Pro Life or Pro Choice? Mature discussions please

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[quote name='Retribution'][size=1]Not entirely true. Ancient Rome, for instance, had these girls known as Vestal Virgins. They were to remain celibate and maintain the sacred fire of Vesta. There were no male priests in Roman religion (why? there were purer than men...).[/size][/quote]

Yeah, but I'm talking about monotheism, rather than religions circulating around the Roman pantheon of gods. Christianity, mainly. Sorry I didn't make that clear. :animeswea

[quote][size=1][i]During the Renaissance, physical beauty was equated with virtue (a throwback to the Greeks). Women were generally thought to be purer of heart than men… hence the phrase “The fairer sex”. These are just some throwaway examples, and if you dig, you’ll see that there was a heavy expectation for them to remain chaste until marriage.[/size][/i][/quote]

Of course, this is true too. But then why was there such a [i]heavy[/i] expectation for them to remain chaste? Perhaps society was trying to say something (I do not believe in it myself at all). It was the Original Sin which probably prompted the Christian preachers, the more sexist, in the first place to spread the idea of women as "trouble". Perhaps it's just men being bitter, who knows!

There definitely are two sides to this thing, though; throughout the ages there have been, as you rightly say, cultures that value their women as pure, and other cultures that see them as impure - sometimes even the same culture sees women as either sluts or virgins. This was a heavy theme of the Renaissance, in fact ;)

[quote][size=1][i]I would assume her position would be to put the child up for adoption.[/size][/i][/QUOTE]

I never gave that a thought actually - how silly of me! Well then, by all means, she can do that.

[quote name='Lunox'][color=dimgray] I did come on pretty strong, lol. But that's the thing, it's a stupid, drunken mistake. If they get pregnant and have an abortion, that should be their only break, [i]ever[/i]. Allowing people to have multiple abortions because of irresponsible mistakes would be mindblowingly stupid.[/color][/QUOTE]

No sweat lol. I definitely disagree with multiple abortions. One mistake is enough to learn from, I will give you that. When a girl starts getting abortions here, there and everywhere as a form of contraception, it does start to get stupid. Then it makes me thinkr, "Should abortions be available in the first place?" Because, inevitably, they will be used more and more frequently, and more casually as well. So, I suppose my stance is rather confused on this subject: while completely for choice, I do wonder how extreme it will be in years to come.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Premonition'][COLOR="Navy"]I'm pro-choice myslef. But for retri and break. you all knoq about yin and yang right? But did you knoe that the dark side is represented by women, and the light side by men. Interesting if I do say so myself, but I feel that the men should be the dark side.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[size=1]Common misconception: Yin and Yang are good and evil. It's simply untrue.

[QUOTE][COLOR="Navy"]Thank god I'm methodist, I can't stand catholics. Oi, they just annoy me. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
You sound ridiculous, just so you know.[/size]

[Aberinkula]

[quote name='Retribution'][size=1]
You sound ridiculous, just so you know.[/size][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Navy"]And just so you know, I don't give a damn. Good and light, dark and evil, I consider both the same. What's so ridiculous about saying catholic annoy me? I just used freedom of speech, is that so wrong as to call me ridiculous? Hey, I'm just using my rights. If women have the choice to go through abortion, I have the right to speak my mind. Anyways, why waste your time with me when there more important things going on in this thread.

You shouldn't waste your time with someone sooo ridiculous, just so you know.[/COLOR]

[pooperson]

[quote name='Retribution'][size=1]You sound ridiculous, just so you know.[/size][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]I agree. My goodness. I'm a Lutheran, but I believe some Catholic doctrine. A religion does not define a person. Way to label.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Aberinkula]

[quote name='taperson'][SIZE="1"][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]I agree. My goodness. I'm a Lutheran, but I believe some Catholic doctrine. A religion does not define a person. Way to label.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Navy"]I didn't say I don't believe some things they do, I'm just saying they can get annoying. They overreact sometimes. God what's the matter with you people?![/COLOR]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Premonition'][COLOR="Navy"]They overreact sometimes. God what's the matter with you people?![/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson]We're reading your naive and pseudo-intellectual posts and coming away with headaches.

Headaches make OBers grumpy.[/color]

[Sara]

[quote name='Lunox'][color=dimgray] That was part of what I was trying to say in my post. While pregnancy as punishment [i]sounds[/i] ridiculous, it's the underlying moral. [/color][/QUOTE][color=#db2007]Yeah, sorry. I was trying to clarify my original statement, not disagree with you.

[quote=Premonition]you all knoq about yin and yang right? But did you knoe that the dark side is represented by women, and the light side by men.

And just so you know, I don't give a damn. Good and light, dark and evil, I consider both the same.[/quote]Congratulations. You have appropriated an "exotic" spiritual concept, misconstrued it for your own ease-of-comprehension, and thrown it to the wayside.

Honestly, Prem, you baffle me. Most of the time you simply agree with whatever other people are saying. When you [i]do[/i]strike out on your own, you make vague, confusing, or simply [i]antagonising[/i] posts and then get defensive and deride people for disagreeing with you. [/color]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='Premonition'][COLOR="Navy"]God what's the matter with you people?![/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]They're just using freedom of speech.[/color]

[Guest The Blue Jihad]

My thoughts on the matter:

Abortion is right and I believe that abortions should be encouraged. So, who's with me and who's going to get aborted?

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="navy"]Who said I'm trying to be intellectual DeathKnight? [/COLOR]

[QUOTE]Honestly, Prem, you baffle me. Most of the time you simply agree with whatever other people are saying. When you dostrike out on your own, you make vague, confusing, or simply antagonising posts and then get defensive and deride people for disagreeing with you.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Navy"]Ugh. I'm just getting pissed when people say things like this:[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]You sound ridiculous, just so you know.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="navy"]And obviously statements like that make this OBer angry. That's coming off as being rude. Now if you disagree with me that's fine, but you shouldn't insult me at the same time. [/COLOR]

[Guest The Blue Jihad]

[quote name='Premonition'][COLOR=navy]And obviously statements like that make this OBer angry. That's coming off as being rude. Now if you disagree with me that's fine, but you shouldn't insult me at the same time. [/COLOR][/quote]

It's your fault he's grumpy. Maybe he should just have aborted you.

[Sara]

[quote name='Premonition'][COLOR="navy"]And obviously statements like that make this OBer angry. That's coming off as being rude. Now if you disagree with me that's fine, but you shouldn't insult me at the same time. [/COLOR][/QUOTE][color=#db2007]Well, sweeping non sequitur statements about your "not being able to stand" members of a large religion?while in the same breath thanking God that you're a member of a [i]slightly different branch[/i] of the religion?do sound pretty ridiculous.

Retri wasn't attacking, or even directly insulting you. He was pointing out that what you were saying didn't make a lot of sense. Not in the [i]kindest[/i] way, but he certainly wasn't being uncivil.[/color]

[Aberinkula]

[quote name='Sara'][color=#db2007]Well, sweeping non sequitur statements about your "not being able to stand" members of a large religion?while in the same breath thanking God that you're a member of a [i]slightly different branch[/i] of the religion?do sound pretty ridiculous.

Retri wasn't attacking, or even directly insulting you. He was pointing out that what you were saying didn't make a lot of sense. Not in the [i]kindest[/i] way, but he certainly wasn't being uncivil.[/color][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Navy"]There, you said the statements sounded ridiculous, you never called me ridiculous directly. Now that I'm fine with, it's just Retrbutuion sounded like a jerk to me at the time.

But now I'm just putting word in the fire, maybe I should get out the extinguisher eh? So let's end this conversation because it will get to out of hand. even thought it probably has already. I do apologize to you all for ny hostility I have caused. And I apologize for being very stupid and ignorant.[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Premonition'][COLOR="Navy"]There, you said the statements sounded ridiculous, you never called me ridiculous directly. Now that I'm fine with, it's just Retrbutuion sounded like a jerk to me at the time.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[size=1]I apologize if I sounded like a jerk to you, but to be frank, I will not apologize for what I said. Stereotyping and sweeping generalizations are imprudent and dubious at best. I also wonder how much you actually know about Catholics.

Now uh... what were we debating about before this? lol[/size]

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[quote name='Retribution'][size=1]I apologize if I sounded like a jerk to you, but to be frank, I will not apologize for what I said. Stereotyping and sweeping generalizations are imprudent and dubious at best. I also wonder how much you actually know about Catholics.

Now uh... what were we debating about before this? lol[/size][/QUOTE]

True that.

I think it was abortion.

Has anyone ever read [i]Mysoginies[/i] by Joan Smith? There is a very good essay about abortion in there. She's witty, and her argument makes sense. I am not usually a reader of feminist works, but I thought it would be interesting. If anyone can find it, have a read.

[Fyxe]

[size=1]Well then. I'm pro-choice.

The one thing that I think is funny about most abortion debates is that people call abortion "murder," when really, in most cases, the fetus is aborted before it developes any human characteristics. Especially when it doesn't have a brain or heart. Yet, do we call women who are menstruating murderers? Because really, they are ejecting a potential life source. Just like abortion.

;)[/size]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Premonition'][COLOR="Navy"]

Thank god I'm methodist, I can't stand catholics. Oi, they just annoy me. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]Well ignorant people annoy me... reguardless of religion.
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[quote name='Fyxe'][size=1]Well then. I'm pro-choice.

The one thing that I think is funny about most abortion debates is that people call abortion "murder," when really, in most cases, the fetus is aborted before it developes any human characteristics. Especially when it doesn't have a brain or heart. Yet, do we call women who are menstruating murderers? Because really, they are ejecting a potential life source. Just like abortion.

;)[/size][/QUOTE]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]And with that same thought in mind should male mastrubation be considered reckless abandonment since the sperm wasn't actively seeking an egg?

On a more serious note. It's interesting that you brought that up because many people who are anti-Abortion are also anti-birth control because of the misconception that what birthcontrol does is kill a fertilized egg when in reality what happens is birth control keeps the egg from being fertilized in the first place. The way I see it is if you're against abortion then why not support a method that will reduce the need?

Finally to address the comment that was made about being pregnant and being in labor is punishment for having sex. Sure some aspects of pregnancy and birth aren't that fun, but that pregnancy tummy makes a great arm rest and they give you great drugs when you're in labor. So it's really not that bad.[/color][/font]

[Break]

[quote name='Fyxe'][size=1]Yet, do we call women who are menstruating murderers? Because really, they are ejecting a potential life source. Just like abortion.

;)[/size][/QUOTE]

I never thought of that. Good call! The stress I think is on [i]potential[/i]: it is not yet a human life, but a lot of people don't believe that. I have heard some people say that as soon as first cell divides into two the fetus is a human. I'm not sure about that; all the [i]potential[/i] to be a human is there, yes, but is it [i]actually[/i] a human?

[Cyriel]

[SIZE="1"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][quote name='ChibiHorsewoman']many people who are anti-Abortion are also anti-birth control because of the misconception that what birthcontrol does is kill a fertilized egg when in reality what happens is birth control keeps the egg from being fertilized in the first place.[/quote]After reading some very 'interesting' posts, I think the only thing I'd agree on at the moment is that people definitely need to be educated before they make decisions about these things. There are too many assumptions and misconceptions that people have that lead to really ignorant decisions. I think that sometimes it's ridiculous when people think that any sort of sex education other than abstinence will lead directly to sex. Even though I believe in abstinence, fear is not the way to go...
[quote name='Chibihorsewoman']And with that same thought in mind should male mastrubation be considered reckless abandonment since the sperm wasn't actively seeking an egg?[/quote]Would men be able to survive this if it was considered reckless abandonment? How sad for guys then, because women can kind of just do that whenever they want, lol. Wow, this sounds horrible =_=;;

I'm not really an expert in the arguments for and against abortion, so I was just wondering if there's a difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion? I know that most of the time they're lumped together, but personally I think there should be a separation. I mean, isn't there a chance that someone will agree that women should have the right to decide, but not necessarily agree with abortion itself? Sorry if that's a stupid question - I just don't know too much about all of it.
[QUOTE]Yet, do we call women who are menstruating murderers? Because really, they are ejecting a potential life source. Just like abortion.[/QUOTE]Between menstruation and abortion though, I think there's definitely a solid difference. Menstruation isn't something that women can control - it's a natural cycle that we go through (unless you're on regular birth control of course, which is also another decision you'd have to make). Abortion, on the other hand, is definitely something that an individual decides to carry out with an intent to kill/erase/whatever. I don't know if the two can really be compared.
[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Fyxe]

[quote name='Cyriel'][SIZE="1"][COLOR="DarkGreen"]
Between menstruation and abortion though, I think there's definitely a solid difference. Menstruation isn't something that women can control - it's a natural cycle that we go through (unless you're on regular birth control of course, which is also another decision you'd have to make). Abortion, on the other hand, is definitely something that an individual decides to carry out with an intent to kill/erase/whatever. I don't know if the two can really be compared.
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[size=1]Don't get me wrong, I know full well that they aren't the same thing. I was simply pointing out that they are similar, and have the same result: getting rid of that potential life.

(Man, I wish we could decide whether or not to have our periods.:shifty:)[/size]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Fyxe'][size=1]
(Man, I wish we could decide whether or not to have our periods.:shifty:)[/size][/QUOTE]


[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]If you take one of the many birth control pills out there and skip the placebo pills you can avoid having a period all together. :angel: Also some of the other options such as implants have about the same effect. You may experiance some spotting, but nothing too major.

This reminds me that I need birth control.... a 6 day period is just too much for me[/color][/font]

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]Prem, you might want to look away now, because I'm Catholic and you might find my opinion annoying...

Well personally I'm against abortion in pretty much all cases, as to me from the moment of conception it?s a human life with the same rights anyone else has, and termination is simply a nicer way of saying execution.

The only case where I could accept abortion would be if the life of the child and the mother are in serious danger of being lost if the pregnancy comes to full term. Incest pregnancies are kind of undecided for me, because I've got neighbours who're second cousins and happily married with kids and grandkids. If we're talking about immediate family where it's one of the parents and one of the kids, well it's sick, but I still feel it's execution for the unborn for no crime of their own.

Abortion in the case of rape has never sounded right either to me to be honest, it sounds a little more like punishing the child for the sins/crimes of the father, which doesn't at all sit well with me as as far as I'm concerned, the child has done nothing wrong and doesn't deserve to die just because the mother doesn't want to keep it. I suppose then we're into a whole different kettle of fish, but that's for another post.

Despite the whole "ban" on contraceptives, I think even the Church's highest and most vocal know that people are going to use them, and that if using a condom prevents an abortion further down the line, it's the lesser of two evils. Not to get onto the whole "pregnancy is punishment" thing from earlier, but really I'm pretty sure a few doses of the pill and a couple of condoms are going to work out to be significantly cheaper from a financial and emotional point of view than an abortion.

One thing I've found a little weird here is that adoption has only been mentioned in passing once or twice, I mean maybe it's just me, but I know here in Ireland people are having to adopt from abroad because there's not enough Irish kids up for adoption. It seems as valid and secular a decision as abortion, though the obvious financial costs of having the kid and then giving it away must also be taken into consideration.

Just out of curiosity, what does an abortion cost ? And a delivery in a hospital for that matter ? I seriously don't know, so I'm just wondering what the difference between the two it.

In the end, if people are going to keep getting it done, because criminalising it is just going to lead to back alley abortions which are much worse, then I hope they at least come up with some way of killing an unborn child in as humane a way as possible, rather than as convenient a way as possible.

I suppose that gives us about twelve months until the next one. [/SIZE]

[liamc2]

[quote name='Aaryanna_Mom']Freedom of choice. Even if we disagree with it. In the end each person has to make that choice for themselves. [/QUOTE]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="1"]I really don't think anyone could have said it better. We have our views on abortion and when and why it is wrong/why it's not and so on, and the argument seems to go on and around in circles.

In my Human Rights and Ethics class last year, abortion was one of the issues we had to debate on and submit a group essay on. Let me just say, the exact same arguments and statements came up over and over again. Our lecturer [who for once didn't break off onto a "I hate all organised religion and this is why you're all wrong" diatribe] brought up an excellent point that even science can't decide when an unborn child [see zygote to birth] counts as "living." Various faculties and fields disagree on the matter and ultimately it comes down to the decision of the mother. Laws are generally in place to monitor the safety of abortion on behalf of the mother and the child [RU486 anyone? Wait, let's not open that can of worms until I find that article. Pretend there are spoiler tags or something until you can link some evidence] and generally that's as far as I think it should go.

I personally feel that abortion for "convenience sake" [I can see several cringing at that word already] is a [i]bad thing[/i].

As for [b]Sara's[/b] comments on pregnant single women being treated or labeled as "loose" or "sluts," I agree with you that there is a dichotomy when it comes to the pro-life argument, but it differs in extremity depending on situation and circumstance. At this point I feel it's appropriate to say the tried and true generic statement "If people claim to be Christian, then why don't they practice it?"

Those having recreational/unprotected/etc sex should know that one of the consequences of sex [i]is[/i] pregnancy, yes. As young adults [and old, let's not be ageist] are known to be frequently stupid in certain areas of life, pregnancy is a big, very big, emotional and physical thing. There'll always be a huge potential for it to be a life-changing moment, no matter the decision made.

Personally I feel that the major argument is not that someone chooses abortion/life, but that the decision is made with brevity and without respect to the potential of life.

I honestly don't think anyone [other than stereotypical male depiction in popular culture] has ever said, on the subject of pregnancy, "meh, doesn't matter. I'll/you'll just get an abortion."

Such indifference to such an important [follow up] decision [Having sex being the first] just would shock me to the core.

As for sex education in school, I don't see the big deal about it. Obviously it would be considered bad and/or morally corrupt if students were being taught mechanics of copulation and given educational material that involves examples.[ /insert generic immature statement here and move on] I'm pretty sure the sex education classes we were signed up for in school didn't consist of that and, despite it being a Private Catholic school, didn't push a particular religious agenda, quite possibly because of the large "atheist/agnostic" population and the general shift away from any solid religion in the curriculum.

Kids [and yes, you, teenagers] need to know about contraception and possibility of disease [i]and[/i] what sex is biologically for. There's a big difference between talking about protection and telling everyone to sleep around. In Utah [and other conservative homes] parents need to expand on the education received at school. Brushing such things under the carpet isn't going to help in a society that is geared more and more towards personal gratification. It's unfortunate that people view their children's own personal convictions to be so fragile that they need to be sheltered from the world instead of allowing and encouraging them to push it back themselves.. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[Fyxe]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]
Just out of curiosity, what does an abortion cost ? And a delivery in a hospital for that matter ? I seriously don't know, so I'm just wondering what the difference between the two it.
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[size=1]First trimester abortions can cost anywhere from $350 to $700... depending on the method. It can be more expensive, too, if the fetus is more developed. But most clinics refuse to abort a fetus after the first trimester.

I'm not sure about what the cost of a delivery in a hospital is, though. But there is always the cost of the room to add to it.[/size]

[Starfire0567]

I myself am anti-abortion. To me it's murder. Simple as that.