Obama Vs. Clinton. Greaves Vs. The world. And then there's John Mcain.

[Drizzt Do'urden]

I'm sure there have already been threads about this. I just didn't feel like going back page after page with this slow Television internet they give us here at Osan AB (Osan Air Force Base, Korea). I just want to see where everyone stands, what they like/dislike about the candidates/potential candidates. And who they've be voting for at this point.

I'll Start.
Well with the Clinton/Obama battle. I love watching democratic debates. Being a soldier and a strong, strong, ever so strong opionionated republican. It does my heart good to see two candidates battle it out, throwing almost exact view (though worded very different) to the table. Clinton says "I WILL pull the troops out when I get into office" Obama Says, "This war will end once I enter office" It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see they're fighting over the same thing. Sort've like the "hey look at that rock" "That's no rock its a pebble". That's just one example...oh and it doesn't help the fact that they're both racists in their own rights. Obama talks bad about the white middle class. So Clinton, being the more tactfull one, says "Obama is driving away the white voters, but he still has the african american voters" Boy oh Boy.

John Mcain, republican. Easy pick for me right? Wrong. I've thought of writing Ralph Nader in when I go to vote just to make a statement. But as far as evils go, he is the lesser of the three. White man, Boring, doesn't want much to change. (Has the balls to admit we are doing good in Iraq to a room full of democrates.).

Senator Greaves on the otherhand may have gotten my vote after his contribution to the Obama girl series on YouTube. Check it out if you get a chance. Though he probably won't have a snowballs chance in hell, or the democratic national convention as I like to call it.

Alot of Otaku members are too young to vote or from another country. Feel free to contribute. Though you may be to young to officailly cast your vote, your voice should still be heard.

Now I want to stress I want to keep this a political thread. I know I mentioned the war and that's one thing. But if all you're going to do is bad mouth the war go ahead and post at [email]www.kissmy@$&.com[/email] and leave me a message....or start a thread about that and I'll be happy to argue with you. I'd choose the ladder.

[Retribution]

[font=Arial]Although I really should be studying for my midterms, I'll give a quick post.

[quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']It does my heart good to see two candidates battle it out, throwing almost exact view (though worded very different) to the table. Clinton says "I WILL pull the troops out when I get into office" Obama Says, "This war will end once I enter office" It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see they're fighting over the same thing. Sort've like the "hey look at that rock" "That's no rock its a pebble".[/QUOTE]
This is why I find it hilarious when people say the Democratic party is experiencing a schism when ideologically we're more or less on the same page. So they're presenting [essentially] the same argument? A great deal of the Republicans tried to do the same, simply emphasizing different aspects of their careers that made them more qualified. None of them significantly broke party line either. The real race begins after the Democratic nomination.

[QUOTE]That's just one example...oh and it doesn't help the fact that they're both racists in their own rights. Obama talks bad about the white middle class. So Clinton, being the more tactfull one, says "Obama is driving away the white voters, but he still has the african american voters" Boy oh Boy.[/QUOTE]
I think it's incorrect to say Clinton and Obama are racists. Obama never singled out the white middle class, he said that rural citizens "cling to guns and religion." I wouldn't say that's racism so much as poor diction. To me, it doesn't strike me as Obama looking down on people, but lacking finesse in the delivery.

It's not an easy point to make. Of course, no one can speak for Obama, but I will at least try to explore what he meant. Essentially, Obama was speaking about the willingness to vote based off pandering from demagogues, pandering that created fear and thus a desire to "stick with what is known". When politicians exploit this very real xenophobia, it does indeed cause voters to "cling" to what is familiar, to what they see as defining a debate. People will vote simply off abortion or gay marriage, when in reality the critical issues of America are nowhere near those polarizing debates.

So to call it a racist remark, especially when [i]Obama himself is half-white[/i] is simply ridiculous.

[QUOTE]White man, Boring, doesn't want much to change. (Has the balls to admit we are doing good in Iraq to a room full of democrates.).[/QUOTE]
I guess I don't really see how this is admirable (aside from being able to stick to ones beliefs). Representing the establishment in every sense is not necessarily positive, and voting based off simply that archetype doesn't make much sense.[/font]

[Sandy]

[quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']I'd choose the ladder.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c323/SamSandy/3-1.png[/IMG]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Sandy'][IMG]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c323/SamSandy/3-1.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Sorry, Sandy. That's not a ladder.

[IMG]http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n72/Aceburner85/apollo-confidentc.gif[/IMG]

It's an extension ladder!

As for the actual topic, Out of the 2 Democrats, I'd definitely prefer Obama. Besides that stupidly low blow the original poster mentioned, Clinton seems to have a track record of changing her mind more often than the average Star Wars character has a bad feeling about something. Pretty much balances out Obama's inexperience nicely.

That said, I wish there was more people could do than vote for the lesser of 2 evils these days. Good thing I can't vote yet.:p

[eleanor]

[font=trebuchet ms] YOU ARE FORGETTING RON PAUL, GOSH[/font]

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]What's there to forget? And why shout? Ron Paul's been dead in the water since March. Or probably before March but it's late for me and I'm experiencing female cramps so you'll forgive me this lapse.

Talking about Ron Paul at this stage is like talking about Dennis Kucinich. Read: stupid.

I'll be voting for McCain because I appear to cling to guns and religions even though I myself am also only [i]half white[/i]. And the image of Obama lecturing the U.S. on race after the Reverend J. Wright fiasco isn't really the image of the bold leader I like. On the other hand, Hillary can go drown in a lake of congealed pus because the day she takes office is the day I go downstairs to the basement and make myself enough martinis to sink a battleship.

Of course at this point in the race, it's virtually ensured that the Democratic nomination is headed straight for Convention. How fun![/FONT][/COLOR]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Lunox][font=trebuchet ms'] YOU ARE FORGETTING RON PAUL, GOSH[/font][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]I can already hear the wailing laments of the millions of high-school and college Vegans as they mourn their idol.

It's better than Zoloft. :p[/FONT]

[eleanor]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]What's there to forget? And why shout? Ron Paul's been dead in the water since March. Or probably before March but it's late for me and I'm experiencing female cramps so you'll forgive me this lapse.
[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[font=trebuchet ms]Honestly, my post's sarcasm/gross exaggeration should have been enough to ring off the "this isn't a serious message" alarms. lol[/font]

[Raiha]

[quote name='Lunox'][font=trebuchet ms]Honestly, my post's sarcasm/gross exaggeration should have been enough to ring off the "this isn't a serious message" alarms. lol[/font][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]A voice crying in the wilderness you are.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]I'll be voting for McCain because I appear to cling to guns and religions even though I myself am also only [i]half white[/i]. And the image of Obama lecturing the U.S. on race after the Reverend J. Wright fiasco isn't really the image of the bold leader I like. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
You mean he knows this guy that has strong opinions, and somehow that reflects on [I]him[/I]?

Anyone basing their vote on anything Reverend Wright has said must not be able to actually think for themselves, because that is what they would be assuming about obama.

[Raiha]

[quote name='Morpheus']You mean he knows this guy that has strong opinions, and somehow that reflects on [I]him[/I]?

Anyone basing their vote on anything Reverend Wright has said must not be able to actually think for themselves, because that is what they would be assuming about obama.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Yes, it means he has opinions, and I don't agree with them. I'm not going to not vote for him based on the Reverend Wright situation. I'm going to not vote for him because I think he would be bad for America. Oh yeah, and I think he's a Marxist.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]I'm going to not vote for him because I think he would be bad for America. Oh yeah, and I think he's a Marxist.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Any support for this? Especially the last part.

[Sabrina]

[FONT="Tahoma"]My first time to vote and I'm less than thrilled. >_> Technically I was old enough to vote last time, but a car accident and being in the hospital kind of messed that up. Anyway, I plan on voting democratic, plain and simple really. [/FONT]

[Godot]

[quote name='Morpheus']You mean he knows this guy that has strong opinions, and somehow that reflects on [I]him[/I]?

Anyone basing their vote on anything Reverend Wright has said must not be able to actually think for themselves, because that is what they would be assuming about obama.[/QUOTE]

well considering the fact that he went to that church for 20 years I would have to say it is very suspect. But lets say that he doesnt have reverend wrights opinions and went to that church for 20 years oblivious to those comments...well I would call that a series lack of character judgement so then i start to think do i want someone with such poor judgement (and such poor bowling skills :animesmil)to be our president making huge descisions. Now I know that your friends dont completely tell a person who you are but dont you think it tells you a little bit, look at obama's wife and her view, dont you see those kind of ideas and those of wrights coming together a little bit?(atleast its very suspect), dont get me wrong im not saying obama hates America and that he is a marxist but he has made some bad choices and is very suspect, im sure obama has the nomination and that he hasnt heard that last of these issues

And heres another thing about obama for those who still think he didnt know about his pastors radical and anti-american views, obama disinvited wright from his campaign WHY!?!?! ill tell you why its because obama knew that wright had those radical views and that A LOT of people wouldnt agree with that. But the truth will come out eventually it cost obama when the wright controversy boiled over...



were not basing our vote completely on what wright said, but it is a factor. I would call it stupid to ignore this, we are talking about next president of the united states and i want to know everything about him, should we just choose to ignore?

20 years guys, he was his spiritual menter, friend, baptised his children, married him to his wife. dont tell me obama doesnt know him, dont tell me im dumb for being concerned about this and how it relates to obama

p.s. please dont hate me for giving my views, i know politics can cause a lot of division, we still love anime and manga in the end right? also i dont like all three Candidates so there political rant done for now

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Morpheus']Any support for this? Especially the last part.[/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Why? She openly declared they were her opinions, and she didn't try to convince you to follow suit. So since she wasn't arguing, she needed no support, and you've just been trolled.

Smile. (^_^)[/FONT]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Godot']Now I know that your friends dont completely tell a person who you are but dont you think it tells you a little bit, look at obama's wife and her view, dont you see those kind of ideas and those of wrights coming together a little bit?(atleast its very suspect)[/QUOTE]
No. No. A million times NO. I have many conservative friends, does that make me conservative in the slightest? Of course not

I Have a feeling that I won't see Jeremiah Wright on the ballot in November. Nor will I see Michele Obama. I will see Barack Obama. The vote is for him. Basing it on who he associates with is completely pointless. Unless there is some proof that he really is a simple minded idiot that takes all of the opinions of his friends I see no point in even considering that he might hear wrights sermons and all of a sudden believe everything he hears.

[Drizzt Do'urden]

[I] Please don't hate me for expressing my views [/I]

Sorry I can't delete very much at a time with this cheap tv computer. But this portion came from Godot. Its sort've sad when you feel that way, havingto be afraid of being belittled for your views.

And specifically to the personwho called my first post a "stupidly low blow". I may have choosen the easy way out in my initial comment. But you ^&*% sure better belive its how the white working class feels. That being said, that brings up another good point about the particular democratic candiates....WHO I ask you WHOhas had anything good to say about the middle class? I'm going to go with....John Mcain? Only candidate to acknowledge anyone other than just the upper and lower classes.

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Morpheus']Basing it on who he associates with is completely pointless.[/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Actually, you might want to reconsider that one. Not that I'm saying a man is completely defined by the company he keeps, but .... "a man is known by the company he keeps", as it were. So yeah, don't base your entire decision on it, but keep it in mind.

Also, I think you're downplaying the role of the pastor far too much. A church's pastor (or reverend or father or priest or what-have-you) is a huge part of the church itself, and few people join churches and become regular members if they have many and sincere reservations and/or disagreements with that pastor's teachings.

Now. Barack Obama's membership in that church under that pastor to me has no influence on my perception of him.

His membership [I]for twenty years[/I], however, does.

And you're right: just because Obama is married to that particular woman does not automatically imply that her beliefs are his beliefs. However, humans?while being quite private, independent creatures?are also decidedly social, and tend to form long-term and intimate relationships based on shared qualities and ideals. Therefore it is quite safe [I]and perfectly reasonable[/I] to assume that, though they certainly do not share every belief and conviction, a goodly amount of his ideals will line up with hers. Otherwise he probably would not have married her.

Although in this country right now, you never know. :p

Basically, while I do agree with you that a decision about Obama cannot be based completely on his associations, I [I]do not[/I] agree that one should discount them completely. To do such a summary dismissal of human nature is logically idiotic.

And I [I]still[/I] say nothing on whether or not I'd vote for him.[/FONT]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Drizzt Do'urden'][I] Please don't hate me for expressing my views [/I]

Sorry I can't delete very much at a time with this cheap tv computer. But this portion came from Godot. Its sort've sad when you feel that way, havingto be afraid of being belittled for your views.

And specifically to the personwho called my first post a "stupidly low blow". I may have choosen the easy way out in my initial comment. But you ^&*% sure better belive its how the white working class feels. That being said, that brings up another good point about the particular democratic candiates....WHO I ask you WHOhas had anything good to say about the middle class? I'm going to go with....John Mcain? Only candidate to acknowledge anyone other than just the upper and lower classes.[/QUOTE]
Not trying to hate, but would Obama saying "Middle Class Americans" somewhere in a speech make your vote a deadlock?

[Godot]

[quote name='Morpheus']No. No. A million times NO. I have many conservative friends, does that make me conservative in the slightest? Of course not

I Have a feeling that I won't see Jeremiah Wright on the ballot in November. Nor will I see Michele Obama. I will see Barack Obama. The vote is for him. Basing it on who he associates with is completely pointless. Unless there is some proof that he really is a simple minded idiot that takes all of the opinions of his friends I see no point in even considering that he might hear wrights sermons and all of a sudden believe everything he hears.[/QUOTE]

im saying that it makes him very suspect. Also are you saying that it doesnt matter who obama, or anyone for that matter associates with. O yeah my best friend is a crazy terrorist (im not talking about wright completely) we are awfully chummy, but I love america. Doesnt something seem wrong to you there?. Hey some of my friends has different opinions to, i have my share of liberal friends its fun debating them. But that is completely different from someone who says and I quote "God Damn America, its in the bible...". why do you think opra left the church ill tell you why its because wright crossed the boundries of [U]difference in opinion but we can still be friends, to- God damn america its in the bible,etc-[/U] having a friend that has disagreements with you (even the disagreements between conservative and liberal) is far different that having a friend that says God damn america blah blah blah. im glad to be in a country where we can have opinions and arguments, those who made this country had plenty of arguments and disagreements but they still loved this country and would disassociate themselfs from someone who said god damn america. thats the difference.

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Godot']im saying that it makes him very suspect. Also are you saying that it doesnt matter who obama, or anyone for that matter associates with. O yeah my best friend is a crazy terrorist (im not talking about wright completely) we are awfully chummy, but I love america. Doesnt something seem wrong to you there?. Hey some of my friends has different opinions to, i have my share of liberal friends its fun debating them. But that is completely different from someone who says and I quote "God Damn America, its in the bible...". why do you think opra left the church ill tell you why its because wright crossed the boundries of [U]difference in opinion but we can still be friends, to- God damn america its in the bible,etc-[/U] having a friend that has disagreements with you (even the disagreements between conservative and liberal) is far different that having a friend that says God damn america blah blah blah. im glad to be in a country where we can have opinions and arguments, those who made this country had plenty of arguments and disagreements but they still loved this country and would disassociate themselfs from someone who said god damn america. thats the difference.[/QUOTE]
Disassociating yourself from an individual just because you don't have the same political opinions or that person makes statements that you don't agree with is rather childish.

[Raiha]

[quote name='Morpheus']Not trying to hate, but would Obama saying "Middle Class Americans" somewhere in a speech make your vote a deadlock?[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Why should he? Come to think of it, could he possibly say anything about the middle class without sounding disingenuous? For starters, his pastor has apparently thumped into his brain the fact that "Middle Class "ness"" is supposed to be avoided. Which makes sense considering the Reverend Wright jumped from wherever the hell he lived in to a 10,000 square foot house in a private white neighborhood.

But anyway, we should probably look into the fact that you're just picking an argument here for no good reason.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"][B]Why should he? Come to think of it, could he possibly say anything about the middle class without sounding disingenuous? [/B] For starters, his pastor has apparently thumped into his brain the fact that "Middle Class "ness"" is supposed to be avoided. Which makes sense considering the Reverend Wright jumped from wherever the hell he lived in to a 10,000 square foot house in a private white neighborhood.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
So we have a paradox. What do you want from him, to [I]imply[/I] that there is a middle class but not actually say it?

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]But anyway, we should probably look into the fact that you're just picking an argument here for no good reason.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
People debate in a politics thread. This isn't a new thing.

[Godot]

[quote name='Morpheus']Disassociating yourself from an individual just because you don't have the same political opinions or that person makes statements that you don't agree with is rather childish.[/QUOTE]

saying "I think the republicans are right and thats my view", is quite a bit different than saying "GOD DAMN AMERICA!, ITS IN THE BIBLE...!", i agree that it would be childish to disassociate yourself from someone because of certain opinions like "i think government should be reduced and that we should have the individual do more", however when people say things like GOD DAMN AMERICA! ITS IN THE BIBLE! its different

what would you do if you went to a church like that? would you stay even after hearing retoric like that? please tell me

if you answer is that you would leave, well why? i think your answer will explain why so many people are concerned over obama's association with wright


[quote name='Drizzt Do'urden'][I] Please don't hate me for expressing my views [/I]

Sorry I can't delete very much at a time with this cheap tv computer. But this portion came from Godot. Its sort've sad when you feel that way, havingto be afraid of being belittled for your views.

And specifically to the personwho called my first post a "stupidly low blow". I may have choosen the easy way out in my initial comment. But you ^&*% sure better belive its how the white working class feels. That being said, that brings up another good point about the particular democratic candiates....WHO I ask you WHOhas had anything good to say about the middle class? I'm going to go with....John Mcain? Only candidate to acknowledge anyone other than just the upper and lower classes.[/QUOTE]

sry your right, but i was more afraid of being kicked from this site and alienated from others than my views being hated on (because this is one of the few places i can talk about anime, my school doesnt have very many anime fans:animecry:) , but let me clarify..........
I LOVE MAH VIEWS, I DARE YA TAH ARGA ME! I AINT AFRAID!

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']And specifically to the personwho called my first post a "stupidly low blow". I may have choosen the easy way out in my initial comment. But you ^&*% sure better belive its how the white working class feels.[/QUOTE]

What, WHA!?

Uh, no, dude. I was referring to the quote by Hillary Clinton contained in your initial post.

Sorry for the confusion.:animeswea