Gaming Nintendo GameCube

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]That said, I agree with Blue Jihad, OOT pwns TWW. Haven't played TP yet so I can't give an opinion there.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]Only if you're blind. :p Even though I like OOT better than TWW... Tww in it's own way, especially with the more cartoonish graphics, it's quite epic. The graphics were engaging, all the funny expressions were fantastic, the quests to not only find the maps for the tri-force as well as the other aspects of the game, was a lot of fun. Toss in good music and fun new characters and it was more than worthy to be a part of the Zelda series. That and I loved all the fun new equipment you got to play with.

So regardless of what anyone says, if you do get a gamecube, Tww is definately one of the games you'll want to get. [/COLOR]

[Kenshin DX]

No one said [B]Metal Gear Solid The Twin Snakes[/B].

It's a remake of the original MGS. Huge graphic overhaul , first person aiming , new cut scenes , extended VA. While the game has identical level design and boss fights. It's great if you never played the original MGS. Even if you have it is still great to go back and play it revamped.

Everyone who recomended [B]Sonic Adventure 2[/B] go shoot yourself. Seriously Sonic
was only good for it's time when it was on the DC and even then it was pretty crappy.

[B]F-Zero[/B] is an extrmely diffucult game so prepare for a challenge.

[B]RE4 [/B]is only slighty better on GC because it has slightly better graphics annd a more comfortable control scheme. RE4 for PS2 has a lot more content then the GC version.

[B]Tales of Symphonia[/B] is a great game which is also 4 player coop. It's a fun, fast ,action RPG.

No one said [B]Pikmin 2[/B] either. A unique and clever strategy game.

[Korey]

[quote name='Kenshin DX']No one said [B]Metal Gear Solid The Twin Snakes[/B].

It's a remake of the original MGS. Huge graphic overhaul , first person aiming , new cut scenes , extended VA. While the game has identical level design and boss fights. It's great if you never played the original MGS. Even if you have it is still great to go back and play it revamped.

Everyone who recomended [B]Sonic Adventure 2[/B] go shoot yourself. Seriously Sonic
was only good for it's time when it was on the DC and even then it was pretty crappy.

[B]F-Zero[/B] is an extrmely diffucult game so prepare for a challenge.

[B]RE4 [/B]is only slighty better on GC because it has slightly better graphics annd a more comfortable control scheme. RE4 for PS2 has a lot more content then the GC version.

[B]Tales of Symphonia[/B] is a great game which is also 4 player coop. It's a fun, fast ,action RPG.

No one said [B]Pikmin 2[/B] either. A unique and clever strategy game.[/QUOTE]

I said Sonic Adventure 2. I recommended it because I never took a shining to Mario: Sunshine and any other platformer/adventure game, so I suggested it. I also liked the multiplayer options on the GC version. So I will abstain for the shooting myself, thank you. I'm sticking with my suggestion

F-Zero- is not as hard as you would think it to be. It takes time to learn, just like other games. The sense of speed is just plain awesome though. A good racer to back up Mario Kart too.

MGS: TS was okay and I liked all the new stuff, but there was something nostalgic about the original version on the PSX. I personally thought it a waste of money, because the game was epic without all the new gameplay options. So I don't think it's a must buy. Unless you haven't played the original game.

[Kenshin DX]

[quote name='Korey']I said Sonic Adventure 2. I recommended it because I never took a shining to Mario: Sunshine and any other platformer/adventure game, so I suggested it. I also liked the multiplayer options on the GC version. So I will abstain for the shooting myself, thank you. I'm sticking with my suggestion

F-Zero- is not as hard as you would think it to be. It takes time to learn, just like other games. The sense of speed is just plain awesome though. A good racer to back up Mario Kart too.

MGS: TS was okay and I liked all the new stuff, but there was something nostalgic about the original version on the PSX. I personally thought it a waste of money, because the game was epic without all the new gameplay options. So I don't think it's a must buy. Unless you haven't played the original game.[/QUOTE]

Sonic Adventure 2 sucked. Ill gladly shoot you if you dont want to. Super Mario Sunshine was an amazing platformer. SA2 did so many things wrong. The hunting and shooting levels were awful. Sonic and Shadow were the only fun parts but it lagged and the camera couldnt keep up. The only thing good about the game was the final battle. I was a huge fan of SA when it was on the DC then at the end of the DCs lifespan this piece of crap was released which was another nail in SEGAs coften. Vs mode and Chao raising don't help this game either.

F-Zero wasn't a bad game. The story was decent and it was fast. But it always felt like you were slower then everyone else was. So it was a huge pain. Mario Kart completely owned that game though. Nothing beats Mario Kart 64 or even Double Dash. For F-Zero I think the SNES version was better then the GC one.

MGSTTS wasn't popular because people were pissed that it was not on a Sony system. Some also felt it was stupid to remake a classic. I think it was great. It could get gamers into the MGS series without having to play the horribly outdated original. The only thing that sucked about it was tey took away all the girls sexy accents:animeshy:

[Korey]

[quote name='Kenshin DX']Sonic Adventure 2 sucked. Ill gladly shoot you if you dont want to. Super Mario Sunshine was an amazing platformer. SA2 did so many things wrong. The hunting and shooting levels were awful. Sonic and Shadow were the only fun parts but it lagged and the camera couldnt keep up. The only thing good about the game was the final battle. I was a huge fan of SA when it was on the DC then at the end of the DCs lifespan this piece of crap was released which was another nail in SEGAs coften. Vs mode and Chao raising don't help this game either.[/QUOTE]

[FONT="Georgia"][SIZE="1"]Again, I stick with my suggestion. I did play Super Mario Sunshine and thought it was great, [B][I]however[/I][/B] I think that as far as games go, SA2 Battle did merit attention in my eyes. Don' shoot me down over a matter of personal prefence my friend. I did like SA2 on the DC better, but I think that if you missed out on that, the GC version would be great.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[quote name='KenshinDX']F-Zero wasn't a bad game. The story was decent and it was fast. But it always felt like you were slower then everyone else was. So it was a huge pain. Mario Kart completely owned that game though. Nothing beats Mario Kart 64 or even Double Dash. For F-Zero I think the SNES version was better then the GC one.[/quote]

[SIZE="1"][FONT="Georgia"]I liked the SNES version better as well....and I would even say that the one released on the GBA deserves credit for going back to the roots of the series and creating another classic FZero. I liked Fzero 64 just fine and FZero GC was good as well. No one can top Mario Kart because it has a massive fan base and the game is really fun to play at parties. F Zero doesn't have that quality, but it's still a quality title. I have to bring this up though....if you play above 100cc in any Mario Kart Game, you are automatically slower than the computer too.....^_~[/FONT][/SIZE]
[quote name='KenshinDX']MGSTTS wasn't popular because people were pissed that it was not on a Sony system. Some also felt it was stupid to remake a classic. I think it was great. It could get gamers into the MGS series without having to play the horribly outdated original. The only thing that sucked about it was tey took away all the girls sexy accents:animeshy:[/quote]

[SIZE="1"][FONT="Georgia"]I too believed that MGSTTS was not needed. The game didn't need a remake, at all. How can you justify evolution in the series when you go back to the original game and give it all new features? I think Konami should have left that one alone and just plugged ahead with the other projects. Nothing against the game, it was a solid (excuse the pun) experience. However, I already know the story....the ending and stuff like that. I payed 20 bucks for the original MGS, why would I waste money to buy the essentialy same game but with new additions? That's why I never liked expansion packs to MMO's. If you just brought down the servers for like, 2 days and added all the stuff, then we could just get on with our lives. We bought the damn game, we pay to play, why heap on more payments on us? But I digress.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[Gavin]

[quote name='indifference'][COLOR="Indigo"]Only if you're blind. :p Even though I like OOT better than TWW... Tww in it's own way, especially with the more cartoonish graphics, it's quite epic. The graphics were engaging, all the funny expressions were fantastic, the quests to not only find the maps for the tri-force as well as the other aspects of the game, was a lot of fun. Toss in good music and fun new characters and it was more than worthy to be a part of the Zelda series. That and I loved all the fun new equipment you got to play with.

So regardless of what anyone says, if you do get a gamecube, Tww is definitely one of the games you'll want to get. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Do you just post to disagree with me Crystia ? I'd have thought a mod would have better things to do. :p I'm just kidding.

Seriously though I agree with everything you'd said about The Wind Waker, it was an utterly awesome game, but if we're to look past graphics at pure gameplay, because, to quote Kill Bill's Bill, I am all about the old school, then Ocarina of Time is the superior game. That said, people should just buy both and get a double helping to LoZ goodness. [/SIZE]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='Gavin;785719][SIZE="1"]Do you just post to disagree with me Crystia ? I'd have thought a mod would have better things to do. :p I'm just kidding.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]You mean you only just now realized this? :p [[SIZE="1"]I kid[/SIZE]][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"']Seriously though I agree with everything you'd said about The Wind Waker, it was an utterly awesome game, but if we're to look past graphics at pure gameplay, because, to quote Kill Bill's Bill, I am all about the old school, then Ocarina of Time is the superior game. That said, people should just buy both and get a double helping to LoZ goodness. [/SIZE][/quote]Besides, in case you forgot, I did say I like OOT better. I was simply pointing out that people bash TWW and yet fail to realize what a great game it is. I've beaten it three times since I got that much fun out of playing it. And in a while I'm sure I'll beat it a forth time. Since I like the option to replay with certain features available that weren't the first time around. Like [spoiler]having all those conversations in the ancient language acutally make sense. That was a fun little bit to add in my opinion[/spoiler]

And yes I definately recommend both games since as you put it, it's a double helping of LOZ goodness. In fact I need to actually finish the Master Quest since I got stuck and never went back to playing it. [/COLOR]

[Kenshin DX]

I respect your opinion Korey but if you are saying that SA2 is a better purchase then MGSTTS you are insane. SA was the reason I bought a DC it blew me away when the DC came out and I got it at launch. However when you are a kid you are retarded. So I could look past the games HUGE flaws. All the levels except for Sonics sucked so bad(fishing anyone?). After finishing the game I loved it especially the final fight with Super Sonic and Chaos Ultimate. If I go back and play SA again I would have more fun being trapped in an elevator for 5 hours which is the games length. When SA2 came out for the DC my I realized how bad SA really was. They made absoultely no improvements. Aside from cutting most of the BS missions out. Like I said before it was another nail in SEGAs coffin. After playing this game I knew the DC was dead.

MGSTTS was a great game since you could go back and play the classic. Try going back to playing FFVII and you will bleed from your eyes. Those games were good for their time but they don't hold up well. With MGS you could replay a better version of a classic game.

MGSTTS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SA2

But if you liked SA2 thats cool. Just don't say it's better then MGSTTS.

[Gavin]

[quote name='indifference'][COLOR="Indigo"]You mean you only just now realized this? :p [[SIZE="1"]I kid[/SIZE]][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Well I suspected you just couldn't resist my devilish Irish charm. :p[/SIZE]

[quote name='indifference'][COLOR="Indigo"]Besides, in case you forgot, I did say I like OOT better. I was simply pointing out that people bash TWW and yet fail to realize what a great game it is. I've beaten it three times since I got that much fun out of playing it. And in a while I'm sure I'll beat it a forth time. Since I like the option to replay with certain features available that weren't the first time around. Like [spoiler]having all those conversations in the ancient language actually make sense. That was a fun little bit to add in my opinion[/spoiler][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Heh, I never bashed TWW, I merely agree with Alex. And on your spoiler point, [spoiler]It was cool reading it all in plain English the second time around, though I'd rather have kept the green tunic as well.[/spoiler][/SIZE]

[quote name='indifference'][COLOR="Indigo"]And yes I definitely recommend both games since as you put it, it's a double helping of LOZ goodness. In fact I need to actually finish the Master Quest since I got stuck and never went back to playing it. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I keep meaning to get the Collector's Edition so I can play OOT again, but for some reason I keep forgetting. Might buy a Wii after all then.[/SIZE]

[Korey]

[quote name='Kenshin DX']
But if you liked SA2 thats cool. Just don't say it's better then MGSTTS.[/QUOTE]

Did I say MGSTTS was worse than SA2? Cause I don't remember saying it was. I do however remember saying that MGSTTS was a total waste of developer dollars. I did think that SA2 was frickin awesome on the DC when I was younger. My eighth grade mind thought it was the coolest game ever. Maybe I got nostalgic when I recommended it, I don't know. I don't think it was the nail in Sega's coffin though. Maybe it was because Sega released a system during a time where much better systems were set to come out and got blown away due to lack of first party support.....or maybe devlopers started to sway towards better technology and support from a better hardware developer....I don't know;)

[Kenshin DX]

[quote name='Korey']Did I say MGSTTS was worse than SA2? Cause I don't remember saying it was. I do however remember saying that MGSTTS was a total waste of developer dollars. I did think that SA2 was frickin awesome on the DC when I was younger. My eighth grade mind thought it was the coolest game ever. Maybe I got nostalgic when I recommended it, I don't know. I don't think it was the nail in Sega's coffin though. Maybe it was because Sega released a system during a time where much better systems were set to come out and got blown away due to lack of first party support.....or maybe devlopers started to sway towards better technology and support from a better hardware developer....I don't know;)[/QUOTE]

OK you lost all credibiltiy when you said nostalgia. Of course it's always going to be better when you are a lot younger and have horrible taste in games. The DC was one of the greatest video game consoles ever made. SA was it's Mario 64 (but nowhere near as good as it). Soul Caliber , JGR , Power Stone , Power Stone 2 , Skies of Arcadia ,PSO and the two best games ever created Shenmue , Shenmue 2. The DC had amazing software it was also the first gaming console to go online. It was boned because it didn't have a DVD drive. It was targeted at hardcore gamers to begin with. DC did a lot for gaming and it was better then the PS2 for 2 years after PS2 was released. Sadly it died and SA2 as one of it's trump cards failed horribly. So yes SA2 could have kept the DC going for a bit longer but it was such a failure of a game it couldn't.

[BlueYoshi]

[color=darkred]Guys, recommending what games to get or not to get is cool, but your discussion is starting to get a bit personal and off-topic and is sort of derailing the purpose of the thread, so please could you continue this over PM or IM?[/color] :)

[Guest The Blue Jihad]

The thing about TWW is that yeah it's a great game, but like Gavin said, if you stack it against other Zelda games, it kind of pales in comparison. I love TWW just as much as the next guy, and it's one of the very few GCN games I haven't gotten rid of. But as fun as the game is, it's incredibly easy, it doesn't have a solid number of dungeons, and while I loved the sailing and exploration, it just didn't quite click on repeated playthroughs.

Loved the style of TWW more than anything. It had enormous potential, especially when it came to facial expressions and general character emotion. I was sad to see it go in TP. Haha come to think of it, I was sad to see fun and engaging characters missing in TP. It was a very monotone game.

OoT, on the other hand, has an intensity that removes your testicles. And to an extent, so does TWW, although they end up caressing them more than gripping.

[Gavin]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']T I love TWW just as much as the next guy, and it's one of the very few GCN games I haven't gotten rid of. But as fun as the game is, [B]it's incredibly easy[/B], OoT, on the other hand, has an intensity that removes your testicles.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]That's really the only aspect to the game that bothered me, I don't know how many times I died in Ocarina of Time going through the dungeons, but I'm positive I never died once playing The Wind Waker, it wasn't even a case of just spamming health potions or collecting hearts, it was just the game was so easy by comparison to other Legend of Zeldas.[/SIZE]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]That's really the only aspect to the game that bothered me, I don't know how many times I died in Ocarina of Time going through the dungeons, but I'm positive [B]I never died once playing The Wind Waker[/B], it wasn't even a case of just spamming health potions or collecting hearts, it was just the game was so easy by comparison to other Legend of Zeldas.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]Well I died plenty of times, but then The Wind Waker was my first Zelda game. XP And even though the others were harder, they weren't anywhere as cute and engaging as The Wind Waker was. I liked Twilight Princess, but I like the cell shading look better. Feh!

Anyway... As for the thread. I can't even imagine trading in my PS2, but then I just finally got one last year for my birthday and I already have a GameCube. And though it's not what you're asking, I'm curious as to what games you have played on PS2, since there just might be some really good ones out there that you've yet to play. It would kind of suck to trade it in only to realize there are games you wish you had played.

I mean, that would be my recommendation, but then I've just discovered Lunar: Silver Star Story and Lunar 2 Eternal Blue for PS1. Those two games, even though they are the older style of playing are wicked fun. :catgirl:[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Kenshin DX]

[quote name='Bombu'][color=darkred]Guys, recommending what games to get or not to get is cool, but your discussion is starting to get a bit personal and off-topic and is sort of derailing the purpose of the thread, so please could you continue this over PM or IM?[/color] :)[/QUOTE]

My bad I have a tendency to derail threads:animeswea.

After playing more of Tales of Symphonia I highly recomend it. It's story keeps getting better and better and the combat system gets surprisingly deeper the more you progress. Definetly pick it up.

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]The thing that makes TWW sit even with OoT for me is that TWW's combat is much, much more fun. I can spend twenty minutes just massacring the baddies in the Shark Island cave over and over and not get bored whereas OoT has a severe lack of enemies throughout the entire game and what enemies there are are usually dinky little things you can kill in one or two hits.

Difficulty, while there is a marked difference between the two, doesn't hold a lot of sway with me. OoT is already easy enough that I beat it without ever dying on my first time through?and I was only eleven years old at the time?so neither poses a decent challenge.

OoT really shines when it comes to its dungeons. Nine full dungeons plus a few mini-dungeons like the Ice Cavern give OoT a definite edge over TWW. And that was my main disappointment with TWW; the huge ocean to sail around and explore was pretty cool, but it couldn't make up for only having five full and one mini dungeon.

And I still don't see how you can hold OoT in such high regard while also bashing TP, Alex. TP improves on or at least breaks even with OoT in every single way. I'm playing through OoT again right now and it feels dated in so many ways. Only the dungeon design has really held up well, and that's what keeps me playing it. (Well, that along with my mission of recording some sweet boss ownage.) The simplicity of the combat and the clunkiness of the targeting especially seem so much worse after having played TP. Have you actually played OoT again since playing TP, or are you looking back through rose-colored glasses?[/color]

[Magus]

[quote name='Aaryanna'][COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Anyway... As for the thread. I can't even imagine trading in my PS2, but then I just finally got one last year for my birthday and I already have a GameCube. And though it's not what you're asking, I'm curious as to what games you have played on PS2, since there just might be some really good ones out there that you've yet to play. It would kind of suck to trade it in only to realize there are games you wish you had played.

I mean, that would be my recommendation, but then I've just discovered Lunar: Silver Star Story and Lunar 2 Eternal Blue for PS1. Those two games, even though they are the older style of playing are wicked fun. :catgirl:[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[color=gray]I've had my PS2 for quite some time now. (I'd say about 5 years now.) And most of the games I've been playing haven't been very satisfying. It's been like, buy this game, weeks (months) later, I'm trading that same game in with others that seem to have been dying out on me to buy another game that I would quickly lose interest in.

As for your curiousity, lets see.
Metal Gear Solid 2 & 3
God of Wa
Devil May Cry 1 & 3
Onimusha 1, (hated it because of them silly controls) 3 & 4
Final Fantasy X
Xenosaga 2
Star Ocean
Shadow Hearts: Covenant
Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne
Rogue Galaxy
Kingdom Hearts 1 & 2
X-Men Legends 1 & 2
Radiata Stories
Marvel Ultimate Alliance
Prince of Persia 1 & 3
Gran Turismo 3
Need for Speed Underground 2
NBA 2k6
Gungrave: Overdose
Dead or Alive: Hardcore
Soul Calibur 2
Tekken Tag Tournament
Tekken 5
The Bouncer
Virtua Fighter 4
Street Fighter Anniversary
Samurai Warriors
Dynasty Warriors 4
Matrix: Path of Neo
Dragon Quest VIII
Ultimate Spider-Man
DBZ Budokai 1-3
Naruto Ultimate Ninja
Indigo Prophecy
Killzone

I think that's about it. (Btw, I only own about 8 games out of all of that now, lol.) Majority of those games I've barely even played, but never found myself coming back to play them so I just went on ahead and chucked them. (Can't help it. I get bored of games real quick if I don't find them to be that great, or I've beaten them so many times to the point that there is no reason to play them again.) While I tend to be very closed-minded about my games I think I've become a little bit more open. (Alot more open if I'm thinking about going for a GameCube ;D)

Other options are to trade the ps2 in for a dreamcast and psx, or an xbox, and just wait a bit to get my games.[/color]

[Korey]

[quote name='Bombu'][color=darkred]Guys, recommending what games to get or not to get is cool, but your discussion is starting to get a bit personal and off-topic and is sort of derailing the purpose of the thread, so please could you continue this over PM or IM?[/color] :)[/QUOTE]

I hear you...no more. I surrender! I'm tired of arguing when we should be glorifying games that were on the GC.

I think TP trumps OoT in some respects, but not others. I agree with Des about the Dungeons. Nine dungeons was great and I enjoyed most of them, espcially the water temple. Now looking back at it....I still think that OoT is a great game than can hold up to some other games in this generation and teach them a thing or two about level development. I think that the Wii combat on TP is really cool and intuitive, and the way I play, I look like a Wii-tard swinging around my sword making Link's various yelps and grunts. But it's all in good fun.

If you like easier DDR games and you always wondered what it would be like to have Mario Dance fight whoever he meets then I would suggest DDR: Mario Mix. It's no where near as challenging as other console releases, but if you wanted to play the Mario theme song on a DDR pad, then have at it. I picked it up, and I thought it was okay. Some songs were actually challenging, but playing on the hardest difficulty setting was easier than it should have been. It's worth a rent in my opinion.

[Guest The Blue Jihad]

It's quite simple, Des. And easy.

Everything about TP screamed mediocrity. Whether it was the characters, presentation, pacing, or dungeons, it was all exceedingly average. Nothing was ever vibrant.

In TP, we had one solid character. Midna. She stole the game. Then again, that's not very hard to do when there was absolutely nothing being done with the rest of the cast. Link had two facial expressions with nothing in-between. Zelda, nothing remarkable. The nameless, faceless tertiary citizens of Hyrule might as well had not even been in the game.

None of the villains (bosses included) had any personality, either. Or when a boss did show some sort of flair, he was [spoiler]a monkey slapping his ***[/spoiler]. That's not funny. It's not amusing. It's just lame. And really, the Ganon/Zant backstory was just as terrible. I mean, who the hell cares about some Stargate extra being used as a puppet? I sure don't. Especially when Ganon is (and always has been) the ultimate bad-*** in the Zelda series.

Even the persistent enemies in TP suffered from lack of creative refinement. They looked like frigging Tron rejects, for crying out loud...but had none of the sinister aura we saw in that movie.

Nearly every character in the game was as drab and muted as the general washed-out color scheme of the game and landscapes.

And boy were the landscapes in TP flat and boring. There was a lot of ground there (much more than in OoT) but most of it was just straight-up dead space. I mean, take TP's Hyrule Field, for example. Yeah, that's a big chunk of land, but it was almost completely empty, save for those random rocks and trees. Granted, even OoT's Hyrule Field had its share of random rocks and trees, but at least OoT's limitations were hardware-related. In TP it's due to sloppy and lazy design. What's the attraction in a huge field with nothing in it?

And that field issue persists throughout the game. The forests end up being segmented chunks of floor with maybe a stump or two in each room. The desert was painfully empty...even for a desert.

Normally that wouldn't be [I]too[/I] bad, but the game has ****ing terrible pacing. Whether it's the fetch-quest bits with the wolf that just grind the game to a halt, having to circumnavigate the [I]long way[/I] around because a bridge got knocked out, or the completely forced dungeon order, it's all mind-numbingly restrictive.

You wonder why I hold OoT over TP? Because we have similar issues in OoT, but nowhere near as bad.

We had some lame characters in OoT (Navi, anyone?) but generally, the characters had personality. Even the dumb ones. The approach to their animation was better. The approach to their overall artistic design was better. Each character in OoT had [I]something[/I] interesting about them, even if that "something" was a man sitting in the town square, fapping himself. Very few of the characters (especially the main cast) in OoT were interchangeable.

I'm tired. Weird day. So I'll make these last bits brief.

The pacing in OoT was infinitely better, largely because we weren't locked into a very particular order of dungeon completion. Being able to knock out the Water Temple, then Fire Temple, then Forest Temple is testament to how exceptional the game design is. Come to think of it, most of Hyrule is readily accessible to the player at the start of the game. There is no "GO AROUND THE FAR SIDE OF THE MAP" ******** in OoT.

Dungeon-wise, the Water Temple in TP was way too watered-down (no pun intended) to hold a candle to OoT's. Generally, all of the dungeons felt watered-down. And not to harp on this point, but TP had some of the most embarrassing boss fights I've ever played *cough*Forest Temple*cough*

Sure, the combat in OoT is ancient by today's standards. But in all honesty, everything else kicks the shat out of TP. And sure, OoT's combat is much simpler. Sure, TP added in a lot of little moves and such. But TP is worse for it, because the combat just ended up turning to mush.

So you have OoT, an utterly vibrant, dynamic, and stylish action game with a fantastic cast of genuine and genuinely entertaining characters, and TP, which ranks up there as one of the most muted and even-tempered games in recent memory.

If you're suggesting a Zelda title...why wouldn't you recommend OoT?

[Desbreko]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']In TP, we had one solid character. Midna. She stole the game. Then again, that's not very hard to do when there was absolutely nothing being done with the rest of the cast. Link had two facial expressions with nothing in-between. Zelda, nothing remarkable. The nameless, faceless tertiary citizens of Hyrule might as well had not even been in the game.[/quote][color=#4B0082]You actually like the generic, "You're a hero, please save us/thanks for saving us!" dialogue that every last character in OoT spews out? It sounded epic and exciting back when I was eleven, sure, but now it sounds like the script is taken straight out of a children's picture book, with the exception of Sheik's lines. I thought TP's cast had a lot more personality; from the cowardly little kid to the busty bartender and her cat, most of their lines felt a lot less forced.[/color]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']None of the villains (bosses included) had any personality, either. Or when a boss did show some sort of flair, he was [spoiler]a monkey slapping his ***[/spoiler]. That's not funny. It's not amusing. It's just lame. And really, the Ganon/Zant backstory was just as terrible. I mean, who the hell cares about some Stargate extra being used as a puppet? I sure don't. Especially when Ganon is (and always has been) the ultimate bad-*** in the Zelda series.

Even the persistent enemies in TP suffered from lack of creative refinement. They looked like frigging Tron rejects, for crying out loud...but had none of the sinister aura we saw in that movie.[/quote][color=#4B0082]OoT's bosses are okay but most don't seem like anything special to me. Volvagia is pretty cool I suppose, but Argorok was just as fun to fight. And Bongo Bongo is just downright silly.

The story with Zant was basically the same thing we saw back in A Link to the Past with Agahnim, just fleshed out a little more. Anyone with any decent knowledge of the Zelda series will be able to see the whole puppet thing coming from the time they beat the Water Temple and I don't think we were supposed to care much about Zant in the first place. I personally laughed my *** off when he turned out to be such a little wanker. And at least TP's story didn't just rehash LttP's like OoT did.

The fact that there are persistent enemies at all in TP is an improvement.[/color]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']And boy were the landscapes in TP flat and boring. There was a lot of ground there (much more than in OoT) but most of it was just straight-up dead space. I mean, take TP's Hyrule Field, for example. Yeah, that's a big chunk of land, but it was almost completely empty, save for those random rocks and trees. Granted, even OoT's Hyrule Field had its share of random rocks and trees, but at least OoT's limitations were hardware-related. In TP it's due to sloppy and lazy design. What's the attraction in a huge field with nothing in it?

And that field issue persists throughout the game. The forests end up being segmented chunks of floor with maybe a stump or two in each room. The desert was painfully empty...even for a desert.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Compared to some other games the landscape in TP might be kind of barren, but compared to OoT it's still an improvement. There are more little caves and secrets that aren't just that generic room with a few bushes, a fish, some bee hives, and a chest that you see [i]everywhere[/i] in OoT. The desert, for example, isn't as empty as you might think; there's a fair amount of stuff scattered around it, including the Cave of Ordeals, if you look. Certainly more than OoT's desert had to offer.[/color]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']Normally that wouldn't be [I]too[/I] bad, but the game has ****ing terrible pacing. Whether it's the fetch-quest bits with the wolf that just grind the game to a halt, having to circumnavigate the [I]long way[/I] around because a bridge got knocked out, or the completely forced dungeon order, it's all mind-numbingly restrictive.[/quote][color=#4B0082]I liked the wolf sections. They made you think about how to reach places and do things in wolf form, working around your limitations and making use of your new abilities. Classic Zelda-style environmental puzzles with a new twist. Sure, they were fetch quests at their core but if you want to get anal over that, that's all Zelda games are to begin with. You collect Triforce pieces/crystals/instruments/medallions/whatever so you can beat the final baddie and that's that.

The overworld in TP is slightly more restricted than in OoT, I'll give you that. But really, it's not like you aren't led around by the hand in OoT either. (Hey! Listen!) It's still pointless to go to areas before you're supposed to because, even if you can get there, you can't do anything. So sure, you can run around to Kakariko Village, Gerudo Valley, Lake Hylia, and Zora's River right after leaving the forest, but all you can do is collect a couple pieces of heart and a bottle a little early.

And being able to do the Fire/Water Temples and Shadow/Spirit Temples in either order (Forest Temple has to come first to get the bow) doesn't seem like such a big deal to me. They're still the same dungeons no matter what order you do them in. Completing them out of order is a novelty, nothing more.[/color]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']Dungeon-wise, the Water Temple in TP was way too watered-down (no pun intended) to hold a candle to OoT's. Generally, all of the dungeons felt watered-down. And not to harp on this point, but TP had some of the most embarrassing boss fights I've ever played *cough*Forest Temple*cough*[/quote][color=#4B0082]TP's Water Temple doesn't even try to follow the same design as OoT's Water Temple. It's more akin to the Spirit Temple, with its two distinct halves.

We're in agreement about TP's boss fights being stupidly easy. But they were big and fun to kill?something I can't say for a few of OoT's bosses. Even on my first time through I was disappointed by King Dodongo, Morpha, Bongo Bongo, and Ganon.[/color]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']Sure, the combat in OoT is ancient by today's standards. But in all honesty, everything else kicks the shat out of TP. And sure, OoT's combat is much simpler. Sure, TP added in a lot of little moves and such. But TP is worse for it, because the combat just ended up turning to mush.[/quote][color=#4B0082]The combat in OoT is horribly simple and boring. The added moves in TP bring some much needed variety to the table, along with more types of baddies; its combat is so much deeper because of that. Simply mashing the B button (or jiggling the remote depending on what version you're playing) doesn't get you nearly as far as it does in OoT.

Also, I find it really sad that I use secondary items simply in traversing terrain and dungeons and not even for combat more than I do my sword in OoT. That's the biggest thing I'm thankful for that TP fixed.[/color]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']If you're suggesting a Zelda title...why wouldn't you recommend OoT?[/QUOTE][color=#4B0082]Don't get me wrong, I'd definitely recommend OoT. But, at the same time, I have to note that I find TP to be superior.[/color]

[Guest The Blue Jihad]

[quote name='Desbreko']You actually like the generic, "You're a hero, please save us/thanks for saving us!" dialogue that every last character in OoT spews out?[/quote]

What I "actually like" is how much better the approach to animation is in OoT. I don't give two shits about the generic "You're a hero" dialogue. Because until the Zelda series includes voice acting, the dialogue will take a backseat to the animation, because the animation is what's going to be used to convey emotion. And when it came to animation, TP failed miserably. It looked prettier, sure. Characters moved more easily, yeah. But there was nothing there beyond that. Even the slutty barmaid had completely vapid stares when she was trying to look sly, Des.

See, the problem with TP was that they were trying to use a more subtle style of animation, but handled it so clumsily that the characters looked and smiled like they were fresh out of a lobotomy. If given the choice between simple yet vibrant facial expressions (OoT) and lobotomy patients (TP) there's just no contest.

[quote]OoT's bosses are okay but most don't seem like anything special to me. Volvagia is pretty cool I suppose, but Argorok was just as fun to fight. And Bongo Bongo is just downright silly.[/quote]

Remember, though. TP has a boss fight where there's [I]a monkey slapping his ***[/I]. The best boss fight in TP was when you got to use the Spinner. Everything else was absolute dogshit, both in terms of design and difficulty. Oh, and at least even the sillier bosses in OoT still managed to seem just a bit threatening.

[quote]The story with Zant was basically the same thing we saw back in A Link to the Past with Agahnim, just fleshed out a little more.[/quote]

Yeah, and it's still ****ing stupid. It's still a clumsy and childish red herring that should have died on the SNES.

[quote]The fact that there are persistent enemies at all in TP is an improvement.[/quote]

Not when they're cutting room floor rejects from Tron.

[quote]Compared to some other games the landscape in TP might be kind of barren, but compared to OoT it's still an improvement.[/quote]

It's not an improvement, though. All that happened was they added in 10x the amount of land space and barely any extra content. The land space:content ratio got skewed even further in TP. There's more to do in the desert? Yeah, but think about how much larger they made the desert. Adding in a few tidbits means nothing when there's even more dead space than previous games.

[quote]I liked the wolf sections. They made you think about how to reach places and do things in wolf form[/quote]

Uh...not really. All you were doing in wolf form was looking for the next jump prompt. There was no thinking required. There was no problem solving going on there. There were no multiple solutions. All it was was a series of jump prompts.

[quote]Sure, they were fetch quests at their core but if you want to get anal over that, that's all Zelda games are to begin with. You collect Triforce pieces/crystals/instruments/medallions/whatever so you can beat the final baddie and that's that.[/quote]

Yeah, but nothing in the series short of the Triforce gathering in TWW has grinded the game to a frigging halt like in TP.

[quote]The overworld in TP is slightly more restricted than in OoT, I'll give you that.[/quote]

Slightly? Dude, there's a fricking bridge missing that forces you to go the long way around for easily a chunk of the first third of the game. And regarding your bit about Navi. That was one character and we wanted to maim her horribly for "HEY LISTEN!" In TP, that "HEY LISTEN!" basically became the entire game. On leaving the forest in OoT, a couple of pieces of heart and a bottle kick the shat out of...well, being unable to do anything in TP.

[quote]And being able to do the Fire/Water Temples and Shadow/Spirit Temples in either order (Forest Temple has to come first to get the bow) doesn't seem like such a big deal to me. They're still the same dungeons no matter what order you do them in. Completing them out of order is a novelty, nothing more.[/quote]

You don't see how it's a big deal when a 1998 game features some open-ended design? Switching up the dungeon order is a novelty? Try it sometime. Do Water Temple before Forest Temple. Go into the Forest Temple with the Zora Tunic, Iron Boots, and the Longshot. It's frigging awesome. Oh, and novelty...that's coming from a guy who's recorded himself beating which bosses without taking a hit? Yeaaa...I think you don't really have any room to talk here. lol

[quote]TP's Water Temple doesn't even try to follow the same design as OoT's Water Temple. It's more akin to the Spirit Temple, with its two distinct halves.[/quote]

It was still a stupid-simple design. And boring as hell, on top of that.

[quote]But they were big and fun to kill[/quote]

I'll give you the Spinner boss, whatever his name was. That was a fun boss fight. Other than that, though? OoT's Volvagia Whack-a-mole blows it all away, and you know it.

[quote]The added moves in TP bring some much needed variety to the table, along with more types of baddies; its combat is so much deeper because of that.[/quote]

No, its combat is mush because of that. More enemies and more moves mean nothing if the combat itself is sloppy as hell. Ignoring the fact that Link's movement is all relative and never absolute when in combat, which makes a side-hop a pain in the ***, most of the special moves themselves needed a lot more development time. Even something like the shield bash was implemented so clumsily and poorly that I question its very inclusion.

[quote]Also, I find it really sad that I use secondary items simply in traversing terrain and dungeons and not even for combat more than I do my sword in OoT. That's the biggest thing I'm thankful for that TP fixed.[/quote]

What? You...in OoT you're annoyed that you use your items to explore...and...there's more exploration than...combat? Or did you want to use the items a bit more in combat?

[quote]Don't get me wrong, I'd definitely recommend OoT. But, at the same time, I have to note that I find TP to be superior.[/quote]

OoT is the clear primary recommendation. It focuses on a small handful of design choices and does them incredibly well. TP tried to incorporate a whole lot of different ideas and never truly excelled at any of them. TP was the "jack of all trades, master of none."

[Goodbye, Face]

[font=arial][size=1]Guys, guys. Come on! You've already had your long-*** Zelda argument.[/font][/size]

[Desbreko]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']See, the problem with TP was that they were trying to use a more subtle style of animation, but handled it so clumsily that the characters looked and smiled like they were fresh out of a lobotomy. If given the choice between simple yet vibrant facial expressions (OoT) and lobotomy patients (TP) there's just no contest.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Again, have you actually played OoT recently? Characters have, at most, three facial expressions that are just as dumb looking as TP's: blank stare, stupid grin, and sad/shocked. That close-up of Zelda smiling at you when you first go meet her and agree to help looked so bad it made me grimace.[/color]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']Remember, though. TP has a boss fight where there's [I]a monkey slapping his ***[/I]. The best boss fight in TP was when you got to use the Spinner. Everything else was absolute dogshit, both in terms of design and difficulty. Oh, and at least even the sillier bosses in OoT still managed to seem just a bit threatening.

I'll give you the Spinner boss, whatever his name was. That was a fun boss fight. Other than that, though? OoT's Volvagia Whack-a-mole blows it all away, and you know it.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Come on, you know you loved the ***-slapping baboon.

I thought Argorok (the dragon) was the best TP boss fight. Stallord's pinball-like first round with the Spinner was fun but the second part was a bit annoying. Volvagia is definitely my top pick from OoT and Barinade is also pretty good, but the rest don't seem any better to me than TP's bosses. Bongo Bongo made me go, "WTF is that? I thought it was supposed to be some horrible shadow monster," before I laughed and completely owned it.[/color]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']It's not an improvement, though. All that happened was they added in 10x the amount of land space and barely any extra content. The land space:content ratio got skewed even further in TP. There's more to do in the desert? Yeah, but think about how much larger they made the desert. Adding in a few tidbits means nothing when there's even more dead space than previous games.[/quote][color=#4B0082]You must not be looking very hard if you're not finding much more stuff than in OoT. There's a lot more things out in the overworld in TP, from pieces of heart, to poes, to bugs, to rupees. Granted, you're practically swimming in rupees the entire game, but I still enjoy finding all the little secrets.[/color]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']Yeah, but nothing in the series short of the Triforce gathering in TWW has grinded the game to a frigging halt like in TP.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Dude, there's no comparison between the Triforce hunting and the wolf sections. The wolf sections are short and there's only three of them spread out across the first third of the game, rather than taking hours and all being packed together at the end.[/color]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']Slightly? Dude, there's a fricking bridge missing that forces you to go the long way around for easily a chunk of the first third of the game. And regarding your bit about Navi. That was one character and we wanted to maim her horribly for "HEY LISTEN!" In TP, that "HEY LISTEN!" basically became the entire game. On leaving the forest in OoT, a couple of pieces of heart and a bottle kick the shat out of...well, being unable to do anything in TP.[/quote][color=#4B0082]You mean the Bridge of Eldin? All it takes is beating the next dungeon and then going to the desert to fix it. Hardly a large chunk of the game. And after that you can also fix the bridge missing on the west side of Hyrule Castle Town.[/color]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']You don't see how it's a big deal when a 1998 game features some open-ended design? Switching up the dungeon order is a novelty? Try it sometime. Do Water Temple before Forest Temple. Go into the Forest Temple with the Zora Tunic, Iron Boots, and the Longshot. It's frigging awesome. Oh, and novelty...that's coming from a guy who's recorded himself beating which bosses without taking a hit? Yeaaa...I think you don't really have any room to talk here. lol[/quote][color=#4B0082]I'm pretty sure it's impossible to complete the Water Temple before getting the bow. There are eye switches that you have to shoot in order to get a couple of the keys. You can go in and get the Longshot, sure, but it's a waste of time if you're just going to have to hike back through it later.

And yes, completing dungeons out of order is a novelty. It's something I might do if I decide to play the game again but it hardly sways my decision to play back through in the first place. Same with making the recordings. I'm playing OoT again primarily because I just wanted to; the recordings are a fun thing to do on the side.[/color]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']No, its combat is mush because of that. More enemies and more moves mean nothing if the combat itself is sloppy as hell. Ignoring the fact that Link's movement is all relative and never absolute when in combat, which makes a side-hop a pain in the ***, most of the special moves themselves needed a lot more development time. Even something like the shield bash was implemented so clumsily and poorly that I question its very inclusion.[/quote][color=#4B0082]You really need to go back and play OoT again. lol

The sword swing and sidestep controls are all just as relative in OoT as they are in TP. Go try fighting Dark Link and see how many times you try to do a horizontal slash but end up stabbing instead, or try to sidestep but jump attack instead. Trust me, it'll be a lot.

Each special move in TP has its place and situations where it's useful. If you find them to be sloppy I'd say it's for lack of effort in figuring out how to use them properly. It's more difficult than in TWW where it does things for you automatically, and it took me a while to get good with some of them, but they can work just as well.[/color]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']What? You...in OoT you're annoyed that you use your items to explore...and...there's more exploration than...combat? Or did you want to use the items a bit more in combat?[/quote][color=#4B0082]I mean I find it sad that combat, which was half of what Zelda was about before OoT came along, got shunned to the point of there being only a few token enemies scattered around. Your sword should always be your most used item in a Zelda game because there should be plenty of things to kill. And thankfully that's been mostly fixed in TWW and TP because there are a lot more enemies.[/color]

[quote name='Goodbye, Face'][font=arial][size=1]Guys, guys. Come on! You've already had your long-*** Zelda argument.[/font][/size][/QUOTE][color=#4B0082]I'm bored and don't have anything else to do on OB. And besides, that was all about the Wii version's sword control; this is a general comparison of TP and OoT.[/color]

[Charles]

I'm going to have to ask you guys to regulate this discussion to private message instead of derailing the thread. We have a TP thread for a reason.

As for GameCube games, I saw Donkey Kong's Jungle Beat for $10, last week. I had initially only planned on buying Panzer Dragoon Orta, but I couldn't pass a deal like that up. Strangely enough, Jungle Beat is the first GameCube game I've purchased since Resident Evil 4. So, that's what? Two years?

At any rate, I'm really surprised with how awesome the game looks and how fun it is to control. I have to admit that it is somewhat tiring to play through more than a few levels in one sitting, but the combo system is fantastic and makes an otherwise simple game a lot of fun. And challenging to boot.

Great game, so far.