Gaming Format War?!

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]I didn't even know that a format war [i]existed[/i] but apparently there is one and [url=http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/07/format-war-gets-more-warlike/]it has become violent.[/url]

Honestly, I couldn't even tell you the difference between HD and blue-ray. Anyone have an opinion about this?[/COLOR]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Deus ex Machina'][COLOR="DarkOrange"]I didn't even know that a format war [i]existed[/i] but apparently there is one and [url=http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/07/format-war-gets-more-warlike/]it has become violent.[/url]

Honestly, I couldn't even tell you the difference between HD and blue-ray. Anyone have an opinion about this?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson]You just heard about this? lol.[/color]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Deus ex Machina'][COLOR="DarkOrange"]I didn't even know that a format war [i]existed[/i] but apparently there is one and [url=http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/07/format-war-gets-more-warlike/]it has become violent.[/url][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2035/1913289286_6dfeffc0c5_m.jpg[/IMG]

Oh, it's not violent. It's epic.

(mine. from my photostream.)

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Be careful, people on the internet want to hurt you for your technological preferences. Because goddamn it, those bastards are just wrong![/size]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='Deus ex Machina'][COLOR="DarkOrange"]Honestly, I couldn't even tell you the difference between HD and blue-ray. Anyone have an opinion about this?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]My opinion is to simply wait and see just which one becomes more popular or rather more affordable. Until then, they can fight all they want since I really don't care one way or the other. [/COLOR]

[James]

[color=#606060]For a summary, Blu-ray and HD-DVD differ in a couple of key areas.

One, capacity. Blu-ray discs weigh in at around 50GB (with Sony promising 100GB discs shortly).

HD-DVD discs hold around 30GB.

The other difference is how they are made. If you produce DVDs in a factory, you only need to upgrade your existing equipment to manufacture HD-DVDs.

If you want to manufacture Blu-ray discs, you actually need to purchase new equipment - the laser required to press the discs is different.

So companies who make discs and who publish on them are pretty much divided abou the issue and they've formed consortiums on either side to push their preferred format.

There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the debate in a nutshell.

I personally think Blu-ray will come out on top; several major retailers have already dropped HD-DVD. You can never really tell so early, but it's not looking good for HD-DVD at this moment.[/color]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][quote name='James'][color=#606060]You can never really tell so early, but it's not looking good for HD-DVD at this moment.[/color][/QUOTE]The problem with that statement is that it's all to easy to find different opinions as to which side isn't doing well so as a result, like Crystia, I intend to sit it out and wait for one to become more widespread than the other. At this point in my opinion, it's not worth the expense to invest in either one.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Red]

[quote name='James'][color=#606060]
One, capacity. Blu-ray discs weigh in at around 50GB (with Sony promising 100GB discs shortly).

HD-DVD discs hold around 30GB.[/color][/QUOTE]

In fairness to HD-DVD there's a DVD Forum approved triple layer disc that can hold 50GB but the uptake has been incredibly slow.

[quote name='SunfallE'][COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]The problem with that statement is that it's all to easy to find different opinions as to which side isn't doing well so as a result, like Crystia, I intend to sit it out and wait for one to become more widespread than the other. At this point in my opinion, it's not worth the expense to invest in either one.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Actually blu-ray has been outselling HD-DVD in most territories, probably thanks to the PS3. As an example, blu-ray outsold HD-DVD 2:1 for the first 9 months of 2007 in the US. James is right, it's not looking too good for HD-DVD at the moment; but in general terms neither format is doing very well.

It could all change though...Betamax vs. VHS is a good example!

[Rachmaninoff]

I intend to wait as well, to see just which format comes out on top. I'd hate to spend the money on one only for it to fold and leave me with useless equipment. It's way to early to see just which format is going to end up being the one that becomes widely accepted. I see no need to state a preference or to argue over which is better. It will be interesting to see just which one makes it out on top though.

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Red']Actually blu-ray has been outselling HD-DVD in most territories, probably thanks to the PS3.[/QUOTE]

Actually, from what I've heard, PS3's blu-ray compatibility has been majorly stripped down. According to my sister, who owns a PS3, it's either the most expensive system or the bargain basement blu-ray player. I would think that the only way blu-ray would be on top due to PS3 would be because of gamers who already bought the system and don't want to buy a better blu-ray player.

(Note: this message is not here to start a console war. One war is enough here.)

[James]

[color=#606060]Yeah, as I said earlier, there are various large retailers that have now dumped HD-DVD. And when I say large retailers I'm referring to major chains that such a format would require to proliferate.

As for triple layer DVD...yeah, there isn't much point at the moment. If it can outclass a "next generation" format in terms of capacity, then that says a lot about HD-DVD.

I strongly suspect that Blu-ray will be picked up by most companies within the next couple of years if the current trend continues.

As for PS3, I'm not sure what you mean when you say its capabilities are stripped down. It's a pretty basic Blu-ray player, sure, but Sony are using firmware updates to increase the flexibility of the console as a movie player (i.e. by adding extra features as they start being incorporated into the discs themselves).

[/color]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='James'][color=#606060]As for PS3, I'm not sure what you mean when you say its capabilities are stripped down. It's a pretty basic Blu-ray player, sure, but Sony are using firmware updates to increase the flexibility of the console as a movie player (i.e. by adding extra features as they start being incorporated into the discs themselves).[/color][/QUOTE]

Ah, that explains it. I heard somewhere that it was missing a few features, but no worries if firmware's gonna fix it.

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]I with the other who're sitting on the fence for this "war". I've no over-powering desire to upgrade to high definition for the moment, so it's as easy and cheap for me to just wait and watch at this point. [/SIZE]

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]Since there's no HDTV to be found in my house I'm rather indifferent about the standards war for now. Not to mention I hardly watch movies so I wouldn't bother buying a player anyway.

About the only thing I care about for HD-DVD and Blu-ray as video standards is that we'll hopefully see the end of the utter crap that is 3-6 anime episodes per disc. I want to see full 26 episode series on one disc, which will be possible with the increased capacity and the use of the h.264 video codec.

What I'm actually looking forward to, however, is when they finally settle on one and start getting PC recorder drives out for it. The higher capacity per disc will make data archiving and backup so much easier.[/color]

[Dagger]

[quote name='Desbreko'][color=#4B0082]About the only thing I care about for HD-DVD and Blu-ray as video standards is that we'll hopefully see the end of the utter crap that is 3-6 anime episodes per disc. I want to see full 26 episode series on one disc, which will be possible with the increased capacity and the use of the h.264 video codec.[/color][/QUOTE]
I'm not sure that, in the end, the increased capacity will make much of a difference. Older non-cel series won't benefit much from being in hi-def, so it'll certainly be possible for them to get re-released on one disc, but I can't imagine the price would be any different from a regular multi-disc collection.

I'm under the impression that true HD material takes up so additional space that remastered cel-animated shows and newer hi-def shows (like Kanon and Gundam 00) will probably have to be split across more than one disc, even in the new formats.

~Dagger~

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]Actually, I did the math and there's no reason they shouldn't be able to get 26 HD quality episodes on one 50 GB disc. Given a 26 minute running length per episode, that's 26 x 26 = 676 minutes of video. 676 x 60 gets us 40,560 seconds. Now let's say episodes are encoded at, oh, 9,000 kbps. 40,560 x 9,000 = 365,040,000 kilobits. Divide that by 8 to get 45,630,000 kilobytes, then divide by 1,024 twice to get ~43.5 gigabytes?easily enough room for all 26 episodes.

Now consider that there are fansubs out there of, for example, Shakugan no Shana Second that are encoded at 1280x720 (720p, an HD standard) in h.264. Taking ep4 for example, it's encoded at only 1,339 kbps (that includes the audio stream too) and still looks very nice with few noticeable compression artifacts. Throwing another 7,661 kbps at it for a second English audio stream and improved video quality will be plenty.

So unless they're going to move up to 1920x1080 (1080p), they really have no excuse.

I don't expect it to be a lot cheaper that way (though packaging a single disc should cost a fair bit less than packaging a set) but it would be a whole lot more convenient.[/color]

[Dagger]

I must confess that I'm in no position to argue with math. :animeswea That said, for whatever reason, the upscaled Air Blu-ray set was spread across four discs. May have been because they didn't encode it in h.264? (I wouldn't really know...)

~Dagger~

[James]

[color=#606060]I doubt the capacity will make much difference to only having a few episodes per disc. It's not about capacity, it's about revenue.

I guarantee that if they can slot an entire series on one Blu-ray disc, they will charge accordingly. So I doubt that aspect will get any better for consumers.[/color]

[Guest The Blue Jihad]

Funny thing is there's really no format war currently. Sure you've got some stupid rivalry going on, but ultimately, it's a pointless pissing contest. Neither format is actually going to win, because in everything I've read regarding this "war", every company involved is missing the ****ing point: your format means jackshit.

Unless production studios get their acts together, their movies are still going to suck plenty hard no matter if it's Blu-ray or HD-DVD.

Take storage capacity. Who gives a **** if your disc can hold 40 gigs more than the competitors' when you don't do a worthwhile thing with those extra 40 gigs? And really, it's the problem I have with both formats. Currently, a new disc format is unnecessary.

[B]Visuals[/B]. With a good HDTV and a good upscaling DVD player, you're going to get a pretty amazing image without Blu-ray or HD-DVD. Hell, on my TV, Jurassic Park Collector's Edition (2000) looks incredible. Now, sure, if you do take the hi-def plunge, the picture will look even better, but there's zero real incentive to take that plunge, especially since upscaling DVD players have gotten better and cheaper over the years.

[B]Storage[/B]. Unless the studio is re-mastering every little detail so you can see nose-hairs, having 50-100 gigs means absolutely nothing. And even then, if that 50-100 gigs is letting you see nose-hairs...I...don't know if that's all that desirable.

The only way I could see hi-def storage being useful is through actual content, and as it stands now, standard DVDs are able to do that plenty fine. Shaun of the Dead is on my shelf next to me. Great content, both in the film and special features.

[B]Selection and Quality[/B]. Who the **** wants to watch crap like The Santa Clause 3 (Blu-ray) or Spawn (HD-DVD)? I don't give a shat what format is "technically superior" when the movies being released make me want to kill a small child.

~*~*~

Plus, the future of hi-def entertainment (and most entertainment in general) is going to be digital distribution, anyway, so all of these companies investing this much into physical discs is hilarious.

[Desbreko]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']Plus, the future of hi-def entertainment (and most entertainment in general) is going to be digital distribution, anyway, so all of these companies investing this much into physical discs is hilarious.[/QUOTE][color=#4B0082]I might agree with you there except for one big setback: Internet connections have a ways to go before most people will be willing to download HD movies. Even lower end broadband connections are only just starting to become the norm, so it's going to be a good while before most people have fast enough connections to keep it from taking days to download such large files. In that time I think there's room for an HD disc format to fill the gap.

Not to mention you'd need freaking huge hard drives to store many HD movies. Discs are still a very practical means of storage.[/color]

[James]

[color=#606060]The other thing is, when DVD first came out a lot of people wondered what the point was. Minimal improvements in visual quality combined with few titles being available? And few early DVDs taking advantage of bonus features? What the?

This is the case for every single new format. These new formats are still fighting for a foothold with studios and developers right now...and although they are available to buy, there is no question that they are not mainstream formats right now.

So on some level the debate is purely intellectual because this isn't really affecting what consumers buy today - DVD is still dominant.

However the debate is worthwhile in terms of discussing DVD's replacement format. Like DVD, it will take a few more years for Blu-ray/HD-DVD to become a mainsteam industry format.

There's no question that a new physical format will be required within ten years anyway, partly because of those capacity constraints. That these new capacities are not being used amazingly well right now is to be expected, really.

Also, upscaling is not the same as native resolution. Yes, a lot of the older films are simply being reformatted. The difference will largely come when films are produced in native resolutions that cater to these formats. That's still a while off, but again, we aren't talking about a current mainstream product - we are talking about a product that won't become standard for at least another few years.[/color]

[Guest The Blue Jihad]

[quote name='Desbreko'][COLOR=#4b0082]I might agree with you there except for one big setback: Internet connections have a ways to go before most people will be willing to download HD movies. Even lower end broadband connections are only just starting to become the norm, so it's going to be a good while before most people have fast enough connections to keep it from taking days to download such large files. In that time I think there's room for an HD disc format to fill the gap.

Not to mention you'd need freaking huge hard drives to store many HD movies. Discs are still a very practical means of storage.[/COLOR][/quote]

It's not as far off as you'd think. Digital distribution doesn't only include internet-based distribution. Most digital cable boxes you see can come with DVRs. Most digital entertainment services feature some type of On-Demand option. XBL Marketplace has been offering hi-def movies and TV shows for about a year, I think. And interestingly enough, just the other day, I saw a few articles about a new internet/PC-based method of movie distribution. Plus, with Web 2.0 and fiberoptic, I see less and less limitations regarding strictly internet distribution.

So, given the advances in digital media distribution in even just the past year...discs aren't going to be very practical and sooner than you think.

[James]

[color=#606060]I agree that digital distribution will play a major factor. But physical media will remain important for a long time yet. This is mostly because there are still many very large markets in the world that just don't have the broadband infrastructure right now.

There are really only a handful of countries that are going to benefit greatly from enhanced digital distribution.

There's also the fact that a lot of consumers - especially those who aren't as tech savvy - aren't really dabbling in this area right now. Many still prefer the relative comfort of having a physical copy of their chosen movie.

Still, I don't doubt that one day in the future digital distribution will be the dominant form globally. And in the meantime the smarter companies are going to have to try to cater to both audiences as much as possible - those who ignore digital distribution do so at their own peril.

I also think one of the biggest question marks is how digital rights management (DRM) is going to change over the years. We're starting to see some positive signs, but it's still highly restrictive and that, in turn, is partly responsible for holding back digital distribution. The mindset and corporate culture of many of the major publishers is going to have to change as well.[/color]

[Desbreko]

[quote name='The Blue Jihad']Web 2.0[/QUOTE][color=#4B0082]I'm sorry, but you just lost the argument. Web 2.0 is a buzzword that's thrown around to refer to stuff like social networking uses of the internet and has nothing to do with infrastructure or connection speeds. lol

Incidentally, I also just lost the Game. :o[/color]

[Guest The Blue Jihad]

Certainly digital distribution has a few major kinks to work out yet, but even with DRM issues and corporate complications, we're much closer than most people think. Recording a hi-def broadcast live onto both the DVR and to a hard copy DVD is dramatically easier than it was even earlier this year. There's no doubt in my mind that non-tech-savvy users will be able to do it with ease after a few minutes. The advances within the past year have been tremendously interesting.

Oddly enough, XBL Marketplace has also done a lot to influence how casual users can access hi-def content. There you have a nice chunk of space to play with (120 gig hard drive), HDMI output, and a UI that's incredibly streamlined and easy to use.

Regarding when DVDs debuted, problem with that comparison is that there wasn't much to argue [I]for[/I] on the side of VHS. The visuals and sound were grainy. The tapes themselves had a nasty risk of permanent physical damage. Generally you wanted to [I]avoid[/I] watching a VHS multiple times due to how much wear and tear occurred when it was spooled through the VCR.

Back then it was an ancient technology, and the argument as I remember it wasn't so much "VHS is good enough." It was "DVD isn't all that impressive."

And granted, there was some truth to that assessment. Particular players and DVDs looked like *** on-screen. I remember watching Out of Sight during a test and thinking what in the hell was wrong with the aspect ratio. But even then, there was no contest which was the superior format between VHS (status quo) and DVD. Plus, unlike today, there were killer app films back then (The Matrix) that showed everyone why DVDs were truly a necessary step.

Today...we have a current format (DVD) that performs exquisitely well across the board, whether in SD or HD. The technology of Blu-ray/HD-DVD is not as "years ahead" as DVDs were to VHS, particularly when it comes down to performance for 95% of the population. Our DVD players have improved to the point where having a half-decent player with half-decent upscaling ability is better than "good enough."

Sure, upscaling [I]is[/I] radically different than a film being "made" in a native hi-def resolution. But realistically, it doesn't matter, because when something like Jurassic Park is upscaled and still blows you away, visually, that's incredibly significant.

In all honesty, I see this format war puttering out. There's not going to be a clear winner, even four or five years from now. And whichever format does come out on top is going to be seeing immense competition from the few companies who were exploring and expanding digital distribution. And come to think of it, big reason I see that digital distribution might take another few years to really kick off [I]is because[/I] so many companies are focusing all of these resources on physical media.

It's not terribly difficult to avoid alienating the users who enjoy having those "hard copies" on their shelves, either. Standardize the recording tools that tech-heads have been using for years and you're golden.

EDIT: Des, the industry is looking at it as a new, faster way to distribute information using existing technology. Combine that faster, more efficient means with fiberoptics and you've got yourself a remarkably better way to transfer data.

[URL]http://www.internet2.edu/[/URL]

Plus, even as much as you'd like to be a little ***** about it, Internet2 (or Web 2.0, whichever you prefer) isn't something to be scoffed at. It's a viable new way of examining data and information transfer.