Religion and Politics

[Rachmaninoff]

I ran into a poll about religion and political candidates that was done by CBS news back in June. [URL="http://www.pollingreport.com/religion.htm"][U]Poll[/U][/URL] I found it kind of interesting and so with that in mind I have altered it just a tiny bit as well as only including the questions from the first poll listed on the page since it seemed like an interesting thing to ask others.

[B]1 - Do you think it is appropriate for political candidates to talk about their religious beliefs as part of their political campaigns, or do you think this is not appropriate?[/B]

Being a rather non-religious person myself, I'm of the opinion that such beliefs hold no place in politics and yet at the same time I don't see how it would be realistic to expect otherwise. So it's kind of hard for me to firmly say one way or the other when it comes to it being appropriate or not.

[B]2 - Do you think it is appropriate for religious leaders to urge people to vote for or against a political candidate, or is that not appropriate?[/B]

Now this is easier. It's one thing to know what a candidates view is but for religious leaders to try and make sure someone isn't voted for because they don't agree with their views? I really disagree with that. The LDS church where I live is guilty of this sort of thing on a regular basis and on some level I find it offensive. People need to decide for themselves who they vote for instead of following the recommendation of their church leaders.

[B]3 - Thinking about your vote for president next year, how important is it that a candidate SHARES your religious beliefs?[/B]

It's only important in letting me know if they hold views that I do not agree with. And even then, that would only matter if I knew they would allow those views to affect how they would serve. For example, I would not vote for someone who I knew would do everything they could to block the rights of homosexuals or abortion.

[B]4 - How important is it for a candidate to have STRONG religious beliefs, regardless of whether those beliefs are the same as yours?[/B]

Not at all. I'm of the mindset that having strong religious beliefs is not necessary for being in a position of power politically. Sometimes I think it's more of a detriment instead of a strength.

Anyway, time to see what the rest of you think. Since I'm sure my views do not mirror others. Heh.

[Odin M Yggdrasi]

This thread is a contradiction- Separation of Church and State, and therefore it cannot exist. Also, in my experience religion and politics are taboo topics because they invariably degrade into fights. Maybe this forum is different though, we'll soon find out.

I would like to toss out my opinion of politics and specifically politicians:
It is a a choice between a thief, and a thief that lies about it.

To answer your questions:

[quote][b]1 - Do you think it is appropriate for political candidates to talk about their religious beliefs as part of their political campaigns, or do you think this is not appropriate?[/b][/quote]
Absurd. Any that do mention religion or try to use it as a selling point for their campaign should be immediately removed from the running due to a violation of the separation of church and state. True some people would be more motivated to vote for a specific person because of it, but you will also get politicians who pretend to be religious just to get office, and after that never set foot in a church again

[quote][b]2 - Do you think it is appropriate for religious leaders to urge people to vote for or against a political candidate, or is that not appropriate?[/b][/quote]

Here's a funny matter, because while I consider it improper I see no reason why a holy person could not urge people to choose a certain leader, or debate the merits of a specific leader's policy with the clergy. As long as they do not become overly preachy saying "Vote for bush or go to hell" then I don't think it is a problem.

[quote][b]3 - Thinking about your vote for president next year, how important is it that a candidate SHARES your religious beliefs?[/b][/quote]

Not at all, and I find myself extremely apathetic to politics. As I said before, it is a choice between a Thief, and a Thief that Lies about it. I registered to vote senior year of high school like the rest of my class, and the only time I have actually voted since then is when the school budget was up (I opposed it like most people in town did). The fact is being in a primarily republican region in a state controlled by democrats, it doesn't really matter who I vote for and I really don't care who it is as long as it isn't some madman dictator.

[quote][b]4 - How important is it for a candidate to have STRONG religious beliefs, regardless of whether those beliefs are the same as yours?[/b][/quote]

I doubt I'd ever find one who shares the same beliefs as me anyway, since I am following a mix of several religions on a Roman Catholic base. But again, I really don't care. These politicians can promise the world and get away with it during their election campaign, but once they are elected they become like GW Bush and use the United States Armed Forces for their personal gain, and there is nothing we can do to stop them. Unfortunately, modern politics is corrupt to the core, and even with participating in the government a single average person stands little chance of changing that.


Btw, reading material that some people might find interesting with regard to politics:

[b]The Prince
by Niccolo Machiavelli[/b]

I have a strong suspicion that Bush is familiar with the concepts presented in this, it was originally written during the Renaissance and at the time the author was held as a corrupter of modern politics, while it seems to me that he merely documented and explained the corruption already present in the politics of the time. A lot of Bush's actions do make sense however when you consider the ideas presented in this.

[Doublehex]

Odin, in reference to your comments of separation of church and state, you should know that those words are [I]never[/I] found in the Constitution. The only time those words ever rose up was a letter that Tomas Jefferson wrote to the leader of a church, assuring him that the government would never interfere with the church.

But, there is nothing preventing religion from interfering with the government. And this is a wise move, because religion [I]does[/I] in fact affect one's political beliefs. And if the separation of church and state was in the Constitution, then any religious individual would not be able to run for government.

Which would be somewhat awkward, considering, to the extent of my knowledge, all of the founding fathers followed a religion.

Now, to answer the questions...

[QUOTE]Do you think it is appropriate for political candidates to talk about their religious beliefs as part of their political campaigns, or do you think this is not appropriate?[/QUOTE]

Well, it depends. Is he using it as a selling point to get more voters? If that is the case, than I would not vote for him. His political beliefs should be enough to show his religious beliefs, and that should be more than enough to attract voters.

But, if he just answers it in response to a question, well, can we really blame him?

[QUOTE]Do you think it is appropriate for religious leaders to urge people to vote for or against a political candidate, or is that not appropriate?[/QUOTE]

This would be a definite NO to me. Politics, much like religion, are a personal matter? Do you support abortion? Gay marriage? Should we get the troops our of Iraq, or keep them there to prevent a Civil War? Its really a personal choice, and I don't think its right for any religious leader to demand who his attendees vote for.

[QUOTE]Thinking about your vote for president next year, how important is it that a candidate SHARES your religious beliefs?[/QUOTE]

Not at all, because I believe a leader can be of any religion, and still be a capable leader. Of course, I have little backup to support my claims, considering we have yet to see an Atheist become President, and every President has been Christian.

[QUOTE]How important is it for a candidate to have STRONG religious beliefs, regardless of whether those beliefs are the same as yours?[/QUOTE]

Well, I think people need to sort some things about before they run for President. Their stance for religion is one of them. I would feel uneasy if if I voted for a man who couldn't decided if he believed in God or otherwise.

[Retribution]

[QUOTE][B]1 - Do you think it is appropriate for political candidates to talk about their religious beliefs as part of their political campaigns, or do you think this is not appropriate?[/B][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]They certainly have the right to talk about their religious beliefs, and it makes sense since most of the time the candidate's religion is a massive part of their life. They base the majority of their beliefs off this system, so it's only logical that they mention it.

[QUOTE][B]2 - Do you think it is appropriate for religious leaders to urge people to vote for or against a political candidate, or is that not appropriate?[/B][/QUOTE]
I think it has it's place. For instance, Buddhist monks urging the citizens of Burma to vote for Candidate X who will give the country the best future and avoid future violent revolutions, I think that's acceptable.

[QUOTE][B]3 - Thinking about your vote for president next year, how important is it that a candidate SHARES your religious beliefs?[/B][/QUOTE]
Not at all. So long as they do not impose their religion upon others through policy, I could care less about the candidate's religion.

[QUOTE][B]4 - How important is it for a candidate to have STRONG religious beliefs, regardless of whether those beliefs are the same as yours?[/B][/QUOTE]

Once again, not at all. It shows nothing about their ability to lead.[/font]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff'][B]2 - Do you think it is appropriate for religious leaders to urge people to vote for or against a political candidate, or is that not appropriate?[/B]

Now this is easier. It's one thing to know what a candidates view is but for religious leaders to try and make sure someone isn't voted for because they don't agree with their views? I really disagree with that. The LDS church where I live is guilty of this sort of thing on a regular basis and on some level I find it offensive. People need to decide for themselves who they vote for instead of following the recommendation of their church leaders.[/QUOTE]

The thing is, to a certain extent, it makes sense to promote a candidate based on your beliefs. Think about it: If your pastor finds out that there is a candidate who promotes something you don't believe in (ex. abortion [don't flame me,]) it stands to reason he's gonna bring it up next service. If a candidate doesn't share your beliefs, odds are s/he's gonna make some decisions your morals don't like. After all, isn't voting for someone dependent on your beliefs anyway?

[eleanor]

[font="trebuchet ms"][B]1 - Do you think it is appropriate for political candidates to talk about their religious beliefs as part of their political campaigns, or do you think this is not appropriate?[/B]

Appropriate is a tricky word, here. It's suitable, sure, but I don't really think it's appropriate. If a candidate discloses what religious s/he follows, it's fine. Integrating religion into a political campaign directly, though, is unusual and not really appropriate (i.e. actually saying verbatum "vote for me because I'm ___). It's usually indirect, which is just inevitable. Policies a candidate chooses or stances a candidate takes usually are beliefs that stem from religious viewpoints.

[B]2 - Do you think it is appropriate for religious leaders to urge people to vote for or against a political candidate, or is that not appropriate?[/B]

Personally I'm against it. If a pastor gets up there and preaches about why we should vote for Mitt Romney and hate Hilary Clinton, or whatever, it would just be unseemly. Religious leaders should focus on leading their congregation in beliefs and morals, which would indirectly influence the congregation's choice for candidate anyway.

[B]3 - Thinking about your vote for president next year, how important is it that a candidate SHARES your religious beliefs?[/B]

Not important at all. I believe in a secular government, so I'd rather the candidate not make a big deal out of what religion they are.

[B]4 - How important is it for a candidate to have STRONG religious beliefs, regardless of whether those beliefs are the same as yours?[/B]

Not important.

[/font]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][B]1 - Do you think it is appropriate for political candidates to talk about their religious beliefs as part of their political campaigns, or do you think this is not appropriate?[/B]

Well that depends, if they are trying to use what religion they follow as a point to get votes instead of showing what they are for or rather what they intend to do, then at that point it's not appropriate. Sure their religious beliefs will influence what they decide to do if elected, like banning abortion or gay marriage, but it shouldn't be a vote for me because I'm [insert religion here]. I want to see what they intend to do not what church they are going to attend.

[B]2 - Do you think it is appropriate for religious leaders to urge people to vote for or against a political candidate, or is that not appropriate?[/B]

No I don't. Lunox stated it very well in that religious leaders need to focus on teaching beliefs and values since those will influence how people vote anyway. But for them to say vote for this person or vote no on this particular bit of legislation. That I completely disagree with since it puts an unnecessary amount of pressure on people to vote a certain way just to fit in with the rest of the members of the religion you belong to.

[B]3 - Thinking about your vote for president next year, how important is it that a candidate SHARES your religious beliefs?[/B]

Not important at all since I don't really have any religious beliefs. I intend to vote for the person who I think will do the best job as well as one who doesn't have agendas that I don't agree with. Though whether or not that will be possible is yet to be seen. In which case it will end up being the lesser of two evils as I like to call it. The one I dislike the least.

[B]4 - How important is it for a candidate to have STRONG religious beliefs, regardless of whether those beliefs are the same as yours?[/B]

Personally I think strong religious beliefs are completely unnecessary. Like I said to the previous question, I'll vote for the person I think will get the job done, what religion he/she belongs to is meaningless to me.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[B]1 - Do you think it is appropriate for political candidates to talk about their religious beliefs as part of their political campaigns, or do you think this is not appropriate?[/B]

Yes and no. Yes in that it's unavoidable that said beliefs are going to influence how they would approach certain issues. But as it's been mentioned already, attempting to gain favor or votes by virtue of being a member of a certain religion is something I do not agree with. What religion they belong to shouldn't be why one is voting for someone.

[B]2 - Do you think it is appropriate for religious leaders to urge people to vote for or against a political candidate, or is that not appropriate?[/B]

Most definitely not. I am very religious and yet as Lunox pointed out, it is not the place of a church leader to tell you who to vote for, its their place to guide you with the values and morals important to your religion. The problem with this type of mentality, of thinking it's acceptable for church leaders to advise you in politics is that it would encourage laziness on the side of the voters. They wouldn't need to know the candidate or what the person is like, or even what the current issues are, all they'd have to do is follow what their leader stated.

And time spent by said church leader, telling you who you should vote for is time that would be better spent on educating and teaching the members of their congregation on spiritual matters not secular ones. To do otherwise defeats the whole purpose of church to begin with.

[B]3 - Thinking about your vote for president next year, how important is it that a candidate SHARES your religious beliefs?[/B]

Not at all. I'm more concerned with them following through on issues where in that instance our views are similar. They don't need to be in the same religion or have the same beliefs for that.

[B]4 - How important is it for a candidate to have STRONG religious beliefs, regardless of whether those beliefs are the same as yours?[/B]

It's not important. In some ways, I would worry that they would allow religion to influence their judgment too much so I'd rather have someone who is balanced enough to realize that with so many views and beliefs out there. Holding strictly to their own religious beliefs is not such a bright idea. You have to strike a balance instead of favoring only one viewpoint.[quote name='Aceburner']The thing is, to a certain extent, it makes sense to promote a candidate based on your beliefs. Think about it: If your pastor finds out that there is a candidate who promotes something you don't believe in (ex. abortion [don't flame me,]) it stands to reason he's gonna bring it up next service. If a candidate doesn't share your beliefs, odds are s/he's gonna make some decisions your morals don't like. After all, isn't voting for someone dependent on your beliefs anyway?[/QUOTE]Actually I don't see how that makes good sense, but rather a conflict of interest in my opinion. If a pastor knows that a certain candidate is for a view that goes against the church's teachings, by virtue of making sure those in the church are well versed on said teachings. They'll vote against that person without any need for the pastor to speak up. If a person is strongly grounded in their beliefs, they don't need someone in the church to waste their time and speak up on who they think you should vote for.

And if they think people need a reminder because they wouldn't know... Then I would point out that they need to do what most pastors do. Preach instead of saying 'go vote for this person' In other words if the person they want them to not vote for is for say abortion. Then they need to be preaching about the sacredness of life instead of how [I]so and so would make abortion legal, don't vote for them[/I].

[John]

[quote name='Odin M Yggdrasi']Also, in my experience religion and politics are taboo topics because they invariably degrade into fights. Maybe this forum is different though,[/quote] lol'd! :D

[B]1 - Do you think it is appropriate for political candidates to talk about their religious beliefs as part of their political campaigns, or do you think this is not appropriate?

[/B][quote name='Retribution][FONT=Arial']They certainly have the right to talk about their religious beliefs, and it makes sense since most of the time the candidate's religion is a massive part of their life. They base the majority of their beliefs off this system, so it's only logical that they mention it.[/FONT][/quote]
[B]2 - Do you think it is appropriate for religious leaders to urge people to vote for or against a political candidate, or is that not appropriate?[/B]

Urging =/= demanding. It's ok for anyone, regardless of religion, to tell other people who they think they should be voting for.

[FONT=trebuchet ms][B]3 - Thinking about your vote for president next year, how important is it that a candidate SHARES your religious beliefs?

[/B]Pretty important, but I just don't think there are any candidates in the running that I know of, or have been for years and years, who can really say they share my beliefs.

[/FONT][B]4 - How important is it for a candidate to have STRONG religious beliefs, regardless of whether those beliefs are the same as yours?

[/B]It's important to me that they've got strong Christian beliefs, but not because they're just strong religious beliefs in general. So, no.

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][B]1 - Do you think it is appropriate for political candidates to talk about their religious beliefs as part of their political campaigns, or do you think this is not appropriate?[/B]

Well so long as they aren't using it as something silly like vote for me because I'm [insert religion here] then I don't see why they can't. I would imagine that beliefs make up a huge part of why they choose to support or not support certain issues.

[B]2 - Do you think it is appropriate for religious leaders to urge people to vote for or against a political candidate, or is that not appropriate?[/B]

Well yes and no. Sure it's fine to express the desire that people not vote for candidates who's views contradict the teachings of their religion. But one would hope they have better faith in their followers to be able to discern that for themselves. Otherwise, they're just mindless sheep doing as they've been told instead of thinking for themselves.

[B]3 - Thinking about your vote for president next year, how important is it that a candidate SHARES your religious beliefs?[/B]

Sadly, I won't even be old enough to vote so it's not important at all. Though even if I could vote, it wouldn't matter.

[B]4 - How important is it for a candidate to have STRONG religious beliefs, regardless of whether those beliefs are the same as yours?[/B]

Nope. I want them to be honest [[SIZE="1"]yes I know, an [U]oxymoron[/U] when it comes to politics XP[/SIZE]] and to be someone who will stick to what they plan on doing and do their best. Religious beliefs aren't necessary for that, in my opinion. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Aceburner']The thing is, to a certain extent, it makes sense to promote a candidate based on your beliefs. Think about it: If your pastor finds out that there is a candidate who promotes something you don't believe in (ex. abortion [don't flame me,]) it stands to reason he's gonna bring it up next service. If a candidate doesn't share your beliefs, odds are s/he's gonna make some decisions your morals don't like. After all, isn't voting for someone dependent on your beliefs anyway?[/QUOTE]That's the point though, if they know their beliefs already, they don't need the religious leaders making suggestions as to who they would vote for. As A_M said, that would make it easy for people to be lazy and not bother to really get to know who's running. Where otherwise, they have to actually put in the effort to know what's going on. To learn what the issues are.

So I guess I'm saying I don't like the herd mentality of expecting someone else to make that decision for you. I've run into people who literally think, well my church leader is voting for this person so I will too, and yet they'll know nothing about the candidate in question. In the end there's nothing stopping church leaders from doing it, I just don't agree with it.

[James]

[color=#606060]I will answer the rest of the questions shortly, but I just wanted to comment on this quote:[/color]

[quote]And if the separation of church and state was in the Constitution, then any religious individual would not be able to run for government.
[/quote]

[color=#606060]My understanding is that when people talk about "Separation of Church and State", they are referring to the Establishment Clause.

From what I understand, the Establishment Clause prohibits Government from establishing an official state religion.

This does not mean that Government and religion are mutually exclusive; it just means that Government can not "officially favor" one religion over another, in terms of legislation and so on.

I am not American but this is my understanding of the issue; I'm sure someone more knowledgable about the American constitution could go into much more detail than that.[/color]

[John]

[quote name='James'][COLOR=#606060]My understanding is that when people talk about "Separation of Church and State", they are referring to the Establishment Clause.

From what I understand, the Establishment Clause prohibits Government from establishing an official state religion.

This does not mean that Government and religion are mutually exclusive; it just means that Government can not "officially favor" one religion over another, in terms of legislation and so on.

I am not American but this is my understanding of the issue; I'm sure someone more knowledgable about the American constitution could go into much more detail than that.[/COLOR][/quote] Well, that's pretty much the long and the short of it, I believe. People seem to think that government and religion need to be kept in airlocked containers a thousand miles away from each other, but it's just not true; the two can intermingle as much as they want, as long as it doesn't result in the government favoring one religion above or below another. But of course, the problem with this doesn't usually occur with people trying to separate religion and government at all costs, but with overzealous Christians demanding that our religion be the favored one.

[Aethon_Liam]

[quote name='John']But of course, the problem with this doesn't usually occur with people trying to separate religion and government at all costs, but with overzealous Christians demanding that our religion be the favored one.[/quote]

And their inlies the problem. In my opinion at least. In my eyes, christians (some not all) like to say that their religion is the only correct religion. No one, and I mean no one, can say that their religion is correct. They can believe it is all they want, but believeing in something doesn't make it true.

But to the point of why I'm posting...

[B][QUOTE][B]1 - Do you think it is appropriate for political candidates to talk about their religious beliefs as part of their political campaigns, or do you think this is not appropriate?[/B][/QUOTE][/B]

Personally, I don't care. you can tell me what religion you like to believe in all you want, I really don't care. You could even be a satanist. Just so long as your religious views don't block your ability to run a government, filled with people of many different religions.

[B][QUOTE][B]2 - Do you think it is appropriate for religious leaders to urge people to vote for or against a political candidate, or is that not appropriate?[/B]
[/QUOTE][/B]

Anyone can tell you to vote for someone, or not vote for someone, but does that mean you will? Not nessicarily. People of strong will, and mind, will normally do what they want with their lives. Others will do what others tell them because they don't know what to do. It's just how people work. Now, if they start saying stuff like "Vote for so-and-so or I'll/We'll/you'll such-and-such..." then there's a problem...

[B][QUOTE][B]3 - Thinking about your vote for president next year, how important is it that a candidate SHARES your religious beliefs?[/B]
[/QUOTE][/B]

I doubt any candidate shares my beliefs, and if they did, oh well. Two people can believe in the same thing and still be total oppisites. Their are religous murders...

[B][QUOTE][B]4 - How important is it for a candidate to have STRONG religious beliefs, regardless of whether those beliefs are the same as yours?[/B][/QUOTE][/B]

I'd like to vote for someone who isn't going to be "I'm a christian. I'm an atheist. etc..." That just shows undecissiveness. (sp?) Also, like I said before, as long as their religion doesn't get in the way of their ability to run a government, I'll be fine with them.

Really, religion shouldn't matter in government period. Just so long as the candidate in question is fit to serve. If they aren't, then you got the wrong guy. If they are, well then everybody say "Yay!!!"

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='Odin M Yggdrasi']Absurd. Any that do [b]mention religion[/b] or try to use it as a selling point for their campaign should be immediately removed from the running due to a violation of the separation of church and state. [/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]That sounds like a violation of the Free Excercise Clause.[/color]

[Odin M Yggdrasi]

[quote name='Nerdsy'][color=deeppink]That sounds like a violation of the Free Excercise Clause.[/color][/QUOTE]

Probably is, and I never said they couldn't practice a religion. As long as they did not mention it during their campaign or while in office then they can practice it all they wish on their own time and still be a politician. Their beliefs will show in their policy and what they are for or against, the exact religion is irrelevant other than a name for it because it is merely the basis for their beliefs and not what they actually believe on a specific issue. For instance they may disagree with the doctrines of a church they are a member of on specific issues, and using a Religion as a blanket explanation for their policy will only distort the views of both themselves and the Religion they use in the eyes of the masses.

Sorry, I tend to be a bit high conservative on issues like this, too many incidents in the past where a particular politician will 'convert' to a specific religion just for the purposes of attracting support, instances of that occurring go all the way back to Ancient Rome.

And yes, I am more against the people that run around screaming believe or die than anything else regarding the subject of religion and politics. People can believe what they like, as long as they aren't hurting anyone by doing so.

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='Odin M Yggdrasi'] Probably is, and I never said they couldn't practice a religion. As long as they did not mention it during their campaign or while in office then they can practice it all they wish on their own time and still be a politician.[/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]Free excercise doesn't always protect practice, which is why polygamy isn't legal in most places. It does, however, protect speech in all cases. Same with the first ammendment. You shouldn't lose your right to talk about your religion just because of your job; it's discriminatory.

Besides, you want them to practice? What of the religions that require it's members to spread the word? Last church I belonged to, I don't remember which domination, said a silent Christian isn't a true Christian.[/color]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][B]1 - Do you think it is appropriate for political candidates to talk about their religious beliefs as part of their political campaigns, or do you think this is not appropriate?[/B]

I don't see why not, in a way, I'd rather find out up front if they are going to be overzealous with using religion in their political stance. That way I'll know if their beliefs are something I would rather not see in action if they were to be elected. It's part of who they are so it's important to know about it.

[B]2 - Do you think it is appropriate for religious leaders to urge people to vote for or against a political candidate, or is that not appropriate?[/B]

Only if there isn't some sort of pressure that if they don't' vote a certain way they'll get in trouble with their religious leaders. The only problem I have with this in general is when they falsely represent or focus on only one aspect of a candidate or legislation instead of encouraging their followers to become more informed.

[B]3 - Thinking about your vote for president next year, how important is it that a candidate SHARES your religious beliefs?[/B]

I don't have religious beliefs so obviously it's not important to me at all. lol

[B]4 - How important is it for a candidate to have STRONG religious beliefs, regardless of whether those beliefs are the same as yours?[/B]

I don't really care so long as they don't try to favor one religion while in office or serving. The moment they put their religion or beliefs over others then it's important that they don't have strong beliefs, let alone actually serve.[/COLOR]