Death from a Cyber Bully

[vegeta rocker]

I don't know if any of you have heard of this but i figured since this is an online forum that this would be the ideal place to discuss it.

The internet exposes us all to many different people and cultures, I have met many people on here who I try to consider friends. Sure we have no real life contact but I feel like we have a common ground.

Now what if someone you talked to and trusted on the internet suddenly turned on you and made you feel bad about yourself? That was the case with a thirteen year old girl who was suffering from depression and hanged herself because of it.

The sad thing is the person she believed to be a friend was a former friend's parent posing as a young boy.

She said some hurtful things to the young girl and while not outwardly threatening and bashing her; she drove her to kill herself.

The article i am linking to doesn't talk about all the things said back and forth but i chose this particular one since it gives a broad idea of the entire matter and supplies a video clip of the news story.

At one point the adult posing as the young boy called the girl and slut and even was reported saying the world would be better off without her.

So my question is, do you think what the mother did was a crime?

Do you think she should be held responsible for the girls death, and has cyberbullying ever happened to you?

I personally think that she shares some of the responsibility and while she can't be directly linked to it, she knew of the girls struggle with depression and crossed the line.

Should she go to jail? I don't think so, but I think she should have some punishment.
Maybe paying for the girls funeral, a public apology something that shows she is sorry for the events she set into motion.

[URL="http://www.abcnews.go.com/WN/Story?id=3903188&page=2"]Click here for article[/URL]

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]Maybe it's the fact that I just woke up, and I'm not really a morning person, but in the idea that this...creature won't face punishment for what she's done absolutely sickens me to the core. I'm normally completely against the death penalty, but in this case, I don't think a short drop and a quick stop is unfitting for the crime.

I mean ****, for a parent to do this to someone else's kid ? All I'm left with is asking why ?[/SIZE]

[AzureWolf]

Funny, I just finished ranting on my blog on how this guy kept telling me to die just because he couldn't control my voice outside of his insignificant site.

Anyway, you can't really take much legal action except a harassment charge. If you try to make her responsible for anything more, you open the door for less and less direct degrees of murder. People will find themselves in the court after a small fight because a friend died due to increased road rage or something.

But off the table justice like what the article mentions is sufficient, IMO. The girl and her mother are basically defaced and blacklisted. All their information online will give them a taste of their own medicine.

[eleanor]

[font="trebuchet ms"] What's really disgusting is that the family who pretended to be Josh still hasn't issued any sort of apology or public sign of remorse.

From what I've read, the neighbors of the Drews (family who pretended to be myspace boy) absolutely want them gone, and protestors are there and have called the factory the father works at and other businesses related to the Drews. I'm sure part of this is illegal, and part of it is justified, but I'm left wondering what the heck the Drews are going to do. I don't understand why they're not giving an apology. If they're worried it will just bring more ridicule and shame, than they're being cowards, and if they just don't want to apologize, that's even more disgusting. [/font]

[Fish]

[SIZE="2"][COLOR="Red"]This is an interesting topic...

Well, anyways, I got a mixed opinion. Sure the "Bully" was wrong but was the fault only one sided? Look at it from the prospective. I personally think only somebody who is currently emotionally unstable would end up hanging themselves over the internet.

Could the parents of the kid be faulted with the tragedy? I know if I had an unstable child, no way would I allow them on the internet.

Still, the "Bully" is a monster and should face legal actions.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[vegeta rocker]

The main thing i think they should do is apologize, but the marriage for both parties has ended in divorce so maybe that makes it harder.

Well like with certain offenders and hackers the court rules they are not allowed on the internet; maybe that would be a good punishment.

[Rachmaninoff]

What I don't understand or rather what I find the saddest about this entire thing is that it was a parent who did it over the most trivial of matters. Deliberately harassing another kid to find out if they said mean things about their daughter. I mean she was pretending to be someone online and instead of simply asking she spreads rumors and hate messages about a girl she knows in real life?

What kind of sick parent puts someone else's kid through that kind of cruel treatment and then doesn't even have the decency to apologize to the family? As much as I hate vigilante justice, but seeing that it seems that the police aren't going to do anything, I don't feel sorry that others found out and are giving the mother grief over what she did to that poor girl.

I mean regardless if she knew about the girls depression issues or not, her behavior was far from responsible or even 'adult' in my opinion. That's far worse than someone saying rude things about her own daughter. The whole thing is just sick really, that she would even do that in the first place.

[Konata]

In the case that the "cyber bully" does get punished..., that won't be good for me >_>

I don't really have much of an opinion on this though. While it was the parent's fault for doing such harmful things, I also think it was the girl's fault for being too weak-minded.

Speaking of which, online harassment is very infamous in Japan too =(. Of course, it's usually the students harassing students, not parents disguising as students harassing students.

[eleanor]

[quote name='Konata']
I don't really have much of an opinion on this though. While it was the parent's fault for doing such harmful things, I also think it was the girl's fault for being too weak-minded.
[/QUOTE]

[font="trebuchet ms"] The girl was already diagnosed with depression, so you can only take the weak-minded thing so far. And, she was 13, which not a very stable age, emotion-wise. 13+depression+lame myspace parent with apparently too much free time=not good. [/font]

[Konata]

If she can't handle the serious business that is the Internet, then she shouldn't go on it =(

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][quote name='Konata']If she can't handle the serious business that is the Internet, then she shouldn't go on it =([/QUOTE]You make me sad with that statement really. People shouldn't have to avoid things because of hateful and spiteful people around. That's as bad as saying one should never get in a car because there just might be a drunk driver around or some other potential danger/threat. Life is full of unexpected things and to shelter someone from it is silly. Besides, if that's true then all teenagers should be stripped of Internet rights since none of them are adults and can truly handle serious situations.

She was a minor, regardless of the situation, it was 100% the adult's fault in this case. That parent knew what she was doing wrong, she knew the girl had issues with depression and ADD. And yet she still did it anyway. It's just sick how she's to cowardly to apologize for the pain she's caused the other family.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Ikillion]

[quote name='Konata']If she can't handle the serious business that is the Internet, then she shouldn't go on it =([/QUOTE]

[COLOR=#001824][FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="1"]Quoted For Truth.[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

[AzureWolf]

I think that line of reasoning creates too many catch-22s. If someone's not ready to drive, how will they learn other than getting in a car and driving? If someone is not ready to swim, how else can they learn but go in a pool and start?

No work without experience, no experience without work, right? She can't be blamed for "not being ready," just as much a person who is pushed into a pool by someone and drowns can't be blamed for "not being ready."

[Retribution]

[font=Arial]It doesn't make sense for the 'bully' to be charged as a murderer or anything of the sort. Emotional manipulation, while extremely hurtful and terrible, cannot and should not be construed as any form of homicide. As previously mentioned, it opens the door for extremely dangerous legal precedent.

The argument "she wasn't ready, so she shouldn't have gone on the internet" isn't necessarily a fallacy. If her parents knew she was severely depressed and emotionally unstable, it is not unreasonable to think they should have taken steps (within reason) to protect their daughter from further emotional hardship and damage.

Making a 10 year old learn to drive is different from making a 15 year old learn to drive. While both are "not ready" to drive in the fullest capacity, one is closer to that full capacity than the other for a slew of reasons... in short, it is a matter of degrees. In this sense, Konata's statement is not entirely ridiculous or fallacious.

All this aside, it's sick there's been no statement of apology... but should we honestly expect one? I mean, this is the same woman who antagonized the girl... are we to even vaguely assume she would have the remorse to apologize?[/font]

[Konata]

[quote name='SunfallE'][COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]You make me sad with that statement really. People shouldn't have to avoid things because of hateful and spiteful people around. That's as bad as saying one should never get in a car because there just might be a drunk driver around or some other potential danger/threat. Life is full of unexpected things and to shelter someone from it is silly. Besides, if that's true then all teenagers should be stripped of Internet rights since none of them are adults and can truly handle serious situations.

She was a minor, regardless of the situation, it was 100% the adult's fault in this case. That parent knew what she was doing wrong, she knew the girl had issues with depression and ADD. And yet she still did it anyway. It's just sick how she's to cowardly to apologize for the pain she's caused the other family.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Whoa, there is a major difference between an unexpected car crash and online harassment. With online harassment, one doesn't automatically die the second someone tells him/her "lololol ------- you, im gonna --:D--- kill you, you ---- ------- !!!1111" (unless it's some[I] fear dot com[/I] and [I]Pulse[/I] stuff lol). And people shouldn't HAVE to avoid things, but they can. Why was the "Block" command implemented into AIM? Since there is a Rule 28 of the Internet! (there are always more disturbing things on the Internet than what you just saw), if you aren't prepared for the worst, then don't go on the Internet. It's like alcohol. It could kill you, and if you're not going to drink responsibly, then maybe you shouldn't drink at all.

Because I'm pretty sure someone will criticize it, the Rules of the Internet are not always true, appropriate, nice, etc (or even true at all (lol no girls on the internet)) but 28 is pretty true and straightforward.

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][quote name='Konata']Whoa, there is a major difference between an unexpected car crash and online harassment. With online harassment, one doesn't automatically die the second someone tells him/her "lololol ------- you, im gonna --:D--- kill you, you ---- ------- !!!1111" (unless it's some[I] fear dot com[/I] and [I]Pulse[/I] stuff lol). And people shouldn't HAVE to avoid things, but they can. Why was the "Block" command implemented into AIM? Since there is a Rule 28 of the Internet!?!?!, if you aren't prepared for the worst, then don't go on the Internet. It's like alcohol. It could kill you, and if you're not going to drink responsibly, then maybe you shouldn't drink at all.[/QUOTE]I'm saying that it's unreasonable to expect kids to avoid the entire Internet just because something bad might happen. ^_~ Also, why are we trying to shift blame to the kid here? The bottom line is that an Adult, knowing she had issues harassed her. Clearly the adult is the one who has the higher level of maturity in a situation like this. It shows a complete and total lack of responsibility on the mother for even doing such a thing.

Also, she had no way of knowing that this online friend would suddenly turn on her, so it's not like a case of harassment by someone unknown, it was someone she thought was her friend. Making it even more disgusting since she was probably trying to figure out what had happened. What would you do if someone you liked suddenly started saying things like the mother did? Most people try to find out and that just exposed her to even more hate messages.

She was still a kid here, regardless of the situation. And to try and blame her for it is pretty sad if you ask me. Also, what are these rules of the Internet and the 28 you are referring to?

Retribution: I didn't say drive, I said get into a car. I was talking about exposure to danger itself. Not the dangers of learning to actually drive. I meant in general. :p Also, the article doesn't say if the girls parents were limiting her exposure to the Internet or not, so for all we know they were. After all, if she was on medication for depression then it's obvious that they were actually doing stuff to help their daughter. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='SunfallE'][COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]Retribution: I didn't say drive, I said get into a car. I was talking about exposure to danger itself. Not the dangers of learning to actually drive. I meant in general. :p Also, the article doesn't say if the girls parents were limiting her exposure to the Internet or not, so for all we know they were. After all, if she was on medication for depression then it's obvious that they were actually doing stuff to help their daughter. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]Because there are still degrees of emotional stability, my point still stands as valid.

Certainly her parents aren't superheroes and they probably did the best they can. But speaking generally, if she felt emotionally hurt by this "boy" to the point where she was considering suicide, it seems like she should have stopped communication with him. Delete him as a friend, ignore him, stop using myspace altogether. The fact that she continued to have contact with someone like that (someone who intends [i]no good[/i] for you) does lend credence to the idea that maybe she shouldn't have been on myspace.[/font]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]Because there are still degrees of emotional stability, my point still stands as valid.

Certainly her parents aren't superheroes and they probably did the best they can. But speaking generally, if she felt emotionally hurt by this "boy" to the point where she was considering suicide, it seems like she should have stopped communication with him. Delete him as a friend, ignore him, stop using myspace altogether. The fact that she continued to have contact with someone like that (someone who intends [i]no good[/i] for you) does lend credence to the idea that maybe she shouldn't have been on myspace.[/font][/QUOTE]I disagree, all it shows is that she was a minor and incapable of understanding that it was better to back away. That's why they are considered underage to begin with, they lack the maturity to reach that decision. Some will and some won't. In the end, I still think the mother who initiated the harassment is at fault here. Even more so since she knew the girl, knew her history and therefore probably understood how to push her better than someone the girl had never met. After all the girl at one point was friends with the mother's own daughter after all.

Also, as it says in the article: [I]Others in the online community joined in on the verbal abuse.[/I] So simply avoiding the boy would not have ended the harassment. She got others to harass the girl as well, so she would have had to leave myspace altogether or create a new account to get away from the harassment. It was more than just a case of one person bothering her. She got slammed all at once by not only the mother posing as a boy but others as well.

Anyway, regardless, it's done and over with. The girl is dead and though it's unlikely that the mother will ever apologize for the harassment... I still think the whole thing is sad. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Allamorph]

[FONT=Arial]You guys are still missing the issue here.

[quote name='Konata']If she can't handle the serious business that is the Internet, then she shouldn't go on it =([/quote]
Maybe, but would she still have self-destructed had the offending parent not been involved?

Bottom line: entering the internet at an emotionally unstable ? and yes, [I]unready[/I] ? age is not wrong, and is not the aspect this conversation should be focusing on. Saying that it's partially her fault for having an internet life is tantamount to saying she should not have had contact with other humans at all; was she emotionally ready for serious, real-life humans, but not the internet? If she'd been harassed by a letter correspondence, or by a live person paid off by a third party, is she still to blame for entering the situation?

That argument cannot be made intelligently. If she'd been on the internet and no one had harassed her, she might still be alive. Certainly she may have killed herself anyway at a later date, and maybe all the harassment did was hasten the event, but we can't say anything for certain, and to blame her is asinine. We do not know what [I]might[/I] have happened, and we cannot know what [I]would have[/I] happened. All we know is what [I]did[/I] happen, and what resulted.

Don't insult yourselves by shifting blame and focus away from the the adults. If they had not acted as they did (or she; I'm not quite clear on that), the girl might still be alive. There is strong evidence that she was spurred to her end, and that was and is no fault of her own.[/FONT]

[James]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I think the mother involved certainly bears some responsibility; threatening anyone (especially verbally abusing a child) does bring with it certain potential penalties as far as I know.

Did she cause this girl's death? I don't know. And I don't really think anyone can say that she did. If someone is going to commit suicide based on the verbal abuse coming from another person, then their problems obviously run deeper than just a reaction to bullying.

I think that this incident probably underlines the need of parents to be more involved with what their kids do online. You can't always prevent these things, of course - sometimes there's really very little you can do.

But yeah, I think the bully involved should be facing some sort of penalty, although I don't think they should be charged with manslaughter or anything like that. There doesn't really seem to be cause for that based on what I can see.[/font]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='vegeta rocker']So my question is, do you think what the mother did was a crime? [/QUOTE]Yes. I wouldn't go so far as to say murder, but it definitely falls under harassment. Something that is definitely a crime:

[list][*]Criminal harassment is defined as "engag(ing) in intentional conduct which the actor [harasser] knows or has reason to know would cause the victim, under the circumstances, to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated; and causes this reaction on the part of the victim.[/list][quote name='vegeta rocker']Do you think she should be held responsible for the girls death, and has cyberbullying ever happened to you?[/QUOTE]Since proving that she was responsible for her death would be difficult and problematic at best, I do not think she should be held accountable. At least not for the suicide part. Definitely for the harassment though.

As for cyber bullying. lol Yes, I have in the past been totally harassed. Unlike this poor girl I was in my early twenties and my father is a lawyer so he took care of it by threatening legal action against those involved and that put an end to it. [quote name='vegeta rocker']I personally think that she shares some of the responsibility and while she can't be directly linked to it, she knew of the girls struggle with depression and crossed the line.

Should she go to jail? I don't think so, but I think she should have some punishment.
Maybe paying for the girls funeral, a public apology something that shows she is sorry for the events she set into motion.[/QUOTE]There's no getting around it, she definitely should be fined or required to put in so many hours of community service as well as being required to apologize to the family in question in public. For an adult to behave so irresponsibly is just unacceptable, especially when she knew what the girl's circumstances were. [/COLOR]

[Konata]

[quote name='SunfallE'][COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]I'm saying that it's unreasonable to expect kids to avoid the entire Internet just because something bad might happen. ^_~ Also, why are we trying to shift blame to the kid here? The bottom line is that an Adult, knowing she had issues harassed her. Clearly the adult is the one who has the higher level of maturity in a situation like this. It shows a complete and total lack of responsibility on the mother for even doing such a thing.[/quote]

I'm not saying it's not the adult's fault (refer to my first post), but I do think it was partially the girl's fault.

[quote]Also, she had no way of knowing that this online friend would suddenly turn on her, so it's not like a case of harassment by someone unknown, it was someone she thought was her friend. Making it even more disgusting since she was probably trying to figure out what had happened. What would you do if someone you liked suddenly started saying things like the mother did? Most people try to find out and that just exposed her to even more hate messages[/quote]
Well then she shouldn't have tried to find out. There is a risk to "diving into the unknown". And I can't answer that question because I don't suffer from depression (or at least I haven't been diagnosed with it ;D), I'm not 13, and I am totally against love or likeness. But if I was in that situation, I'd probably just 1. ignore the harassment and go along with my life because there are more things to worry about than mindless insults, or 2. have revenge.

[quote]She was still a kid here, regardless of the situation. And to try and blame her for it is pretty sad if you ask me. Also, what are these rules of the Internet and the 28 you are referring to?[/quote]

[quote]Since there is a Rule 28 of the Internet! (there are always more disturbing things on the Internet than what you just saw)[/quote]
[quote]Because I'm pretty sure someone will criticize it, the Rules of the Internet are not always true, appropriate, nice, etc (or even true at all (lol no girls on the internet)) but 28 is pretty true and straightforward.[/quote]

I probably edited that on while you were making your post. Basically a set of nonsensical rules that make sense =P

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Wow, that's just pathetic that an adult, one who is a parent herself and would most likely freak if someone was doing that to her own daughter, and yet she did that to someone she actually knew! Sick! She definitely needs some form of punishment for such cruelty. [quote name='Konata']Well then she shouldn't have tried to find out. There is a risk to "diving into the unknown". And I can't answer that question because I don't suffer from depression (or at least I haven't been diagnosed with it ;D), I'm not 13, and I am totally against love or likeness. But if I was in that situation, I'd probably just 1. ignore the harassment and go along with my life because there are more things to worry about than mindless insults, or 2. have revenge. [/QUOTE]Uh, you don't suffer from depression and you're not thirteen. That really puts you in the position of not being able to relate to what this girl was going through at all. What you would have done is irrelevant since everyone reacts differently depending on the situation. What upsets one person, another will shrug off and continue as if nothing happened.

Trying to relate, especially when your situation is totally different is kind of pointless since it's all to easy to fall back on the fallacy of "if it were me" which is completely inaccurate and not a good guide to go by. Try reading up on depression to see how it affects someone or even try to imagine how you or others you know who are only thirteen react to things. In other words try to see things from perhaps the girls point of view instead of your own before you declare someone "shouldn't" have done something.

It's ridiculously easy to use hindsight and think someone was to blame when you yourself did not experience any of the emotional pain that this girl felt that drove her to kill herself. Allamorph makes a very good point about shifting focus away from the adult who clearly was the one who "should" have known better.

Lets not be so quick to point fingers at the minor who like all minor's depends upon the adults around them to make mature responsible decisions. She was betrayed by the trust of someone who was more than old enough to realize that what she was doing was wrong.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]Hmmm... Aaryanna already said pretty much what I would have so I'll simply leave it at that.[quote name='Konata']I probably edited that on while you were making your post. Basically a set of nonsensical rules that make sense =P[/QUOTE]Probably and once I realized that I googled it. Big mistake, even if some of those rules make sense, some of those links led to stuff that I'd rather not see at all. Blech. I did laugh at the one stating that there were no girls on the Internet though. XP[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

Someone like that has no business being a parent. I did some looking into this and it's just sad beyond belief that any adult would do such a thing, and for that adult to be a mother no less is just sickening. Here's a snippet from one of the articles I found:

[INDENT]The following day, Mrs Meier was taking another daughter to the orthodontist, and asked Megan to log off MySpace, where users must be at least 14. Megan called her mother, saying that messages were being posted about her saying: "Megan Meier is a slut. Megan Meier is fat."

After a row, Megan ran upstairs. Her father tried to reassure her that everything would be fine. Twenty minutes later, she was found dead. Mr Meier said he found a message the next day from "Josh", telling her she was a bad person and the world would be better without her.[/INDENT]
I don't even know where to begin, to express the disgust I feel towards another parent who would callously tell a teenage kid that the "The world would be a better place without you." Go and google it and read through different articles. The one linked to at the beginning of this thread doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of how terrible this really is.