Presidential Race

[James]

[quote]
I'll just clear this up right now. This is a common misconception. Remember this, everyone: America is NOT a Democracy. It is a Democratic Republic. Therefore, while we have many traits of Democratic states, we are, first and foremost, a Republic.

(Not that this affects the discussion much, I agree that any political system can be horribly corrupted by the right[?] people.)[/quote]

[color=#606060]Yeah, to be specific, the US is a Republic. That has nothing to do with democracy, lol. If you?re a Democratic Republic you are [i]still[/i] a Democracy.

It is a misconception to think that the two are completely different. Being a Republic has more to do with the function of your government and how your federal and state systems share powers ? you can be a Republic or a Monarchy and still be a Democracy.

Your system is still fundamentally a pluralist democracy; it is still a representative form of government.[/color]

[quote] I do think that representative governments are ideal, but just to reinforce an idea you mention later on, it's important that governments must differ according to their circumstances. My fuel for my arguments stem mostly from the idea that so many countries want what some other country has for a government, but may not take into consideration what's best for them. And the idea that a lot of American citizens think their form of government is superior, lol.[/quote]

[color=#606060]Well yeah, I would agree with this in principle. You can not always literally translate one form of government and place it on another country.

However, ?democracy? in terms of how we are using it here, means ?representative government?. This provides a massive scope for uniqueness.

For example, Australia is a democracy just like America. And yet our government does work differently on a functional level. We have a Prime Minister and a Governor General, each with their own constitutionally-afforded powers ? in this sense, we differ greatly from your Presidential system.

However, we are both still countries that have systems centered around representative government. I think that concept is pretty universal, no matter which specific systems are used.[/color]

[quote] Capitalism and democracy aren't mutually exclusive, yes, but I think having a capitalistic economy contributes greatly to building a liberal democracy. You have wealthy, middle-class people who will want some say in government, but it's just one factor among many.

I think it can be argued to an extent the capitalistic state of the major power cities in China will eventually, some time in the future, lead to some sort of political revolution. If a middle class is forming, that is. I really don't know much about China, though. I think the same can be applied to a lot of other countries, because it's just a universal theme in history.[/quote]

[color=#606060]I think that in China specifically, the introduction of a capitalist system will eventually lead to political reform. I think it has to, especially as China seeks to become a member of various international monetary bodies.[/color]

[quote] I agree with your point that corrupt democratic governments reflects badly on the abusers, but I think that what raises the chances of a radical abuser is the hasty implementation of democracy. I know it's sort of moot to argue that letting a country develop on its own will ensure safety, because the US went through turbulent times trying to institute its own government, but influencing and pushing other countries to adopt it isn't healthy.[/quote]

[color=#606060]I think the overall point is that you can?t set an arbitrary time frame on developing a democracy, especially when a country already has a history of democracy (Iraq).

It?s already been taking years and so far the signs are good; the participation rate in elections is historically high and there haven?t been any serious problems with Iraqi institutions. There is still a lot of work to be done, but the core functional stuff has been ready and running for a while now.

As for the US influence, I think you will find that Iraq as a country wanted to move back to a more pluralist democratic system. It simply required assistance to do so. The US was and is in a position to provide that. You?ll find that now, the US has little to do with the political system in Iraq ? the foundations are laid and the Iraqis themselves are continuing to reform it themselves.[/color]

[quote] I think it's the opposite, because Iraq had oil wealth went quickly into the hands of few, which blocked the way for good institution-building. Whereas in places like Japan, where resources were few, good institutions were made. Though bringing up Japan attacks my own point, because the influence the US used on Japan ended up being a relatively good thing.[/quote]

[color=#606060]In terms of your first point I?m not sure what you mean ? do you mean post-war or pre-war?

Post-war was very different to pre-war.

Iraq is a member of OPEC and its oil is sold on the international market; it now does not have the same trade restrictions as it once did.

You will find that Iraqi oil revenue is actually not going to any private companies in Iraq specifically; Iraqi oil is administered by the Iraq Oil Ministry and that revenue goes back to government coffers. This at least ensures that the money will be spent on public services like hospitals, police, military, water, power, etc?

The US influence on Japan was good, but I wish they had made it a condition of withdrawal that Japan acknowledge the horror she visited on her enemies. To this day Japan has not officially apologised. Australia (along with many of our neighbours) suffered greatly as a result of vicious Japanese POW camps. It would be nice to see their history books reflect this.[/color]

[Desbreko]

[quote name='James'][color=#606060]The US influence on Japan was good, but I wish they had made it a condition of withdrawal that Japan acknowledge the horror she visited on her enemies. To this day Japan has not officially apologised. Australia (along with many of our neighbours) suffered greatly as a result of vicious Japanese POW camps. It would be nice to see their history books reflect this.[/color][/QUOTE]

[center][img]http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9575/chiyosorryiq8.jpg[/img][/center]
[color=#4B0082]James, stop making Chiyo cry. :nono:[/color]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Desbreko'][center][img]http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9575/chiyosorryiq8.jpg[/img][/center]
[color=#4B0082]James, stop making Chiyo cry. :nono:[/color][/QUOTE]

I'm gonna side with Des and say that their ingrainment in our popular culture makes apology a moot point. (Is anyone really gonna make 'em? How about Hiroshima?)

[James]

[color=#606060]Tell that to the people who were tortured by Japanese soldiers. Or, you know, all the South Korean "comfort women" who were held against their will and raped on a daily basis.

Sorry to put a serious spin on the discussion, but I think quite a few people would say that [i]nothing[/i] makes apology a moot point.[/color]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='James'][color=#606060]Tell that to the people who were tortured by Japanese soldiers. Or, you know, all the South Korean "comfort women" who were held against their will and raped on a daily basis.

Sorry to put a serious spin on the discussion, but I think quite a few people would say that [i]nothing[/i] makes apology a moot point.[/color][/QUOTE]

True, but there is still Nagasaki and Hiroshima to consider. My point is that human history is riddled with countries doing ridiculously stupid things to each other, maybe we should just ignore whatever happened in the past and work hard to make sure it doesn't happen again. (There's no good way to voice my thoughts on this. Tust me, it doen't sound nearly as heartless in my head.)

[eleanor]

[quote name='Desbreko'][center][img]http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9575/chiyosorryiq8.jpg[/img][/center]
[color=#4B0082]James, stop making Chiyo cry. :nono:[/color][/QUOTE]

[font="trebuchet ms"] Neither funny nor classy.[/font]

[quote name='Aceburner']True, but there is still Nagasaki and Hiroshima to consider. My point is that human history is riddled with countries doing ridiculously stupid things to each other, maybe we should just ignore whatever happened in the past and work hard to make sure it doesn't happen again. (There's no good way to voice my thoughts on this. Tust me, it doen't sound nearly as heartless in my head.)[/QUOTE]

[font="trebuchet ms"] Yeah, but the thing is, those other countries have apologized. A lot of schools in Japan still act like the invasion of Korea and China were for 'their own good', and Japan was trying to 'liberate' them. Anime does not make up for rape and torture. Do you think the US influence on Japanese pop culture, which is a hell of a lot more than Japan on the US, makes up for the atomic bombs?

BTW, it's not like the US is denying that fact that we atomic bombed Japan, so if you're going to counter-argue Japan's atrocities, don't pick something that is universally mourned already. [/font]

[quote name='Aceburner']I'm gonna side with Des and say that their ingrainment in our popular culture makes apology a moot point. (Is anyone really gonna make 'em? How about Hiroshima?)[/QUOTE]

[font="trebuchet ms"] Yeah, I mean after watching cel-shaded schoolgirls titter around I don't even know why Japan should apologize for mass raping and murder. I don't even know why Germany apologized for the Holocaust, they gave us Oktoberfest!!![/font]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Lunox'][font="trebuchet ms"] Anime does not make up for rape and torture. This is why everyone hates Japanophiles.[/font][/QUOTE]

I wasn't saying that. I was saying that all things considered, after the adoption of their culture into our own, it would seem just a bit hypocritical to demand an apology. If one is made of their own free will, then I'm fine with it. Besides, it's more sincere that way. I agree that they probably should apologize, but with this much influence, it seems unlikely anyone will make them.

EDIT:
[quote name='Lunox'][font="trebuchet ms"]A lot of schools in Japan still act like the invasion of Korea and China were for 'their own good', and Japan was trying to 'liberate' them.[/font][/QUOTE]

Heck, that's Bush's excuse.

[eleanor]

[quote name='Aceburner']

Heck, that's Bush's excuse.[/QUOTE]

[font="trebuchet ms"] Yeah... the thing is, Japan did this about 50 years ago. Bush is now, and he won't exactly go down in history as the greatest president ever. [/font]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]Lighten up people and lets try to quit straying so far off topic. If you all really want to debate as to whether or not an apology for past tragedies is warranted then start a thread for that. Thanks.

As for the topic Presidential Race... I'm a bit disappointed in most if not all of the candidates. There isn't one that I feel strongly about voting for. I like Giuliani but I dislike Republicans and have no desire to put more of them in power. I'm not clearly with any party, even though I tend to vote more Democratic than other parties. But the problem with that is I don't really like Hillary either. :animesigh This is the first time that so far, unless something happens to change my views of the current hopefuls, I have no interest in voting.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]How my post was construed to mean that anime makes up for Japanese brutality during WWII, I can't even begin to imagine. But I'll refer people to a previous post of mine that I think is relevant to the situation:[/color]

[quote name='Desbreko'][color=#4B0082]People who wouldn't know a joke if it slapped them upside the head are killing OB imo. Someone needs to make a "How to appreciate internet humor" thread.[/color][/QUOTE]

[Maully]

[COLOR="SeaGreen"]Out of the 20-something people who are legitimately running, you can't find anyone to get behind? Me either, really. At least not out of the front runners. I live and breathe politics a lot of the time, but I really stopped paying attention to the primary runnings. In my state of Kansas, registered as unaffiliated, until this year I could not even vote in a primary. This year, Democrats finally allowed independents and unaffiliated registered voters to take part. The Republicans did not follow suit, openly saying that they thought it would skew the results too much and that people would vote in their primary just to be troublesome. *shrug*

I was really surprised when people started announcing so early that they were running. Now I'm a little burned out. I also have missed many of the debates. I do have general opinions on some of the candidates, but I find myself sadly under-informed from what I should be at this point.

Rudy would spend us into the grave, not to mention, his political career is built on selling times square to disney and being Captain 9-11. He did show leadership skills in a time of tragedy, rallying to results. If you're a republican, at least fiscally, I'm not sure what makes you look to him. I do agree with many of his stances, but they are the ones that make republicans bristle at him such as his opinions on gay marriage right and being prochoice.

Hilary-- I have never liked Hilary, and I cannot pinoint why. She has always seemed shady and underhanded to me. I do have to say, I admire her conviction to make sure that everyone in America can afford to go to the doctor. I do think that her idea this time around is actually better than HilaryCare. She's smart, I give her that. I don't like the way she became a Senator, Buying a house in NY state she lived in for 3 months and sold once she was elected. I also don't care how once the talk of presidential races came around, she started being less concrete in her statements about things she'd always stood for before to appeal more to the center and right, like gay marriage and being prochoice.

Obama-- I really like this guy, and I am really upset at anyone who puts forward his inexperience as a reason to not run. He's progressive and straightforward, funny and smart. He has some really great ideas and views on issues that resonate with me. One reason that senators and congressmen who have been in office for a long time don't get elected is that with thousands of votes to their record, there are sure to be inconsistancies. Look at Kerry "the flipflopper" anyone's record will show that sometimes people change their minds. I think that now is a great time for him to make a move. Now to contradict myself... not necessarily this move. I think that Obama needs to attach himself to someone quickly and un as VP or be a strong cabinet member for whoever does get elected. 2008 is not going to be his year, and I think that 2012 or 2016 is for him. It may sound strange, but in order for him to be elected, he may not want to make the big leap on the first time out...

In order to discuss any of the others in detail, I need to do some research. [/COLOR]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Desbreko'][color=#4B0082]How my post was construed to mean that anime makes up for Japanese brutality during WWII, I can't even begin to imagine. But I'll refer people to a previous post of mine that I think is relevant to the situation:[/color][/QUOTE]

It didn't. I'm just a moron.

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='SunfallE'][COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]As for the topic Presidential Race... I'm a bit disappointed in most if not all of the candidates. There isn't one that I feel strongly about voting for. I like Giuliani but I dislike Republicans and have no desire to put more of them in power. I'm not clearly with any party, even though I tend to vote more Democratic than other parties. But the problem with that is I don't really like Hillary either. :animesigh This is the first time that so far, unless something happens to change my views of the current hopefuls, I have no interest in voting.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]That really mirrors what I'm thinking as well, it's hard to have any interest when most of the candidates don't really stand out to you. I've tried to learn more to form an opinion, but so far I don't like any of them. And though I try to avoid parties, I'd rather not have another Republican president. Though they'd have to work really hard to be as annoying as Bush.

In the end I need to learn more, though like I said, it's kind of hard to be interested when so far not one of the candidates stands out in your mind. XP