Downloading music

[Japan]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]I know that downloading music is illegal but what is a person to do if they want music from other countries that they cannot get unless they pay 60 dollars for the cd. Some are not lucky to even find the cd for sale over here.

What about the downloading of anime? We do that to get the latest series and to watch the authentic show and not some 4kids concoction.[/COLOR]

[James]

[quote name='Japan_86'][COLOR="DarkRed"]I know that downloading music is illegal but what is a person to do if they want music from other countries that they cannot get unless they pay 60 dollars for the cd. Some are not lucky to even find the cd for sale over here.

What about the downloading of anime? We do that to get the latest series and to watch the authentic show and not some 4kids concoction.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=#606060]What if you want music from another country and you can't get it without paying 60 dollars?

You pay the 60 dollars, lol. And if you can't afford it, you save up.

Overpriced CDs are not really an excuse to steal, in my view.

Besides, there are usually online stores that provide various deals - it can be possible to purchase a CD cheaper if you shop around for it.

I have the same view with anime as well. This is why theOtaku.com doesn't support the idea of downloading anime episodes. [/color]

[Japan]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]What about people who cannot buy online? Not saying that I do not support foriegn music since I buy cds that I want. [/COLOR]

[James]

[color=#606060]What about them? You have to follow that argument to its logical conclusion.

What about homeless people who can't afford to buy a CD single from a music shop? Should they be allowed to steal it because they can't afford it?

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy here. Yes, it sucks if you can't access something like that...but I've come across plenty of things I'd want to buy but am not able to for whatever reason. Often this relates to stuff released in Japan and not in Australia.

But I would never say that I have the right to acquire such things illegally simply because I can't access them any other way. You won't fall over and die without a CD; it's a product, it's a luxury item.[/color]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='James][color=#606060]But I would never say that I have the right to acquire such things illegally simply because I can't access them any other way. You won't fall over and die without a CD; it's a product, [B]it's a luxury item.[/B'][/color][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Quoted for [U]truth[/U].

Don't ever confuse "right" with "desire".[/FONT]

[Japan]

[quote name='James'][color=#606060]What about them? You have to follow that argument to its logical conclusion.

What about homeless people who can't afford to buy a CD single from a music shop? Should they be allowed to steal it because they can't afford it?

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy here. Yes, it sucks if you can't access something like that...but I've come across plenty of things I'd want to buy but am not able to for whatever reason. Often this relates to stuff released in Japan and not in Australia.

But I would never say that I have the right to acquire such things illegally simply because I can't access them any other way. You won't fall over and die without a CD; it's a product, it's a luxury item.[/color][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]I sometimes feel like you you misunderstand me a lot lately. I cannot buy things online. When I saw that $60 cd I never bought it. I do not download music. I am given music from others who bought the cds themselves and let me have it. If I like the music I go out and buy the music. If I do not like it, I give it back to them or do not listen to the stuff they gave me. If it is an Asian music cd that I want, I wait till I go to Seattle where I can buy it relatively cheaper. Music is music. If I can't afford it oh well. I do not steal it. [/COLOR]

[James]

[color=#606060]I didn't misunderstand you though.

You said:[/color]

[quote]I know that downloading music is illegal but what is a person to do if they want music from other countries that they cannot get unless they pay 60 dollars for the cd. Some are not lucky to even find the cd for sale over here.[/quote]

[color=#606060]And I answered. I said that they'd have to pay the 60 dollars or go without.

You then asked me "what about the people who cannot buy online?"

And I answered that they would just have to miss out - that just because you can't access an online store doesn't give you an excuse to acquire the CD by illegal means.

I'm not saying - and I never implied - that [i]you[/i] were doing this. I was answering your general questions.[/color]

[Charles]

I download music because I guess I'm human and not a saint in every facet of my life.

[Guest The Blue Jihad]

[quote name='Charles']I download music because I guess I'm human and not a saint in every facet of my life.[/quote]

**** being a saint.

I just don't like spyware.

My computer is like a dolphin's butt. [B][I]Watertight[/I][/B].

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Charles']I download music because I guess I'm human and not a saint in every facet of my life.[/QUOTE]Blunt and to the point, and in a way, respectable since you're not attempting to justify it. ;) When it comes to the downloading debate, those who attempt to justify it as if it's perfectly fine are what I find annoying. Not those like John or yourself who don't. Just those idiots behaving like they are robin hood stealing from the rich and so on.

Anyway, I do not download music since I am never at the computer long enough to listen to music if I did. I wouldn't even know where to begin as far as transferring it to a CD and I've no interest in figuring it out. I'm painfully ignorant in this area and really don't care.

That and I've been around long enough that I have plenty of records and CD's and I already have a wide selection of music I enjoy listening to. So I don't need nor do I want to download music. I've already got an entire bookshelf, and it's not small, that is full with records, tapes and CD's.

And I think it's a given that if it's illegal, it's best to not do it. Especially since it's just not worth the risk. And being underage won't help you either, they'll just go after your parents like they did for a 12 year old girl who was downloading music a few years ago. I remember hearing about that. Though whether or not the charges actually stuck I don't know since I didn't follow up on it.

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']I just don't like spyware.[/QUOTE]That's another reason why I avoid downloading. One of my roommates decided to take it upon himself to download stuff without asking, by the time he got done, I had so much crap on my computer that it took quite a while to get rid of it. That was last year though and now that fool is no longer my roommate.

[Charles]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']**** being a saint.

I just don't like spyware.

My computer is like a dolphin's butt. [B][I]Watertight[/I][/B].[/QUOTE]

See, the thing is though, if you're computer-literate enough, you know how to avoid such pitfalls.

And, in response to A_M-- you're exactly right. What I do is not something I am going to defend or debate on. I could sit here and qualify my decision based on money. I could argue that I do not download a lot of music so how bad can I be. I could insist that my good qualities outweigh my music downloading. I could argue that the government takes money out of my paycheck every week that I don't want them to and somehow try to intelligently tie that in to my actions. But, at the end of the day, I find that avenue a little redundant, insincere and, to be honest, unnecessary. People are people and we all have quirks that we cannot really justify or defend. But, that's what makes us people, I suppose. When people try to defend their loathsome quirks, not only are they denying what makes them, well, them, they just end up deluding no one but themselves.

Downloading music easy, is convenient, it's free, it's wrong. I'll live with it.

P.S. Sometimes I work, I steal time by taking breaks longer than I'm supposed to. I'll live with that to--unless, of course, anyone wants to debate about it.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR="#004a6f"]Several people have already stated that just because you can't afford music, or can't obtain it legally for whatever reasons, it doesn't give you the right to break the law and illegally download it or makes copies of CDs.

So here's another question: Do you believe [B]the law should be changed[/B] when it comes to reproducing and distributing materials such as books, music, videos, and software?

I don't think that making copies of things is stealing. Stealing is walking into a store and taking a CD without paying for it.

Why should anyone stop us from making copies of what we already have? If I buy a desk, and decide to build duplicate, what's wrong with that?

Why should and an artist have to make money after every instant that someone somewhere in the world hears a recording of their song? It doesn't make sense to me. Because it's their "intellectual property"? And I'm not just saying this because artists have "fame and fortune" already (because I know not all of them are that successful or make lots of money), but because I simply don't think this is a fair or right way for people to earn a living. A doctor or a cashier, or a custodian all get payed for each time they do work, and meanwhile an artist is not only payed every time someone buys a CD, but people are required by law to buy them in order to keep the music.

I personally believe that companies should simply sell mp3s or CDs and pay the artist royalties as usual, because they are making money off them. But I don't think there should be laws against making copies of CDs or mp3s unless people are reselling them. I believe the copyrights should only apply to the money-making aspect of music (or books, videos, software, etc). If people want the original CD with the CD label and the high quality recording, they will pay for it. If they can obtain a free version by copying or downloading from someone, they should be allowed to do so. [/COLOR]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Charles'] When people try to defend their loathsome quirks, not only are they denying what makes them, well, them, they just end up deluding no one but themselves.

Downloading music easy, is convenient, it's free, it's wrong. I'll live with it.[/QUOTE]Well I wouldn't say it's loathsome, but I do agree that it's pointless to try and make it seem right and justified when it's not. But at the same time I'm not going to condemn someone over it either. XP [quote name='Chabichou'][COLOR="#004a6f"]I personally believe that companies should simply sell mp3s or CDs and pay the artist royalties as usual, because they are making money off them. But I don't think there should be laws against making copies of CDs or mp3s unless people are reselling them. I believe the copyrights should only apply to the money-making aspect of music (or books, videos, software, etc). If people want the original CD with the CD label and the high quality recording, they will pay for it. [B] If they can obtain a free version by copying or downloading from someone, they should be allowed to do so.[/B] [/COLOR][/QUOTE]I was with you until you got to this point. And I can't say that I agree. Even if you aren't making any profit by spreading those copies around, you are still essentially robbing the artists. Who's going to bother to buy the CD's if they know they can simply get a free copy? I can see making one for yourself, but to hand out to friends? No deal. That's still wrong. Even if you're not reselling it. Because in the end, the song doesn't belong to you, the music isn't yours in the sense that you have the right to turn around and give it to someone else.

[James]

[quote]Just those idiots behaving like they are robin hood stealing from the rich and so on.[/quote]

[color=#606060]Yep, bingo. Admitting you download music is one thing (I had just finished saying that I have and do download music on occasion). However, I don't believe people have the [i]right[/i] to do this.

The whole Robin Hood justification annoys me for various reasons. I don't particularly argue against people downloading in general...I just can't tolerate that particular justification.

The only justification I offer, personally, is that if I like the song I will buy the album on every occasion. If I don't like it? I'll delete it.

Of course, it's still probably illegal for me to download it in the first place. So there's the raw legal argument there too.

In terms of whether the law should be changed...that's a whole other thing. I'll have to edit my post or post later on to get into that one.[/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR="#004a6f"][quote name='Rachmaninoff']I was with you until you got to this point. And I can't say that I agree. Even if you aren't making any profit by spreading those copies around, you are still essentially robbing the artists. Who's going to bother to buy the CD's if they know they can simply get a free copy? I can see making one for yourself, but to hand out to friends? No deal. That's still wrong. Even if you're not reselling it. Because in the end, the song doesn't belong to you, the music isn't yours in the sense that you have the right to turn around and give it to someone else.[/QUOTE]Well, I would have to disagree with you there. I think that If you buy something, it is yours and you can do what you want with it. Sure, the song isn't yours, so you have no right to claim it as your intellectual property and make money off of it. However, the recording belongs to you, so you should be able to do what I want with it, including making copies.

It doesn't matter that less people would buy the CD if they could get copies. There's all sorts of things people can do so they don't have to buy things and make others profit. People can make their own clothes, or grow their own crops, but the government doesn't force us to buy from those who make a living off selling these things. I know you're again going to mention that the music is the artist's intellectual property, but as I already said, I think that the recording is yours and you should be able to do what you want with it. Even if it results in less sales for the record company and the artist.[/COLOR]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]I honestly can't see it as 'wrong', though. I mean... if that's the only way to hear the song without paying money for it, then ****, I'm not paying money for it, because I don't even know what it is. In my opinion, it's absolutely stupid to pay for something that you don't know what you're getting, and in a lot of cases, downloading is the only way to go.

Now, at that point, one of a few things might happen. If you don't like it, you won't buy it, obviously, and yo'll probably delete it. There's nothig wrong with that, OBVIOUSLY. Why? Because if you HAD bought it and you DIDN'T like it than the aritst was robbing YOU.

Now here's another thing. If you've downloaded it, liked it, now are you going to buy it? I mean, in most cases, you have to go buy the album, so you should at least download as much of the album as you need to know exactly what you're getting. But at that point, are you really going to buy what you already have? In some cases, yeah, of course. I just downloaded 3 songs off of the coming album by The Mars Volta (see: sig quote) and I now I'm buying it regardless (even if I hadn't heard those songs, lol).

But lets take an album like... Mogwai's Mr. Beast (which I do own, BTW). If I had downloaded that album, I would have liked it, and like I do now, listened to it occasionally whenever I please. However, would I have bought it? No. Because I don't like it quite THAT much. Now tell me, if I wouldn't have bought it anyway, is it wrong for me to have downloaded it? How can I rob someone of money I wouldn't have given them anyway?

For some people, who download music they love, and still don't buy it, they obviously had no intent of buying it at all. So, really, who's being robbed anyway? The only people who are going to pay artists are people who intend to pay artists or don't know how to get around paying them.

What's the intelligent choice on the part of the music industry? I think they should set up some kind of system for it. And I don't mean no goddamn itunes song-for-a-dollar ********. When it comes to dowloads, there should be a trial. They let you listen to it a certain number of times, and you can decide if you liked it, and want to buy it, or if you thought it wasn't really worth buying. And I don't mean some 3-listens-******** either. They should give enough times to REALLY know i you like the song - 10 at the least.

Wth 10 listens, you know if it's a song you want to contribute money to for the sake of being able to hear it any time at your leisure, or if you're fine with the number of times you've heard it (or even think that you've heard it too many times XD) and don't want to buy it.[/COLOR]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Chabichou'][COLOR="#004a6f"]It doesn't matter that less people would buy the CD if they could get copies. There's all sorts of things people can do so they don't have to buy things and make others profit. People can make their own clothes, or grow their own crops, but the government doesn't force us to buy from those who make a living off selling these things. I know you're again going to mention that the music is the artist's intellectual property, but as I already said, I think that the recording is yours and you should be able to do what you want with it. Even if it results in less sales for the record company and the artist.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]Well the thing is, when you make your own clothes, grow your own crops, make a desk like you mentioned... That takes work and effort. Copying a song to hand out takes little to no effort whatsoever. Now if you were take the time to play and record the song yourself then hey, I wouldn't say a word, since that would have taken effort on your part beyond pushing a few buttons on your computer.

Also, unlike clothing and food, music is a want not a need. You need clothing and food to survive, you don't need music. It's a luxury item. Where for the artist, that's their income, it's how they can afford to buy things like clothing and food. Or even the supplies they would need to do so if they chose to make that themselves.

It's easy to think it's no big deal when the one not getting paid isn't yourself.

James - I agree, I've downloaded something before, but then I had purchased the item in question and was merely waiting for the CD's to arrive. Which since I ordered them from Japan, it took a while. Naturally once they arrived I removed the songs since the original copy was far better.

2007DigitalBoy - I certainly think the system could use some sort of system so people can sample the music as you are suggesting. I like to know what I'm getting too. It's part of the reason I do listen to samples of stuff I order from overseas. I use youtube a lot for that kind of thing actually. Especially since it's more expensive to get things from other countries and I want to be sure that I really want to pay for it.

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]And to youtube users - do note that every single song you listen to on there was uploaded there i-l-l-e-g-a-l-l-y. After all, youtube policy says not to upload that crap, and they really work hard deleting as much as they can, though they honestly suck at it. [/COLOR]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='2007DigitalBoy'][COLOR="DarkOrange"]And to youtube users - do note that every single song you listen to on there was uploaded there i-l-l-e-g-a-l-l-y. After all, youtube policy says not to upload that crap, and they really work hard deleting as much as they can, though they honestly suck at it. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]I know... That's why I was agreeing with you that having a way to sample the music is a good idea. So people can hear stuff before they go out and buy it. Sure you could listen to the radio, but I never do. I hear stuff through other means since I hate commercials.

[Allamorph]

[FONT=Arial]Firstly,
[QUOTE][COLOR="#004a6f"]...so [B]you[/B] should be able to do what [B]I[/B] want with it,....[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Watch your tenses, bucko. :p

Anyway,
[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR="#004a6f"']Well, I would have to disagree with you there. I think that If you buy something, it is yours and you can do what you want with it.[/COLOR][/quote]
Ehh, to a point.

When a musical group makes a recording and puts it up for sale through a record label, they are licensing you the consumer the right to use their music for your own personal interest; in a sense, they are selling you ownership of that recording?the right to listen to it whenever you want.

If you give that recording [I]as a gift[/I] to another person, you are transferring ownership. You bought the rights to it, and you give those same rights to someone else.

The problem arises when you give those rights of ownership to another person while simultaneously keeping them for yourself: distribution of copied material. That is a duplication of rights that was not authorized by the original retainer of those rights, which is a violation of [I]their[/I] rights...rights that supersede your own. [I]They[/I] own the music, so [I]they[/I] decide who else can own it. You can't make that decision.

Also remember: you can make as many copies as you like. It's when you [I]distribute[/I]them that you overstep the law.

And this entire spiel is based on your "I can" as meaning "I have the right". Naturally you possess the ability to copy music, or any other CD, DVD, HDDVD, minidisk, or Blu-Ray (sp?) that you happen to own. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE][I][COLOR="#004a6f"]It doesn't matter that less people would buy the CD if they could get copies.[/COLOR][/I][/QUOTE]
Yes, it does.

Your analogy is flawed because you are relating this debate to the production of original material. Music recordings (and any recorded media) are unique in that they require no effort to reproduce, and each reproduction is an [I]exact] replica[/I] of the previous recording. Corn cannot be copied, so the entire analogy fails.

Record sales are how music artists get paid for doing their job: [I]entertaining you.[/I] If you want their music, you want their services, and you are required by law to pay them.


Nothing is preventing you from breaking the law, but you [I]are[/I] playing Russian Roulette by doing so. I wouldn't advise making a business of it.

It'd be non-profit, anyway, so where's the incentive? :p[/FONT]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR="#004a6f"][quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]Firstly,

Watch your tenses, bucko. :p

[/FONT][/QUOTE]Looks like I missed one. At first, I had all "I"s in the sentence, and then, I switched to "you"'s.

And in reply to your post, I would like to point out that I already acknowledged what the law is, but I suggested that it be changed.[/COLOR]

[Sojio]

You guys might be interested to know that downloading isn't illegal so long as you are able to prove that it is for educational reasons.


I recently finished an arts management and copyright course at my local music academy and while we were doing the copyright section the topic of downloading music came up.

Our lecturer told us the story of how an American college student downloaded 300 GB of music but proved to the court that he was downloading it for a study into music and society or something along those lines.

So as long as you can prove this I'm sure you are O.K Don't take my word for it though. :animeswea

As for my opinion i think that downloading music is bad for the music industry however i only think about my downloads and how they cant possibly have an impact on the figures. :animesmil

[James]

[color=#606060]I don't know if I agree with that really - it's like saying that walking out of a music store with a CD "for educational purposes" is protected under the law. I can't imagine that being the case.

But having said that, the law is still struggling to establish standards in this area. So it wouldn't surprise me if there are various loopholes at the moment.

The ultimate issue really is paying for the ownership or the permission to use whatever you've acquired (whether that is music or something else - no matter how you acquired it).
[/color]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][quote name='2007DigitalBoy'][COLOR="DarkOrange"]And to youtube users - do note that every single song you listen to on there was uploaded there i-l-l-e-g-a-l-l-y. After all, youtube policy says not to upload that crap, and they really work hard deleting as much as they can, though they honestly suck at it. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]Sorry, but you're wrong. There are companies out there that put songs up for people to listen to that are legit. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/user/warnerbrosrecords"][U]Warner Bros. Records[/U][/URL] They're the official channel for Warner Bros., Reprise, Sire, Warner Nashville, and Nonesuch Records. So saying everything on youtube is uploaded illegally is incorrect. Just thought I'd point that out. :p[/FONT][/COLOR]