Mainstream vs. Individualism

[Korey]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]This was brought up in the "L" thread, where people tended to think more or less on the opinion that the popular is uncool and being an inidividual is really what's "in" right now. I thought this would be a great topic for discussion.

First lemme describe both aspect as I see them...[B][I][U]this is purely my opinion.[/U][/I][/B]

Mainstream: This is often used to describe a large mass of people who have similar tastes, whether it be in fashion, music....what have you. Some examples would be wearing Hollister clothes and listening to the Red Jumpsuit Apparatus or Good Charlotte of (insert popular band here). These people don't really tend to stray away from the norm, at least in theory anyways.

Indiviualism: People who strive to be "different" from others, by ways of fashion, musical tastes, etc. Goths, metal heads, and many niche groups tend to fall into this stereotype. These people are often persecuted (at least they think so) or looked in a lesser way, because of their choice to veer from the socially common value in place[B][I][U] at that time[/U][/I][/B].

Now here's my thing about individualism and mainstream. First off, let's ditch those maudlin terms. There is no such thing as Mainstream or Indiviualism period. You cannot be totally similar to someone else, because you will differ in some way, no matter how minute (this stems particularly from your life experiences and choices), so the term mainstream should really be called "Popular for the Masses". Individualism is a really old, cliche term too. You aren't gonna be totally different, because somewhere, at sometime...someone came up with the same ideas as you. You tend to hang out with people of similar tastes right? How is that being an individual if you want to be part of a group? This means you go with the mainstream of that particular niche group.

Soooooo...basically, in my own humble opinon. Everyone is mainstream in some way, every one is and individual. It's really a balancing act, there is no one extreme or the other.

What do you think?[/FONT]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]I just do whatever the **** I want, period. [/COLOR]

[eleanor]

[font="trebuchet ms"] To me, individualism isn't striving to be different. It's just being who you are and focusing on who you are as an individual.

If being yourself means you like mainstream music, than fine. I hang out with rich white kids, and I happen to like J. Crew. Does that mean I like J. Crew because my friends like it? No, because I happened to like it when my friends introduced it to me. My friends also like Hollister, and I really hate clothes from Hollister.

It's also crap when people call others posers when they follow clothing trends. Could it be that a lot of people like a trend style when they see it and copy it? I didn't even know stores sold skinny jeans until that trend came in, and I liked it and bought skinny jeans. I'm not automatically a fake poser because I did it.

People who act differently for the sake of being different are just as "fake" as people who act the same for the sake of fitting in.

The term 'mainstream' just annoys me, because who the hell cares? If some wannabe "original" starts calling me out because I like Justin Timberlake, screw him. If you call yourself an original, you're probably not one.[/font]

[Panache]

I generally will give anything a look. Whether it be mainstream or like...individual. but like the goth thing and metal thing is really popular to.

But compared to the people around me I am really individual...but that's because everyone is like really similar in everything.

So basically

[quote name='"Dues Ex Machina"']I just do whatever the **** I want, period. [/quote]

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"][QUOTE]People who act differently for the sake of being different are just as "fake" as people who act the same for the sake of fitting in. [/QUOTE]

Wow, that would have never occured to me. So if I act like every other drone out there, I'm different?

As for me, I dress mainstream, the stereotpical rock outfit that I've been known for. However, individualize myself out because my taste's aren't the same as the mainstream's tastes. For one, some of the bands I like, people just nod for no reason. (Sounds foolish that a lot of people haven't even heard of Coheed and Cammbria, or Tool :/ )

I'm like DB and Panache. I just do whatever the **** I wnat. If you've got a problem iwht me, go **** yourself, cause I don't care what you think of me.

[QUOTE]It's also crap when people call others posers when they follow clothing trends. Could it be that a lot of people like a trend style when they see it and copy it?[/QUOTE]

That depends, when I say poser, I mean that they can't do what they're influenced by. Ih someone dresses a certain way but can't do what it is they're dressed for, I call them a poser. At school this one kid dresses all G-unit style, but he can't rap. this kid I know dresses the same way, but he can rap. The second kid is not a poser.

And if someone has no knowledge of said subject, they are also posers. People that call themselves metal-heads and listen to metalcore are a good example of posers.
[QUOTE]
Indiviualism: People who strive to be "different" from others, by ways of fashion, musical tastes, etc. Goths, metal heads, and many niche groups tend to fall into this stereotype. These people are often persecuted (at least they think so) or looked in a lesser way, because of their choice to veer from the socially common value in place at that time.[/QUOTE]

At our school, me and my friends are called gay because we wear moslty black in our group. We aren't even that different compared to the others. And where in the books did it say wearing black makes someone gay?[/COLOR]

[Korey]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Posers are people who are just fake period. They do stuff that isn't like them at all, no matter how it is. They just wanna be something they're not. But it's not unlike humans to try and be something we're not. It's something we've all be guilty in form or another.

Personally, I LOVE it when people say I'm weird or goofy. It makes me all tingly inside, because they are afraid of me being different. But y'know, I'm me. I wasn't made to be normal. If there is such a thing as normal anyways.[/FONT]

[Aberinkula]

[QUOTE]Posers are people who are just fake period.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="77656"]People like this might as well wear a "retarded" sign. Honestly. faking style, acts, and musical interest is stupid and a waste of time. I'd never go up to someone and say "I love rap" when I hate it with a passion beyond the fiery pits of hell.[/COLOR]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='Premonition'][COLOR="77656"]I'm like DB and Panache. I just do whatever the **** I wnat. If you've got a problem iwht me, go **** yourself, cause I don't care what you think of me.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]If you don't care, then why bother to take the energy to even tell someone what they can do if they did have a problem? lol If you really don't care, then the posturing isn't needed. The [I]I do what I want [/I]covers it just fine you know.

Also, filter or not, lay off the indirect method of telling people who might not like what you do, to get off, it's not needed and it just makes you look silly and immature. [/COLOR]

[Zen]

[color=darkred][size=1]

Individualism and maintreamism are really relative terms when you look at it. You can say I'm mainstream because my favorite musician is Jay-Z, a very mainstream and popular artist. I'm sure you couldn't find a person under the age of 45 who doesn't atleast know the name. Now is it a necessarily bad thing for me to like him? Am I therefore sacraficing my individuality because I enjoy his music? What if I were to say that I dislike his commercal singles, but I love his album work?

Jay-Z, while a financially successful (possibly the wealthiest musician alive), has yet to have a number one single, ever. Out of his multi-platinum selling albums, none of them tipped the billboard charts. Compared to shorter lived or less talented rap artists such as, say, Soulja Boy (who is a very mainstream artist), Jay-Z has gained major long term success while still maintaining his artistic individuality.

His latest album was written in two weeks shortly after he was inspired by the film American Gangster. The album itself is semi-autobiographical. It is an amazing album, and it is universally loved. To say that I am mainstream because I enjoy Jay-Z, because even an idiot can enjoy music that good, would be like saying Kurt Cobain was a mainstream guy because he was a huge Beatles fan. Everyone loves the Beatles whether you are mainstream or an individual.

To me, people who assosciate themselves with groups, such as Goths, Metalheads, Punks, Scene, Emos, etc, are less individual than the people who don't. To allow ones self to be defined by a single movement, by a single trend or group, is in itself a sacrafice on one's true individuality.

Primarily, I am a hip hop fan. I make hip hop music, and I enjoy hip hop more than any other musical group. I dress in a more, than less, hip hop fashion. However, I love classic rock, metalcore, R&B, Gwen Stefani-esque pop, Japanese New Wave, French House and Techno. I can wear a Lynrd Skynrd vintage shirt and still blend it into my hip hop style. Like Kanye West, who is a Fiona Apple fan and who sampled Daft Punk is one of his singles, I can define my own 'general' style while appreciating and being a fan of other musical genres.

People who ONLY listen to Metal or Emo are not individuals. They are more 'mainstream' or atleast, conformists, than people who listen to Akon and Ashlee Simpson.

So while I can say that I feel like I belong best to a Hip Hop group, I don't say that I am only a hip hop kid. I won't allow myself to be defined only by one movement or one musical style or one fashion style. If I did that I'd be a one dimensional person. If someone wants to be an individual, they should love whatever they love, and not be embarrassed to admit it to their friends.

My friends, a primarily metal guy, a primarily indie guy, and a primarily classic rock guy, were all having a round table discussion about how we love freaking Coren Rae Baily, a very non-Hip Hop, metal, indie, classic rock artist, simply because we appreciate her talent as an artist. And we didn't let our "primary individual groups" stop us from appreciating and admitting our appreciation of that artist.

So yeah. Individualism is really being yourself, and not letting any group at all define what you like. You can like the mainstream, indie, whatever, as long as its what you like and you like it without being embarrassed over liking it. Mainstream is just a term used to describe what could be said as being "universally" liked or liked by a very large group.

I enjoy the mainstream, and I enjoy the indie just as much (if not slightly more). But I don't let either one define me as a person. I like to consider myself a true individual.[/color][/size]

[Panache]

I wear hip hop clothing and listen to metal core. Do I get an uber poser cookie?

I think it's fine to do something someone else does because you see it and like it. It's not OK to do something else someone else does just to fit a certain mold.
[QUOTE]
Everyone loves the Beatles whether you are mainstream or an individual.[/QUOTE]

Funny story and a good example of a poser. A girl was wearing a Beatles T shirt on a field trip. I asked her if she enjoyed the Beatles. She said no. I said have you even heard a song from the Beatles. she said yea. I asked her which one. She said back in black...

She was fitting the pseudo "Rocker look" that we have going on at our school.

[Aberinkula]

[QUOTE][B]If you don't care, then why bother to take the energy to even tell someone what they can do if they did have a problem?[/B] lol If you really don't care, then the posturing isn't needed. The I do what I want covers it just fine you know[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="77656"]I don't care what they think, I didn't say I don't care what they do Indiff. :P

[QUOTE]I wear hip hop clothing and listen to metal core. Do I get an uber poser cookie?[/QUOTE]

Oddly enough, a lot of poeple now-a-days dress liek that and listen to rodck. I went to a few concerts last year that had metalcore bands, and a lit of them dressed hip hope clothing.

[QUOTE]People who ONLY listen to Metal or Emo are not individuals. They are more 'mainstream' or atleast, conformists, than people who listen to Akon and Ashlee Simpson. [/QUOTE]

I agree and I'm sort of saying no. It's weird. But I listen to Rock, Metal, and during the night before I got to bed I listen to country.
[/COLOR]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"]Most of the responses are telling me that no one is paying attention to what Korey originally said.[quote name='Korey'][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"] Everyone is mainstream in some way, every one is and individual. It's really a balancing act, there is no one extreme or the other.[/FONT][/QUOTE]Labels are useless here, what group, style... blah, blah, blah and so forth is just pointless. You enjoy what you like, you dress how you like and for the most part, people aren't one or the other, but a mixture as Korey just stated. People who are fake, are regardless of what group they are in or consider themselves to be in. It's not the label/group/clothing/music, etc, it's the person who is fake. lol [/COLOR]

[Aberinkula]

[COLOR="77656"]So than from what I gather, all of our opinions didn't matter and that Korey technically answered everyone's question before they asnwered it. Now I'm confused. This is like the genre battles in a way.

EDIT: This question might not have a definite or indefinite answer.[/COLOR]

[Panache]

[QUOTE]It's not the label/group/clothing/music, etc, it's the person who is fake. lol [/QUOTE]I thought that was kind of a given. Man I hate using fake that way. The most annoying people I know love to say "I hate fake people so much zomg zomg zomg" I don't really observe them that much so if they are "fake" or not I don't know. but usually the person pointing the finger is the one with the problem.

[QUOTE]Labels are useless here, what group, style... blah, blah, blah and so forth is just pointless. You enjoy what you like, you dress how you like and for the most part, people aren't one or the other, but a mixture as Korey just stated. People who are fake, are regardless of what group they are in or consider themselves to be in. It's not the label/group/clothing/music, etc, it's the person who is fake. lol [/QUOTE]
If that's the case what are we talking about here. I am really confused now.

[Zen]

[quote name='Panache']I wear hip hop clothing and listen to metal core. Do I get an uber poser cookie?

I think it's fine to do something someone else does because you see it and like it. It's not OK to do something else someone else does just to fit a certain mold.

Funny story and a good example of a poser. A girl was wearing a Beatles T shirt on a field trip. I asked her if she enjoyed the Beatles. She said no. I said have you even heard a song from the Beatles. she said yea. I asked her which one. She said back in black...

She was fitting the pseudo "Rocker look" that we have going on at our school.[/QUOTE]
[color=darkred][size=1]

While I can't defend the dumb girl who would wear the Beatles shirt, I really don't think poser is a term that should be used to often. While that one chick is, without a doubt, posing (or maybe she was pulling a Johnny Rotten and trying to be ironic), I don't think you're really a poser for dressing in a Hip Hop manner and still listening to metalcore.

I mean, if you were rocking a Jay-Z t-shirt and had never heard his music, then maybe, but beyond that, I don't really see where I could call a person a poser. I wear skate shoes because I like how they look, and I don't skateboard, but no one calls me a poser, not even the skaters that I know.

So, heh. I don't really think it much matters, though in that girls case it does possibly apply.[/color][/size]

[Aberinkula]

[quote name='Panache']I thought that was kind of a given. Man I hate using fake that way. The most annoying people I know love to say "I hate fake people so much zomg zomg zomg" I don't really observe them that much so if they are "fake" or not I don't know. but usually the person pointing the finger is the one with the problem.


If that's the case what are we talking about here. I am really confused now.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="77656"]It's all in the eyes of the beholder I guess. I disagree about that, you agree... vice/versa.[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[font=Arial]The funny thing is individualism is being misused in the majority of posts, and that the mainstream is not necessarily at odds with it.

Individualism is essentially self-reliance and/or social action that favors freedom of action of the individual over collective control. With this considered, individualism [i]simply is not[/i] rebelling against everything the status quo represents. It is not being a nonconformist or listening to indie music or anything of the sort.

What is being called "the mainstream" has little to do with individualism. The mainstream is simply what the majority of the population approves of. This means you can be an individualist yet accept mainstream values because individualism only rejects a forced acceptance of these values. So to answer you Korey, there is no balancing act between the two.

I generally abide by the 'live and let live' philosophy, especially when it comes to personal taste/fashion.[/font]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Premonition'][COLOR="77656"]So than from what I gather, all of our opinions didn't matter and that Korey technically answered everyone's question before they asnwered it. Now I'm confused. This is like the genre battles in a way.

EDIT: This question might not have a definite or indefinite answer.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]It's not that no one's opinions matter, it's that saying something like this:[quote name='The Boss'][color=darkred][size=1]People who ONLY listen to Metal or Emo are not individuals. They are more 'mainstream' or atleast, conformists, than people who listen to Akon and Ashlee Simpson. [/color][/size][/QUOTE]Doesn't equate to someone not being an individual other than in perhaps The Boss's eyes. It's not the label, or the group or what is even considered mainstream that's the issue. People get so lost in worrying over whether or not the group they like is considered mainstream that they often forget that it's just possible that the person likes the group because it appeals to them. Hell you could take that statement to mean I follow the crowd since 99% of the time I only listen to what's considered classical music. And that would be just as inaccurate as the statement I just quoted.

I'm in agreement with Korey and Crystia really. Instead of trying to analyze someone based on whether or not what they like is considered mainstream or individual, which on some level is based on your perception, I'm going to go by whether or not the person themselves is being fake. Since that applies to pretending to like something just to fit in with the crowd. Individuality to me means being true to what you like and not pretending to like or dislike something just to fit in. And that applies to everything hence the bothering to label or even mention types of music/clothing, etc is really meaningless since other than to perhaps use one as an example for a specific case, in general, it's pretty inaccurate.

[B]EDIT:[/B] I think the balancing act Korey might be referring to Retri is the acceptance of things that are pretty mainstream and yet individually you don't really agree with. You don't outright rebel, but you don't agree either. Hence the balancing act.

[2010DigitalBoy]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Before claiming to 'do whatever the **** you want' I want you to really think about what you're saying. Do you honestly only do exactly what you want without any influence from others whatsoever? Because Prem, it sounds like you are purposefully grouping yourself with said goth clique and black-werers at your school. The way you put it reminds me of my friend who claims to be individual however wears black and nail polish and such JUST because his friends do, and many of the things he does, he does just to appease his friends. after hanging out with me, I got him to admit his coforming ways and he settled for calling himself a steriotypical 'goth', however like whats-his-name said we are a mix, and my friend does have individuality (which he tends to only show to me, because he knows I don't care, lol)

When i say 'I do whatever the **** I want' I mean it exactly as it is I do WHATEVER I want. I listen only to what I find to my liking, I wear whatever I want (which is just whatever my mom buys me) and I say whatever I want to whomever I want (and thus a lot of people don't like me, lol) if you have even the slightest reservation, then you can't honestly say that you do whatever you want.

And as for this discussion on 'fake' people, I'm iffy on it. I'm guessing by fake you mean the troup of kids in Dead Kennedys T-shirts with no idea who they are that just bought it because it had guns on it and kids like that. However, if people are buying these products without knowing what these things mean, it doens't make them fake. It just means that they're the sor of person who buys things based on a certain kind of reasoning.

I don't think there are 'fake' people because everyone does have a reason for the things they do. If you see their shirt and think it should represent actually listening to the music, that's just your different opinion. [/COLOR]

[Panache]

[QUOTE]While I can't defend the dumb girl who would wear the Beatles shirt, I really don't think poser is a term that should be used to often. While that one chick is, without a doubt, posing (or maybe she was pulling a Johnny Rotten and trying to be ironic)[/QUOTE]Nah she aint that smart. but that is a good idea. I should buy a Gwen Stefani Shirt just to be ironic. It should be too small and pink. I'd be ironical and smexy!


,[QUOTE] I don't think you're really a poser for dressing in a Hip Hop manner and still listening to metalcore.[/QUOTE]I just wanted a cookie:animeswea

[QUOTE]I mean, if you were rocking a Jay-Z t-shirt and had never heard his music, then maybe, but beyond that, I don't really see where I could call a person a poser.[/QUOTE]Wait there are people who haven't heard Jay Z's music? I've met Amish people who have heard Jay Z. Weird. I guess in like third world countries...or North Korea.

[QUOTE] I wear skate shoes because I like how they look, and I don't skateboard, but no one calls me a poser, not even the skaters that I know.[/QUOTE]
Everyone wears skateboard shoes nowadays. Regardless of your "clique."
I mean my grandma has some Vans...

[QUOTE]So, heh. I don't really think it much matters, though in that girls case it does possibly apply.[/QUOTE]Yea it doesn't. And she was good lookin so I didn't really care(I did shove her shoe into my sweat Osiris's as punishment though).
Another moral. If your good looking people don't care if you do stupid things!

[Zen]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']It's not that no one's opinions matter, it's that saying something like this:Doesn't equate to someone not being an individual other than in perhaps The Boss's eyes. It's not the label, or the group or what is even considered mainstream that's the issue. People get so lost in worrying over whether or not the group they like is considered mainstream that they often forget that it's just possible that the person likes the group because it appeals to them. Hell you could take that statement to mean I follow the crowd since 99% of the time I only listen to what's considered classical music. And that would be just as inaccurate as the statement I just quoted.
[/QUOTE]

[color=darkred][size=1]

I wasn't trying to say that a person who listens to one genre of music based on personal tastes wasn't an individual. I was trying say that a person who listens to only one type of music and refuses to listen to others based on a stigma that they may be considered a loser or stupid mainstream person is not an individual because their descesion is based on the opinions of other people on their character rather than their actual taste in music.

It'd be like me actually liking an artist like Akon, but not listening to him or saying that I hate him because the group of people I assosciate with wouldn't approve of it. Or if I really didn't like Mike Jones, but I listened to him because they people I hang around listen to him. That was what I was trying to get across.

If you only like on genre of music, and genuinely don't enjoy other music, then that's perfectly fine. I wasn't trying to say you were conforming to a type if you were following what you actually enjoy. You simply misunderstood the message I was trying to convey. Or maybe I just worded it poorly.[/color][/size]

[Panache]

Is it weird that often times I can't tell the difference between a fake person and a non fake person? I mean most of the kids in my school like crappy music. But I can't really tell who actually likes it and who has gotten used to it just to like...conform. I mean if you asked me to spot one it would be like you asking me to tell the difference between a female and a male catfish. I would be like "**** can I get a hint?"

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='The Boss'][color=darkred][size=1][B]You simply misunderstood the message I was trying to convey. Or maybe I just worded it poorly.[/B][/color][/size][/QUOTE]Probably a little of both. ;)

Oh and DEM, I take fake to mean not being true to your tastes and doing things to fit in. For me that would be listening to music I do not enjoy. Probably just another word for poser, someone pretending to be something they are not, regardless of what the deal is.

[2010DigitalBoy]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']Probably a little of both. ;)

Oh and DEM, I take fake to mean not being true to your tastes and doing things to fit in. For me that would be listening to music I do not enjoy. Probably just another word for poser, someone pretending to be something they are not, regardless of what the deal is.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]I get what you mean, I guess being the opposite of that kind of person I hard to believe that people actually exist who exibit that sort of masochistic behavior...[/COLOR]

[Aberinkula]

[QUOTE]Because Prem, it sounds like you are purposefully grouping yourself with said goth clique and black-werers at your school.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="77656"]I've been influenced by one of my friends. My friend James got me into the music, and I grew the rest of the way on my own. [spoiler]he listtens to Nu-Metal and Hardcore, I did, than I grew out of it.[/spoiler]

And actually we don't have goths. We did though. We have a couple people that are just themselves. 1 girl listens to IDK what kind of music, and she dresses her own way. We aren't entirely made of them. I was generalizing. We're really just the outcasts.

Actually one of my freinds is just doing the same things my firend does. He does everything friend does. When my friend gets his hair cut the other does too. One listens to soemthing, suddenly the the listens to that too. He also thinks he's the best damn drummer around, when he sucks. He's always hitting things like a moron, and he says you wouldn't understand I'm a drummer. He also thinks he's emo or some ****, and he's not. He's the true definition of poser; someone who acts/dresses a certain what and lies about it and/or copies others to look 'cool.'

The person he copies sees this too, but he hasn't said anything.[/COLOR]