Pro Life or Pro Choice? Mature discussions please

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]I think debating the legality of abortion is a pretty pointless one Crystia, even if it's illegal over here, most people who want them simply nip off into England to have them, sure it's illegal but nobody really stops them. All I meant was that the whole "telling people what to do" sounded a lot like what's legal and illegal according to the letter of the law.

As for pro-lifers ignoring the need for contraception, I don't think I've ever objected to it in an argument before, I may be Catholic but I'm a realist as well and know that contraception as a preventative is better than abortion as a "cure", stitch in time sort of analogy. I'm more than well aware for the need for proper Sex Ed as well, we get next to none in Ireland aside from what's taught in junior science and senior biology, so I'm not disagreeing with you in any way there. Education in my mind is definitely one of the most important aspects of preventing unnecessary abortions rather than making them easier. Kids just don't understand how easy it is to get pregnant from unprotected sex.

In relation to the Holland argument, well to be honest with all that goes on over there, I'm really rather surprised them have such a low abortion rate. That said you are aware that of their use of mobile clinics boats to have the abortions take place out in international waters rather than in Holland itself ? I know it sounds made up, but check out the article [b][url=http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9F02E3D7153BF937A15755C0A9659C8B63]Here[/url][/b] and the organisation [b]Woman on Waves[/b] found [b][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_on_Waves]here[/url][/b]. So I wouldn't be utterly convinced by that statistic to be honest. [/SIZE]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="goldenrod"]Even though I think abortion is wrong, from the standpoint of freedom of choice I am pro-choice. And instead of rehashing what Crystia already said, I'll leave it at that since her views match mine. I don't agree with thinking I have the right to make that decision for someone else. And to be blunt. I know exactly what Crystia is talking about. Rape is far from pretty and though I was too young to end up pregnant. I can easily see how the idea of being forced to carry the child of your attacker would be inhumane. :animedepr[/COLOR]

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[quote name='SunfallE'][COLOR="goldenrod"]I can easily see how the idea of being forced to carry the child of your attacker would be inhumane. :animedepr[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Abortion is the only way out in that particular case. I think I will stick to: it is the woman's choice; it is her, more often than not, who will have to deal with the child the most - so surely from that (almost) fact, she can decide whether or not she [i]wants to be a mother[/i]. It is a life-changing thing.

[Rachmaninoff]

It's really simple in my mind. It's a woman who is pregnant. A woman who has to deal with giving birth as well as raising the kid if she's alone. I'm a guy. So that really leaves me out of the loop other than possibly being a factor in one getting pregnant to begin with. So in the end, it really is[I] her[/I] choice. Not mine.

I'd rather she didn't, and I was even raised with the belief that it's a sin. But still. I'll stick to the stance of not trying to make others choices for them. Even a choice like this. I'm in favor of increasing those choices so abortion becomes the very last one though.

[vegeta rocker]

[quote name='Jeremiah']I am pro life.



Now this, I do not understand. Why is it more acceptable to abort a child that, in it's present state looks like a fish, than it is to abort a child that has taken on the more human look? Both have the potential to become human beings, regardless the stage of development, and this is why I view both as bad as each other.

Even without a "sanctity of life" religious conviction, I don't understand why it is accpetable to abort some child's life at all. Ther emust be something I'm missing here.[/QUOTE]

Its different because at that point the baby's brain develops and it is in essence a person. I also see both as the same though so i see your side.

I however, am Pro Choice.

My body, my right, my freedom.

[sakurasuka]

[SIZE="1"][FONT="Arial"]

This argument really depends on what is more important to each person: The mother's well-being, or the child's.

On one side of the theoretical fence, you could say that the mother has every right to remove her own child as long as it is in her. You can bring up piddly nonsense about trimesters, rape, consequence, etc. but it's still honestly very simple. The mother has a right to remove the unwanted cells from her body. These cells are basically a virus or tumor, if you remove the 'potential for human life' from the equasion. It is a group of cells that are causing swelling, vomiting, and all sorts of things to happen to the mother, from a legal point of view, she has every right to make it stop and remove the source.

On the other side, you have the unborn child. Rather, the fetus. You can say that as long as it doesn't have visual humanistic characteristics, it's not a human. That's a load of tiddlywinks. At moment of conception, it begins its transformation. There is no one point where he or she 'becomes human'. There are only two viable opinions here. Either it becomes human at conception, or birth. If the latter, all forms of abortion are brutal murder in your eyes. There is absolutely no reason to debate this, as people who believe conception is the pivotal moment are NOT going to say that murder is morally right.

As for my opinion, while I hate the idea of abortion and I'm completely morally against it, I can't for the life of me even consider standing up to someone and telling them they're a bad person for it. Everyone has the legal right to make their own decisions, and legally, the fetus isn't a person and has no rights. I refuse to speak out against abortion, as I have no alternatives other than adoption, so for now I'll keep quiet.

In the case of rape. There is absolutely no difference in forced intercourse and drunken stupidity from the eyes of the baby. Those who are against abortion except for in the case of rape are obviously not thinking about the well-being of the child, but punishing the mother for her actions, if you ask me.

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[Retribution]

[quote name='sakurasuka'][SIZE="1"][FONT="Arial"]There are only two viable opinions here. Either it becomes human at conception, or birth. If the latter, all forms of abortion are brutal murder in your eyes. There is absolutely no reason to debate this, as people who believe conception is the pivotal moment are NOT going to say that murder is morally right.[/FONT][/SIZE][/QUOTE]
[size=1]Those are two pretty binary and extreme views of the topic, and I'm not sure it's fair to portray it in those terms.

If you believe life begins at conception, then contraception is only a cut above abortion. This seems like an extreme point of view to me, but perhaps you still ascribe to it.

If you believe life begins at birth, then you support partial-birth abortion. And furthermore, you're saying that the only difference between human and not human is moving from inside to outside of a mother. And I don't think many pro-lifers support that view.

All I'm saying is that there is some validity to the "Where does live begin?" debate. There's certainly shades of grey... does it become human after a fetus develops a brain? What makes a human? It's kinda tough to relegate these complex questions to an either-or scenario.[/size]

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]Many forms of contraception prevent eggs from being fertalized in the first place. Those methods can't be compared to abortion because conception hasn't even happened yet. And, as such, I fully support their use.

As for the debate over when life begins, I'd again go back to my previous post about a zygote possessing all the characteristics of life. By definition, it's just as alive as a newborn is.

Where you get real arguments is in defining when [i]human life[/i] begins. Is a zygote formed at conception human? I believe so due to its genetics matching those of a human. To me, an organism's genes are its defining characteristic, as they contain the information that determines all of its other characteristics. Saying a fetus isn't human until it has the general shape of a baby, or has developed a brain, or whatever else, all seem like very subjective arguments to me. Why is the brain the defining characteristic of a human? Why not the heart, or the liver, or the kidneys, or some other vital organ? All are needed for the continued life of the fetus and I don't see any valid reasoning behind any of them being a human's defining characteristic.

Given the above, the argument about not taking choices away from people doesn't seem valid to me. I'm all for personal liberty but not when it involves killing human life. There are lots of things in life that are painful and traumatizing for people but in no other situation does that give them the right to take another's life to make it stop. If a fetus is indeed human, all it comes down to is killing out of convenience, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy.[/color]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"]Actually Des... At this point I've already stated how I feel on that and in a sense I think we are starting to go in circles. So I see no value in continuing since you and I are not going to agree. My stance is still Pro-Choice. For all the reasons I've mentioned. ;) And I'll just leave it at that.

I do agree with the full support for contraceptives though. Now we just need to finish smacking insurance companies to require them to provide coverage for women who wish to use something like the pill, since many of them still refuse to do so.

That's really my beef over this issue more than anything. Expecting no abortions and yet refusing to make the need for one easier to avoid in the first place.[/COLOR]

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]I wasn't planning on arguing the same points over again either, I just realized I hadn't given my point of view on that particular argument yet. So I figured I'd do so while expanding on why I believe human life begins at conception.[/color]

[The13thMan]

[COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Bleh... i really dislike this whole abortion deal.

I personally am pro choice.

There is no way this will ever be definitively settled because it would require there to be some proof that a fetus has a right to live in the same sense a fully matured person does. No one can ever answer this question because to answer it would require you to be god... to put it plainly. There is no right and wrong unless there is a god. If god does exist then right is whatever the heck the ol' guy says. So... i guess the abortion issue won't be settled until god takes a step on to this earth and tells us personally... but even then i can still see some nonbelievers tell him He's wrong. =D I'd probably be one of 'em. Haha.

I've got more opinions... but after saying all of that i really don't feel like it'd do any good. So F it...

Actually... i do have something else i'd like to bring up. Why is it the woman's right to choose? I mean... i know it's her body and all, but it's still the man's little trooper that made his way through! Should a man have as much say in the matter or less? ...More?

That's all i got.
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[Endymion]

[COLOR="Navy"][SIZE="1"]I'm Pro-Life...with some exceptions.

In the instance of rape or incest, then abortion is a very logical choice. On the other side of the spectrum though...you have girls that use abortion as a form of contraceptive. Oops...I got pregnant again...abortion time. That is definitely not right, and i've had a pro-choicer try to tell me otherwise.

The only other exceptions I would say for an abortion would be 1, it's one of those ladies that pop out another baby every 10 months so they can get another check from the government - I would say such actions would warrant ( I'll probably offend someone with this ) sterilization. You also have the instance when the mother's health is directly affected and will not be able to carry to term.

Other than that...it takes two to tango. My ex thought she was pregnant once and though it was a bit of a shock, I was a bit joyed...bought some baby-sized baseball outfits and such. She was happy I was supportive and would be a father. Sadly, she was just late (a few weeks or something...oddly), and she wasn't.

Anyway, end of my 2 cents for now...[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Juu]

[size=1]Pro-freedom of choice anything.

And I really don't believe in legislatures and bills being passed by small margins of people. So what if 1% more of people are satisfied? 49% of the people are not! And it's even worse considering the 'undecided'-s who haven't been raped or educated yet. [/size]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Why is it the woman's right to choose?[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson]... because it's her body. The guy's "little trooper" making it through isn't really that taxing on the man, he's can be asleep and happily dreaming when his soldiers get through the defensive lines. You know, the rocket's red glare and bombs bursting in air? He isn't involved in that past the euphoria of dropping them off at the front gate to the castle. The entire siege he can't control one way or the other, it's in the hands of his little army.

I think that is a sufficient number of war analogies for reproduction at the moment. [/color]

[Gavin]

[quote name='DeathKnight'][color=crimson]... because it's her body. The guy's "little trooper" making it through isn't really that taxing on the man, he's can be asleep and happily dreaming when his soldiers get through the defensive lines. You know, the rocket's red glare and bombs bursting in air? He isn't involved in that past the euphoria of dropping them off at the front gate to the castle. The entire siege he can't control one way or the other, it's in the hands of his little army.

I think that is a sufficient number of war analogies for reproduction at the moment. [/color][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]For some reason, I got a mental picture of the flag raising scene at Iwo Jima reading that... Even creepier, my birthday is on it's anniversary...[/SIZE]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]For some reason, I got a mental picture of the flag raising scene at Iwo Jima reading that... Even creepier, my birthday is on it's anniversary...[/SIZE][/QUOTE]


[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]Well happy belated birthday Gavin, but your timing is off... the flag raising was [u]prior[/u] to the opening ceromony.

Gah! Now I'm doing it![/color][/font]

[SunfallE]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][COLOR="goldenrod"][quote name='Juuthena'][size=1]Pro-freedom of choice anything.

And I really don't believe in legislatures and bills being passed by small margins of people. So what if 1% more of people are satisfied? 49% of the people are not![B] And it's even worse considering the 'undecided'-s who haven't been raped or educated yet. [/B][/size][/QUOTE]That's so true that it's scary. Usually I just sit back when people go on their little rant of '[I]even if you're raped there's no reason to abort the poor kid[/I]' All the while the thought going though my mind is of course you think that fool. You've never [I]been[/I] raped or assaulted. It's so easy to think that when you've never been put through that [I]hell[/I].

Mind you I'm talking about people who never have had that happen, and though I would never wish it on anyone, it is tempting to tell them to come back and talk to you [I]after [/I]they know what it's like. I'm just glad that I was too young to get pregnant and never had to face that choice. That too would have been [I]hell[/I]. >_< [/COLOR][/FONT]

[Gavin]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman'][color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]Well happy belated birthday Gavin, but your timing is off... the flag raising was [u]prior[/u] to the opening ceromony.

Gah! Now I'm doing it![/color][/font][/QUOTE]

[size=1][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_the_Flag_on_Iwo_Jima[/url]

Not sure what ceremony you're talking about there CHW but the timing seems bang on, February 23rd. That said, I didn't know that particular scene is actually the second flag raising.[/size]

[The13thMan]

[quote name='DeathKnight'][color=crimson]... because it's her body. The guy's "little trooper" making it through isn't really that taxing on the man, he's can be asleep and happily dreaming when his soldiers get through the defensive lines. You know, the rocket's red glare and bombs bursting in air? He isn't involved in that past the euphoria of dropping them off at the front gate to the castle. The entire siege he can't control one way or the other, it's in the hands of his little army.

I think that is a sufficient number of war analogies for reproduction at the moment. [/color][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Yes, i get that point. I mentioned it. Though i think the main point should be that the unborn child is as much the man's as it is the woman's.

Take this case for example: The woman wants an abortion and the man does not. What should happen? Who should have the say? It is her body... she would have to go through the months of bearing the child. Is that enough to give her the right to terminate the child's "life" when the father says otherwise?

The fact that society expects a man to be supportive of whatever the women wants is a little off in my opinion. But only a tiny bit. Don't get me wrong. =D I just think instead of society expecting cooperation it should expect deliberation in this case.


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[Gavin]

[quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Yes, i get that point. I mentioned it. Though i think the main point should be that the unborn child is as much the man's as it is the woman's.

Take this case for example: The woman wants an abortion and the man does not. What should happen? Who should have the say? It is her body... she would have to go through the months of bearing the child. Is that enough to give her the right to terminate the child's "life" when the father says otherwise?

The fact that society expects a man to be supportive of whatever the women wants is a little off in my opinion. But only a tiny bit. Don't get me wrong. =D I just think instead of society expecting cooperation it should expect deliberation in this case. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]While I think you have a fair point 13thMan, most people will just retort that a man doesn't have to deal with nine months of pregnancy, and generally I think most women who have abortions either do so because they're not in a relationship with the unborn's father i.e. a one night stand with repercussions. I'm not agreeing with them, just saying that's the typical response you'll get.[/SIZE]

[IHZ]

I agree too. While I have been a fervent christian for a huge part of my life, I never thought that the choice of one man was to be decided by God. I'm not against the catholic church and I respect everyone who devote their life into their god because it needs courage and lots of faith, but I believe that when a religion is controling your life and worst, your own free will of speech and all of your opinions, it is bad. Because a person should have the right to have his own opinion no matter what religion he believes in. I can't judge Abortion because I don't know enough about how it is done or what kind of sufering one must go through during such an operation, but I agree that it should be taken as a last resort after the person in question had thought her choice very carefully, but in the end it all rsolve around their choices and we cannot really judge them for that if we don't personally know the reason for such an act.

[mangamaniack21]

I'm pro life for a lot of different reasons. One is that i am also a christian, and i belive if a baby is starting to show the early signs of life tha n it shold not be killed. Not unless the father is satan himself, which i highly doubt. But then, if it's some ex-lover that a woman hates at least a baby could be handed over to a foster home or an orphanage, then it would continue to live instead of being brutally murdered. I know whe i grow up, even if i'm scared to have a baby i'l go through with it. Unless it's life-thretening i don't believe abortion should realy take place...

[Retribution]

[quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Yes, i get that point. I mentioned it. Though i think the main point should be that the unborn child is as much the man's as it is the woman's.

Take this case for example: The woman wants an abortion and the man does not. What should happen? Who should have the say? It is her body... she would have to go through the months of bearing the child. Is that enough to give her the right to terminate the child's "life" when the father says otherwise?

The fact that society expects a man to be supportive of whatever the women wants is a little off in my opinion. But only a tiny bit. Don't get me wrong. =D I just think instead of society expecting cooperation it should expect deliberation in this case.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]What about in cases of domestic abuse? Should that woman have to consult a man who is harming her over the fate of his child? And would not that mandatory consultation be perilous for that mother?

I mean it'd be ideal to have a joint decision about it, and that the parents would give equal weight to one another's words, but that's not the case.[/font]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Yes, i get that point. I mentioned it. Though i think the main point should be that the unborn child is as much the man's as it is the woman's. [/color][/font][/quote]

[color=crimson]It's not a matter of "ownership". The contribution of the sperm to creating the child is accepted, it's the fact that past that point it becomes a literal PART of the woman's body that will eventually, if it is allowed and luck graces it, be born as a human infant.

The father's wishes are commonly [i]discussed[/i] and known in most healthy relationships. In cases of rape or abuse I'm not sure where you're coming from.

Rarely a falling out could occur between the father and the mother but I would defer to the mother over the father.[/color]

[quote name='whateveryourstupidSNisthesedays][color=DarkOrange'] What should happen? Who should have the say? It is her body... she would have to go through the months of bearing the child. Is that enough to give her the right to terminate the child's "life" when the father says otherwise?[/quote][/color]

[color=crimson]Yes.[/color]

[mangamaniack21]

I'm pro life for a lot of different reasons. One is that i am also a christian, and i belive if a baby is starting to show the early signs of life tha n it shold not be killed. Not unless the father is satan himself, which i highly doubt. But then, if it's some ex-lover that a woman hates at least a baby could be handed over to a foster home or an orphanage, then it would continue to live instead of being brutally murdered. I know whe i grow up, even if i'm scared to have a baby i'l go through with it. Unless it's life-thretening i don't believe abortion should realy take place...