Assisted Suicide?

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy] I know this is a controversial issue and I don't think that we've had this topic on the boards. Also it kind of ties in with what my job includes because along with my mostly healthy patients I have two hospice patients. One of which was only given twenty-four hours to live yesturday when her nurse came to increase the dosage of her morphine.

I've had two ther patients like that one lasted two months and the other was in slow decline from MS. After a while it's painful to watch and no one should have to live in so much pain where they have to have hourly morphine drips just so they can be repositioned so their bedsores don't go from a stage 2 to a stage 4.

Now I live in New York state and right now Oregon is the only state in the union that allows assisted suicides and the person has to still be in their right state of mind to be allowed to obtain the medications that will kill them. I learned that when I had my hospice inservice and a death and dying unit for my HHA class.

I do want everyone to know that even though I am starting this thread I am opposed to assisted suicide. It goes against a lot of my personal beliefs. Yes it's hard to watch someone suffer, but it's not our place to decide when they will finally end. That decision belongs to whatever higher power you believe in (if any)

And now I have to go and get ready for work. So wish me luck and I hope this can generate some form of discussion.[/color][/font]

[Lethargy]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]Everyone dies when they are supposed to die, and if you disrupt this natural occurrence by choosing the time of one's demise, you are essentially playing God, Allah, Jehova, Jah, Seaxnéat, Amun, Zeus, Vishnu, Shiva, Brahman, Anshar, that rock, the sun, Bob Saget, or whatever higher power you believe or disbelieve in.

It is not one's place to decide when one shall leave this world.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[spy46]

i do TO A POINT agree with assisted suicide.

lets say i was .... a fire man and part of a building came down on me, every thing below my ribs are flat, but some how im still alive, but once all that crap is moved i will slowly bleed/leak what ever is still inside of me.

are you just going to let me sit there for .... 5 min slowly bleeding to death and you have to watch me go.

i say that with in certain conditions where there is no chance of a person EVER being able to survive for much longer, ether by some thing like this or old age is trying to send you to what ever higher power you belive in, and that person wants you to help them, and they are in a sound mind, i say help them.

a good example would also be that of war, im sure most if not all of us have seen a war movie where some one steps on a land mine, and every thing below the ribs are gone, personaly i would ask a bud if i was unable to reach my gun, to shoot me.

BUT if ..... i had AIDS, to list off a deadly sickness, i would fight it every step of the way because there is still hope with that.

so it all depends on the situation, am i in a condition that i can not survive, that i am suffering and people that i care about must watch me slowly waist a way, i would rather have a quick death, wouldnt you?

[Lethargy]

[quote name='spy46']i would rather have a quick death, wouldnt you?[/quote]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen] No. I wouldn't.

If there is no hope for someone, then why should they have their life ended five minutes prematurely? That is five minutes of their life lost. Sure, they might have been in excruciating pain, but at least they are alive. Killing someone who's dying is redundant.

[SIZE=2][COLOR=Black] [quote name='spy46']BUT if ..... i had AIDS, to list off a deadly sickness, i would fight it every step of the way because there is still hope with that.[/quote][/COLOR][/SIZE]

How does the amount of time someone has to live make a difference on whether or not someone should be assisted with their death? How does one instance of impending death warrant hope, and the other doesn't? Based on your logic, if there were two people dying, one of which had seven months to live, the other six, the latter should pretty much just give up and throw in the towel.

The point is, we are all going to die, so it's best to just ride it out and live each day to the fullest, even if each day is agonizingly painful. It will pass.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]Assisted suicide is always one of those topics that has too much personal belief invested into it to ever come out with a definitively "right" answer. I'm personally against the practice because as Lethargy summed up rather accurately, I don't believe it is my place to decide when I die, as it goes against my beliefs like CHW.

On the other hand however, I can perfectly understand how someone would feel if they were forced to watch one of their loved ones waste away from something like terminal cancer, and the belief that it is right and good to free them from this unnecessary pain at their request. I brought up terminal cancer due to the fact that I saw my uncle die from it a few years ago, though thankfully he did not suffer before he died.

In the end, it's up to people themselves to judge the right and wrong of it, and I don't think anyone has the right to try and change someone else's mind over it.[/SIZE]

[James P. Galvatron]

yeah there is no right or wrong answer to this question and I think are lord Bob Saget as Lethargy said would probably disagree with assisted suicide. Yet I think its up to that person to decide when they die you didn't have a say on when you were born nor did you have one on if you got that job you wanted, but I will be **** if I can't decide how and when I die when given the choice when there is no other alternative.

[Flagg]

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by [B]Lethargy[/B]
Everyone dies when they are supposed to die, and if you disrupt this natural occurrence by choosing the time of one's demise, you are essentially playing God, Allah, Jehova, Jah, Seaxnéat, Amun, Zeus, Vishnu, Shiva, Brahman, Anshar, that rock, the sun, Bob Saget, or whatever higher power you believe or disbelieve in.

It is not one's place to decide when one shall leave this world.[/QUOTE]

I consider myself as a human being a part of this world and as such I should have the right to choose if I die by my own hand and when. If I made the decision to die then who is to say that that is not when I was supposed to die? I don't believe in a higher power and I'm not trying to criticize one in any way but I do believe that my life is lived by none other then myself therefor I should be the one to have the most control over it.

[OMNOMNOMALY]

[FONT="Georgia"][quote name='Flagg']I consider myself as a human being a part of this world and as such I should have the right to choose if I die by my own hand and when. If I made the decision to die then who is to say that that is not when I was supposed to die? I don't believe in a higher power and I'm not trying to criticize one in any way but I do believe that my life is lived by none other then myself therefor I should be the one to have the most control over it.[/QUOTE]

I am in total agreement. Particularly because I too don't have a religion or believe in a higher power.

I would most definitely rather be killed quickly rather than be in so much agony. Did I lose those 5 extra minutes of my life? Yeah, I did. But they weren't particularly enjoyable so I can't say I'd be too upset to lose them. Pain is a part of life, yes. But if you're in so much pain that you're asking for death, why shouldn't you be granted that? It's mercy.

Killing someone who is dying is redundant, sure. But if you switched positions would you really rather see someone who means the world to you suffering immensely, rather than aiding them to achieve peace?

[quote name='Lethargy'][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]
The point is, we are all going to die, so it's best to just ride it out and live each day to the fullest, even if each day is agonizingly painful. It will pass.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I can appreciate where you're coming from, but really? If you're slowly wasting away in a hospital bed with absolutely no chance of recovery, and you're in extreme amounts of pain every second I fail to see how you're living every day to the fullest.[/FONT]

[Allamorph]

[QUOTE=Lethargy][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen][B]Everyone dies when they are supposed to die[/B], and if you disrupt this natural occurrence by choosing the time of one's demise, you are essentially playing God, Allah, Jehova, Jah, Seaxnéat, Amun, Zeus, Vishnu, Shiva, Brahman, Anshar, that rock, the sun, Bob Saget, or whatever higher power you believe or disbelieve in.

It is not one's place to decide when one shall leave this world.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]
[FONT=Arial]Hoo boy.

The bolded statement is true. However, one never knows when one is supposed to die until after one dies, so if you take your own life five minitues before it [I]would have[/I] expired anyway, doesn't that mean that you were [I]supposed[/I] to take your own life?

Causality is already a tricky enough subject. Let's not complicate it further with 'predestination' arguments, all righty?

To actually speak to the subject, I believe that suicide is wrong, from the cowardice angle. I also believe that a person is free to choose to commit suicide, even if I believe it's wrong and cowardly. I would not assist someone who wishes to take their own life, but I'm not sure I wouldn't turn a blind eye at the same time. I know I'd probably try to talk them out of it, but that only works if I could find in them the will to live somewhere, and they hadn't already replaced it with the will to die.

If I were in the position to kill myself, I know I would not. I care little enough for my own wishes already, so the motive for ending the pain would be gone. I would most likely be fighting to live so I could stay with my family and friends for as long as possible, to provide them with whatever hope/inspiration/counsel might be needed. But that's me, and I'm ideologically antiquated as it is.[/FONT]

[spy46]

ok what i was trying to say was, IF for example you were in the hospital and were going to die, but you are in extream pain as a result of what ever it is thats killing you.

there is no cure, you can not live with the pain as it rips thru your body every moment of every day that meds only dull it a little bit.

would you really want to keep onl living with that pain every day for a few more days?

or if you were that person that was in an accident and 70% of your body was crushed and the moment they move that thing, your going to spill your guts out all over the ground and just bleed to death, there is NO chance to survive.

i would ask the medic to give me some thing to die, or ask one of the cops there to shoot me and end the pain.

im not talking about some one that is said to have ...... 2 months to live that is not in pain, or some one that just wants to die, i mean some one that is suffering because of a sickness or an accident and is asking to be killed because it is too much for them.

[Rachmaninoff]

Personally, I believe that I don't have the right to make that choice for someone. If they are suffering and as of now cannot be cured, who am I to come along and force them to suffer more?[quote name='Lethargy;788234][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]Everyone dies when they are supposed to die, and if you disrupt this natural occurrence by choosing the time of one's demise, you are essentially playing God, Allah, Jehova, Jah, Seaxnéat, Amun, Zeus, Vishnu, Shiva, Brahman, Anshar, that rock, the sun, Bob Saget, or whatever higher power you believe or disbelieve in.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]What's natural about it? Stop and think about it, people die from car accidents and all sorts of things that aren't natural. So why should they suffer through a terminal disease if they don't want to? And saying it's playing God only applies if you actually believe in God. So that's the same as forcing your beliefs on someone else. No one has the right to force someone to do things based on their own religious beliefs.[quote name='Lethargy'][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]It is not one's place to decide when one shall leave this world.[/COLOR'][/SIZE][/quote]Then it's also not your or my place to tell them that they can't. It really comes down to people making that decision for themselves.

It may seem cowardly, but until you or I have experienced pain severe enough to make you wish you were dead, you can argue all you want that it's wrong, but until you face that moment, you don't know what you'll do.

[Mr. Maul]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Personally, I believe that if someone wants to end their own life, that's their decision.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=1][FONT=Verdana]Legally, however, I don't believe it is right, because someone is taking another person's life.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=1][FONT=Verdana]Isn't that murder/homicide/manslaughter (I'm not familiar with the correct term)?[/FONT][/SIZE]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='Lethargy'][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]It is not one's place to decide when one shall leave this world.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]Why?[/color]

[quote name='Allamorph']However, one never knows when one is supposed to die until after one dies, so if you take your own life five minitues before it would have expired anyway, doesn't that mean that you were supposed to take your own life?[/quote]

[color=deeppink]I'd go a bit farther than that. If the bolded statement is true then a person who kills himself or herself would be dying when they are supposed to, no matter what the circumstances are.[/color]

[Delta]

[COLOR=#35425e][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][quote name='Rachmaninoff']And saying it's playing God only applies if you actually believe in God. So that's the same as forcing your beliefs on someone else. No one has the right to force someone to do things based on their own religious beliefs.Then it's also not your or my place to tell them that they can't.[/QUOTE]
Says the pot to the kettle.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='Sirius'][COLOR=#35425e][FONT="Palatino Linotype"]
Says the pot to the kettle.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]It's still true though, it's kind of unrealistic to expect things to be done because of a belief in God when many of us do not have such a belief. ;) And on the same thought they have the right to think that it's not our place to decide, but that still leaves them in the position of not having the right to make that choice for someone else, regardless of their belief or non-belief.

Using God or belief as a reason for not allowing assisted suicide isn't a good enough reason for me either. So in other words I have no issue with it. About the only thing I think is important is that it has to be something that there is no way to cure it, at the time of the disease that is.[/COLOR]

[Lethargy]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]So since you don't believe in a higher power, killing people is okay then, right?[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Nerdsy][color=deeppink']I'd go a bit farther than that. If the bolded statement is true then a person who kills himself or herself would be dying when they are supposed to, no matter what the circumstances are.[/color][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]That was pretty much exactly my point, yes. It's called rhetoric. :animesmil
[quote name='indifference][COLOR="Indigo"']Using God or belief as a reason for not allowing assisted suicide isn't a good enough reason for me either.[/COLOR][/quote]
From what I've noticed, neither is it a good enough reason for Him – so what have we?
[B]Edit:[/B]
[quote name='Lethargy][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]So since you don't believe in a higher power, killing people is okay then, right?[/COLOR'][/SIZE][/quote]
Yous just holds ya's horses there, eh? Ya ain't gonna get much o' anywhere with [I]that[/I] kinda a'arguin'.[/FONT]

[Delta]

[COLOR=#35425e][FONT="Palatino Linotype"]The problem is that a lot of people get anal when Person A invokes God as a basis of his beliefs and jump at the chance to say otherwise without really thinking about where Person A's coming from. Though we agree that one should not force one's theistic doctrines on another, I am of the opinion that we agnostics and atheists should, in turn, not force our beliefs of God being non-causative and/or non-existent on those who think otherwise.

So please, [b]let's not turn this into another "Does God exist or not?" discussion.[/b][/FONT][/COLOR]

[OMNOMNOMALY]

[FONT="Georgia"][quote name='Lethargy'][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]So since you don't believe in a higher power, killing people is okay then, right?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

oh yeah, totally.[/FONT]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Lethargy'][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]So since you don't believe in a higher power, killing people is okay then, right?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]Uh sure, and if you don't believe in gravity nothing will happen if you jump off a cliff.

Even if you don't believe in a higher power there is still a concept of right and wrong in stable minded people. Killing people is wrong it's as simple as that. Yes it doesn't stop someone from trying, but it's still wrong.
[/color][/font]

[Rachmaninoff]

^ *pokes Anomaly* :p[quote name='Sirius'][COLOR=#35425e][FONT="Palatino Linotype"]
Says the pot to the kettle.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]Not at all, I'm trying to point out that one's belief is not a deciding factor for me and many others when it comes to whether or not assisted suicide should be allowed. Whether or not the person in question is genuinely suffering is what I think should be considered. As well as whether or not there is any relief or hope of a cure. Otherwise many terminal patients spend their last days in horrible pain that seems totally unnecessary to me when they are going to die.[quote name='Lethargy'][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]So since you don't believe in a higher power, killing people is okay then, right?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]You've missed the point. Saying that it's wrong due to a belief in God or whatever you believe in ignores the fact that a terminally ill person is suffering. What I'm saying is we need to look beyond that to see if allowing such suffering is inhumane and cruel, not whether or not it's 'morally' right or wrong. Because people's views of what's right and wrong are very different. I never once said, killing people for any reason was okay. Not quite the same thing.
[quote name='Sirius'][COLOR=#35425e][FONT="Palatino Linotype"]The problem is that a lot of people get anal when Person A invokes God as a basis of his beliefs and jump at the chance to say otherwise without really thinking about where Person A's coming from. Though we agree that one should not force one's theistic doctrines on another, I am of the opinion that we agnostics and atheists should, in turn, not force our beliefs of God being non-causative and/or non-existent on those who think otherwise.

So please, [b]let's not turn this into another "Does God exist or not?" discussion.[/b][/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]On some level it's unavoidable, I want to argue that if the suffering is severe enough, then the person who is suffering should have the right to make that decision. Those who believe suicide in any form is wrong due to religious beliefs would say otherwise.

All I'm trying to say is on some level, when making choices for other people, you have to set those beliefs aside to some degree. ;) Or rather to be fair I think that's the best way to go about it. It doesn't mean I'm right.

[lea]

[quote name='Lethargy'][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]So since you don't believe in a higher power, killing people is okay then, right?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Silly you. Higher-power less people have morals too.

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='Lethargy;788354][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]So since you don't believe in a higher power, killing people is okay then, right?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]Belief or disbelief really has nothing to do with it. Other than a sense of right or wrong. And under certain conditions, yes I think that killing people is okay. I'll get to the conditions in a moment here.[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman'][color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]Uh sure, and if you don't believe in gravity nothing will happen if you jump off a cliff.

Even if you don't believe in a higher power there is still a concept of right and wrong in stable minded people. Killing people is wrong it's as simple as that. Yes it doesn't stop someone from trying, but it's still wrong.
[/color][/font][/QUOTE]Unlike a higher power, gravity is provable. So that's really irrelevant since you can't prove that God exists, which as Sirius pointed out really isn't the point of this discussion. Yes it's important since people's belief in such a thing is why they are against it, but whether or not he does exist isn't the discussion here.

Also, right or wrong does not equate to no killing at all, you're talking in absolutes here and that doesn't work. Saying [I]killing is wrong, it's as simple as that[/I], merely brushes the topic under the carpet without attempting to address it at all. Just because that is what you think, it does not make it right or even correct. Except for you perhaps.

Now I'm going to come back to the conditions I mentioned as to whether or not killing is acceptable. I'll list them, allowing someone or helping them take their own life is, in my opinion, acceptable if the following conditions are met:

[LIST]
[*]The disease they have is incurable at this time.
[*]They are in horrible pain that even the best medical care cannot relieve.
[*]The person suffering wishes to die.
[*]It is legal in the state or country they live in.
[/LIST]
If these conditions exist, then I am of the opinion that they have the right to make that choice and in the end if it's wrong or a sin, that will be between them and God at that point. It is not a blanket statement of killing is okay, it is a statement that under specific conditions a person should have the right to make that choice for themselves. [/COLOR]

[spy46]

exactly, thank you.

i tried to explain by using some what realistic events that could happen to any one, resulting in the person becoming in such pain.

so here is one more just in case i didnt get thru to some of you.

lets pretend i have a fleash eating disease, my entire body is infected with it, there is no cure, no way to stop or even slow it down, the meds can not dull all the pain that i would be feeling at the same time, i can feel not only my skin being eaten, but also my insides.

at that point i would want to die because.

1: that would be suffering beyond reason.
2: it would/could be very slow while very painful.
3: given time i would be able to see my bones thru my skin.
4: i would need to be bandaged and re bandaged time and time again.
5: my family would have to sit there and watch me slowly and painfuly die.

who of you could say that you would rather live a few more .... days,weeks,months or even a year like that (your being eaten alive)

who of you could say that you would just sit there and watch ... your mom OR your child go thru it and force them to suffer every step of the way until they died from one of the worst kinds of death any one could face, even tho they are asking for you to stop their suffering.

if any of you can say that if you were in that condition, and would still want to take your chances to live one more day even under that kind of pain, well ... i dont want to offend any one with the comment i would have made, but you would need your head exained (sp):animesigh

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][quote name='Lethargy'][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]Everyone dies when they are supposed to die, and if you disrupt this natural occurrence by choosing the time of one's demise, you are essentially playing God, Allah, Jehova, Jah, Seaxnéat, Amun, Zeus, Vishnu, Shiva, Brahman, Anshar, that rock, the sun, Bob Saget, or whatever higher power you believe or disbelieve in.

It is not one's place to decide when one shall leave this world.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]Humans interfere with the natural occurrence of ones demise by thwarting death on a regular basis. We use medicine and surgical procedures all the time to ward of disease, to essentially fix problems that in the past resulted in people dying. So are we not playing God by doing so? Life or Death, it is the same thing, we already play God by messing with when a person should have died.[quote name='Lethargy'][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen] No. I wouldn't.

If there is no hope for someone, then why should they have their life ended five minutes prematurely? That is five minutes of their life lost. Sure, they might have been in excruciating pain, but at least they are alive. Killing someone who's dying is redundant.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]Saying that is easy when you are not the one experiencing the pain, and being alive in severe pain that is not going to end doesn't even come close to being truly alive. Letting someone suffer when they are going to die is redundant and pointless.[quote name='Lethargy'][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]How does the amount of time someone has to live make a difference on whether or not someone should be assisted with their death? How does one instance of impending death warrant hope, and the other doesn't? Based on your logic, if there were two people dying, one of which had seven months to live, the other six, the latter should pretty much just give up and throw in the towel.

The point is, we are all going to die, so it's best to just ride it out and live each day to the fullest, even if each day is agonizingly painful. It will pass.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]It makes a difference because unlike the other option there is a chance that a cure will be found, and not all stages of Aids is horribly painful. Saying it's best to ride it out is really up to the person to decide. And saying it will pass? Terminally ill patients who cannot be cured will never see the pain pass. It will only end when they are dead. Which is the point here, they are suffering for no reason.[quote name='Lethargy'][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]So since you don't believe in a higher power, killing people is okay then, right?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]Yes, and for the same reasons indifference listed. ^_~ I feel the same way about it as she does.

Also, I'm a firm believer that everyone has a breaking point, a moment where something can happen that would make you wish to die. For some it's pain, for others it's something else. So leaving it up to the person to decide is how I feel it should be done.

I watched my grandmother, who was in her eighties slowly die from a terminal disease that destroyed her lungs. Her last three weeks in the hospital were hell on earth for her. Without medical assistance she would have died and yet she was not allowed to even though she was ready to move on. There was no rest from the pain she experienced, all the medicine in the world was not enough to make it stop. It did not pass until she was dead. And pretty much everyone in my family was glad when she finally did die since it meant that she really was at rest and no longer suffering.[/FONT][/COLOR]