Heavy Metal: A Head Banger's Discussion Thread

[Panache]

[quote name='Jakehammaren']Industrial. Now, industrial can be combined with rock and metal, but Industrial is it's own genre. For example, Rammstein is Industrial and Rock ("Industrial Rock"), but Industrial is not a form of Rock music. Make sense?

Kam, I'll respond when I have more time.[/QUOTE]
So what if a band starts out as a metal band but then slowly adds industrial sounds and such to their music they will still be considered a metal band as long as the core of their sound is metal right?

[Justin]

What band are you talking about, bro? It'd probably be easier to give you a fair guesstimate of their sound if we could hear their stuff.

-Justin

[Panache]

[quote name='Kam']What band are you talking about, bro? It'd probably be easier to give you a fair guesstimate of their sound if we could hear their stuff.

-Justin[/QUOTE]

No one specifically. I was just going through wiki and it has a whole genre of "industrial metal" which it says a subgenre of metal. So I look up the band and they are either heavy industrial music or doom/death metal with electonica thrown in.

[Justin]

It's like Jake said, man. Industrial isn't ever a stand alone style of music. Industrial is more like a...[i]flavor[/i] of music.

Say you have lollipops, ice cream, and candy coated peanuts. All three can share a flavor, say, cinnamon. But cinnamon isn't a candy you eat by itself, it's a flavor.

Industrial is something certain musicians of various genres choose to incorporate into their music to set it apart from other musicians in those genres. You have metal. You have rock. You have industrial metal. You have industrial rock. You don't have metal industrial, or rock industrial. Industrial is always the adjective. That's what makes sub genres.

That make sense?

-Justin

[G/S/B Master]

I [B]LOVE[/B] Power Metal. I'm a big fan of acts such as [B]Rhapsody of Fire[/B] and [B]Blind Guardian.[/B] I love the epic feeling in each song, and the guitar solos are awesome as well. My top bands are all Japanese however:

Galneryus - [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl4E_6v-TCs[/url]
Versailles - [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj8v2OCGGWc[/url]

[Panache]

[quote name='Kam']It's like Jake said, man. Industrial isn't ever a stand alone style of music. Industrial is more like a...[i]flavor[/i] of music.

Say you have lollipops, ice cream, and candy coated peanuts. All three can share a flavor, say, cinnamon. But cinnamon isn't a candy you eat by itself, it's a flavor.

Industrial is something certain musicians of various genres choose to incorporate into their music to set it apart from other musicians in those genres. You have metal. You have rock. You have industrial metal. You have industrial rock. You don't have metal industrial, or rock industrial. Industrial is always the adjective. That's what makes sub genres.

That make sense?

-Justin[/QUOTE]So Industrial metal is a subgenre of metal then? And Industrial is not a genre in and of itself but a type of a genre. Like progressive is not a genre but progressive rock is? I think I sorta understand if that is correct.

[Jakehammaren]

Sorta. I don't feel like explaining it more. Kam, you handle this.

As far as vocal technique goes, I think death growls are the easiest, but black metal screeches are the most fun and most pleasing to the ears. I want to get my harsh vocals to sound like John Haughm of Agalloch. I think he has the most perfect harsh vocal. He and Mikael Akerfeldt of Opeth, albeit in a very different style.

I [I]hate[/I] "inhale" vocals (you know, the whole 'bree bree or or" thing).

[2010DigitalBoy]

[quote name='Jakehammaren']Sorta. I don't feel like explaining it more. Kam, you handle this.

As far as vocal technique goes, I think death growls are the easiest, but black metal screeches are the most fun and most pleasing to the ears. I want to get my harsh vocals to sound like John Haughm of Agalloch. I think he has the most perfect harsh vocal. He and Mikael Akerfeldt of Opeth, albeit in a very different style.

I [I]hate[/I] "inhale" vocals (you know, the whole 'bree bree or or" thing).[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]John Haughm has an insanely great scream. I've tried as hard as I can and can't come close to it. i swear he's magic. Mikael has probably the best deep one out there - since normally I don't like deep ones.[/COLOR]

[Panache]

[quote name='Jakehammaren']Sorta. I don't feel like explaining it more. Kam, you handle this.

As far as vocal technique goes, I think death growls are the easiest, but black metal screeches are the most fun and most pleasing to the ears. I want to get my harsh vocals to sound like John Haughm of Agalloch. I think he has the most perfect harsh vocal. He and Mikael Akerfeldt of Opeth, albeit in a very different style.

I [I]hate[/I] "inhale" vocals (you know, the whole 'bree bree or or" thing).[/QUOTE]
Whatever Acid Bath does that is my favorite kind of vocals...you know that thing they do...It's like growling screaming and singing beautifully all at once.

[Justin]

That's funny, Jake. I was just about to pass it off to you.

Avenged, you have to understand that there are so many varying degrees of subgenres. One band may incorporate a ****-ton of industrial(or progressive, folk, what-have-you) whereas the next may only use it sparingly.

In order for a band to be truly metal, it has to meet quite a handful of criteria. It has to be metal at its core, certainly. But it also has to make use of its other elements in a very alchemic way to keep from betraying its metalness. That's why only the most talented of bands are able to experiment successfully with these outside elements.

Industrial music is rooted in the 70s. The idea of there being a seperate kind of music that sounded 'industrial' came from bands (at least in part) immitating bands almost exclusively signed to Industrial Records. That's where we get the 'industrial' sound. Nowadays, 'industrial' is a much broader kind of electronic experimentation, but the roots are still the same.

You mentioned progressive. That's a bit different. Progressive tends to denote bands that incorporate jazz structure into their music. So, while progressive metal or rock are subgenres of metal and rock, respectively, you have to keep in mind that the progressive element itself is directly associated with jazz.

I really respect a vocalist whose voice is consistent, yet still understandable. For instance, Mikael Akerfeldt. His vocals, though they be brutal, are nonetheless beautiful and totally musical. He growls like he sings.

And it is that mid-range death growl that is, indeed, the easiest to me. However, unlike Jake, it is also the one I find to be most pleasing, when done correctly. The most difficult for me to achieve is, as I said, the lower death growl. The rumble of Nile, Dying Fetus, Cannibal Corpse, Cryptopsy and so on.

Which while I'm talking about my vocals, it appears a [i]great[/i] opportunity may soon be set before me. My former bandmate's solo project has always had a pretty strong online following, but it seems now that he and his drummer may be working out a record deal with Willowtip Records; the same record company to which Arsis and Necrophagist are signed. And he has long been in need of vocals, a position for which I have long been recruited. We've simply never taken the time to get together and lay those vox down.

So, I finally sent him some lyrics (not the same ones I sent you, Jake. I'm still very interested in a folk metal project with you, and those are reserved for that) I've been writing for his project, and he loved them. So, the metal gods willing, I may be in a legitimately signed band soon. Check out the instrument stuff here: [URL="http://www.myspace.com/curatormetal"]Curator[/URL].

-Justin

[Panache]

[QUOTE]The most difficult for me to achieve is, as I said, the lower death growl. The rumble of Nile, Dying Fetus, Cannibal Corpse, Cryptopsy and so on.[/QUOTE] I can do that pretty easily..or at least I think I can. I am no vocalist for a band or anything but when I sing along with cannibal corpse(which I have been trying to give more of a chance since we last spoke) my friends say I am pretty close. But then again my friends don't listen to a lot of death metal or bands that growl period. So they probably can't really tell the difference. I find it helps me a lot to keep my head down and take really deep breaths before I try to sing.

I am just trying to be helpful here and like I said I am no singer or anything. But if it does do anything for ya let me know!

[Justin]

Heh, I appreciate it. I [i]can[/i] do it. The issue is doing it comfortably. Until I can learn to do comfortably, I can't do it consistently without getting headaches. That's something I've gone through for each and every vocal technique I've learned.

I just noticed your comment about 'brees', Jake. Hehe. I have to admit, I'm a bree-user. I like to jump out from behind corners and scare people with them. Beyond that small entertainment value, they are worthless. They sound like **** in music.

-Justin

EDIT**

I take that last statement back. I just remembered that I can do this awesome thing that sounds [i]just[/i] a lightly howling wind by inhaling. I would use that on a record as a background element, to create atmosphere. It's not a bree, but it is an inhale vocal technique. Aside of that, inhale vocals are a nightmare from the hell of early JFAC, and their millions of imitators.

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"]Well, I can see why Jake and DB are fans of Agalloch, I've got a song on my ProjectPlaylist playist, and while only 11% of it is loaded, the song is beautiful. The song is Falling Snow, btw. I've also got "And the Great Cold death of the Earth" on the list too, and I'm heavily anticipating it.

I'll update this later on tonight when I've heard the whole thing.[/COLOR]

[Panache]

I don't really like folk metal. I mean I think I like one band maybe. So it was no suprise when I didn't like Agalloch. Just not my Cup o Tea. It sounded to...I dunno pretty for me to get into.

[Jakehammaren]

[quote name='Avenged666fold']I don't really like folk metal. I mean I think I like one band maybe. So it was no suprise when I didn't like Agalloch. Just not my Cup o Tea. It sounded to...I dunno pretty for me to get into.[/QUOTE]

How would not liking folk metal have anything to do with not liking Agalloch?

[B]@ Gunslinger - [/B] "Falling Snow" is one of my all-time favorite Agalloch songs (well, songs in general, actually). It is indeed beautiful. "Great Cold Death of the Earth" is actually one of my least favorite Agalloch tracks. If you can, you need to get your hands on "Not Unlike the Waves", "You Were But a Ghost in My Arms", "In the Shadow of Our Pale Companion", and "Limbs".

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"]They only had one other song sadly. I used project playlist. But I'll check the third one out too. I also got a few Amon Amarth songs. :)

Anyways to the song Falling Snow. I could only get to about 33% before it messed up. But the song was amazing, at first it sounded like an alternative metal piece, to me, then it progressed into a beautiful folk-metal masterpiece. Plus the vocals were great and the lyrics were very-well written IMO.

Sucks that I cant find a CD, now I'm really itching for soem Agalloch.

[QUOTE]How would not liking folk metal have anything to do with not liking Agalloch?[/QUOTE]

I was thinking the same thing. So what if you don't like folk-metal, Agalloch is ****ing Agalloch.

EDIT: I actually looked them up again, and someone put on a song overnight. I've now got Kneel to The Cross & Dead Winter Days. (Or nights' forgot which word >_>)[/COLOR]

[Justin]

Jake said that because Agalloch isn't a folk metal band. Not because they're such a good folk metal band that even people who don't like folk metal should be able to like them.

They're one of the few bands that Jake has sung the praises of for forever that I never took the time to check out until just the other day. They are quite good.

-Justin

[Jakehammaren]

[quote name='Gunslinger'][COLOR="77656"]They only had one other song sadly. I used project playlist. But I'll check the third one out too. I also got a few Amon Amarth songs. :)

Anyways to the song Falling Snow. I could only get to about 33% before it messed up. But the song was amazing, at first it sounded like an alternative metal piece, to me, then it progressed into a beautiful folk-metal masterpiece. Plus the vocals were great and the lyrics were very-well written IMO.


I was thinking the same thing. So what if you don't like folk-metal, Agalloch is ****ing Agalloch.

EDIT: I actually looked them up again, and someone put on a song overnight. I've now got Kneel to The Cross & Dead Winter Days. (Or nights' forgot which word >_>)[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

There is no such thing as "alternative metal", and as I quite clearly tried to point out, Agalloch is not a folk metal band. I don't know where you're getting that from. Have you ever heard folk metal before?

And for the record, there's no way to classify Agalloch. They combine elements of doom metal, post-rock, black metal, and progressive (and in their older material, there were elements of neo-folk - NOT FOLK METAL, there's a huuuuuuge difference!).

[Panache]

[QUOTE]Atmospheric Folk/Dark Metal[/QUOTE]
The Encyclopaedia Metallum said they are Folk Metal. They sound like folk metal to me. But whatever you say Jake.

[Goodbye, Face]

[font=arial][size=1]I don't know... they sounded pretty folksy to me...

I don't know why, but I just can't get into Agalloch. I guess that makes me a jerk or something, but I just don't get it! I can't explain what it is, they're talented dudes, but it's not my type.

And let's hear about some Neo-Folk, Jake! It's a completely new term to me.[/font][/size]

[Panache]

[quote name='Goodbye, Face'][font=arial][size=1]I don't know... they sounded pretty folksy to me...

I don't know why, but I just can't get into Agalloch. I guess that makes me a jerk or something, but I just don't get it! I can't explain what it is, they're talented dudes, but it's not my type.

And let's hear about some Neo-Folk, Jake! It's a completely new term to me.[/font][/size][/QUOTE]

Same here. I haven't see the term used until today. What exactly does it mean?

Oh and face does the voice seem to not fit the instrumentals? Neither are bad but together they don't seem to mesh well. Is that just me or do you feel the same? Obviously gunslinger, Jake, and Kam think differently.

[Jakehammaren]

Well it looks like that's one of the extremely rare (but still existent) moments where Metal Archives is wrong.

Here's folk metal:

[url]http://www.myspace.com/officialfinntroll[/url]
[url]http://www.myspace.com/arkonarussia[/url]
[url]http://www.myspace.com/asmeginfanpage[/url]


Compare all those to Agalloch. No similarities. Agalloch doesn't use traditional instruments or melodies, so where is the whole folk metal fixation coming from?



As far as neo-folk goes, I'll just post some links (keep in mind that October Falls, which is neofolk, is my top-listened artist on last.fm!):

[url]http://www.myspace.com/nestfinland[/url] (this band actually did a split with Agalloch, who provided pure neo-folk music instead of metal to the EP)

[url]http://koti.welho.com/mlehto4/of/of.html[/url] (there are streaming music samples at the bottom of the page, just scroll down - keep in mind, "Shores of Fire" is actually a metal song that the guy did for kicks)

[url]http://www.myspace.com/neunwelten[/url] (one of the more intense neofolk groups)


Well, that should keep you busy for a while.

[Panache]

Every source of information fails me...

What do you guys think about Nevermore?

[Justin]

There is no source of information greater than personal research. You can't expect to know as much as I or as much as Jake, regardless of what source you use. Why? You haven't immersed yourself in it for years. There's no substitute for that.

I'm personally a pretty damn big fan of Nevermore. Though, I don't own a single album of theirs, the newest is on my wish list.

-Justin

[Jakehammaren]

[quote name='Avenged666fold']Every source of information fails me...

What do you guys think about Nevermore?[/QUOTE]

This Godless Endeavor is an absolutely f***ing genius album. Jeff Loomis is a machine.