ENDA passes House

[eleanor]

[font="trebuchet ms"] For those of you who don't know, ENDA (Employment Non-Discrimination Act) is an act making a federal law that prohibits discrimination against employees based on sexual orientation. Gay rights advocates have been trying to pass this legislation for years, but finally this year it was given serious consideration.

The main problem that people had with it was when 'transgender' people were added to the list; it sparked a debate between realists who knew the bill would only pass if that part were omitted and idealists who wanted ENDA to represent all people.

The transgender part was eventually omitted after lengthier-than-usual debate over the bill, and it actually passed.

While there's not chance the bill was become an actual law (very slim chances that it will pass in the Senate and Bush has already announced that he will veto ENDA no matter what), it's a small victory for now. I'm glad the House was able to pass this, just as show that they support this kind of legislation. Although right now I've found another reason to dislike Bush and some Republicans, who claim the bill will violate the 1st Amendment because religious people shouldn't have to hire gay people when it goes against their religion.

Hilariously bad defense, but that's what they do I guess.[/font]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Lunox'][font="trebuchet ms"]Although right now I've found another reason to dislike Bush and some Republicans, who claim the bill will violate the 1st Amendment because religious people shouldn't have to hire gay people when it goes against their religion.

Hilariously bad defense, but that's what they do I guess.[/font][/QUOTE]

Here's a thought: why would they want to work somewhere where they will be looked down upon anyway?

Really the only problem I see with this legislation is that I don't really see what is keeping homosexuals from unhindered employment in the first place.

[James]

[quote name='Aceburner']

Really the only problem I see with this legislation is that I don't really see what is keeping homosexuals from unhindered employment in the first place.[/QUOTE]

[color=#606060]I think that sort of demonstrates why it's important to educate people about the realities of the modern workplace. I don't mean that in a negative light; I literally mean that some non-gay people are totally ignorant that there's even a problem.

I'm glad this measure passed, but I'm amazed it has taken America so long. We have had this kind of anti-discrimination law in Australia for many years (including transgender people). So it's just commonly accepted here that you do not discriminate on such grounds.

Anyway, even baby steps are better than no steps.[/color]

[Guest The Blue Jihad]

Way I see it, when I reach the White House, I'm gonna make it gay. Totally, utterly, flamingly gay. It'll still be white on the outside, but inside will be a burning menagerie of pinks and purples.

My campaign will be so much fun.

[eleanor]

[quote name='Aceburner']

Really the only problem I see with this legislation is that I don't really see what is keeping homosexuals from unhindered employment in the first place.[/QUOTE]

[font="trebuchet ms"] Possibly people who hate gay people. Just a thought.[/font]

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"]But, get a gay president, and they'll probably become excepted more. It's common in legistlature.

As for Bush vetoing it, he needs to get a ****ing motive and buckle down. Another issue that's pissing me off his the withdrawl of toops and the health-care crisis. He keps vetoing the laws that could actualy help up. I hope the new president isn't a big **** up.

But it's not all Bush's fault. It's also the dumbasses that voted for him.[/COLOR]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Lunox'][font="trebuchet ms"] Possibly people who hate gay people. Just a thought.[/font][/QUOTE]

The most influential homophobe I know of right now is Fred Phelps. And that's because of his message of hate, not position of leadership. From my understanding, homosexual employment is pretty easy to come by, but maybe that's coming from a liberal state. I can't really speak for the rest of the country. All I know is that I myself have heard of no such problem. Besides, I could swear the Constitution already covered this. Something about "all men are created equal."

[quote name='Gunslinger']But it's not all Bush's fault. It's also the dumb***es that voted for him.[/quote]

Whoa, there, buddy! That IS, after all, over half the nation!

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"]Doesn't homophobe mean homophibic? Afraid of homosexuals? Most of these guys aren't afraid of them, they just misunderstand and hate them. I hate the word homophobe, it's meaning isn't thought out well.[/COLOR]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Gunslinger'][COLOR="77656"]Doesn't homophobe mean homophibic? Afraid of homosexuals? Most of these guys aren't afraid of them, they just misunderstand and hate them. I hate the word homophobe, it's meaning isn't thought out well.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Actually, I agree. It seems kind of stupid. However, there's really no better way I know of to put it. Besides, hate stems from fear, right? Just ask Yoda.

[James]

[quote]Besides, I could swear the Constitution already covered this. Something about "all men are created equal."[/quote]

[color=#606060]I don't think "all men are created equal" is actually considered to be a specific piece of legislation or a specific amendment. By that I mean, it's a vague statement that doesn't at all reflect the reality of American legislation.

The fact that there are still various legislations to pass to make people of minorities truly equal pretty much demonstrates that I'd say.

Also I should point out that there is plenty of evidence of discrimination in this area. I've read about American schools that have fired teachers once they discovered that they were gay - so there are definitely issues there. And of course, the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy is directly related to employment discrimination.

So there are many examples if you pay attention to news in general, I think. Any laws that bring things into balance - or that help - are going to be welcomed by those who feel that they aren't being adequately served by existing laws.

And Gunslinger, I agree with you but I'd say that homophobia is still a pretty accurate term. That "hate" is often a manifestation of fear and discomfort, especially among those who are uncertain about their sexuality.[/color]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='James'][color=#606060]I don't think "all men are created equal" is actually considered to be a specific piece of legislation or a specific amendment. By that I mean, it's a vague statement that doesn't at all reflect the reality of American legislation.[/color][/QUOTE]

Yeah, you're right as usual. That's really part of the Preamble, so it doesn't hold much weight. Heck, slaves were still kept decades after that line was written. I just wish we'd get it together and decide that lack of legislation shouldn't distract from common courtesy.

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"]Not necceserily, I hate the word Homophobe, but I'm not afraid of it. Some people don't go near homosexuals because they think they'll get ***-raped. I don't think that, but people at my school think that and it pisses me off. Hey, girls don't come up to you and rape you, so why would a gay guy do it? People just don't think.

Now that bastard Phelps isn't afraid either, he's just didiotic and he just doesn't people. People are born gay, they can't help it. I don't feel comfortable when gay people talk about kissing, having sex with and loving other men, but I don't hate them for it.

Some guys actually want to beat up homosexuals, and that is vile, cruel and moronic. And usually the guys who act like gays are immoral are usually hiding somethign about themselves.

EDIT: I get what you mean James. I have a friend named James ironically, who says he was homophobic, but his friend was one and he knew it. I doon't think he would be hanging around him if he was really homophobic. Homophobic is an accurate word a lot of the time. But in cases like Phelp's, it's just ignorance and stupidity that fuel hate, not fear.[/COLOR]

[James]

[color=#606060]Aceburner, I agree with you. It would be nice if people would generally hold to that mantra...nevertheless, I guess it's a nice ideal. :catgirl:

Gunslinger: I still think that fear motivates much of the hate. If you consider that some people think homosexuality can be "taught", that's obviously motivated by the fear that exposing yourself or your child could "make you gay". And obviously people are afraid of that.

So I'd say that fear is borne of ignorance, but the fear itself is what leads to hatred.

The same is true with racism, especially pre-Civil Rights era. The hatred of black people was largely motivated by the fact that white people were afraid of them. It's not necessarily an outright horror-type of fear...it's a discomfort, or a mistrust, or a fear of different ideals...or whatever.[/color]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Gunslinger'][COLOR="77656"]People are born gay, they can't help it. I don't feel comfortable when gay people talk about kissing, having sex with and loving other men, but I don't hate them for it.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Tis is where I respectfully disagree. Babies have no sexual orientation. That's what we call a "Life Choice." Sure, events may transpire to influence one way or another, but that's like saying I was born to join Karate. My personality, which was fostered by my parents, combined with a deep unwillingness to take crap, drove me to join up, where I made new friends and, ironically enough, became more tolerant of jerks.

Bottom line: Babies aren't born with anyone's pants on their mind.

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]I do not approve of the insinuation being made here that the majority of people in America are all gay fearing, gay bashing, intolerant, self serving, bigoted jerkoffs.

It's easy to sit back and call Americans homophobic simply because of well publicized cases of homophobia in the workplace, but since anti-discrimination laws are already in effect on a national level, ENDA is completely and utterly pointless.

It is ILLEGAL to ask a potential employee their sexual orientation, and those that make it obvious, or even answer questions that could inform the employer of their orientation are just unaware of this fact. In the same vein, it's illegal to discriminate against hiring females, people of a certain religion, or those in a certain age group. As a bisexual female, I manage to get job offers regardless of my orientation, perhaps because I never answer questions during interviews that could tip off my potential boss as to who I might happen to be attracted to.

Oh yes. Legislate away, but employers are still going to find some excuse to not hire people they don't want to hire. And as far as gay president? ......No. And why would Bush veto such a bill? Aside from the fact that it would destroy any standing he'd have with his political base, there would be more than just a few Americans that would loathe this move.

You're forgetting that he's a politician. He has to play to his Republican base. And the Republican base is comprised of Heartland Americans, at the grassroots level, that holds onto Christian beliefs and values that are at odds with virtually everyone else. But that's what you get. I'm not saying all Republicans are homophobic, or even are slightly uncomfortable around gays. But the people writing the Republican party checks, are the people you have to please. Things are never as simple as we'd like them to be, but keep on saying 'BUSH IS TEH MORON OMG AMERICA IS DUMB!'

It just reminds me why I never threw my hat into either the Republican or Democratic party.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"]Aceburner, being gay isn't a choice. Every gay guy I know, hell, every gay person I know has said that. Someone I know has even said 'we can't help it if we were born that way' when eh talked about getting maid fun of. And as far as I'm concerened, babies are born with sexual orientation. They just aren't aware of it yet, as with memories, language and other various things.

And I know if my girlfriend was told that she couldn't go to school because she's bi, I'd beat the living **** out of whoever told her so. Discriminating against a women just because she's a women? Now if people would research, woman are the superior race in this world, without them, where would us men be? It's a fact that women are showed to have a slightly higher I.Q. than men.

Women deserve respect, and the men who don't give them that should. Than there are the women-disrespecting-women. My girlfriend was kicked out of the girl's bathroom for being bi by the other girls, and if I were her, I wouldn't stand for it.

And maybe we should make a new thread for women discrimination. >_>[/COLOR]

[James]

[quote name='Aceburner']Tis is where I respectfully disagree. Babies have no sexual orientation. That's what we call a "Life Choice." Sure, events may transpire to influence one way or another, but that's like saying I was born to join Karate. My personality, which was fostered by my parents, combined with a deep unwillingness to take crap, drove me to join up, where I made new friends and, ironically enough, became more tolerant of jerks.

Bottom line: Babies aren't born with anyone's pants on their mind.[/QUOTE]

[color=#606060]I don't really want to get into another one of these debates but...sexuality is definitely not a choice.

You have to look at it more broadly than who's pants you want to get into.

When you have a crush on someone or you fall in love, you don't choose it. You don't consciously sit there and say "I think I'll fall for that person...[i]now[/i]."

If it were a choice, nobody would ever have heartache because we'd be able to detach our attraction from someone simply by choosing it.

So please do not make the mistake of suggesting that attraction/orientation is a choice. It isn't. Very few people would consciously choose to be gay, especially given the inherent restrictions (especially related to having children).

I don't want this topic to turn into a "being gay isn't natural" thread or whatever - we've been there and it's always the same. I would ask that we go back to focusing on the issue of legislation, as has been mentioned at the start of the topic.

I just want to make sure that misconceptions are addressed and that we go back to focusing on the topic before we stray too far from it.

And on that note, I would be interested to know about those from countries other than America - I'd be interested to know what their laws are like in this area. Some of our European members might have an interesting perspective on the legal issues.

Edit: I posted at the same time as Raiha. I need to correct something you said there.

Those people who "made a life choice" are only deciding to follow an inherent element of their personality. In other words, they've stopped ignoring their fundamental instincts and decided to "give it a try".

This should not be mistaken for a straight person simply deciding to be gay one day. Doesn't work like that.[/color]

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Seeing as how you haven't been on this planet for too long Gunslinger, I wouldn't be surprised that you haven't run into the other group of gay males that decided that they would in fact like to like other boys. A Self Aware Choice. A choice made on their own over time as they find their identity. Kinda like how I discovered gradually that I was in fact like most women. I am erotically plastic. I am turned on by whoever happens to make me feel good. Male, female, either and or.

Edit: My fundamental instincts are to obtain pleasure regardless of gender. Am I just a nutterbutter?

And as far as women being superior? We are not superior. We are equal. As far as your little statistic about a slightly higher IQ? That's crap and anyone who knows just a tiny bit about statistics knows it. Don't even get me started on how the IQ test measures intelligence, because that is inherently flawed all on its own.

In a world without women, odds are males would be a lot calmer, less stressed, and less prone to invading other countries to prove their manliness.

And that part about your girlfriend not being able to stand up to a bunch of bullies, I believe that's something that should make her stronger. Of course as your boyfriend, you could beat up those girls, but then you'd get in trouble yourself, and quite frankly I don't see a point, even if it is to protect someone you like. I told my female friends I was attracted to females, and nobody came to kill me. But then again it's probably because I'm armed at all times. You should look into that. But this begs the question, why was your girlfriend acting bisexual in a bathroom? That's just asking for trouble.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"]Good point. If women didn't exist we wouldn't be such show offs. And, no I haven't been on earth long, so I'm still discovering stuff about this planet.

I thought I was bi once, but as I found my identity, I discovered I wasn't. Sadly I don't know the difference between that and denial. All I know is denial means you don't think you are straight, and for some reason I think there is more to it. :animeswea

As for telling your friends, true freinds won't turn their back on you because of orientation. Otheriwse, if they don't except you for who you are, they are not your friends.

James: What are the people's views about homosexuality in Australia?

Raiha: She wsn't acting bisexual, she is bisexual. She's dated a girl ad she likes girls. Actually there was this protest at her school because they wouldn't let a lesbian couple become homecoming queen and king. Startign next year, the school is allowing same-sex couples become king and king or queen and queen, which I think is a brave step for this area. Where I live, people aren't too open about these things and that ead's to threats and trouble. [/COLOR]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Gunslinger'][COLOR="77656"]Aceburner, being gay isn't a choice. Every gay guy I know, hell, every gay person I know has said that. Someone I know has even said 'we can't help it if we were born that way' when eh talked about getting maid fun of. And as far as I'm concerened, babies are born with sexual orientation. They just aren't aware of it yet, as with memories, language and other various things.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I won't delve into it any more, but those are lousy examples. Language is taught and memories acquired. Self discovery is a cumulation of all that has happened in the past, not "Oh, snaps, I guess I'm gay." You weren't born speaking fluent English, were you?

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"]I know they're lousy. And no, I was using language as an overall.

But it's true, it's not choice. As James said you can't just say, I'm going to be gay today and have it be true.

If Sandy was here, he could explain it better than I can.[/COLOR]

[Raiha]

[quote name='Gunslinger'][COLOR="77656"]

Raiha: She wsn't acting bisexual, she is bisexual. She's dated a girl ad she likes girls. Actually there was this protest at her school because they wouldn't let a lesbian couple become homecoming queen and king. Startign next year, the school is allowing same-sex couples become king and king or queen and queen, which I think is a brave step for this area. Where I live, people aren't too open about these things and that ead's to threats and trouble. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Wait wait wait. I didn't mean to imply that she ISN'T bisexual, I was just wondering why she was acting out her sexual orientation in a bathroom. And while that protest is indicative of the usual societal problems in America, things do change. They just don't happen over night. Of course, I don't really see a point to a lesbian couple as homecoming King and Queen, mostly because I always mentally associated 'Homecoming' with 'Popularity Contest.' It's possible I'm biased in that sense...

But back to the real topic. You can't pass this bill and expect all Americans to instantly become accepting of non heterosexuals. And you can't protest and demand change, because that just gets the people all riled. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"]Sorry about the misunderstaning. She was going out with the girl at the time of being kicked out, and she wasn't acting it out. She was also kicked out of the locker room. Being bi by the girls wasn't the best thing to say. I didn't exactly mean it like that, I'm just not good at explaning stuff like that right. As for the deeper details, about the bathroom incident: I don't know much more.[/COLOR]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='James][color=#606060']Those people who "made a life choice" are only deciding to follow an inherent element of their personality.[/color][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Question for all present:

How does one develop a personality?[/FONT]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Gunslinger'][COLOR="77656"]But it's true, it's not choice. As James said you can't just say, I'm going to be gay today and have it be true.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Now [U]that[/U] I never said. And I don't feel like discussing this for now, so back to the legislation. Any opinions?