The13thMan Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 [quote name='DeathKnight']whateveryourstupidSNisthesedays[/quote][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Ok... i thought we were having a mature conversation. What's up with this random insult? I'm not going to accuse you of being childish or incredibly lame... that would be below me. ;D I won't mention it past this. [/FONT][/COLOR] [quote name='DeathKnight'][color=crimson]It's not a matter of "ownership". The contribution of the sperm to creating the child is accepted, it's the fact that past that point it becomes a literal PART of the woman's body that will eventually, if it is allowed and luck graces it, be born as a human infant. The father's wishes are commonly [i]discussed[/i] and known in most healthy relationships. In cases of rape or abuse I'm not sure where you're coming from. Rarely a falling out could occur between the father and the mother but I would defer to the mother over the father.[/color] [/color][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]You claim that it isn't a matter of "ownership" then you contradict yourself by saying the reason the woman has more of a say is that it is part of the woman's body. You realize you made the assumption that we have ownership over our own selves here, don't you? Perhaps i've mistaken you... I'm not actually so much talking about the actuality of the situation as i am society's viewpoint of it. Although, i don't know how you can make such a claim without some sort of study to back it up. Do you have a study to back it up that states the father's wishes are commonly discussed? I'm not saying it's not so, i'm only saying that i don't know if it is or not. Regardless, it is irrelevant. Why would you refer to the mother over the father? That seems ridiculous to me. Doesn't it matter what the two individual people are like? The mother could be a loser and the father could be really cool. It's not fair that you've already made up your mind beforehand. [/FONT][/COLOR] [QUOTE=DeathKnight] [color=crimson]Yes.[/color][/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]::sigh:: I expected more from you. [/FONT][/COLOR] [quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]What about in cases of domestic abuse? Should that woman have to consult a man who is harming her over the fate of his child? And would not that mandatory consultation be perilous for that mother? I mean it'd be ideal to have a joint decision about it, and that the parents would give equal weight to one another's words, but that's not the case.[/font][/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Hm... i'd say the father should still have some say. He should be recognized for his abuse though and seek help. I'm not actually talking about making anything mandatory here. I'm just saying that society should see it more as a decision that needs to be made by both parents. It's not fair to give the woman more right over it than the father. It is a human being we are talking about after all. Or is it? Dum dum duuuum! So, you agree in the ideal scenario both would have equal weight in the decision? Shouldn't we always strive for ideals? I think so. [/FONT][/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathKnight Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 [quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]I won't mention it past this. [/FONT][/COLOR][/quote] [color=crimson]Oooooo burn.[/color] [quote name='The13thMan][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]You claim that it isn't a matter of "ownership" then you contradict yourself by saying the reason the woman has more of a say is that it is part of the woman's body. You realize you made the assumption that we have ownership over our own selves here, don't you? Perhaps i've mistaken you...[/color'][/font][/quote] [color=crimson]It becomes a part of her body. You have the air of "how dare you take away father's rights". A woman's right to what goes on with her body seems difficult to equalize to the gender that does not have anything growing in their body and affecting it. [/color] [quote name='The13thman][color=DarkOrange']Although, i don't know how you can make such a claim without some sort of study to back it up. Do you have a study to back it up that states the father's wishes are commonly discussed? I'm not saying it's not so, i'm only saying that i don't know if it is or not. Regardless, it is irrelevant.[/quote][/color] [color=crimson]Commonly important issues are brought up in healthy relationships, which is pretty much a repeat of what I said. In unhealthy relationships, rape, abuse, other circumstances than that then it's either not applicable to have a father's consent or probably not done. I attained these studies about the "communication phenomenon" within healthy relationships from the Encyclopedia Dramatica.[/color] [quote=The13thMan][color=DarkOrange]Why would you refer to the mother over the father? That seems ridiculous to me. Doesn't it matter what the two individual people are like? The mother could be a loser and the father could be really cool. It's not fair that you've already made up your mind beforehand. [/quote][/COLOR] [color=crimson]Do you have any studies regarding the ratio of coolness between mothers and fathers? I've never really looked at those figures, I'd need to see that to really think about what you're saying here.[/color] [quote name='The13thMan][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]::sigh:: I expected more from you.[/FONT'][/COLOR][/quote] [color=crimson]I'll grow to accept your disappointment with time.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horendithas Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 [COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='DeathKnight'][color=crimson]In unhealthy relationships, rape, abuse, other circumstances than that then it's either not applicable to have a father's consent or probably not done..[/color][/QUOTE]In cases that involve rape, many states already have laws that give the father no rights whatsoever. [INDENT]When a child is conceived and born as the result of an unlawful sexual intercourse as defined in the code, the biological father shall not be permitted visitation. This does not violate constitutional principles. “No court has held that the mere fact of biological fatherhood that was the result of a conception during a criminal act and that is unaccompanied by a relationship with the child, creates an interest that the United States Constitution protects in the name of liberty.”[/INDENT] This mainly applies to the woman actually having the child of course, but in the end, even if she choose abortion, the rapist has no say whatsoever in regards to the kid. Whether she aborts it, keeps it, puts it up for adoption, etc. And in my opinion, in that situation the only thing he has a right to, is to remain silent.[/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The13thMan Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 [quote name='DeathKnight'][color=crimson]Oooooo burn.[/color] [color=crimson]It becomes a part of her body. You have the air of "how dare you take away father's rights". A woman's right to what goes on with her body seems difficult to equalize to the gender that does not have anything growing in their body and affecting it. [/color] [/color] [color=crimson]Commonly important issues are brought up in healthy relationships, which is pretty much a repeat of what I said. In unhealthy relationships, rape, abuse, other circumstances than that then it's either not applicable to have a father's consent or probably not done. I attained these studies about the "communication phenomenon" within healthy relationships from the Encyclopedia Dramatica.[/color] [/COLOR] [color=crimson]Do you have any studies regarding the ratio of coolness between mothers and fathers? I've never really looked at those figures, I'd need to see that to really think about what you're saying here.[/color] [color=crimson]I'll grow to accept your disappointment with time.[/color][/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Congratulations. You are now wasting my time with your stupidity. There are too many things wrong with what you said. You didn't comprehend anything that i said because you basically just repeated yourself without addressing anything i brought up. So yeah... you're a waste of time. Have a nice day! =D [/FONT][/COLOR] [quote name='indifference'][COLOR="Indigo"]In cases that involve rape, many states already have laws that give the father no rights whatsoever. [INDENT]When a child is conceived and born as the result of an unlawful sexual intercourse as defined in the code, the biological father shall not be permitted visitation. This does not violate constitutional principles. “No court has held that the mere fact of biological fatherhood that was the result of a conception during a criminal act and that is unaccompanied by a relationship with the child, creates an interest that the United States Constitution protects in the name of liberty.”[/INDENT] This mainly applies to the woman actually having the child of course, but in the end, even if she choose abortion, the rapist has no say whatsoever in regards to the kid. Whether she aborts it, keeps it, puts it up for adoption, etc. And in my opinion, in that situation the only thing he has a right to, is to remain silent.[/COLOR][/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]I totally agree with this law. I wonder if Tennessee has it... [/FONT][/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathKnight Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 [quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Congratulations. You are now wasting my time with your stupidity. There are too many things wrong with what you said. You didn't comprehend anything that i said because you basically just repeated yourself without addressing anything i brought up. [/quote][/color][/font] [color=crimson]Grinning at your responses to my crud isn't much of a waste of time to me. I guess it's your time of the month though so I'll seriously respond to you rat-boy. You said that you think it's off that a man has to be supportive of anything a woman chooses and you've arrived at a fun juncture in the abortion debate. A woman is choosing, if she aborts, to revoke the man's right to fatherhood at the same time. Likewise, if she has it when the father does not want her to she is forcing the father into fatherhood which can get icky with child support (You aren't ready to be a dad? Too bad, here's the bill). Give the father all the say and the trend will be reversed. It's straightforward to say "The fetus is now growing within your body and it is now your responsibility", so that is what they say. Trying to meet in the middle would be ideal but it's hard to work out some kind of middle ground between those two. Some countries and U.S. states require the father's consent to abort (usually having a provision that if the mother is in medical danger it can be overridden). Until this need for consent spreads or otherwise the best thing to do is wrap it before you tap it unless you want a bunch of little rat-children.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 [COLOR=#354253][quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Take this case for example: The woman wants an abortion and the man does not. What should happen? Who should have the say? It is her body... she would have to go through the months of bearing the child. Is that enough to give her the right to terminate the child's "life" when the father says otherwise? The fact that society expects a man to be supportive of whatever the women wants is a little off in my opinion. But only a tiny bit. Don't get me wrong. =D I just think instead of society expecting cooperation it should expect deliberation in this case. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE] Ah, but a woman CAN get through those 9 months without the child's father. There might be tears shed and letters burnt, but the fact is that after fertilization, [i]the man simply becomes useless[/i]. We're more like black widows than penguins, in this sense. Support can't take away morning nausea, support can't keep stretch marks from appearing, support can't take away the risks of birthing, support can't heal C-section and episiotomy lacerations. And because of that, I believe that the father's decision has no leverage on the issue. After all, it's not his body that gets exposed to the risks involved before, during and after birthing. A tremendous amount of stress put on a woman's body during pregnancy. The chemicals in her body go haywire and she has to be extra-careful not to do anything that might trigger miscarriage. It's almost like being a grounded adolescent with hyperactive hormones. Then there's the birthing itself. Not all women are fortunate enough to have easy deliveries. Procedures like C-section and episiotomy require surgery and exposes mothers to the risk of uncontrolled bleeding and infection, among others. Add to that side-effects like post-partum depression, sexual dysfunction and perineal trauma and you've got yourself a cocktail for a changed woman. You can't say "Oh, she can just put the baby up for adoption." Birthing is nothing like your daily ten minutes in the crapper. So there you go. More reasons to hug your mom more often. ;)[/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The13thMan Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 [quote name='DeathKnight'][/color][/font] [color=crimson]Grinning at your responses to my crud isn't much of a waste of time to me. I guess it's your time of the month though so I'll seriously respond to you rat-boy. [/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Once again i'm greatly dissapointed by the quality of your post. You show very little understanding of what i said and what my point was/is. And also... You're a poop head. [/FONT][/COLOR] [QUOTE=DeathKnight(poophead)] You said that you think it's off that a man has to be supportive of anything a woman chooses and you've arrived at a fun juncture in the abortion debate.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]No, you left out an important part. I said that it's not fair for the man to be supportive if the woman doesn't have to be or isn't. I mean... i can understand if the lady's being harmonal from the baby, but if she's thinking straight she should really see what the guy wants. I do think this happens in most healthy relationships, but once again that's not my point. My point is society is more expecting of the father to sacrafice himself and what he wants and just be supportive of the woman. [/FONT][/COLOR] [QUOTE=DeathKnight] A woman is choosing, if she aborts, to revoke the man's right to fatherhood at the same time. Likewise, if she has it when the father does not want her to she is forcing the father into fatherhood which can get icky with child support (You aren't ready to be a dad? Too bad, here's the bill). Give the father all the say and the trend will be reversed. It's straightforward to say "The fetus is now growing within your body and it is now your responsibility", so that is what they say.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Never said anything about giving anybody all the say... actually my entire point is the exact opposite. You simply misunderstood what i said. Oh well. (>'-')b [/FONT][/COLOR] [QUOTE=DeathKnight] Trying to meet in the middle would be ideal but it's hard to work out some kind of middle ground between those two. Some countries and U.S. states require the father's consent to abort (usually having a provision that if the mother is in medical danger it can be overridden). Until this need for consent spreads or otherwise the best thing to do is wrap it before you tap it unless you want a bunch of little rat-children.[/color][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]If meeting in the middle is ideal in your opinion then we agree. What the freck are we arguing about? [/FONT][/COLOR] [quote name='Sirius'][COLOR=#354253] Ah, but a woman CAN get through those 9 months without the child's father. There might be tears shed and letters burnt, but the fact is that after fertilization, [i]the man simply becomes useless[/i]. We're more like black widows than penguins, in this sense. Support can't take away morning nausea, support can't keep stretch marks from appearing, support can't take away the risks of birthing, support can't heal C-section and episiotomy lacerations. And because of that, I believe that the father's decision has no leverage on the issue. After all, it's not his body that gets exposed to the risks involved before, during and after birthing. A tremendous amount of stress put on a woman's body during pregnancy. The chemicals in her body go haywire and she has to be extra-careful not to do anything that might trigger miscarriage. It's almost like being a grounded adolescent with hyperactive hormones. Then there's the birthing itself. Not all women are fortunate enough to have easy deliveries. Procedures like C-section and episiotomy require surgery and exposes mothers to the risk of uncontrolled bleeding and infection, among others. Add to that side-effects like post-partum depression, sexual dysfunction and perineal trauma and you've got yourself a cocktail for a changed woman. You can't say "Oh, she can just put the baby up for adoption." Birthing is nothing like your daily ten minutes in the crapper. So there you go. More reasons to hug your mom more often. ;)[/COLOR][/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Yes, there is a lot of stress put on the woman during childhood. It should definitely be considered if the idea of abortion is brought up by either person. But this is still a potential human being we're talking about. A potential son or daughter. A woman going through the pain of childbirth shouldn't be more important than a person getting a child if he/she wants one, unless of course the woman is sickly or some other reason. [/FONT][/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathKnight Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 [quote=The13thMan][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]My point is society is more expecting of the father to sacrafice himself and what he wants and just be supportive of the woman. [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Never said anything about giving anybody all the say... actually my entire point is the exact opposite. You simply misunderstood what i said. Oh well. (>'-')b [/FONT][/COLOR][/quote] [color=crimson]You took the paragraph ("A woman is choosing, if she aborts, to revoke the man's right to fatherhood at the same time...") as a rebuttal to something you've said when that was not the case. It was a statement on a set of views on the paternal/maternal rights regarding abortion debate. [/color] [quote=The13thMan][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]If meeting in the middle is ideal in your opinion then we agree. What the freck are we arguing about? [/FONT][/COLOR][/quote] [color=crimson]We're not, you're still feeling the need to defend yourself although I've stopped being antagonistic and sarcastic towards you. Chill, I'm not messing with you in these last two posts.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunfallE Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 [COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]No, you left out an important part. I said that it's not fair for the man to be supportive if the woman doesn't have to be or isn't. I mean... i can understand if the lady's being harmonal from the baby, but if she's thinking straight she should really see what the guy wants. I do think this happens in most healthy relationships, but once again that's not my point. My point is society is more expecting of the father to sacrafice himself and what he wants and just be supportive of the woman. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]I have to admit, you've confused me, but how is a woman not supportive? If anything the whole decision revolves around a high level of being supportive should she end up keeping the kid. That decision is far more important to her than it ever will be to the father. As far as carrying the child to term and giving birth that is. And the implication that '[I]if she's thinking straight she should really see what the guy wants[/I]' is equally as puzzling. Like if she sees differently then she's somehow screwy and not seeing straight? Having a different opinon in regards to keeping a child or not does not make the woman hormonal and instantly not '[I]seeing straight[/I]' I'd be careful with saying that, you won't be gaining any popularity with the women if you really think that. In the end, unless things change so the father can be the one to take all the risks involved in pregnancy, there is no sacrifice on his part. Sure he may have wanted to be a father, but in the end, his part in this whole deal is long since over and done with.[quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Yes, there is a lot of stress put on the woman during childhood. It should definitely be considered if the idea of abortion is brought up by either person. But this is still a potential human being we're talking about. A potential son or daughter. A woman going through the pain of childbirth shouldn't be more important than a person getting a child if he/she wants one, unless of course the woman is sickly or some other reason. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]I don't agree, regardless of someone else's wishes, it is still her choice and so long as she faces the potential dangers associated with it, she should have the final say in the matter. Also DeathKnight... I thought 2007DigitalBoy was Rat Boy, not The13thMan. XP[/FONT][/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aberinkula Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 [COLOR="Navy"]Yeah, but I haven't seen DigitalBoy around the last few days. Wonder what's happened? I'm sure the13thman can take over for a while.[/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathKnight Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 [quote name='SunfallE'][COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Also DeathKnight... I thought 2007DigitalBoy was Rat Boy, not The13thMan. XP[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE] [color=crimson]I thought that was him with a name change. Oh man have I been a jerk to the wrong person? Woops. Awkward.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horendithas Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 [COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='Sirius'][COLOR=#354253]So there you go. More reasons to hug your mom more often. ;)[/COLOR][/QUOTE]Quoted for truth. Seriously though The13thMan, once a guy has gotten a woman pregnant, all cries of I should have a say as to whether she can abort it or not are on many levels pointless and unrealistic. There is no getting around what Sirius just explained. In the end, she is the one who goes through everything involved. About the only good thing about being pregnant and it's a small thing really, is that they don't have to deal with that time of the month. Though what they just got in a trade off is a lot more demanding. Potential life or not, her risk, her choice. And I hope your statement about a woman being hormonal and seeing straight isn't what you really think or that I'm misunderstanding you. Since there's nothing wrong with not wanting a child. Plenty of women, in spite of precautions end up pregnant when they didn't want to. And to see differently than the father is not an issue of being hormonal or not seeing straight. Honestly that's utter BS. Not wanting a baby, even in a healthy relationship is often an option used by couples in planned parenthood. Also, SunfallE is right DeathKnight, Rat Boy [I]is[/I] 2007DigitalBoy. lol So yes you have been a jerk to the wrong person. :p [/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathKnight Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 [quote name='indifference'][COLOR="Indigo"]Also, SunfallE is right DeathKnight, Rat Boy [I]is[/I] 2007DigitalBoy. lol So yes you have been a jerk to the wrong person. :p [/COLOR][/QUOTE] [color=crimson]My bad person who uses same color and font of 2k7 Digital Boy.. and talks like him. I hope he hasn't cloned himself or something. O_O[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachmaninoff Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 [quote name='DeathKnight'][COLOR=crimson]My bad person who uses same color and font of 2k7 Digital Boy.. and talks like him. I hope he hasn't cloned himself or something. O_O[/COLOR][/quote]Gods, now there's a scary thought. Clones of 2007DigitalBoy running around. >_< Seriously though, he hasn't even been online for a couple of days at least. As for the topic... I'm in agreement with the sentiment that in the end a guy has no say in the matter. I mean seriously, other than to get her pregnant at that point it's 100% out of your influence. You could cease to exist and it would make no difference. She's the one in the position of facing all the issues surrounding being pregnant so that definately gives her the final say. I mean when it comes down to the total process of a baby being made, a guys contribution, though important is less than 1% of the total process. Sure it's his sperm that fertilized the egg, blah, blah, blah. But it's 100% her body that's making that process come to completion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 [quote name='Rachmaninoff']Gods, now there's a scary thought. Clones of 2007DigitalBoy running around. >_< Seriously though, he hasn't even been online for a couple of days at least. [/QUOTE] [SIZE="1"]ALAN COME BACK !! We need your n00b Hunter prowess. Anyone who didn't get the joke, go and search for the words n00b Hunter and read the stories, they're great.[/SIZE] [quote name='Rachmaninoff']As for the topic... I'm in agreement with the sentiment that in the end a guy has no say in the matter. I mean seriously, other than to get her pregnant at that point it's 100% out of your influence. You could cease to exist and it would make no difference. She's the one in the position of facing all the issues surrounding being pregnant so that definately gives her the final say. I mean when it comes down to the total process of a baby being made, a guys contribution, though important is less than 1% of the total process. Sure it's his sperm that fertilized the egg, blah, blah, blah. But it's 100% her body that's making that process come to completion.[/QUOTE] [SIZE="1"]Wow, a lot of you people must really think little of your fathers. Seriously, when you've gone and hugged your mom, go and hug your dad if he's been there for you your entire life, because apparently by the sentiment here, he didn't have to be.[/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horendithas Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 [quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]Wow, a lot of you people must really think little of your fathers. Seriously, when you've gone and hugged your mom, go and hug your dad if he's been there for you your entire life, because apparently by the sentiment here, he didn't have to be.[/SIZE][/quote][COLOR=Indigo]Well I can't speak for the others, but my father, with work and all, was gone most of the time. He was a powerful influence, but not anywhere as much as my mother was and still is. Don't misunderstand me here. I'm talking about the concept that a woman can't have an abortion without the guy having an equal say. Now usually if someone is married usually they do make that decision together, but otherwise? Unless they are close, giving a guy that kind of power is really not very fair in my opinion. However, I deal with a lot of domestic abuse and rape victims, so I hope you'll understand that my view is a bit biased when it comes to this sort of deal. I see far to many guys who for all intents and purposes shouldn't be a part of the woman's life at all. Let alone be a father. [/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 [quote name='indifference'][COLOR=Indigo]Don't misunderstand me here. I'm talking about the concept that a woman can't have an abortion without the guy having an equal say. Now usually if someone is married usually they do make that decision together, but otherwise? Unless they are close, giving a guy that kind of power is really not very fair in my opinion.[/quote][/color] [SIZE="1"]Ah right my mistake. And while I still disagree with abortion altogether, you do have a valid point if we're dealing with pregnant women with no relationship to the father of the unborn.[/SIZE] [quote name='indifference'][COLOR=Indigo]However, I deal with a lot of domestic abuse and rape victims, so I hope you'll understand that my view is a bit biased when it comes to this sort of deal. I see far to many guys who for all intents and purposes shouldn't be a part of the woman's life at all. Let alone be a father. [/COLOR][/QUOTE] [SIZE="1"]Fair enough, and while I agree your view probably has been biased by what you've seen, I also agree that there are definitely guys out there who should never be fathers. I was thinking in a more general view where in my experience a lot of men make or will make good fathers and deserve to be part of their kid's lives.[/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEarthEater Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 [quote name='ChibiHorsewoman'][color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]I believe that if a friend of mine had come to me telling me that she was thinking of getting an abortion I'd try to talk her out of it. But in the end I'd [hopefully] realize that the decision was hers to make, not mine.[/color][/font][/QUOTE] I sort of agree with that. Because I don't think that an abortion would be right if I had a choice in it, but at the same time, if I don't have a choice in the whole matter, then I would at least try to talk them out of it. Its not that I have anything against it, I just don't believe that abortion is right for [i]everyone[/i]. But, at the same time, I would have to say that if I got a girl pregnant, then I would want to keep the kid because it would be [i]my kid[/i]. I think it would have to do something with money for me though. In my life of living in the dumps, I would have to say that the only reason I would have an abortion would be because of lack of money. Not much lack of will. But if it was one of my friends, I'm not sure what I would say. I know that I would have a big sister if my Mother didn't have an abortion, but at the same time, she wouldn't have had me. So, I think that there is a freedom of choice that goes into the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkikotATu76 Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 I'm very pro-life. I mean, I can see both sides of the arguement, but I don't think that a child should have to die because of what happened before it was concieved. I am religious as well, only helping what I think. And before I hear these common arguements: "What if I was raped? Should I just have the baby?" If you were raped, that really is terrible, but think about it, it's not the baby's fault. NOR IS IT YOURS, but the baby shouldn't die for it. As hard as it may be, adoption would be a wiser choice. The baby gets to go to a loving family who wants it, and though it might be hard to say goodbye, at least you got to see your baby, and at least you know it's alive. "So a woman shouldn't be allowed to choose what she does with her body?" Of course a woman should be allowed to choose what she does with ehr own body. But a baby has a body of it's own. Is the baby's litle beating heart HER heart? No. So the baby isn't HER body. And I'm a woman, in case anyone's wondering. Well, teen, but still a female able to get pregnant. "What if you're just not ready?" Well you should have thought of that before you opened your legs! If you know birth control doesn't always work, then either take the risk and raise the baby if you screw up (no pun intended) or keep your legs shut. It might be hard but there's a life at stake. "What if I'm only 15 or 16 and I get pregnant?" Like I said, you shouldn't have screwed up in the first place!! You messed up, people shouldn't die for it. If I sound mean, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention. But listen to what I said. It makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunfallE Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 [COLOR=goldenrod][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]Wow, a lot of you people must really think little of your fathers. Seriously, when you've gone and hugged your mom, go and hug your dad if he's been there for you your entire life, because apparently by the sentiment here, he didn't have to be.[/SIZE][/quote][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Goodness, who said anything about that meaning they wouldn't be good fathers? I can't speak for the others, but seriously, there just isn't a need for the father to have a legal say in the matter. Most couples that I know who are in a healthy relationship already do make that choice together. There isn't a need for him to have a more legal say in the matter. And for those relationships that are not healthy, why should he? It still comes down to she's the one who has to deal with being pregnant and all. And as Crystia pointed out some of them shouldn't be involved. Just as there are women who really shouldn't be a mother either. Not having a say in the final decision isn't about whether or not a guy would be a good father. I hope you understand that. [/FONT] [/COLOR][COLOR=goldenrod][COLOR=Black][quote name='AkikotATu76']"What if I was raped? Should I just have the baby?" If you were raped, that really is terrible, but think about it, it's not the baby's fault. NOR IS IT YOURS, but the baby shouldn't die for it. As hard as it may be, adoption would be a wiser choice. The baby gets to go to a loving family who wants it, and though it might be hard to say goodbye, at least you got to see your baby, and at least you know it's alive.[/quote][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=goldenrod][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Rape is a terrible thing and sure no kid should suffer because of it. But remember, not everyone believes that in those first moments that getting pregnant equals killing another life if you have an abortion. And having been in that position, of having been raped, [not getting pregnant as a result so I haven't had to make that choice] I would never tell another rape victim that they should keep the child. Ever. As for your second statement... Are you really advocating abstinence[/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS] here? Because think about it, if not having sex really worked, people wouldn't be getting pregnant. And being intimate is a very healthy side to a deep relationship. Doing so is not a screwup. Also, as for making sense, perhaps you do, to yourself. But everyone has different opinions as to what 'makes sense' Like the view on rape, I completely disagree. ^_~ [/FONT][/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The13thMan Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 [quote name='DeathKnight'][color=crimson]You took the paragraph ("A woman is choosing, if she aborts, to revoke the man's right to fatherhood at the same time...") as a rebuttal to something you've said when that was not the case. It was a statement on a set of views on the paternal/maternal rights regarding abortion debate. [/color][/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Uh... ok. @_@ Either way, i don't think either person should have all the say. [/FONT][/COLOR] [QUOTE=DeathKnight] [color=crimson]We're not, you're still feeling the need to defend yourself although I've stopped being antagonistic and sarcastic towards you. Chill, I'm not messing with you in these last two posts.[/color][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Oh... i took the ratboy thing as an awkward insult. I didn't quite get it. Now i see you thought i was someone else. That aside you were still being a bit jerky. And yes, i'm defensive, that's how a debate works. ;D I'm defensive of my opinion... even though it's more of a question that formed into an opinion for the sake of argument, but whatever. Also, i'm usually quite chill. I thought the poop head thing would've gave that away.... that was a joke. =/ Who says poop head these days? Oh wait... i think i saw someone say that in a movie recently. Anchorman? [/FONT][/COLOR] [quote name='SunfallE'][COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]I have to admit, you've confused me, but how is a woman not supportive? If anything the whole decision revolves around a high level of being supportive should she end up keeping the kid. That decision is far more important to her than it ever will be to the father. As far as carrying the child to term and giving birth that is. And the implication that '[I]if she's thinking straight she should really see what the guy wants[/I]' is equally as puzzling. Like if she sees differently then she's somehow screwy and not seeing straight? Having a different opinon in regards to keeping a child or not does not make the woman hormonal and instantly not '[I]seeing straight[/I]' I'd be careful with saying that, you won't be gaining any popularity with the women if you really think that. In the end, unless things change so the father can be the one to take all the risks involved in pregnancy, there is no sacrifice on his part. Sure he may have wanted to be a father, but in the end, his part in this whole deal is long since over and done with.I don't agree, regardless of someone else's wishes, it is still her choice and so long as she faces the potential dangers associated with it, she should have the final say in the matter. Also DeathKnight... I thought 2007DigitalBoy was Rat Boy, not The13thMan. XP[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Yikes! I read over what i said and i can defniitely see how you guys can get that out of it. I didn't mean that at all. Of course a woman has the right to get an abortion and disagree with the potential father. She's not crazy is she disagrees. The deal with the woman supportive thing... i just meant that a woman should be supportive to the father as well as the father should be supportive of the mother. Both should be equally supportive about the whole issue. Now.. as far as pregnancy, i consider that different than the fact that she's actually pregnant... as in the physical repercussions of pregnancy. Obviously the man doesn't have to go through that and should be extra supportive. That might be a bit confusing. ::shrug:: And in response to your last paragraph, i disagree. I think it's a huge sacrafice for both of them! I mean... if a woman gets an abortion when the father wants the child she's taking away the man's ability to pass on his genes and have his name live on. That can be a huge deal. Of course, this is all assuming the woman doesn't or seems like she won't go through any medical complications during pregnancy. If the mother's at risk then i value her life over the "life" of the unborn child. [/FONT][/COLOR] [QUOTE=DeathKnight]My bad person who uses same color and font of 2k7 Digital Boy.. and talks like him. I hope he hasn't cloned himself or something. O_O[/QUOTE] [COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Well... i suppose that clears up some things. But whatev man, it's cool. Hey, i started using that font and color before he did! Or at least i think i did. I've been on otaku for a very long time. When i chose the font and color i thought nobody had used it before.... but i haven't been posting lately so i can see how you'd think that. When i first saw him use the font/color combination i was like, what the hell!? Ah, unfortunately i can't own it. I'm sticking to this color, regardless. Get used to it. =P [/FONT][/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaryanna_Mom Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 [quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]And in response to your last paragraph, i disagree. I think it's a huge sacrafice for both of them! I mean... [b]if a woman gets an abortion when the father wants the child she's taking away the man's ability to pass on his genes and have his name live on[/b]. That can be a huge deal. Of course, this is all assuming the woman doesn't or seems like she won't go through any medical complications during pregnancy. If the mother's at risk then i value her life over the "life" of the unborn child.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]There should be more to having a child than a desire to pass one's genes on. I'm going to assume you mean that he wants the opportunity to be a father. Otherwise, for a woman to have a baby just so his 'genes' can be passed on is silly and degrading to the woman in question. As a parent, it's important to take into consideration whether or not you have the time or means to take care of a child. And one would hope that people take that into consideration before getting pregnant. Though I'm sure many do and take precautions to prevent pregnancy. But I'll tell you right here and now, there's nothing worse than forcing motherhood on someone who is not ready. Being a parent is extremely demanding even with a full partner to help with raising the kids. And I've been in both situations, married and divorced. Having kids to raise as a divorced mother is not easy. And I only have one left at home! But remember, though things are changing, more often than not it's the mother who gives up many of her aspirations and dreams to become a mother. It's something I'm happy with but for others it's not so simple. I'm going to throw the ball back into your court guys. If you want to be a father that badly, then you had better be sure she wants to be a mother as well. Not every woman out there wants to have children, it's not the ultimate achievement like it's often portrayed as in religion. So just as someone so crudely put it about not opening one's legs in the first place, I'll be equally as blunt. Don't be so quick to be the guy who[I] is [/I]between said legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChibiHorsewoman Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share Posted August 2, 2007 [quote name='Aaryanna_Mom']There should be more to having a child than a desire to pass one's genes on. I'm going to assume you mean that he wants the opportunity to be a father. Otherwise, for a woman to have a baby just so his 'genes' can be passed on is silly and degrading to the woman in question. As a parent, it's important to take into consideration whether or not you have the time or means to take care of a child. And one would hope that people take that into consideration before getting pregnant. Though I'm sure many do and take precautions to prevent pregnancy. But I'll tell you right here and now, there's nothing worse than forcing motherhood on someone who is not ready. Being a parent is extremely demanding even with a full partner to help with raising the kids. And I've been in both situations, married and divorced. Having kids to raise as a divorced mother is not easy. And I only have one left at home! But remember, though things are changing, more often than not it's the mother who gives up many of her aspirations and dreams to become a mother. It's something I'm happy with but for others it's not so simple. I'm going to throw the ball back into your court guys. If you want to be a father that badly, then you had better be sure she wants to be a mother as well. Not every woman out there wants to have children, it's not the ultimate achievement like it's often portrayed as in religion. So just as someone so crudely put it about not opening one's legs in the first place, I'll be equally as blunt. Don't be so quick to be the guy who[I] is [/I]between said legs.[/QUOTE] [color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]I'm just going to second what Aaryanna's mom said. Because it's the truth Having a child is a huge responsibility. And if you're not ready for it then you'll get overwhelmed beyond belief. Trust me I know- and I never had the benefit of an extra set of hands to help me directly with my daughter. Yes, bringing up a child is an amzing thing because you get to watch them grow and contribute to their up bringing. But there are times where you just want to sit in a corner and start rocking because you feel like you're about to lose your mind. There I finally poked my head back into this chat.[/color][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachmaninoff Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 [quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]Wow, a lot of you people must really think little of your fathers. Seriously, when you've gone and hugged your mom, go and hug your dad if he's been there for you your entire life, because apparently by the sentiment here, he didn't have to be.[/SIZE][/quote]Others have already addressed this but how in the world did you get the idea that I was implying they wouldn't be a good father? I thought we were talking about the right to have an abortion, not to be a parent. In that moment, regardless of anything else, having the guy around who got her pregnant in the first place is a non-issue in that her body is the one that will result in a baby should she decide to keep it. Aaryanna_Mom put it best, even if I was married or with a girl I got pregnant, which by the way I have never done. If she does not want a baby and really feels that way, there's no way in hell I would try to force her to. If I ever do get married and have kids I want it to be something we both decide on, not a battle. In the end, if they are in a healthy relationship they'll work it out together. And for those relationships that aren't why complicate them by making it even harder for a woman who does not want kids at that time? Sure there are guys out there who will make great fathers, but at the same time, one would think they would realize that forcing that on someone isn't the best way to go about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alterna X Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Im somewhat neutral- I believe that if your going to take on the responsibility of having sex *and yes its a responsibility, young and old) then you should take on the responsibility of a kid. That is, if you do get pregnant after all. But if someone came up and asked me what to do, I wouldn't exactly tell them that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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