Legalization of Marijuana

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]I'll be frank for a moment. I find those who want to make decisions for others truly annoying. Well, annoying doesn't grasp the enormity of the feeling. It's people like that in this nation who want abortion illegal, who want gay marriage illegal, who want to keep watch of you and tap your phone [i]all for your safety[/i]. Sure, this is a slippery slope (and yes, I'm aware it's a logical fallacy) but it's people like that who keep legislating other people's lives. I hate it.

The way I see it, if you want to keep marijuana illegal, you should also support prohibition and making cigarettes illegal. Both are detrimental to ones health. Both "touch other people's lives" in a negative way. Both are responsible for plenty of ill intent. Both serve no real purpose aside from having fun in a way that is dangerous for your health.[/rant][/font][/QUOTE]Making other's decisions for them is an unavoidable part of government. I understand how you would find this frustrating, but you yourself stated that it's a logical fallacy since on some level making the decision for others is necessary. Especially when it's behavior that is detrimental. And to be clear, if I thought it would help, I could and would support making cigarettes illegal. I've lost relatives to cancer from that and though you could argue it was their choice, it is a harmful substance.

I see Marijuana in pretty much the same light. It's detrimental to one's health and in the end doesn't have much purpose other than for people to get high. It's already illegal and I see no reason to change that. If you are caught doing something illegal, at that point, you'll get no sympathy from me.

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Premonition'][COLOR="77656"]I know this Ace. Some places you aren't able to use it for reports because of false information and whatnot. Adn the Librarian's son at school put himself as a pro-cricket player living in Norfolk NY. But that's not deleted, so they must not regulate it well[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

You try regulating a site where millions of users submit random stuff about thousands of different things and see how easy it is to let it fall in the crapper with one false move.:smirk:

[Retribution]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]For me it would depend on the amount in possession. Obviously a person with a few grams of the stuff for their own personal use should not be given the same kind of sentense as the dealer with a couple of kilos in his car. To my knowledge, at least here in Ireland, prison time is more so given to dealers than addicts, it's usually only multiple instances of possession gets you time for the latter.

I'm not sure why you disagree with giving possession a prison sentence, but in my own case I believe that for the addict, doing so with not help them overcome their addiction, that and prisons are notoriously easy for getting drugs in, which sort of defeats the purpose.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]I see weed and cigarettes to be about equivalent in terms of erm... "badness" (?) if this makes any sense. So in this light, it would strike me as ridiculous to jail someone carrying a mass amount of cigarettes, even if they did have intent to sell them.

Additionally, the addictive properties are heavily contested with respect to marijuana. If anything, I would argue they are less addictive than cigarettes, but I don't feel like hunting for verification.

But even if they did become addicted to marijuana, why does the government have to be responsible for breaking their habit if it is themselves they harm? The "damage" of weed to a person or a community is negligible. Of course, I agree with the government taking action for something like heroine or cocaine, which have significant documentation on its addictive properties and destruction of inner cities. However I simply don't see marijuana to be anywhere near that level.

[QUOTE][SIZE="1"]Your overriding concern Alex has been that you disagree with other people deciding on what you can and cannot do after you‘ve become an adult, you call that self-determination, I personally think it sounds childish because it means you don’t like being told what you’re allowed do. Maybe I’m wrong, as I said, it’s just how I read it.

That said, particularly within this context I see your desire to legalise a harmful, addictive substance out of this idea of self-determination, even if it causes them harm to be immature because it would be “impugning on their private lives” and that‘s not a good enough reason to let someone harm themselves in my mind.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
I'm not arguing against governmental legislation for the safety of the public. I'm arguing against legislation that interferes with a personal decision that affects only the person choosing the action. I am not complaining about "being told what to do," because that would mean I'm an anarchist... I'm not. I'm "complaining" about being told what to do when my personal decision affects me and only me.

I don't want the government to tell me I can't play football "for my own good". Sure, the government can say "You'll get seriously injured if you play football because you are weak" but at the end of the day, the choice to try out for a team rests with me. Who is the government to say I'm too weak, if only my personal safety is at risk here?

If you are alright with the government deciding what you can and cannot do when it concerns only you, I am deeply disturbed. I say this with total seriousness.

[QUOTE][size=1]If you go back and reread the thread, note how nearly everyone who actually is a legal adult has disagreed with the legalisation of marijuana. It seems the “adults” who you’re trying to do this for disagree with you.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
This is a logical fallacy.

[QUOTE][SIZE="1"]As for the banning things that serve no purpose, reread the post, I said dangerous things that serve no purpose, there is a difference.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
Well, aside from the point that "serving no purpose" is entirely relative, dangerous things that serve no purpose should absolutely be legal if the danger only concerns the person choosing to participate. What about bungie jumping? Skydiving? These also serve only to give people enjoyment, while being undeniably dangerous. Should they also be illegal?[/font]

[Goodbye, Face]

[quote name='Premonition'][COLOR="77656"]I know this Ace. Some places you aren't able to use it for reports because of false information and whatnot. Adn the Librarian's son at school put himself as a pro-cricket player living in Norfolk NY. But that's not deleted, so they must not regulate it well[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[font=arial][size=1]Let's derail the thread and talk about Wikipedia, lol. That article probably isn't going to get deleted for a very long time because no one will ever see it. The librarian's son is insignificant to the goings-on of the planet and no one is going to search for him. Examples like that don't prove anything.

And also, the little numbers you see after facts in real articles in Wikipedia? Those are citations that take you to the direct source of the information. If you don't trust what the wiki says, you can always backcheck it to the real source. Hell, this is how I use it for papers.

Back on topic, it's clear that Retri and I have a rather libertarian view of the illegality of cannabis. To be against the legalization of it, you have to also be for prohibition and de-legalization of tobacco. This has been mentioned already. I don't know how we can say no to weed and not also say no to those other things. I think it's silly to single it out and not test it just because the government or whatever simply doesn't want us to. I am against weed myself, but I don't see why the government should have a say about things that grow out of the ground naturally and make people feel good.[/font][/size]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Retribution][font=Arial][QUOTE=Gavin][SIZE=1]If you go back and reread the thread, note how nearly everyone who actually is a legal adult has disagreed with the legalisation of marijuana. It seems the ?adults? who you?re trying to do this for disagree with you.[/SIZE][/QUOTE']This is a logical fallacy.[/font][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Eh, no. This is an observation, denoted by the key word [I]"seems"[/I].

I'm not going to argue you on aught else, since (as I said before) neither of the sides has a decent argument. I just ask that the "logical fallacy" card not be thrown wantonly and carelessly around. I think you rely on it by itself far too much, and I worry that might come back to bite you at some point.

[quote name='Premonition']Gavin, anybody can put somehting into wikipedia, so that soarce isn't legitimite.[/quote]
[I]*sigh*[/I]
[quote name='DeathKnight][color=crimson]I know, that [url=http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/dcf/duc.htm]United States Department of Justice[/url'] source that says the exact same thing as the Wikipedia article could have come from anywhere, Gavin.[/color][/quote]
Yeah, I know. Shame you can't trust consistency.[/FONT]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]Eh, no. This is an observation, denoted by the key word [I]"seems"[/I].

I'm not going to argue you on aught else, since (as I said before) neither of the sides has a decent argument. I just ask that the "logical fallacy" card not be thrown wantonly and carelessly around. I think you rely on it by itself far too much, and I worry that might come back to bite you at some point.[/FONT][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]While he is correct in his observation (thus it is a fact), it is totally inconsequential to the rest of the debate.

His assertion, while not identical, is extremely close to both [i]argumentum ad populum[/i] (appeal to majority ... most people say A, thus A is right) and the appeal to authority (those in authority say A, thus A is right).[/font]

[Raiha]

[quote name='Aaryanna_Mom']Making other's decisions for them is an unavoidable part of government. I understand how you would find this frustrating, but you yourself stated that it's a logical fallacy since on some level making the decision for others is necessary. Especially when it's behavior that is detrimental. And to be clear, if I thought it would help, I could and would support making cigarettes illegal. I've lost relatives to cancer from that and though you could argue it was their choice, it is a harmful substance. [/QUOTE]
[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Mum's right. Government likes to make choices for the people it views too stupid to do anything but vote for them.

There's a word for this, I think it's...um... bureaucracy?

Seriously folks, I have to tell you. I live in southern California in one of the drug capitals of the state and while marijuana is illegal and I really think it should stay that way... ...I find that legalizing it makes no real sense. I could quite literally jump the wall surrounding my apartment complex, take about ten steps into the neighborhood next to mine, and go to any street corner and get a bag of the stuff if I REALLY wanted to. However, like Charles, I'm capable of letting loose without the aid of any drug.

Wait, I forgot. Is sex a drug? Because sometimes it's harmful to others and sometimes it alters the state of one's mind. And it sure is addicting as hell. But seriously, while I think making substances illegal does nothing much, and it pretty much tells a nation's citizens:

"We think you are far too stupid to do anything without our input. Bugger off... ...wait, go vote for us first."

I can't honestly say that legalizing anything would fix current problems. Gun toting, Constitutional, Libertarian, free choice, personal responsibility nut that I am, I still think that marijuana is naughty. That and it smells like the hind end of a yeast infected cow.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Retribution][font=Arial']While he is correct in his observation (thus it is a fact), it is totally inconsequential to the rest of the debate.[/font][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]I don't believe so.

Consider: alcohol, as it is used for recreation, is legal, but only after one becomes a legal adult; i.e., once the Powers That Be have deemed that one is capable of making one's own decisions and otherwise look after oneself. The PTB have arbitrarily set a standard for "adulthood" as it pertains to alcohol, and this standard is one's twenty-first year of age, depending on location. Once one has finished one's twenty-first year (remember that one's first year of life occurs [I]before[/I] one reaches the age of one), the PTB acknowledges one as an adult and sanctions one to purchase alcohol.

For those who have not yet surpassed their twenty-first year, alcohol is still illegal. The PTB – in this case, the State – will not acknowledge these persons as adults, and therefore refuses them the sanctioned privilege of purchasing alcohol, regardless of whether or not these persons are actually capable of making an adult decision. (The same principle extends the other direction, incidentally; one may be classified as a legal adult without actually having reached the associated level of maturity.)

Likewise, the legal purchase of tobacco is regulated to those who have surpassed their eighteenth year, and those who have not are not sanctioned to do so.

Logically, it would seem that, should marijuana be legalized, it would only be sanctioned for purchase for those who have passed a certain age barrier, as has been done with these other two. Also logically, the legal barrier age would in all likelihood be similar to those of these other two semi-legal substances.

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Gavin[/COLOR] took that concept apart from the intermediate logical processes and made an additional observation: the majority of those who would be classified as "legal adults" do not agree with the recreational use of marijuana and doubtless would not purchase it. Taken another step further: if those who would [I]be able to[/I] buy said theoretically legal substance would in fact [I]not[/I] buy it, what was the point of making said substance legal?

Since, then, there does not seem to be a single, undeniable, [I]good[/I], reason for marijuana to be made legal, it will not.

Yes, it will be used regardless. But it is nowhere near as big a market as either alcohol or tobacco, and if marijuana remains illegal I doubt that this country will sink into such a state of mob-ridden squalor as it did during Prohibition.

...which, for the record, was a [I]big[/I] mistake, but one I am glad the government made. Gotta stick your finger in the fire before you figure out that you were stupid. :p

[QUOTE][font=arial]His assertion, while not identical, is extremely close to both [I]argumentum ad populum[/I] (appeal to majority ... most people say A, thus A is right) and the appeal to authority (those in authority say A, thus A is right).[/font][/QUOTE]
This is true, but I see a different intent in his words than those that would have been inspired by either method of appeal, and so I see no fallacy of logic.

Ah, well. No harm done.[/FONT]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial][COLOR="DarkRed"]Gavin[/COLOR] took that concept apart from the intermediate logical processes and made an additional observation: the majority of those who would be classified as "legal adults" do not agree with the recreational use of marijuana and doubtless would not purchase it. Taken another step further: if those who would [I]be able to[/I] buy said theoretically legal substance would in fact [I]not[/I] buy it, what was the point of making said substance legal?[/FONT][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]Gavin's statement pertained to those who posted within the thread. Whether or not the representation of support in this thread is indicative of its real-world support is another matter entirely.

And in this respect, it is an unfair thing to say within this context. Simply because a [b]few[/b] people on [b]one[/b] online forum are against legalization does not lend [i]any[/i] credence or weight to maintaining marijuana's illegal status. A national referendum would be a more accurate measure of the adult will, and I would be willing to submit to the judgment of the population.

As for the question of economics, I doubt marijuana would ever become a heavily commercialized good (like cigarettes are now) because of how easy it is to grow locally. And for this reason, I doubt it will ever be legalized.[/font]

[Allamorph]

[FONT=Arial]For the thread itself, I immediately agree that it is a poor sample from which to form any legitimate statistical analysis, but I have seen worse ones published as irrefutable proof; the global warming statistics come to mind ... though it is not my intention to stir any debate on that as of now. Perhaps we should lobby for such a study. I at least am curious as to the results.

And no, it isn't unfair. :) Presumptuous, perhaps, but not unfair.
[quote name='li'l ole Me][FONT=Arial']{I}f those who would be able to buy said theoretically legal substance would in fact not buy it, what was the point of making said substance legal?[/FONT][/quote]
See, I deliberately said "if". I could have said "since" and attempted to use it as proof, but I was only presenting a scenario based on another's logic. Take it the other way: if those who would be able to legally buy marijuana would do so, then sure. Make it legal.

I personally doubt that will happen, though. :animeswea

(I had to use funny brackets there because the coding thought I was starting an italics tag. :rolleyes:)

[quote name='Retribution][FONT="Arial"']As for the question of economics, I doubt marijuana would ever become a heavily commercialized good (like cigarettes are now) because of how easy it is to grow locally.[/FONT][/quote]
Well, yeah. Considering we have sites like [URL="http://www.mellowgold.com/grow/begin/"][U]this one[/U][/URL], why bother? :p

[B]Edit:[/B] I do not endorse the linked site. For the record.[/FONT]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='Neuvoxraiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"] That and it smells like the hind end of a yeast infected cow.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]Good enough reason for me to not be interested in supporting making it legal. That and like Rach, Charles and you have just said, one doesn't need drugs to have a good time. [/COLOR]

[Lethargy]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]Jeeze Louise! I'm gone for a few weeks and [B]all Hell[/B] breaks loose![/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]

Let me start off by saying that even though I use marijuana occasionally, I really have no opinion on whether or not it should be legalized, as I will still smoke it [U]regardless[/U].[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[quote name='Andrew']Stoners get stoned, regardless of the law. Who really cares?[/quote]


[SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen] Okay, then. To [B]Gavin[/B]:[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[quote name='Gavin']It's a dangerous damn drug[/quote]

[quote]it's just a dangerous drug that needs to stay banned for people's own safety.[/quote][quote]a harmful, addictive substance[/quote][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]You seem to be under the impression that marijuana is [B]cocaine's leafy brother[/B]. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in all my research, I have yet to find a documented case of [B]physical[/B] marijuana addiction, or even [B]serious psychological[/B] addiction. Granted, one can build a tolerance for it (just like with [U]anything[/U] else), and sudden cessation after extensive (and I mean [I]extensive[/I]) regular use may cause some negative side effects (just like with [U]anything[/U] else), but honestly, marijuana, in certain aspects, is far less detrimental to one's health than alcohol or cigarettes (again, that doesn't mean it should be legal).[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[quote=]Most of what I've read has come from anti-drugs campaigns, so I'll admit there's a slant on it, the same way there would be if it came from a pro-drugs one.[/quote]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen] True. It is practically impossible to find [B]non-biased[/B] information on the subject. It is important to take everything you read and hear with a grain of salt.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[quote]Heh still Holland you crazy Dutch bastard, but that's why we love you [/quote][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]I can't help but hear this read in a [B]thick Irish accent[/B] (although I'm not sure how heavy your accent is).[/COLOR][/SIZE]


[SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen][B]Odin M Yggdrasi[/B]:[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[quote name='Odin M Yggdrasi']The reason why I am not against alcohol is because while it does have it's effects, people who enjoy it responsibly don't hurt anyone, and actually are believed to see some beneficial effects.[/quote]

[quote]Plus like I mentioned in my last post- Alcohol enjoyed responsibly does not hurt people other than possibly the person drinking it. Irresponsible consumption of alcohol, such as drinking and driving or drinking when you know that you are a violent drunk does hurt others though, and I think it should be regulated.[/quote][quote]I would just as soon be rid of both marijuana and tobacco, though alcohol can stay a while longer since drinking resposibly doesn't hurt anyone while smoking tends to cause others to be affected through secondhand smoke.[/quote][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]I see that every time you mention alcohol use, you use the word "[B]responsibly[/B]." Well, can't you also smoke[I] responsibly[/I]? If you smoke marijuana [I]responsibly[/I], you do not do it around those who do not wish to be a part of it. You also don't go out driving (although stoned folk are much "better" drivers than drunk folk -- again,[B] DO NOT DRIVE UNDER THE INFLUENCE![/B]) high.

You also mentioned that there are supposed "benefits" from drinking. Isn't that also true with marijuana use?[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[quote]Also, there are known formula after known formula for effective pain relievers. I [B]high[/B]ly doubt that marijuana would actually be more effective then them[/quote][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]Just thought I'd point out that pun.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[quote]I stand by what I said before, both Marijuana and Tobacco should be illegal globally, and should remain illegal.[/quote][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen][B]Globally[/B]? That's an awfully bold statement.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[quote]People have tried it, and made public what it is like. Also, there are far more negative reports from both people who have used it and researchers who have studied it than positive reports from users and researchers- which makes it safe to assume (without trying it) that it is bad and is not even worth trying.[/quote][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]Where are these reports you speak of?

You know what they say about assumptions... But [B]there is no amount of reading, discussion, and research in the world that could possibly give you insight as to what it is like to be high[/B]. That kind of knowledge only comes from personal experience (AGAIN, kids: do [B]NOT[/B] try this at home). I spent the first eighteen years of my life having [U]never[/U] touched any type of substance. Up until the first time I got high, I was confident that I knew what the experience was going to be like. I had read all about it, talked to all my friends who had done it. I knew what was going to happen to me.

[B] Wrong[/B].

Looking back at my pre-pot self, it is [U]painfully[/U] obvious that I was just plain [B]ignorant[/B]. I mean, I had a vague idea of what it would be like, but it wasn't until I experienced it that I knew.

That being said:
[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[quote name='James]Your view that people shouldn't "knock it 'till they try it" has some validity, but having said that, people can still form opinions on a drug based on what they've read...trying it isn't necessarily going to change the [B]objective[/B'] facts[/quote]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen] Damn you, [B]James[/B], with your all-knowing glory.

Objective being the key word there, I think that if someone hasn't tried marijuana, they really shouldn't be commenting on the[B] subjective[/B] aspects of it (though I don't think much of that has been going on).


To [B]Sandy[/B]:[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[quote name='Sandy']The13thMan apparently has a successful career as a drug dealer. "Just try it once, you'll like it. It's not as dangerous as they claim..." That's what they all say. ;P[/quote]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen] No... "That's what they all say" is what they all say. ;P[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[quote]Even if the gate theory wouldn't work in reality, there's always a good chance that the guy who sells you the stuff will start urging you to try some harder drugs. And that's really not the path anyone wants to walk...[/quote][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]First, I have yet to purchase or even possess marijuana. All the weed that I smoke, I do so with my friends. Where do they get it from? Their other friends. Where do their other friends get it from? Their other friends.

Of course, someone has to grow and sell it (and my own friends do, in fact, buy and sell it), but the same people who are dealing weed more than likely are [U]not[/U] dealing hard drugs such as [B]cocaine[/B], [B]heroin[/B], and [B]meth[/B]. You really don't see that at all in the drug communities. People tend to have a very limited and specific "inventory." Therefore, in order to come into contact with a hard drug, you would have to seek out someone who sells hard drugs. There aren't really drug "[B]Wal-Marts[/B]" where you go to get all your drug needs (I'm sure they exist, but not where the average Joe-Schmoe Stoner would come into contact with them) in one stop.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[quote name='Neuvoxraiha']That and it smells like the hind end of a yeast infected cow.[/quote]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen][B] Tire factories[/B] smell awful as well, and are probably equally, if not [U]more[/U] harmful. Should they be illegal as well? I don't think olfactory annoyance should be a reason for something to be illegal (I realize that you were just expressing why you are personally against it, and not stating a legal issue, but my point still stands).


I know I've only mentioned statements made by those [B]against[/B] marijuana legalization. Rest assured, I will be posting again with comments about those who are for it. I am just really tired (it's 4:42 AM) and need to sleep before class. But believe me, I'm going to need to be [B]fully[/B] rested before I tackle what [B]The13thMan[/B], [B]Retribution[/B], and [B]Allamorph[/B] had to say.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Raiha]

[quote name='Lethargy']\
[SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen][B] Tire factories[/B] smell awful as well, and are probably equally, if not [U]more[/U] harmful. Should they be illegal as well? I don't think olfactory annoyance should be a reason for something to be illegal (I realize that you were just expressing why you are personally against it, and not stating a legal issue, but my point still stands).[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Actually I have lived near tire factories as well as dog food processing facilities and while they are not easy on the nose, they are in fact useful. And serve a purpose. For the common good. Or something like that.

Then again, I never said I was personally against anything. I was speaking facetiously. Sarcastically. Wryly. With dry humor and wit. I've hung out with people who smoke pot and done some of it myself. ......while possibly also doing other things that I hear are illegal now. I gave a lap dance to a guy smoking marijuana while at my senior prom oh...4 years ago. But then again, does it really matter? Since you were wrong in your assumptions I suppose that your point doesn't stand, but I'll forgive you just this once.

Whip our your grain of salt, and take it with any post I make in the Lounge. Ever.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Shoot, you didn't have to go and be so mean about it. =( That kinda hurt my feelings.

It bothers me that i'm not allowed to have this opinion here. ::scratches head:: I recommended people try things before they judge them, and i also recommended them to try marijuana specifically. Now, yes, i do realize it's illegal in the US and people shouldn't do illegal things (or that's my official statement, anyways). But c'mon! If i'm late for class, i'll speed. If i'm pissed at a guy for threatening my family i'll beat the pulp out of 'im. Things are illegal for reasons, and if you can do something without messing those "reasons" up then i say go for it (this is an opinion, not a suggestion). But i'm not here to argue that. And you can disagree all you want with it. But be civil! Don't call me stupid for having an opinion. That [B]is [/B]stupid.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]No one said you couldn?t have an opinion, all that was said was it was inappropriate to keep recommending people try it when it?s illegal in so many countries. :p I was calling you stupid for continuing to push that without the other disclaimers that you added this time around. Not for having an opinion. [quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Another thing, how the heck am i supposed to know where somebody lives? I'm pretty sure there are a good amount of international OBers here. And shoot, if somebody's dumb enough to listen to me and do something illegal then it's their own fault if they get caught.

Use your brain, kids.

I actually didn't ever say that you have to try something to be against it. Or at least i don't think i did. ...::shrug:: [B]I can't be held accountable for what i say![/B] Haha. But let me clarify. I think that you shouldn't have a finite opinion on something when you don't have all the facts. There's information gained from experiencing something first hand that no amount of second hand information can ever give you. Marijuana is a good example of this actually. But don't get me wrong, i realize people will have opinions with less than all the facts, and that's fine! I have plenty of opinions that are based on less than the optimal amount of information. And when given the chance i will try to learn more to further refine my opinion. This is why i suggest those that have not tried marijuana to try it. I won't restrict it to marijuana either. But at the same time, i don't condone doing anything illegal. Yes, i can do that. It's called a disclaimer. =D [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]That?s the whole point, you don?t know where someone lives and the use of Marijuana is illegal in quite a few countries so really, common sense would have been to lay off the insistence to give it a try for the experience. You kept coming back and insisting on that and calling us squares instead of seeing that others were simply saying, hey, don?t recommend something that is illegal, you even at one point said you weren?t recommending it illegally. But really if it is illegal? then you can?t suggest it and that means it?s somehow legal. Surely you can see the contradiction there. If it?s illegal, there is no way I can try it legally. XP Not that I want to anyway.[quote name='The13thMan;798901][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic][B]I can't be held accountable for what i say![/B] Haha. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]>_> um yeah, no comment there, that speaks volumes about how you work when it comes to debating. That statement certainly explains a lot. [QUOTE=The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]After reading James's post i feel somewhat bad for suggesting the use of marijuana. I typically forget we've got such a young audience here at OB (until i read some posts). So, kids, don't do illegal things. It's...uh, illegal. There are very serious consequences. But, most important, use your better judgment.

[b]And finally i just want to state again for the young and impressionable. Doing illegal things is illegal. And if you get caught...then you'll probably be in a good amount of trouble. So, be smart. [/b][/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]Next time, just include that disclaimer upfront. It will cut down on the misunderstandings by a long shot. :p[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Another thing, how the heck am i supposed to know where somebody lives? [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink][center]Step 1:
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PROFIT![/center][/color]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]I see weed and cigarettes to be about equivalent in terms of erm... "badness" (?) if this makes any sense. So in this light, it would strike me as ridiculous to jail someone carrying a mass amount of cigarettes, even if they did have intent to sell them.

Additionally, the addictive properties are heavily contested with respect to marijuana. If anything, I would argue they are less addictive than cigarettes, but I don't feel like hunting for verification.[/font][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Funnily enough, I actually agree with you about that first part, how cigarettes and weed are on equal ?badness? levels, though my viewpoint after is the complete antithesis of yours. Admittedly for me there is a personal element with the dangers of tobacco, as cancer is rife in my family, and I had to visit oncology wards a lot more often than a kid should, so my view is definitely biased against substance which cause cancer, which from what I?ve read pot does as well.

As for the addictiveness, well my info on this mainly comes from a classmate who was a major marijuana user who said himself it?s as addictive as cigarettes, now whether he meant physical or psychological addiction I don?t know. It?s all down to opinion of the user in the end I suppose. [/SIZE]

[quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]But even if they did become addicted to marijuana, why does the government have to be responsible for breaking their habit if it is themselves they harm? The "damage" of weed to a person or a community is negligible. Of course, I agree with the government taking action for something like heroine or cocaine, which have significant documentation on its addictive properties and destruction of inner cities. However I simply don't see marijuana to be anywhere near that level.

I'm not arguing against governmental legislation for the safety of the public. I'm arguing against legislation that interferes with a personal decision that affects only the person choosing the action. I am not complaining about "being told what to do," because that would mean I'm an anarchist... I'm not. I'm "complaining" about being told what to do when my personal decision affects me and only me.

I don't want the government to tell me I can't play football "for my own good". Sure, the government can say "You'll get seriously injured if you play football because you are weak" but at the end of the day, the choice to try out for a team rests with me. Who is the government to say I'm too weak, if only my personal safety is at risk here?

If you are alright with the government deciding what you can and cannot do when it concerns only you, I am deeply disturbed. I say this with total seriousness.[/font][/QUOTE]

[size=1]You make fair points Alex, and I suppose I didn?t read deeply enough into what you were trying to say on the self-determination front, sorry if I wronged you there. Personally though, I see it as the government?s duty to do all it can to protect the welfare of it?s citizens, something which we agree on, but apparently disagree to the extent of which a government should go in order to do so. I accept that you believe that as long as it is only the personal safety of the person involved, then there is no need for strict government intervention, but honestly when it?s the personal safety of potentially tens of thousands of people I think it does fall into the government?s authority.

I don?t know if I?d say I?m ?alright? with the government making decisions for me, I simply accept that they can and there really isn?t anything I can do to stop them doing so.[/size]

[quote name='Lethargy'][SIZE=1][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]You seem to be under the impression that marijuana is [B]cocaine's leafy brother[/B]. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in all my research, I have yet to find a documented case of [B]physical[/B] marijuana addiction, or even [B]serious psychological[/B] addiction. Granted, one can build a tolerance for it (just like with [U]anything[/U] else), and sudden cessation after extensive (and I mean [I]extensive[/I]) regular use may cause some negative side effects (just like with [U]anything[/U] else), but honestly, marijuana, in certain aspects, is far less detrimental to one's health than alcohol or cigarettes (again, that doesn't mean it should be legal).[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]I can't help but hear this read in a [B]thick Irish accent[/B] (although I'm not sure how heavy your accent is).[/COLOR][/SIZE][/quote]

[SIZE="1"]No, admittedly despite my desire to ban all drugs, I'm well aware that the likes of heroin and cocaine are considerably more dangerous than marijuana, hence the formers are Class A and the latter is not if I remember correctly. As for the documentation on the addictiveness of these drugs, as I said in response to Alex, my info comes from an ex-user who I know, so I can't say that it applies all across the board.

In regard to my accent, I don't really know, I've played online using a headset with Jokopoko so he'd probably be the one to ask. I've always considered it normal, but there are a few different accents in Ireland which are different.[/SIZE]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Lethargy][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen]I know I've only mentioned statements made by those [B]against[/B] marijuana legalization. Rest assured, I will be posting again with comments about those who are for it. I am just really tired (it's 4:42 AM) and need to sleep before class. But believe me, I'm going to need to be [B]fully[/B] rested before I tackle what [B]The13thMan[/B], [B]Retribution[/B], and [B]Allamorph[/B] had to say.[/COLOR'][/SIZE][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Oh terrors.

:p



(You [I]are[/I] aware that [COLOR="DarkRed"]Retribution[/COLOR] and I are on slightly different sides, right?)[/FONT]

[The13thMan]

[quote name='Aaryanna'][COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"] I was calling you stupid for continuing to push that without the other disclaimers that you added this time around. Not for having an opinion. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]My opinion was that people should try it. And you called me stupid for it. You could apologize, i think it would be appropriate, but really it's your call.

I was man enough to recognize and admit that i failed to realize that some people at OB were young and impressionable and could potentially take my advice without using the ol' noggin'. That's why i added the disclaimer.

Perhaps you should go back and reread your post claiming how stupid and idiotic i was. It was very threatening and offensive. In reality you were the one making the presumption that i was suggesting people go out and try marijuana illegally. I only made the suggestion to try it, i made no implication whatsoever about the means of which one should try it. There's no denying this point. Certainly marijuana is illegal in a lot of places, but can i be held accountable for that?

Really i think the bottom line is regardless of what your opinion was of me and my opinion it was totally uncalled for you to call me both stupid and idiotic the way you did. It was rude and i wouldn't ever do something like that to a fellow OBer. And i especially expect more from an actual moderator.
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[QUOTE=Aaryanna][COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"] That?s the whole point, you don?t know where someone lives and the use of Marijuana is illegal in quite a few countries so really, common sense would have been to lay off the insistence to give it a try for the experience. You kept coming back and insisting on that and calling us squares instead of seeing that others were simply saying, hey, don?t recommend something that is illegal, you even at one point said you weren?t recommending it illegally. But really if it is illegal? then you can?t suggest it and that means it?s somehow legal. Surely you can see the contradiction there. If it?s illegal, there is no way I can try it legally. XP Not that I want to anyway.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]This logic is rubbage. I don't know where someone lives so i should restrict my comment when it has absolutely no bearing on where a person lives? I suppose if i suggest people to play with pandas i should hold my tongue because not everybody lives in Asia? Now, i do hope you see the sarcasm in there because i'm quite certain you did not when i called everybody squares. When i said that i was just joking around, i was teasing. I meant no ill will towards it.

I can understand you getting on my case if i suggested doing something that's illegal everywhere, like murder, but marijuana is far from it. It's legal in plenty of countries, and really, it's only a misdemeanor so long as you're not carrying a ton of the stuff. It's also legal for medicinal use.
[/FONT][/COLOR]

[quote name='Aaryanna][COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]>_> um yeah, no comment there, that speaks volumes about how you work when it comes to debating. That statement certainly explains a lot. [/COLOR'][/FONT][/quote][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]I was actually being extremely sarcastic when i made that comment. I'll try to make it more obvious next time around.

[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]My opinion was that people should try it. And you called me stupid for it. You could apologize, i think it would be appropriate, but really it's your call. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]Perhaps when you admit that you contradict yourself on a regular basis, I'll consider it. Until then, there's nothing to apologize for since your stance changes even more than the weather as to what you are saying or actually said. :animesigh[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Charles]

Why don't you two go smoke a joint and chill out? :animeswea

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][quote name='Charles']Why don't you two go smoke a joint and chill out? :animeswea[/QUOTE]No need... I'm done with this thread. Well other than this post to tell you that Charles. XP [/FONT][/COLOR]

[The13thMan]

[quote name='Aaryanna'][COLOR="goldenrod"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Perhaps when you admit that you contradict yourself on a regular basis, I'll consider it. Until then, there's nothing to apologize for since your stance changes even more than the weather as to what you are saying or actually said. :animesigh[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]Well, even though i'd typically disagree with your opinion of my constant contradictions, i do see why you'd think that. I don't exactly contradict myself, but my opinions do often grow as a result of debating.

I really don't think my contradictory personality should have anything to do with the way you reacted. I still feel it was extremely innapropriate. I mean.... really though. Is it your habit to call people names and ridicule so openly for expressing an opinion? Even one that's pushed and that you feel strongly against? Please don't say that you do, i don't want to lose my respect for you. I don't really care if you apologize so much, to demand one is a dick move.
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[quote name='Gavin']

[size=1]Personally though, I see it as the government?s duty to do all it can to protect the welfare of it?s citizens, something which we agree on, but apparently disagree to the extent of which a government should go in order to do so. I accept that you believe that as long as it is only the personal safety of the person involved, then there is no need for strict government intervention, but honestly when it?s the personal safety of potentially tens of thousands of people I think it does fall into the government?s authority.

I don?t know if I?d say I?m ?alright? with the government making decisions for me, I simply accept that they can and there really isn?t anything I can do to stop them doing so.[/size]
[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]How much control a person should have and a government should have when it comes to safety is a fairly tricky game to play. It's quite complex and to claim you're either for or against the government having control is a false dichotomy.

You're basically arguing that if a lot of people are in harm of a substance from a personal choice that the government should intervene. I, like Retribution, have to disagree with you here. I believe very strongly that people should be able to make the decisions for themselves. It's part of having freedom, the choice to do good or bad. The smart people make the smart choices and the dumb make the dumb ones. And through natural selection and the spreading of good information we can grow as a species. Controlling us does nothing to help us. I can't help but to compare people who deal with too much government control to house cats spoiled by the security of the house. When they face the real world they both suffer. Neither grow for the better.

One could argue that if you're going to make marijuana illegal because of how harmful it is that you'd also ban fatty foods. But, i won't do that now. Not really any need to.

I keep thinking to the book of 1984. There government wasn't formed over night, it was a long and slow process. I can't help but think that maybe we're going down the wrong path. I hope to god we aren't.
[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Starwind]

Personally I don't have a problem with marijuana, since even if it's legalized, it won't change anything much. People who want to do it already do it and people who don't want to don't. We talk about it opening doors but it's really a matter of people and not the drug itself. I, for one, don't smoke, drink or do any kind of drug, legal or otherwise. Not because I can't get to them, but because I simply don't have the desire.

As far as legalizing marijuana goes, it's more the matter of making a statement then it is actually legalizing the drug. Hell, the guy who started this thread even mentioned he was just busted on it. Every time you turn around there's some new stoner movie staring Tommy Chong or Dave Chappel now a days. Why? Because it's as much a part of our modern culture as anythign else.

In light of this I say, go ahead and legalize it. Trust me, things won't change as much as people think. If anything else it'll help clean up the court system so we can more expediently try REAL criminals. You know, like murderers, rapists, and pedophiles. Who gives a crap if some guy had an ounce of pot on him? I'm more concerned about making sure we send some sick baby raper to prison. Aren't you?

[Boo]

[quote name='The13thMan'][COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Century Gothic]I really don't think my contradictory personality should have anything to do with the way you reacted. I still feel it was extremely innapropriate. I mean.... really though. Is it your habit to call people names and ridicule so openly for expressing an opinion? Even one that's pushed and that you feel strongly against?[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE][size=1]She called you stupid. Pushing your opinion is stupid. You pushed your opinion. She called you stupid.

That was as inappropriate as putting your dirty clothing in a washing machine. There are enough members here on OtakuBoards who can be much more inappropriate for you if you want.

And seriously, nobody is going to convince another of anything in this thread. Facts are:
[list][*]Marijuana is legal in the Netherlands and the Netherlands are cool + if marijuana were legal in the Unites States of America they would never be as cool as the Netherlands = The USA won't be cool regardless of what they do with marijuana.
[*]Marijuana stinks.
[*]Your mom doesn't want you to smoke marijuana.[/list]
All the reasons necessary to stop trying. I'd recommend you to move to the Netherlands to smoke your pot here, but I won't.[/size]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]Oh terrors.

:p[/FONT][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]lolz

[QUOTE][FONT=Arial](You [I]are[/I] aware that [COLOR="DarkRed"]Retribution[/COLOR] and I are on slightly different sides, right?)[/FONT][/QUOTE]
Slightly different sides, but equally [b][i]awesome[/i][/b], yo.[/font]