Pro Life or Pro Choice? Mature discussions please

[Retribution]

[quote name='liamc2'][FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="1"]I really don't think anyone could have said it better. We have our views on abortion and when and why it is wrong/why it's not and so on, and the argument seems to go on and around in circles.[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]
[size=1]This doesn't hold up when pro-lifers truly believe that [i]abortion is tantamount to murdering a newborn.[/i] Just saying that "We all have to eventually respect one another's personal freedoms and let them decide," that's equivalent to saying "Let people kill one another indiscriminately [and without prosecution], we all have personal choice." This argument from the pro-choice just doesn't fly.[/size]

[Aberinkula]

:animesigh[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Prem, you might want to look away now, because I'm Catholic and you might find my opinion annoying...
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="navy"]Didn't I just apologize for my ignorant statements? Let me explain something. Most of my family is Catholic, I chose to be Methodist because my mother is, my Grandma is Catholic. I don't find your opinion annoying Gavin, for Christ's sake can we just move on with our lives? I said they can get annoying sometimes. I didn't say "I hate Catholics with a passion they all annoy me all the time" now did I? Its just that some of them have over reacted toward things when other Christian groups haven't. from what I remember my friend's parents who are Catholic complained about "The DaVinci Code" and there was even something on the news about how it started to enrage some of the Catholic people. I'm sick of explaining this, why can't you just drop it, becaue your just exacerbating the argument.

Anyways back onto the topic...[/COLOR]

[QUOTE] In the end, if people are going to keep getting it done, because criminalising it is just going to lead to back alley abortions which are much worse, then I hope they at least come up with some way of killing an unborn child in as humane a way as possible, rather than as convenient a way as possible.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Navy"]That's probably a better thing to do, maybe the government should spend some time finding other solutions to aborting an unborn child.

Or, if the baby isn't causing any harm to the mother during birth, they can just put it up for adoption. Either way, if I were a mother, I'd find both abortion and adoption a hard choice to make with my child.

I myself don't think it's the most justified thing to do, I've heard about the procedures and I must say it is very disturbing to listen to. But it is a choice after all, and I respect that.

And just so some of you know, I've seen [B]EWTN[/B] (I think that's what it is) and they make some pretty valid arguments on their interviews. That as well as the nun on the channel, god bless her soul. I've always thought nuns were better than priests on every level. Please don't patronze what I just said, I've already had enough of the arguments.[/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Premonition'][COLOR="navy"]Didn't I just apologize for my ignorant statements? Let me explain something. Most of my family is Catholic, I chose to be Methodist because my mother is, my Grandma is Catholic. I don't find your opinion annoying Gavin, for Christ's sake can we just move on with our lives? I said they can get annoying sometimes. I didn't say "I hate Catholics with a passion they all annoy me all the time" now did I? Its just that some of them have over reacted toward things when other Christian groups haven't. from what I remember my friend's parents who are Catholic complained about "The DaVinci Code" and there was even something on the news about how it started to enrage some of the Catholic people. I'm sick of explaining this, why can't you just drop it, becaue your just exacerbating the argument.[/COLOR][/quote]

[SIZE="1"]Prem, get a dictionary and look up the word "JOKE" and stop overreacting to every little thing that someone posts in relation to you. I've read the [B]Da Vinci Code[/B] and [B]Angels and Demons[/B] and found them to be decent books of fiction, and nothing more. But I suppose when there's a billion damn Catholics on the planet, a few of us were bound to get a little riled up.[/SIZE]

[Aberinkula]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Prem, get a dictionary and look up the word "JOKE" and stop overreacting to every little thing that someone posts in relation to you. I've read the [B]Da Vinci Code[/B] and [B]Angels and Demons[/B] and found them to be decent books of fiction, and nothing more. But I suppose when there's a billion damn Catholics on the planet, a few of us were bound to get a little riled up.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Navy"]I've always wondered what group was bigger, Catholic or Protestants? Sorry if I came off as jerky. I've just been under pressure lately, family troubles. But overreacting is not the word, something more strong would explain my behavior. [/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Premonition'][COLOR="Navy"]I've always wondered what group was bigger, Catholic or Protestants? Sorry if I came off as jerky. I've just been under pressure lately, family troubles. But overreacting is not the word, something more strong would explain my behavior. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]No problem, these threads have a nasty habit of causing people to vent.[/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[size=1]It's generally accepted that abortion should be allowed for women in cases of rape.

Food for thought: Should a man who was raped be allowed to force said woman into abortion?[/size]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Retribution'][size=1]It's generally accepted that abortion should be allowed for women in cases of rape.

Food for thought: Should a man who was raped be allowed to force said woman into abortion?[/size][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Perhaps it's accepted, but that doesn't make it right. The unborn kids in those cases have done nothing to deserve execution.

As for your second point, I think it draws back to the "Pregnancy is punishment" thing, but again I'd be against a termination. Would seem more just that she be forced to carry the child and then have it taken away from her and put up for adoption, hmm that sounded a mite more draconian than I'd intended.

Just OOC does rape for males ever occur ? Hetero in this case as it refers to Alex's point.[/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Perhaps it's accepted, but that doesn't make it right. The unborn kids in those cases have done nothing to deserve execution.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
[size=1]Right, well, for the sake of argument, play along. I'm genuinely interested to see what sort conclusions people draw.

[QUOTE][size=1]As for your second point, I think it draws back to the "Pregnancy is punishment" thing, but again I'd be against a termination.[/size][/QUOTE]
No, I don't think you're understanding. Presumably the woman would want to keep the child but the father would not. What's outstanding about this case is that the man was raped, rather than the other way around.

[QUOTE][size=1]Just OOC does rape for males ever occur ? Hetero in this case as it refers to Alex's point.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://myspace.drewpydraws.com/chicks/WH_fat_girls.jpg[/IMG]

You decide.[/size]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]

Just OOC does rape for males ever occur ? Hetero in this case as it refers to Alex's point.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]


[url]http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1152684.ece[/url]

[color=deeppink]The[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_statutory_female_on_male_rape#Sperm_Theft"] Wikipedia[/URL] article also claims that in Canada, the rate of female-on-male rape is 31%, although I couldn't find that bit of information in the source it provided. This is, of course, forcible rape and not statutory rape.[/color]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Retribution'][size=1]No, I don't think you're understanding. Presumably the woman would want to keep the child but the father would not. What's outstanding about this case is that the man was raped, rather than the other way around.[/size][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Oh right. We'll I guess I'd probably still be against it for the "child's done nothing wrong" line of thought. I know it seems a cop-out Alex but I do genuinely believe that rape abortions shouldn't be special unless the mother is genuinely going to kill or seriously harm herself is she has to carry the child. [/SIZE]

[quote name='Retribution'][size=1][IMG]http://myspace.drewpydraws.com/chicks/WH_fat_girls.jpg[/IMG]

You decide.[/size][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Dude. Not. Cool.

@ Nerdsy: Interesting article, I'd genuinely never heard of a case of a female rapist before.[/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Oh right. We'll I guess I'd probably still be against it for the "child's done nothing wrong" line of thought. I know it seems a cop-out Alex but I do genuinely believe that rape abortions shouldn't be special unless the mother is genuinely going to kill or seriously harm herself is she has to carry the child. [/SIZE][/QUOTE]
[size=1]See: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Advocate][b]Devil's Advocate[/b][/url].

[QUOTE][SIZE="1"]Dude. Not. Cool.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
Haha, it had to be done.[/size]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"] Perhaps it's accepted, but that doesn't make it right. The unborn kids in those cases have done nothing to deserve execution. [/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy] That's a fair statement Gavin, I'll give you that. But I think abortion in cases such as rape or incest is considered acceptable because it has a chance to lessen the psychological problems that would occur while carrying the child of your attacker.

Yes, the unborn child didn't do anything to warrant the abortion, but the mother also didn't do anything to warrant being raped. So why should she be punished for it?

Okay adoption, can I have a show of hands for how many members on this board are either 1.) adopted 2.) Parents and/or 3.) adopted and a parent?

I don't know how relevent this topic is to the discussion, but I'm adopted and I've gone through nine months of pregnancy and labor (twelve hours and I highly recommend an epidural :angel:) I can't immagine any harder decision (other than abortion) than giving a part of yourself up for adoption. I bet it takes a lot of soul searching and a lot of thought to willingly give up a child either way. [/color][/font]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR="goldenrod"][quote name='Retribution'][size=1]This doesn't hold up when pro-lifers truly believe that [i]abortion is tantamount to murdering a newborn.[/i] Just saying that "We all have to eventually respect one another's personal freedoms and let them decide," that's equivalent to saying "Let people kill one another indiscriminately [and without prosecution], we all have personal choice." This argument from the pro-choice just doesn't fly.[/size][/QUOTE]The argument that all unborn babies are fully developed life doesn't fly either to those who are pro-choice. Miscarriages as well as other circumstances result in a natural abortion so why is that okay and not murder? There's a big difference between killing indiscriminately when the person in question is separate from the mother. It's not the same at all. You can't take a barely developing fetus out of a woman's body without it dying. It lacks the ability to survive. We're talking about ending potential, not life that posses the ability to survive on it's own. There's no getting around that.

The truth is I wish abortion wasn?t necessary, that every child was wanted, that every woman who became pregnant could afford to have a child or wasn?t having one due to being raped. But realistically I know that?s not possible and the very last thing I want to do is to make it even harder by not giving the woman every option available.

Outlawing abortion isn't the issue, the real issue is how society has failed these women in so many ways, from lack of education, to a lack of funding to help them prevent pregnancy and even more cruel, trying to take away their choice to decide to keep or abort the fetus when the circumstance leading to that situation is often far more than a simple sexual encounter.

But I guess what surprises me the most is that we seem to be okay with trying to make others choices for them. On some level there is a certain amount of regulation needed to maintain order. But on another, where would it end? Since there are so many different views as to who is right and who is wrong. So at some point you have to step back and quit trying to make people's choices for them. Even if you disagree with it.[/COLOR]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='Aaryanna'][COLOR="goldenrod"]Miscarriages as well as other circumstances result in a natural abortion so why is that okay and not murder?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]For the same reason that a person dying of a heart attack is not murder. It's a natural, often unavoidable occurrance; nobody killed anybody, just bad luck.[/color]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Aaryanna'][COLOR="goldenrod"]The argument that all unborn babies are fully developed life doesn't fly either to those who are pro-choice. Miscarriages as well as other circumstances result in a natural abortion so why is that okay and not murder? There's a big difference between killing indiscriminately when the person in question is separate from the mother. It's not the same at all. You can't take a barely developing fetus out of a woman's body without it dying. It lacks the ability to survive. We're talking about ending potential, not life that posses the ability to survive on it's own. There's no getting around that.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[size=1]Nerdsy put it pretty well, but I'll elaborate. Pro-lifers truly believe that the developing fetus is as human as a newborn infant. For example: both a 5 year old and a 25 year old are human, right? Just because one is further along in development doesn't make one less human than the other. Therefore, it is tantamount to murder. If it's the same as murder, saying that we should respect the woman's right really is a moot point. It's the same as saying we should respect a murder's right to kill.

More than anything, I bring up this point not because I agree with it, but because I think it's paramount we understand where they're coming from. This is why the pro-life camp's arguments are so strong -- because they truly believe it is murder, which from that perspective, truly is appalling.

Aside from that, I totally agree with your other points.[/size]

[Charles]

It all comes down to this: it's women who have to endure pregnancy so it should be womens' choice whether or not to go through with the pregnancy.

So, I'm womens' choice.

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]I'm pro-life and don't believe an abortion is ever acceptable, except maybe in cases of rape when the pregnancy is going to endanger the life of the mother. That I'm kind of sketchy on, since it's basically asking me to choose which person I think deserves to live and which doesn't.

Anyway, even putting aside religious beliefs, I've never read any arguments that have convinced me of fetuses not being human life. Most of them, like not being able to live outside the mother, also apply to newborns?they can't survive on their own either. A zygote formed at conception contains a complete human DNA string with all the necessary information to grow into a fully-developed human and possesses all seven of the generally accepted characteristics of life, with the exception of reproduction in the sense of creating a new individual. (But, again, that applies to infants as well.) It's not "potential life," as that would be something that may or may not become alive; it [i]is[/i] life because it's already alive.

So, yeah, it does seem like murder to me. And that's even less cool than Retri posting that fatty pic.[/color]

[Sandy]

I don't consider myself justified to say anything on the matter, since I'm a gay male and will never have kids of my own, thus I will never have to make the choice myself.

I just have to comment on this:

[quote name='Desbreko'][color=#4B0082]It's not "potential life," as that would be something that may or may not become alive; it [i]is[/i] life because it's already alive.

So, yeah, it does seem like murder to me.[/color][/QUOTE]

With that philosophy you shouldn't be eating meat, stepping on grass or even breathe in case you might swallow a microscoping insect. Animals, plants and bugs are all alive, you know.

Thus you need to make a separation between "life" and "human life". Does a fetus live a human life? Inarguably no. So it is the [I]potential[/I] life lost that you're worrying about after all, isn't it?

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]Note the part about it being human due to its genetics. Human DNA + life = human life.[/color]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='Desbreko'][color=#4B0082]A zygote formed at conception contains a complete human DNA string with [B]all the necessary information to grow into a fully-developed human[/B] and possesses all seven of the generally accepted characteristics of life, with the exception of reproduction in the sense of creating a new individual. (But, again, that applies to infants as well.) It's not "potential life," as that would be something that may or may not become alive; it [i]is[/i] life because it's already alive..[/color][/QUOTE]Note the part [I]grow into[/I]. At that point it's not there yet. ;) It hasn't gotten to the point of possessing the generally accepted characteristics of life you're talking about.

The thing here is we're putting human life above the rest as if its inherently more special somehow. When having all the code needed for something to mature into a full version of it's parent doesn't grant it automatic status of being murdered if it doesn't mature to that point due to outside influences halting the process.

In the end I agree with A_M. Even if I think abortion should be the absolute last choice, like her I am not comfortable with thinking I am correct in taking that choice away from a total stranger. Especially since some of the arguments around here (in Utah that is) is that upon conception a growing baby has a soul and that is in my opinion unprovable. [/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Retribution'][size=1]See: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Advocate][b]Devil's Advocate[/b][/url][/size][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Saw it before, decent film, thought Reeves gave one of his better performances IMO. That was a joke by the way. I get where you're going Alex, and to be fair I do understand and even empathise with the reasons people have for abortions, I just don't think it's right.[/SIZE]

[quote name='indifference'][COLOR="Indigo"]Note the part [I]grow into[/I]. At that point it's not there yet. ;) It hasn't gotten to the point of possessing the generally accepted characteristics of life you're talking about.

The thing here is we're putting human life above the rest as if its inherently more special somehow. When having all the code needed for something to mature into a full version of it's parent doesn't grant it automatic status of being murdered if it doesn't mature to that point due to outside influences halting the process.

In the end I agree with A_M. Even if I think abortion should be the absolute last choice, like her I am not comfortable with thinking I am correct in taking that choice away from a total stranger. Especially since some of the arguments around here (in Utah that is) is that upon conception a growing baby has a soul and that is in my opinion unprovable. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I don't think anyone has mentioned the word "soul" yet Crystia, indeed religion seems to have played a rather minor role in the debate so far, as most people seem to be giving personal beliefs rather than religious beliefs. Indeed if we're to introduce the soul aspect, then most religious people believe souls are gained at conception rather than somewhere in between it and birth. But let's not get into that as it adds unnecessary walls.

As for the "potential is not enough" argument, does that mean it's OK to terminate those who do not show all the signs of life as we know it ? People who are in a vegetative state surely don't show the sign of sensitivity and yet we don't just pull the plugs on them left, right and centre. Not the best example I know, but it just highlights the point I think.[/SIZE]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]I don't think anyone has mentioned the word "soul" yet Crystia, indeed religion seems to have played a rather minor role in the debate so far, as most people seem to be giving personal beliefs rather than religious beliefs. Indeed if we're to introduce the soul aspect, then most religious people believe souls are gained at conception rather than somewhere in between it and birth. But let's not get into that as it adds unnecessary walls.

As for the "potential is not enough" argument, does that mean it's OK to terminate those who do not show all the signs of life as we know it ? People who are in a vegetative state surely don't show the sign of sensitivity and yet we don't just pull the plugs on them left, right and centre. Not the best example I know, but it just highlights the point I think.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]I only mention it since the argument that an unborn baby has a soul is part of why people where I live object to abortion and consider it murder. Not to drag the debate into religion per se. I prefer to stick to the more physical aspect and leave religious beliefs out of it. It's more from dealing with people who stick to religion to oppose it. I don't agree with it.

Also you're misunderstanding potential as I meant it. Potential to me is something that can, physically, be a complete organism whether it's a human, dog, cat, etc. When a fetus is growing, it is not past the point where it is considered wholly complete. Also signs of life can be taken in many different forms. But I am talking about one who physically has left the mother's womb and is at that point complete as far as her body is concerned. Being in a vegetative state is more about mental issues or physical ones, not about being able to survive outside the womb. So though it might not be the potential or level of completeness that one would have hoped for, on some level they have achieved it.

We'd really have to get into what we consider potential as far as it being fulfilled if we are going to introduce those who's growth did not fit into the norm and thus resulted in them being in a vegetative state. Or due to outside influences that happened later in life. I'm talking about those who have yet to be born if you will. And again that's my point. They cannot continue without the mother where others in a vegetative state, with our help can.

If we had the technology to take a fetus from a mother who did not want it and provide what was necessary for it to mature into a child, don't you think we'd have done so already? That's really the problem with abortion isn't it? We lack the means to support the developing human if it is removed from the mothers womb.

In the end. I still cannot accept the idea that I should be making this decision for others. Even if I think one shouldn't do it. Also, I have yet to see anything that convinces me that abortion is murder. So until I see otherwise I am not going to support the idea of taking that choice away from those who wish to have an abortion.[/COLOR]

[Desbreko]

[quote name='indifference'][COLOR="Indigo"]Note the part [I]grow into[/I]. At that point it's not there yet. ;) It hasn't gotten to the point of possessing the generally accepted characteristics of life you're talking about.[/COLOR][/QUOTE][color=#4B0082]But a newborn hasn't gotten to the point of being a fully developed human either and is still in the process of growing into one, the same as a zygote or embryo is. There's still plenty left that needs to grow and develop, from the brain to body structure. No one would argue that it's okay to kill babies because they aren't fully developed yet, but that's where you end up if you take the argument of, "It's not fully developed yet so it's okay," to its logical conclusion.

And yes, a zygote does possess the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life#Definitions][u]characteristics of life[/u][/url], just as much as any other single celled organism does. I'm not talking about living in the same way as outside the uterus, I'm talking about the actual definition of life.[/color]

[Gavin]

[quote name='indifference'][COLOR="Indigo"]I only mention it since the argument that an unborn baby has a soul is part of why people where I live object to abortion and consider it murder. Not to drag the debate into religion per se. I prefer to stick to the more physical aspect and leave religious beliefs out of it. It's more from dealing with people who stick to religion to oppose it. I don't agree with it.[/color][/quote]

[SIZE="1"]I can definitely appreciate where you're coming from Crystia, while previously I've brought in religion myself, I've avoided it this time because it never helps the argument but rather blurs it even more. Strictly talking from physical evidence however, I'm going to have to agree with Des' most recent post, scientifically a foetus is just as "alive" as a newborn infant and must continue growing before it reaching maturity as an infant must.

As for whether I've misunderstood what you meant by potential, I still feel it's a flawed argument as humans are not truly "complete" physically or mentally once they've exited the womb, only slightly less vulnerable than they were when they were inside it. Again this goes back to Des' last point, but in regard to the vegetative state, a person in one is wholly dependant on others to care for him/her and I really don't see what the difference is there in, they like the foetus are not fully complete and so I think share the position of the foetus.

To the technology point, if it could be done, well that's just one other option, but I honestly can't imagine people would be more willing to simply move the child and be potentially responsible for it afterwards rather than terminating it. But hey that's just my take on it.

In regard to the making choices for others, we have laws that define what people can and cannot do, I really don't see how this is different, but perhaps that's because abortion is still illegal over here in Ireland.[/SIZE]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]In regard to the making choices for others, we have laws that define what people can and cannot do, I really don't see how this is different, but perhaps that's because abortion is still illegal over here in Ireland.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]Ah but here that is not the case. It is legal. ;) And I still support one being allowed to choose. Here's something to think about. The argument is that making abortion legal and safe make it far to simple for one to do so and would lead to abnormally high abortion rates right? That does sound logical. Doesn't it?

Except that the safest and easiest place in the world to get an abortion is the Netherlands, which also has the lowest abortion rate in the world. The reason for this is an extensive use of reliable contraception. It is a paradox that so many of those campaigners who condemn abortion also condemn contraception and especially giving contraceptives to young, single people.

Here's something else that sounds logical. You often hear people say that no-one should need abortions, because contraception makes it unnecessary. They point to places like Russia where abortion is legal but modern contraceptives have been almost unavailable. Women there have abortions again and again because it is the only way they can limit their family size. Now that contraception is being introduced more widely the number of abortions is falling.

So in the end it still is an issue of choice. And my view is that we should be making every single choice available for women including abortion. Until we clearly define or rather the law clearly defines an abortion as murder then I will not support doing away with it.

I can't really argue the side of whether or not it's life/potential. I don't know enough for that, other than to tell you what my take on it is. But I can and will argue the side of one who's career is working with victims of domestic violence, since I see cases on a regular basis where getting an abortion is mentally the healthiest thing the woman can do. Until we work on making full choices available as well as reducing domestic violence such as rape, incest, spousal abuse, etc. I won't support pro-life. Because in my opinion, we're ignoring the life that's already suffering in favor of the life that is coming into the world.

It's like trying to put a one inch band aid on a three foot gash. It just doesn't work. You have to work on the whole problem if you really want to make a difference. Pro-life ignores that side of it, the lack of sex education, availability of contraceptives, etc. At least my experience with those who support it has indicated this. [/COLOR]