindset didn't necessarily exist across the city so much as it did in the demographic of people who taught at and attended the parochial schools I attended. My high school, including faculty and staff, was probably a bit less than 250 people strong. But that's two hundred fifty people who live in their own, überChristian bubble, spending eight or more hours a day interacting with other überconservative people who support and reinforce their beliefs?and who have other families, friends, and church members who believe largely the same things.

I'd say there are probably similar pockets of people almost anywhere you could go.

And while I don't think that I've ever heard anyone say "pregnancy is punishment" in so many words (because pregnancy is actually a wonderful, blessed, miraculous gift from God), I can't count the number of times I've heard "Well, it's her fault, and those are the consequences," and probably more damning things as well.

If you actually approached almost anyone and said, "So, you consider pregnancy a just punishment for having sex?" they'd immediately shy away from the word [i]punishment[/i]... but how they consciously word their belief doesn't change what it comes down to at the end of the day.[/color]

[Sazumechan]

I was also raised Catholic but I believe that even if I was raised with no religion at all I would still be against abortion.I understand it's your right to do what you think is best but is abortion really the way to go? Could'nt you put the baby up for adoption?I just dont get how people can throw someone else's life away without giving them a chance.

[eleanor]

[quote name='Sara'][color=#db2007]
And while I don't think that I've ever heard anyone say "pregnancy is punishment" in so many words (because pregnancy is actually a wonderful, blessed, miraculous gift from God), I can't count the number of times I've heard "Well, it's her fault, and those are the consequences," and probably more damning things as well.

If you actually approached almost anyone and said, "So, you consider pregnancy a just punishment for having sex?" they'd immediately shy away from the word [i]punishment[/i]... but how they consciously word their belief doesn't change what it comes down to at the end of the day.[/color][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"] That was part of what I was trying to say in my post. While pregnancy as punishment [i]sounds[/i] ridiculous, it's the underlying moral. But it doesn't mean it's the only thing going on in people's heads. Morals change, and even if this Christian-inspired is the root, it will soon fade away and the whole thing will be replaced with something like dealing with your own consequences. The fact that this change is probably only being made because we don't want to sound like hard ***** doesn't make it less significant.

Also, the whole thing is so sexist. Somehow it's the woman's fault that she got pregnant, not the guy. I hate it when people become blithering idiots about it, saying stuff like "she seduced ___" or whatever, because it's seriously a bunch of BS.[/font]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Lunox'][color=dimgray]Also, the whole thing is so sexist. Somehow it's the woman's fault that she got pregnant, not the guy. I hate it when people become blithering idiots about it, saying stuff like "she seduced ___" or whatever, because it's seriously a bunch of BS.[/color][/QUOTE]
[size=1]Yeah, it is, I totally agree. But those are the social norms for whatever reason. I know fathers who have given their sons high fives after walking in on them having sex wtih their girlfriend, which says a lot. :p

Maybe because women have traditionally been considered the more virtuous and pure of the two sexes? That idea has been with us for quite a while, and I'm assuming this sexism is a manifestation of that expectation for women to be of higher moral fiber than men.[/size]

[Break]

[quote name='Retribution'][size=1]Maybe because women have traditionally been considered the more virtuous and pure of the two sexes? That idea has been with us for quite a while, and I'm assuming this sexism is a manifestation of that expectation for women to be of higher moral fiber than men.[/size][/QUOTE]

It hasn't been with us for very long at all. In religion women were always seen as the tempters, the seducers, etc. Traditionally, women have been considered not as virtuous as men - it was up to men to be the more virtuous of the two to save both from sin.

Anyway... the whole issue [b]is[/b] rather sexist, I do agree. Lunox, you seem to be pretty hardline though - do you really think teenagers should have to live with the consequences of a stupid, drunken mistake for the rest of their lives? Forget about the child being in the hands of a minor for the second - what about the parent? Are you denouncing any person who makes mistakes...?

[Retribution]

[quote name='Break']It hasn't been with us for very long at all. In religion women were always seen as the tempters, the seducers, etc. Traditionally, women have been considered not as virtuous as men - it was up to men to be the more virtuous of the two to save both from sin.[/QUOTE]
[size=1]Not entirely true. Ancient Rome, for instance, had these girls known as Vestal Virgins. They were to remain celibate and maintain the sacred fire of Vesta. There were no male priests in Roman religion (why? there were purer than men...). During the Renaissance, physical beauty was equated with virtue (a throwback to the Greeks). Women were generally thought to be purer of heart than men… hence the phrase “The fairer sex”. These are just some throwaway examples, and if you dig, you’ll see that there was a heavy expectation for them to remain chaste until marriage.

[QUOTE]Forget about the child being in the hands of a minor for the second - what about the parent? Are you denouncing any person who makes mistakes...?[/QUOTE]
I would assume her position would be to put the child up for adoption.[/size]

[pooperson]

[SIZE="1"][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Mm. I'm a major conservatron & am against abortion at all costs. [B]Pro Life[/B], FTW.
However, I do believe, of course, that if the woman's life is in danger, it is acceptable, but only as a last resort.
When I'm more awake & thinking, I'll elaborate.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="Navy"]I'm pro-choice myslef. But for retri and break. you all knoq about yin and yang right? But did you knoe that the dark side is represented by women, and the light side by men. Interesting if I do say so myself, but I feel that the men should be the dark side.

But I do feel that you shouldn't have an abortion if the fetus is too developed. I don't know much about abortion itself, so I really can't explain things right.

Thank god I'm methodist, I can't stand catholics. Oi, they just annoy me. [/COLOR]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Break']
Anyway... the whole issue [b]is[/b] rather sexist, I do agree. Lunox, you seem to be pretty hardline though - do you really think teenagers should have to live with the consequences of a stupid, drunken mistake for the rest of their lives? Forget about the child being in the hands of a minor for the second - what about the parent? Are you denouncing any person who makes mistakes...?[/QUOTE]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]I did come on pretty strong, lol. But that's the thing, it's a stupid, drunken mistake. If they get pregnant and have an abortion, that should be their only break, [i]ever[/i]. Allowing people to have multiple abortions because of irresponsible mistakes would be mindblowingly stupid.

Abortion is a serious thing. You are killing a future life, a possible human being. And while I may be pro-choice, it's ridiculous that teenagers don't use protection even when the have an active sex life.

So I'm not denouncing teenagers who have sex responsibly and happen to get pregnant. I'm denouncing the stupid ones who don't take any precaution with it.[/FONT]