The Case of Sean Bell

[eleanor]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]
Yes, racism exists. It'll always exist as long as some bigoted jerk somewhere is allowed to procreate and pass on his self-absorbed ideals to his offspring.

But racism occurs on more than just the "whites hate blacks" level. It's even more pronounced from the reverse angle because of perceived white supremest racism, and it also extends against Asians, Hispanics, French, and Canadians. But you never hear about Hispanic hate crimes on the news, even though they spent as much time enslaved under Cortéz as Africans under white plantation owners?and often under brutally worse conditions?or about Chinese hiring discrimination. Whites hating blacks is a media selling point, and they know this.

I'm just absolutely sick of hearing the "racism!" hue and cry [I][U]every[/U] [U]time[/U][/I] some white guy kills some black guy. Maybe it [I]was [/I]a hate crime. Maybe it was random selection. Maybe it was a barfight that got out of control. Maybe the black guy was trying to be a hero and never got the chance to prove himself. You never know [U]until[/U] [U]afterwards[/U].

Get the facts before you incite the frikkin' mob.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms] If you're going to defend your argument of how racism doesn't play into everything, it's sort of irritating to see you pull the "it's always the whites that get blamed for racism" thing. Since when did anyone in the thread say "it's always the whites"? At this point you just sound like a white guy trying to defend white people, regardless of whether or not you are. And I doubt you are, but it just comes off that way. We know racism exists between other races. *I* know Asians are probably the most racist people freakin' ever. And no one attack me on this because I'm generalizing, because I know I am.

But complaining about never hearing about Hispanic hate crimes is like complaining about how we never see Hispanic kidnapping crimes in media. The point isn't that they are Hispanic or white or whatever, it's that the crime exists.

Would I like it if the media weren't so focused on white people? Sure. Isn't it sad that the media never picked up on Jena 6 and the W. Virginia rape/torture case until aggressive blogging popularized the issues?

On both sides you can make assumptions: the side who hounds the racism card might be people who hate white people, the side that thinks racism can't play a role because it "doesn't exists anymore" might be people who like to think to themselves that all white people aren't racist anymore. Everyone saying that people who think there's racism involved aren't thinking about it enough could take the same advice.

I mean, seriously:[/font]

[quote name='Allamorph'] Skin color no longer matters (it shouldn't have in the first place) and no one hates their brother any more.[/quote]

[font=trebuchet ms]That's semi-ridiculous. Skin color still matters, so you've already contradicted yourself. Both of my posts in this thread aren't even about the Sean Bell case, it's just about racism in general.

As someone who grew up as a minority, am I more predisposed to suspect racism? Yes. And I'm not ashamed of this or anything. A white person who grew up in a white community would probably have a harder time seeing subtle acts of racism or prejudice. A minority who grew up in a white community would probably suspect too quickly any racism in a problem. No one can be unbiased or the best judge, no matter how removed or well-sighted one thinks he/she is.[/font]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]There have been numerous psychological studies showing that people more frequently associate black people with violent acts and consider them to be more likely to be armed. People whose conscious thoughts tell them that black people are not inherently dangerous -- these are the people that also were more likely to associate a black man reaching into his pocket and pulling out a gun rather than a key. Go look the studies up yourself, I'm not making it up.[/font][/QUOTE]I find that statement amusing because having grown up in a predominantly white area, my first thought when associating crime with what could be considered a racial association... is to fellow [I]white[/I] people like myself. Because when the area you live in is close to 90% white, then you can pretty much guarantee that 90% or more of the crimes that are committed... are done so [I]by whites[/I].

Numerous studies that say otherwise are only as accurate as the pool or source the data is taken from, they don't account for the circumstances surrounding the individuals involved in the crime. That kind of study is useless in determining if such was the case for Sean Bell. Using studies to determine intent of that nature is a dangerous path to take, each case needs to be evaluated on it's own merits least you make the mistake of associating possible motivations that may have nothing to do with it.[quote name='Retribution;811268][font=Arial]Furthermore, the most brutal cop (in the respect that he fired 31 shots out of 50) was white (but as Nerdsy says, this does not vindicate the two black cops). He fired ~16 shots [i]then reloaded[/i] and kept going. So to say this was a "gut reaction" or "split second decision" is in my opinion erroneous. He wanted to play cowboy, and now a father is dead. Disgusting.[/font][/QUOTE]Excessive use of force? Yes. Wanted to play cowboy? Assumption with no basis in fact. Until each and every one of us have stood in that mans shoes, have experienced firing a gun at someone we mistakenly thought was dangerous; it's presumptuous to assume that we would be any better or that we would not react in the same manner. It's an easy road to sit back in our comfy chairs and read the articles and watch the television reports and pass judgment on others. Which is why I'm glad we have a law system instead of listening to the gut reaction of the public to such a tragedy.[quote name='Lunox;811287][font=trebuchet ms]But complaining about never hearing about Hispanic hate crimes is like complaining about how we never see Hispanic kidnapping crimes in media. The point isn't that they are Hispanic or white or whatever, it's that the crime exists.[/font][/QUOTE]No, the point I think that was being made, is that the media tends to focus on those crimes that will get the most attention (and ratings). Unfortunately it often tends to be ones that either are or aren't racist in regards to blacks (or rather could be taken either way). It's true here as well. I hate to say it, but some Hispanic kid gets nailed like that and there's barely a ripple. But if it's someone who's black? Then all hell breaks lose as if it was a deliberate racism issue. If crime was the only issue/problem, there would be more fair coverage of such things, but there isn't. So the complaint about not seeing the other is valid. We need to be giving equal air time to all cases not just ones that will get the strongest reaction out of people.[QUOTE=Lunox'][font=trebuchet ms']On both sides you can make assumptions: the side who hounds the racism card might be people who hate white people, the side that thinks racism can't play a role because it "doesn't exists anymore" might be people who like to think to themselves that all white people aren't racist anymore. Everyone saying that people who think there's racism involved aren't thinking about it enough could take the same advice.[/font][/quote]No, I think you've missed what Allamorph was getting at to begin with, he wasn't saying racism didn't exist, he was talking about how that card is used for media sensationalism, clouding the facts of what happened. Getting people to focus on the color of his skin instead of whether or not the officers should be charged.

Rachmaninoff touched on it briefly, the guy was drunk, he was ignoring police requests to pull over, hitting an officer with his car and then ramming an unmarked car. It doesn't mean the officers actions were justified, but it does point to glossing over what happened in favor of saying [I]they killed him because he was black[/I]. Which diverts from the true purpose of the trial, to determine if the officers should be charged or not.

Racism only has a place in a trial if it was a [I]KEY [/I]factor in causing the tragedy. Was this a hate crime? Was it key? No, I seriously doubt it based on what I've read. It was a stupid tragedy that sadly lead to the death of Sean Bell.[quote name='Lunox'][font=trebuchet ms]That's semi-ridiculous. Skin color still matters, so you've already contradicted yourself. Both of my posts in this thread aren't even about the Sean Bell case, it's just about racism in general.

As someone who grew up as a minority, am I more predisposed to suspect racism? Yes. And I'm not ashamed of this or anything. A white person who grew up in a white community would probably have a harder time seeing subtle acts of racism or prejudice. A minority who grew up in a white community would probably suspect too quickly any racism in a problem. No one can be unbiased or the best judge, no matter how removed or well-sighted one thinks he/she is.[/font][/QUOTE]You're missing the point again. In taking this case to trial, [I]skin color does not matter[/I]. No matter what happened, [I]everyone[/I] is entitled to a fair and just trial. You're reading way too much into what Allamorph was talking about.

I don't see anyone really saying racism or bias doesn't exist but rather we as a nation need to stop looking for it unless we have a damn good reason to think it's there. It's far to easy to think he only did it because the guy was black when it's next to impossible to really determine what was going through their minds at the time of the incident.

And seriously, if someone hit me with a car and then rammed another one and yet still ignored an order to stop? What the hell was the officer suppose to think? Oh it's okay, he's harmless? I mean seriously... wtf? This wasn't some immediate shoot the person because he's black...

This happened [I]after[/I] requests to stop were outright ignored and his actions were not that of someone simply walking or driving away, his actions were impaired on account of being drunk, leading to false impressions of what was truly going on. And sadly, it turned into an utter nightmare. [/FONT][/COLOR]