Legalization of Marijuana

[Ellerby]

[FONT="Tahoma"][COLOR="DimGray"]About a year ago I announced (in some arbitrary thread) that I was a casual smoker of pot. I was shocked by some of the reactions I got from certain members of the community (some good, some bad) but that's life. I've now found out that I'm not the only person on OB who smokes and so I decided to make a thread about it.

However because a thread on [I]just [/I]marijuana wouldn't be very exciting for those of you who [i]don't[/i] smoke, I thought I'd make it more interesting by making the topic the [b]Legalization of Pot[/b]. Cool? Let's get started with some facts.

[indent]ANNUAL AMERICAN DEATHS CAUSED BY DRUGS

TOBACCO (legal) ........................ 400,000
ALCOHOL (legal) ........................ 100,000
ALL LEGAL DRUGS ................ 20,000
ALL ILLEGAL DRUGS .............. 15,000
CAFFEINE ....................... 2,000
ASPIRIN ........................ 500
[B]MARIJUANA (illegal?) ...................... 0[/B]
----------------------------------------
Source: United States Government
National Institute on Drug Abuse,
Bureau of Mortality Statistics[/indent]

It is [b]impossible[/b] for a human being to consume so much marijuana that it kills them. The very worst that can happen if you overuse pot is extremely lethargic behavior and possible "greening out" (puking) which only happens if you smoke A LOT (in my 3 years of smoking I have never greened out) [i]and[/i] have a lot of food in your system.

I could ramble on with tons of reasons for making pot legal, but I'd really like to hear what you guys have to say first and then I'll respond. So do you think it should be legal? Why or why not?

And of course if you do smoke pot, I'd like to know! :)[/COLOR][/FONT]

[Retribution]

[font=Arial]First, I am a casual smoker of mary jane. I'm actually beginning to prefer it to alcohol - being high is much more fun than being drunk in my opinion.

I also think it should be legalized. Primarily, it's not as dangerous as alcohol and not as addictive as cigarettes/alcohol... and alcohol/cigarettes are status quo in our society. I think marijuana hasn't been legalized due to the dissemination of dubious information and the perception of it being a "youth" drug. It would also be extremely hard to regulate if it were legalized, thus there is no business interest backing the cause. If marijuana were legalized, people would probably begin growing it in greater numbers privately (and thus no company could really reap much benefit).[/font]

[Allamorph]

[FONT=Arial]I dunno, you guys. I think we've already hashed (lol-pun) this subject to death. I mean, to my knowledge there have been not [URL="http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=58381"][COLOR="Blue"]one[/COLOR][/URL], not [URL="http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=43368"][COLOR="Blue"]two[/COLOR][/URL], not [URL="http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=45463"][COLOR="Blue"]three[/COLOR][/URL], but [URL="http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=15143"][COLOR="Blue"][I]four[/I][/COLOR][/URL] threads on this already, and that's completely disregarding any threads I'm not aware of personally.

So although I'm not in any way questioning the validity of this discussion, I can't help but ask what purpose it will serve? The question's been had, guys.

Or are our memories that poor? :p[/FONT]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]So although I'm not in any way questioning the validity of this discussion, I can't help but ask what purpose it will serve? The question's been had, guys.

Or are our memories that poor? :p[/FONT][/QUOTE]Apparently so and since I've no desire to re-type up my response last time to making it legal... copy and paste! My opinion hasn't changed in less than a year. lol

I?ve no interest in supporting the legalization of Marijuana. And my reasons are as follows:
[LIST]
[*]Exposure, like second had smoke from cigarettes I want nothing to do with it or the cancer causing effects it can have. Just as I don?t want to be high either.
[/LIST]
The other reasons fall under how I?ve seen it affect those around me who do smoke it:
[LIST]
[*]Loss of interest in doing things with friends.
[*]Loss of interest in studying for school.
[*]Loss of interest in going to work on time.
[*]Loss of interest in doing things with their kids.
[*]Getting in trouble with the law for selling.
[*]Getting in trouble with the law for having it in their possession.
[*]Getting in trouble and fired from work for testing positive at a random drug screen.
[*]Dumping friends because they won?t ?smoke? with them.
[*]Dropping out of school because they quit studying and were failing.
[/LIST]
There are others but that sort of thing is what I?ve seen in each and every friend I?ve had who got into this stuff. So why would I want to legalize something that has done nothing but mess up the people I know who use it?

[Boo]

[size=1]Oh this is the point where I jump in and say something like: "What are you talking about? Marijuana is already legal." and a few OtakuBoarders make a "Dutchman..." remark and I'll be able to live on happily until a next marijuana or prostitution thread.

But really, pot stinks like hell. I should know, it's one of the most common odors here. Heck, in Amsterdam you smell it with every step you take. High (or stoned) people have been less of a burden to me than drunk people though. I lose a lot of sympathy for people who drink to get drunk. Influence of any kind might improve your personal experience, but it ruins the group experience.

Don't do drugs, kids. It's only cool while it's illegal.[/size]

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]I don't support legalization because honestly, who wants to have to pay taxes on something else they enjoy?

I don't.

That and it'll turn into one of those huge lumbering bureaucracies that just make you want to drown yourself in the more legal alcohol. While I personally see no harm in pot, just like there's no harm in alcohol or any harm in anything provided it's used in moderation.... I'm sure the typical 'pot is the devil's tool and a gateway drug to boot' crowd will disagree with me.

But as someone who has a non addictive personality to most things, I suppose I'm a minority because the typical 15 year old who experiments with pot will obviously end up doing cocaine off of his girlfriend's rear end by the time he's 18. Or will he? And by 'got into' do you mean began using chronically because I've used it a certain number of times and have yet to experience a loss of interest in anything besides perhaps listening to my room mates complain to me about my existence.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"]Words of wisdom from Boo:[quote name='Boo;813965][size=1]But really, pot stinks like hell.[/size][/QUOTE]Number one reason why I have no interest in the stuff or letting any of my friends smoke the stuff within 50 yards of where I'm living or standing.[quote name='Boo;813965][size=1]Influence of any kind might improve your personal experience, but it ruins the group experience. [/size][/QUOTE]Exactly.[QUOTE=Boo'][size=1']Don't do drugs, kids. It's only cool while it's illegal.[/size][/quote]*laughs*

So really [I]keep it illegal[/I], otherwise it won't be any fun or cool. :p[/COLOR]

[The Spectacular Professor]

I'll just drop my little opinion in a nutshell and be done with it.

I don't see the point. I can't fathom how legalizing it would make the world a better place, I don't wanna have to walk through someone else's crap-smelling gas cloud on my way to a movie and I really don't understand why people would ever want to get into the stuff in the first place. Thus ends my opinion. Thus ends my involvement in this thread.

[Godot]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']Apparently so and since I've no desire to re-type up my response last time to making it legal... copy and paste! My opinion hasn't changed in less than a year. lol

I?ve no interest in supporting the legalization of Marijuana. And my reasons are as follows:
[LIST]
[*]Exposure, like second had smoke from cigarettes I want nothing to do with it or the cancer causing effects it can have. Just as I don?t want to be high either.
[/LIST]
The other reasons fall under how I?ve seen it affect those around me who do smoke it:
[LIST]
[*]Loss of interest in doing things with friends.
[*]Loss of interest in studying for school.
[*]Loss of interest in going to work on time.
[*]Loss of interest in doing things with their kids.
[*]Getting in trouble with the law for selling.
[*]Getting in trouble with the law for having it in their possession.
[*]Getting in trouble and fired from work for testing positive at a random drug screen.
[*]Dumping friends because they won?t ?smoke? with them.
[*]Dropping out of school because they quit studying and were failing.
[/LIST]
There are others but that sort of thing is what I?ve seen in each and every friend I?ve had who got into this stuff. So why would I want to legalize something that has done nothing but mess up the people I know who use it?[/QUOTE]

Quoted for truth

[Epitome]

[size=1]Quite a while ago, I actually had a thread that was based on this topic too. I was doing a public policy project for American Government and that was the policy that was chosen for me.

Now to get to the point, I was completely for it back then. I was the definition of a "pot-head." I smoked everyday, everynight, before school, after school, during school, whatever. Name the time and I was probably trying to get "lifted." Its been about 3 years since I did that project, and now I am totally against the idea of it being legalized for many a reasons.

To start I will say this: Marijuana, regardless if you believe it or not, is a gateway drug. For some people, yeah, they can smoke pot all their lives and never move on to crack, cocaine, heroine, meth, and all the harder drugs in the book. But for most, they will. I started smoking weed at the age of 11 or 12 years old. Now don't get me wrong, I enjoyed doing it very much. It "eased my mind" as some would say. I continued smoking pot and drinking on occasion until cocaine was introduced to me. Now, I am an addict, I am in recovery. You can call me biased but this is my experience. I blew up when I try coke, and I could not stop. I went to outpatient rehab and got off of the cocaine but figured I could still smoke a little ganja, right? Wrong. Next thing I know, I started popping lauertabs, which are painkillers for those of you who do not know. That lead to OxyContin, which is one of the strongest pharmeceutical painkillers that are allowed to be prescribed. Guess what came next: heroine. So, yes it does lead to other drugs.

Another thing about those facts that you brough up 8-bit, how do you know that Marijuana is not included in "All Illegal Drugs." Now, you are correct, it is impossible to die from smoking too much weed, but who's to say that none of those "All Illegal Drugs," deaths were caused by somebody under the influence of marijuana and got into a car accident, or decided to commit suicide because they were under the influence. It is not illegal for a reason. People have lost their lives because they started smoking weed, believe it or not, it's true. I am living proof. I haven't used so I am back on my feet, but if I smoke weed again, I will shoot dope again, plain and simple.

Rachmaninoff also said it all. I started failing out of school when I began smoking weed. If my friends didn't like me smoking, who cares, I'll find friends who do. Smoking weed became the most important thing, everything else came second. I began selling weed and never got caught, but I have been caught with the possession of marijuana. It is not fun. And you will probably say, "well if it was legal, that would never happen." This is true, but their is obviously a reason for it being legal, some I have described.

My final reasons, which most pot smokers will never believe is as follows: Smoking 5 joints in a week has more carcinogens (cancer causing agents) in them than a pack of cigarettes a day. I have been in many rehabs and had this told to me and have looked it up many a times; it's true. The reason that "tobacco," is the cause of most deaths is because most pot smokers smoke cigarettes. Some don't, but most do. Now, I know most of you will disagree with me on this, but look it up in a real medical journal. Don't use wikipedia. It is true.

Now don't get me wrong, people can smoke weed and not turn into what I am today. But, weed isn't illegal so cops can make their quota by arresting kids with possession. It is illegal for a reason. Just a few months ago I would have been all for it being legalized, but I have learned there is a reason. Who knows, maybe one day it will be legalized, but whoever makes that decision, in my opinion, is just setting themselves up for more addicts and more drug problems in the US than what we have today.

So, that is my opinion on the situation. If anyone is interested read up on the old thread I created a while back, and maybe you will get some more feedback.

EDIT:[quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]I also think it should be legalized. Primarily, it's not as dangerous as alcohol and not as addictive as cigarettes/alcohol[/font][/QUOTE]

I just read this and I wanted to add something to my post. You are thinking along physical lines. Alcohol and cigarettes have a physical addiction where your body becomes accustomed to having that alcohol and nicotine in your system, much like opiates (heroine, tabs, OxyContin, morphine, dilated). If you don't get that drug in your system, you go through physical withdrawal. Marijuana has a psychological withdrawal to it; its a known fact. Try not smoking for a month, you may be able to, you may not. But I assure you throughout that time, there will be periods where all you can think about is smoking a nice fat "l."[/size]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"][FONT="Book Antiqua"][quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]I dunno, you guys. I think we've already hashed (lol-pun) this subject to death. I mean, to my knowledge there have been not [URL="http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=58381"][COLOR="Blue"]one[/COLOR][/URL], not [URL="http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=43368"][COLOR="Blue"]two[/COLOR][/URL], not [URL="http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=45463"][COLOR="Blue"]three[/COLOR][/URL], but [URL="http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=15143"][COLOR="Blue"][I]four[/I][/COLOR][/URL] threads on this already, and that's completely disregarding any threads I'm not aware of personally.

So although I'm not in any way questioning the validity of this discussion, I can't help but ask what purpose it will serve? The question's been had, guys.

Or are our memories that poor? :p[/FONT][/QUOTE]That's what I was just thinking, that we've hashed this out already. I know my memory isn't that poor and my opinion hasn't changed either. Rach already summed up why I have no interest in seeing it become legal, other than one thing... it stinks like hell. I believe Raiha had the most [I]colorful [/I]way of putting it last time... she is [I]so[/I] right about that too. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"] And by 'got into' do you mean began using chronically because I've used it a certain number of times and have yet to experience a loss of interest in anything besides perhaps listening to my room mates complain to me about my existence.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]You're just naturally cranky so I think it protected you from getting addicted. [I][SIZE="1"]*ducks*[/SIZE][/I]

Anyway, my opinion hasn't really changed and there's no need to re-hash what Rach already posted. Plus I've seen how it lead to further destructive behavior down the road in more than just one person. I've lost lots of friends over the years to it.

If someone smokes it I'm not going to try and do anything about it, but if they move to legalize it and it's left up to a vote, my answer will be no. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Darren]

Hahaha... :animeswea

Oh man, I remember when I was actually [U]forced[/U] to debate about this topic. Let me tell you 8Bit: It's a losing battle. But other than my debate, (which was in the arena thread anyway) I was only around to give my opinion on one marijuana thread, which I didn't because I had just lost miserably to SunfallE in the OtakuBoards: Survivor contest of the same topic.

[quote name='8bit'][FONT="Tahoma"][COLOR="DimGray"]The very worst that can happen if you overuse pot is extremely lethargic behavior and possible "greening out" (puking) which only happens if you smoke A LOT (in my 3 years of smoking I have never greened out)[/COLOR][/FONT][/QUOTE]
I'm definitely sure this isn't a good thing, but I "greened" for the first time almost two weeks ago. It was a graduation celebration and it wasn't that I smoked a lot, but that the marijuana was of great quality! (Then again, it might have had something to do with the fact that I hadn't been feeling well all that day and that I had ulcers at the time... So maybe I didn't, but oh well)

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']Apparently so and since I've no desire to re-type up my response last time to making it legal... copy and paste! My opinion hasn't changed in less than a year. lol

I?ve no interest in supporting the legalization of Marijuana. And my reasons are as follows:
[LIST]
[*]Exposure, like second had smoke from cigarettes I want nothing to do with it or the cancer causing effects it can have. Just as I don?t want to be high either.
[/LIST]
The other reasons fall under how I?ve seen it affect those around me who do smoke it:
[LIST]
[*]Loss of interest in doing things with friends.
[*]Loss of interest in studying for school.
[*]Loss of interest in going to work on time.
[*]Loss of interest in doing things with their kids.
[*]Getting in trouble with the law for selling.
[*]Getting in trouble with the law for having it in their possession.
[*]Getting in trouble and fired from work for testing positive at a random drug screen.
[*]Dumping friends because they won?t ?smoke? with them.
[*]Dropping out of school because they quit studying and were failing.
[/LIST]
There are others but that sort of thing is what I?ve seen in each and every friend I?ve had who got into this stuff. So why would I want to legalize something that has done nothing but mess up the people I know who use it?[/QUOTE]

To be perfectly fair, Rach: You can't just lump all pot-heads into one category like that. Take me, for example: I smoke a lot. (At least 3 days a week) However, I still hang out with my friends all the time. (and no, they don't smoke. And I never have to make them uncomfortable by smoking in front of them) I was never really interested in school to begin with, but for all intents and purposes, I aspire to graduate college with excellent grades and I graduated from high school ranked 4th over all, with an honors diploma and a pretty decent scholarship. I held a steady part-time job my junior and senior year, (I just quit, actually) and I was late once, but it had nothing to do with marijuana. (But be serious here, who really wants to go to work anyway?) I don't know anyone who has a kid and smokes pot, but I know plenty of people who have kids and don't. Surprisingly, there are a lot of them who also don't have interest in doing things with their kids. I've never dumped my friends, or vice versa, because of marijuana. Like I said earlier, I try to be kind about that and smoke only around those who I know are okay with it and I never ask another friend to smoke with me. And I know it's easy to say that people have the tendency to drop out of school when they get heavy into marijuana, but I think the drop-out rate is probably higher with people who go out to party. (Those parties usually consisting of alcohol consumption. Not marijuana) If they drop out due to marijuana, meh. They should know when to say they're done. Sorry, but if they can't be smart about drugs (the same way that people need to be smart about alcohol) then they're bound to ruin their lives.

My point is that anyone can display those attributes at any given moment of their life. Some display all of them consecutively. Other, none at all. It's not just pot-heads that are guilty of it.

Now as far as getting busted for breaking the law: You got me there, but since this thread is about legalization, I don't really think they apply.

Legalization: I don't care one way or another. 8Bit's statistics are great reasons for "Why not?" But it doesn't really provide any, "Why?" reasons... (But then again, if you think about it, Tobacco and Alcohol are both lacking in those reasons as well)

I agree with Retribution:
[quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]It would also be extremely hard to regulate if it were legalized, thus there is no business interest backing the cause. If marijuana were legalized, people would probably begin growing it in greater numbers privately (and thus no company could really reap much benefit).[/font][/QUOTE]

And however much I disagree with what most have said about the smell, (I happen to love the smell of marijuana, but that opinion anyway. I don't see how that's a valid point) I wouldn't want legalization to grant people the right of lighting up in a restaurant or public place. I think that if it were legalized, there would have to be signs on certain bars, saying that it was allowed. If someone didn't like that, go to another bar or just don't smoke while you're there. Furthermore, I think that legalization should come with the same terms as drinking. If you're caught smoking in public, maybe you should get a major fine or arrested or something... Or, if you're obviously high and a police officer notices, you should get the same punishment as public intoxication. And of course, there should be an age limit. Probably 21. If you're caught driving while high, (Stoners tend to space out, which leads to swerving and can cause an accident) they should be arrested just like it were a DUI...

That way, it keeps the act private and still puts boundaries that wouldn't make it uncontrollable or intolerable.

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][quote name='Darren']Hahaha... :animeswea

Oh man, I remember when I was actually [U]forced[/U] to debate about this topic. Let me tell you 8Bit: It's a losing battle. But other than my debate, (which was in the arena thread anyway) I was only around to give my opinion on one marijuana thread, which I didn't because I had just lost miserably to SunfallE in the OtakuBoards: Survivor contest of the same topic.[/QUOTE]You know, I should have just linked to my final argument in that debate that Sandy dragged us through. I hadn't thought of that [[SIZE="1"]because it's been long enough that I'd forgotten about it[/SIZE]] Lord knows I certainly researched and typed up more than enough for that paticular challenge. :animestun[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Epitome]

[size=1][color=#4863A0]I was just reading over this thread again and I found out some other things that I would like to add to the matter.

Now, I didn't blatantly admit it either when I brought this topic up when I was up for it being legalized, but no one here has just straight up said "I want it legalized so I can blaze out legally." Now no one has said it, but I'm almost 100% sure that all of you that are up for it being legalized, smoke the green. Doesn't that make sense?

[quote name='Darren']I don't know anyone who has a kid and smokes pot, but I know plenty of people who have kids and don't.[/quote]

Trust me, they are out there. There is an old friend of mine who lives right down the street from me who has parents that actually grow their own pot. Now, they think that marijuana brings them closer together, which it probably can. But just because you don't have the experience of knowing people who don't smoke and have kids doesn't mean they dont exist. That also goes hand in hand with the fact that you never showed up late for a job, dropped out of school, etc. Just because you didn't doesn't mean it does not happen. Maybe you just haven't gotten to that point yet. Maybe you have dropped down the scale far enough.

[quote name='Darren']But I think the drop-out rate is probably higher with people who go out to party. (Those parties usually consisting of alcohol consumption. Not marijuana)[/quote]

I'm not too sure what parties you are going too, but marijuana, cocaine, ecstacy, and all sorts of drugs are used at parties. I went to St. Bonaventure my first semester and almost every party I went to I was offered some type of drug if not a nice little toke on the chiba.

[quote name='Darren']They should know when to say they're done. Sorry, but if they can't be smart about drugs (the same way that people need to be smart about alcohol) then they're bound to ruin their lives.[/quote]

Some people, like myself, are addicts and alcoholics. They don't know when to stop. Its a disease that tells them that they can keep going and everything will be okay, when in all reality their whole lives are falling down around them. Now you can get help like I did, but some don't. So don't even come to accept the fact that they do have this disease and won't put down the alcohol or drugs. Why? Because they are in love with that bottle, that bag, or whatever it is. It solves their problems for that while of being high or drunk. But when they stop, they have to face reality and that is too much for people sometimes. Oh and I forgot to mention physical withdrawal, thats a huge factor too. Okay I'm done now.[/size][/color]

[Nerdsy]

[quote name='Epitome'][size=1][color=#4863A0] Now no one has said it, but I'm almost 100% sure that all of you that are up for it being legalized, smoke the green. Doesn't that make sense?[/size][/color][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]Not all of us who think it should be legalized smoke it. I have no desire to use the stuff.[/color]

[Raiha]

[quote name='Epitome'][size=1][color=#4863A0]
Now, I didn't blatantly admit it either when I brought this topic up when I was up for it being legalized, but no one here has just straight up said "I want it legalized so I can blaze out legally." Now no one has said it, but I'm almost 100% sure that all of you that are up for it being legalized, smoke the green. Doesn't that make sense?[/size][/color][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Not at all. Did you even read my post?

I don't want to pay taxes on it because unlike the majority of kiddies here, I'm old enough to have to actually care about where my money comes from to do any particular vice that takes my fancy. Here's what I say.

"I am not up for it being legalized, and I smoke the green."

Oh yes and you're so right Beth dear. "Anger. My Anti-Drug."[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Kenso]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Epitome, I'm going to have to shoot down your idea of 'if for legalization, obviously a user'.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]I do not, have not, and will not smoke pot. It's just never interested me. I do, however, support its legalization.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Of the people I've known who do (of which there are many), only two ever tried anything harder, and neither of them continued on with them.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]This isn't to say I haven't seen the downsides of pot. A friend of mine (Dave for privacy reasons) with whom I played D&D for a while was high pretty much 24/7. He was smoking pretty much from the second he woke up to the second he went to sleep. And while he could function, he was not the person he was when he was doing it casually. But he'd fallen into heavy use in a depression due to the death of his mother.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]It took another friend (who also smokes pot) (Jerry, privacy again) to make him realize just how bad he'd gotten. To Dave's credit, he managed to beat it, withdrawals and all, partly thanks to support from Jerry and the rest of the group, and partly due to his own desire to do so.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Dave and Jerry both still use casually. Neither of them have displayed any of the problems mentioned. Both of them find the idea that they would try something harder straight up offensive, and Jerry is raising two absolutely wonderful children (though he does not smoke in front of them, and I'm fairly certain they're not aware he does at all). Jerry is, without a doubt, one of the three smartest people I have EVER met, and Dave is not exactly stupid himself.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]I've also known alcoholics and tobacco addicts who were much like Dave (my father included when it comes to cigarettes). NONE of them have been able to beat the addictions, period. My father periodically tries to quit smoking, but it leaves him sick and he gets nightmares (and he can't use the patches, b/c he's allergic to the adhesive). And this is from a man who has had multiple back surgeries and has been told he'd be in a wheelchair the rest of his life more than once, but walks on his own (most of the time without a cane) because he refuses to give in. But he can't quit tobacco.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]My other big reason is simple. It's true that if it was legalized, no one would be able to make any real money on it since it's easy to grow. However, how much money would be saved if we stopped having to try and stop it. How much money is spent every year on catching, persecuting, jailing, etc. criminals with pot-related crimes? I don't know the exact number, but I'm certain it's damned high. So while you're not making any money on it directly, you're saving a lot not trying to stop it. (Not to mention freeing up the manpower for better uses.)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Anyway, I'm very tired right now, so that may not be as coherent as I would've liked, but that's my thoughts on the matter.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[DeLarge]

[SIZE=1]I've smoked a few times, at festivals or the occasional really heavy party, and while I enjoyed it at the time, I never felt the urge to do it more regularly. I was surrounded by similarly stoned people, and to be frank, they were just boring, so I went and tried to hang out with some non-stoned people, and they left because I reeked of the stuff.

I've also hung out with people who were stoned while I was totally sober (being the designated driver sucks) and found them to be intensely irritating. Plus, like Raiha, I don't have an addictive personality.

But I do realise that marijuana is a whole lot less damaging (at least in the short-term) than alcohol, so I fail to see a logical reason why it shouldn't be legalised. However, I think it should be controlled, like smoking cigarettes is in England now - I don't think you should be allowed to do it in public places. Amsterdam have the right idea, with hash bars and so on. I don't mind people smoking it, as long as they keep the smell away from me. But that's just my lefty, liberal, corduroy-wearing opinion.
[/SIZE]

[Epitome]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Not at all. I don't want to pay taxes on it because unlike the majority of kiddies here, I'm old enough to have to actually care about where my money comes from to do any particular vice that takes my fancy. Here's what I say.

"I am not up for it being legalized, and I smoke the green."

Oh yes and you're so right Beth dear. "Anger. My Anti-Drug."[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[size=1][color=#4863A0]I stand corrected then. However, I do believe that a lot of people, I shouldn't have said almost 100%, would prefer it legalized so they don't have to face legal consequences, for those that do smoke. However, I was wrong in one instance, I could be wrong in many.

[quote name='Kenso'][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Epitome, I'm going to have to shoot down your idea of 'if for legalization, obviously a user'.[/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]

I agree, I was wrong to say that.

[quote name='Kenso'][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]My other big reason is simple. It's true that if it was legalized, no one would be able to make any real money on it since it's easy to grow. However, how much money would be saved if we stopped having to try and stop it. How much money is spent every year on catching, persecuting, jailing, etc. criminals with pot-related crimes? I don't know the exact number, but I'm certain it's damned high. So while you're not making any money on it directly, you're saving a lot not trying to stop it. (Not to mention freeing up the manpower for better uses.)[/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]

To address this manner. Yes we would probably save a lot of money but how much money do we spend catching, persecuting, and jailing people who are drunk while driving? Would you prefer if they made it legal to drive while under the influence of alcohol? And with the saving money, comes the fact that if legalized, which Raiha straightened me out on, taxes would definitely be placed. Today, in my state (New York), the tax on a pack of cigarettes went up $1.40. I smoke cigarettes so its a bummer to me, but would you like the U.S. taxing, as Raiha said, something you enjoy doing? Even though I believe it is something that shouldn't be done period, you are still going to be paying ridiculous amounts of tax money to get high. Whether it be through paying taxes you pay to pay for jailing and all that, or going to the corner store to buy a pack of doobies.

Also, if you take the statistics, people who start smoking pot at a younger age are more likely to go to harder drugs as well. And like you said, some do and don't continue into the addiction. I am biased, I am an addict. It is a gateway drug. It is a fact. For me, pot just didn't cut it anymore and I needed something better.

[quote name='Kenso'][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Both of them find the idea that they would try something harder straight up offensive, and Jerry is raising two absolutely wonderful children[/quote][/font][/size]

I did too. Before I started smoking pot, I told myself I'd never do it. I did it. So I told myself I'd never do anything worse. I did. I tried cocaine. I then told myself that I would never do it again. I did. So I told myself I wouldn't use heroine. Can you guess what happened? I did. This is a progressive thing. Some don't get that effect yes, but some like me did. That is why I am so against it. In an indirect way, weed ruined my life.[/size][/color]

[Raiha]

[quote name='Epitome'][size=1][color=#4863A0]
I did too. Before I started smoking pot, I told myself I'd never do it. I did it. So I told myself I'd never do anything worse. I did. I tried cocaine. I then told myself that I would never do it again. I did. So I told myself I wouldn't use heroine. Can you guess what happened? I did. This is a progressive thing. Some don't get that effect yes, but some like me did. That is why I am so against it. In an indirect way, weed ruined my life.[/size][/color][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]In an indirect way? Then why say that? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that it was your own willpower that ruined your life? If you had simply known when to stop, or to say no, you would've never done pot in the first place. It's a progressive thing for you. Not everyone. And that almost 100% seems wrong when you have at least five people going "not at all" in a thread with less than 20 people in it.

I've watched my pothead friends cut coke on the table for a friend, but I never thought: "Well that seems like a brilliant idea." I also have seen them switch E pills from a friend for joints instead. And the four of us never thought using E would be a good idea either. None of my pothead friends use any other illegal drugs, they all are getting 3.0 GPA averages in college, and by pothead I mean three to four times a week.

When I use pot, I end up lying flat on my back in my friend's bed, listening to Pink Floyd with him and watching shadows dance on the walls. I didn't feel a pressing urge to do anything else my friend's offered me. And while another non pothead friend suggested something I had the wherewithal to tell him to drop dead. I find pot useful for experiencing music in different ways as well as relaxing after the mind numbing effects of mid-terms or finals when you're doing 20 units a quarter.

But this sparks my real question: How the hell did you make the leap from weed to heroin?

Nevermind. I don't want to know. On the other hand, why let your negative experiences with substances ruin your life? It's not like you died from it all. And if your life is ruined, that's odd. Because you're clearly typing coherently and capable of getting online and talking to other humans. Wouldn't "ruined" be more fitting if you lost control of your limbs, or your brain, or your ability to breathe?[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Ellerby]

[FONT="Tahoma"][COLOR="DimGray"][INDENT][quote name='Epitome'][size=1]its a known fact. Try not smoking for a month, you may be able to, you may not. But I assure you throughout that time, there will be periods where all you can think about is smoking a nice fat "l."[/size][/QUOTE]
I think you mean a nice fat "J." As in joint.

[quote name='Boo']Influence of any kind might improve your personal experience, but it ruins the group experience.[/quote]
I actually rarely smoke when I'm with friends who don't smoke so for me that doesn't even apply. lol

[quote name='Aceburner']I can't fathom how legalizing it would make the world a better place, I don't wanna have to walk through someone else's crap-smelling gas cloud on my way to a movie and I really don't understand why people would ever want to get into the stuff in the first place.[/quote]
Legalizing it wouldn't make the world a better place. I don't know where you got that idea from. But it [i]would[/i] make things easier for those of us who do smoke pot. I'm sorry for wanting to be able to smoke a completely harmless plant at the side of my own frakking house without having to worry about a damn cop busting me.

[quote=Rachmaninoff]
Exposure, like second had smoke from cigarettes I want nothing to do with it or the cancer causing effects it can have. Just as I don?t want to be high either.
The other reasons fall under how I?ve seen it affect those around me who do smoke it:
Loss of interest in doing things with friends.
Loss of interest in studying for school.
Loss of interest in going to work on time.
Loss of interest in doing things with their kids.
Getting in trouble with the law for selling.
Getting in trouble with the law for having it in their possession.
Getting in trouble and fired from work for testing positive at a random drug screen.
Dumping friends because they won?t ?smoke? with them.
Dropping out of school because they quit studying and were failing.[/quote]
First of all, you can't get high from second hand smoke. It [i]does not[/i] work like that. You'd have to be in a hot box (a small enclosed room where the smoke has absolutely nowhere to go) and just sit there as people blow smoke in your face. And judging from your post, I don't think you'd be willing to do that.

I can understand the loss of interest in _____ parts, that does happen (although you have to be willing to let it happen which most people are not) but getting in trouble with the law? That's not a reason for why pot should be illegal. That's like saying "I think marijuana should be illegal because it's already illegal."

And they dumped friends who wouldn't smoke with them? Seems like they were just a poor person to begin with. Sorry.

[quote name='Epitome']To start I will say this: Marijuana, regardless if you believe it or not, is a gateway drug. ... ... ... So, yes it does lead to other drugs.[/quote]
No. It's not a gateway drug. The only reason it's considered a gateway drug is because it's the most readily available illegal drug.

"The more users become integrated in an environment where, apart from cannabis, hard drugs can also be obtained, the greater the chances they will experiment with harder drugs."

In other words, if pot was legal, it would be impossible for it to lead to other drugs.

[quote name='Epitome']Another thing about those facts that you brough up 8-bit, how do you know that Marijuana is not included in "All Illegal Drugs."[/quote]
Because then they wouldn't have given it its own section. :rolleyes:

[quote name='Epitome']or decided to commit suicide because they were under the influence[/quote]
What the hell kind of weed did you smoke? Was it laced? Because as far as I'm concerned, weed does [i]not[/i] make you depressed, especially not enough to make you end your life. Weed makes you happy.

I know a girl, whose name will be Susan, who just got really down on herself a lot. She started seeing a therapist and taking prescription pills to fight the depression (that was about a year ago). Three months ago she started smoking weed and it has helped her immensely. Even the therapist agreed that as something she could keep to herself from her parents (her parents nosy personalities were part of the problem), it's made her more secure. Now it's not like weed changed her life or anything. She has a long way to go still, but at least it's giving her a shove in the right direction.

[quote name='Epitome']My final reasons, which most pot smokers will never believe is as follows: Smoking 5 joints in a week has more carcinogens (cancer causing agents) in them than a pack of cigarettes a day. I have been in many rehabs and had this told to me and have looked it up many a times; it's true[/quote]
I won't look it up, I'll take your word for it. But how come there has never been a recorded death in the history of the world where Marijuana or a health problem caused by smoking pot was the cause of death? And yet millions die every year from cigarettes. Maybe a lot of pot heads do smoke cigarettes, but it doesn't work the other way. There are tons of tobaccos smokers who would never touch pot.

[quote name='Epitome'] Marijuana has a psychological withdrawal to it; its a known fact.[/quote] No. It's not a "known fact." It's not difficult at all to stop smoking pot. You get that "psychological withdrawal" when you [I]also[/I] smoke cigarettes and that craving makes you crave tobacco [I]and[/I] weed. I do not ever crave weed because I don't smoke cigarettes. I regularly take monthly breaks from pot when I feel I'm using it too much. It's not hard.

[quote name='Kenso']My other big reason is simple. It's true that if it was legalized, no one would be able to make any real money on it since it's easy to grow. However, how much money would be saved if we stopped having to try and stop it. How much money is spent every year on catching, persecuting, jailing, etc. criminals with pot-related crimes? I don't know the exact number, but I'm certain it's damned high. So while you're not making any money on it directly, you're saving a lot not trying to stop it. (Not to mention freeing up the manpower for better uses.)[/quote]

QFT.[/INDENT][/COLOR][/FONT]

[Retribution]

[font=Arial]Pot is not a gateway drug in and of itself. There is nothing intrinsic to it that compels people to take up heroin, painkillers, cocaine, crack, etc. The only reason it is a gateway drug is [i]because it?s illegal[/i]. Its illegality forces kids to interact with a network of drug dealers who happen to have harder drugs on them as well ? without this compulsion (i.e. if you were growing it yourself or buying it from a store) there would not be a ?gateway? effect. Also, some people who do pot generally have no qualms with trying harder drugs to begin with, so to blame their further experimentation on marijuana is an attribution error. This is to say that their personality (or upbringing) more or less predisposes them to try riskier things. Remember: correlation is not causation.

I don?t think anyone?s advocating use of pot in a restaurant, mall, or shop. Cigarettes aren?t allowed there, and I don?t think pot should be either. However, the freedom to smoke at, say, one?s house should not be denied. This isn?t a matter of ?I don?t want to get busted,? it is a matter of not criminalizing harmless behavior; I personally believe this is a central principle of a democratic society founded upon the idea of ?liberty?. I supported the legalization of marijuana before I tried it, and I still do. To assert that people want to legalize marijuana simply to evade legal repercussions is hilariously reductionist ? please do not dismiss the possibility that some people believe others should be able to do what they want, so long as they do not harm others.

Sure, weed might make some people lazy or boring. But alcohol can make some people violent and dangerous to themselves or others. So to use that as a critique simply doesn?t make sense (unless you also support prohibition). And honestly, if someone stops caring about their schoolwork because they wanted to try weed, that?s their problem. Just as it?s the student?s own problem if they become an alcoholic and neglect schoolwork, the state should not have to look out for all our poor decisions and personal mistakes. Advocate responsibility and moderation, not bans and censorship for ?the greater good.?[/font]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Darren']To be perfectly fair, Rach: You can't just lump all pot-heads into one category like that. Take me, for example: I smoke a lot. (At least 3 days a week) However, I still hang out with my friends all the time. (and no, they don't smoke. And I never have to make them uncomfortable by smoking in front of them) I was never really interested in school to begin with, but for all intents and purposes, I aspire to graduate college with excellent grades and I graduated from high school ranked 4th over all, with an honors diploma and a pretty decent scholarship. I held a steady part-time job my junior and senior year, (I just quit, actually) and I was late once, but it had nothing to do with marijuana. (But be serious here, who really wants to go to work anyway?) I don't know anyone who has a kid and smokes pot, but I know plenty of people who have kids and don't. Surprisingly, there are a lot of them who also don't have interest in doing things with their kids. I've never dumped my friends, or vice versa, because of marijuana. Like I said earlier, I try to be kind about that and smoke only around those who I know are okay with it and I never ask another friend to smoke with me. And I know it's easy to say that people have the tendency to drop out of school when they get heavy into marijuana, but I think the drop-out rate is probably higher with people who go out to party. (Those parties usually consisting of alcohol consumption. Not marijuana) If they drop out due to marijuana, meh. They should know when to say they're done. Sorry, but if they can't be smart about drugs (the same way that people need to be smart about alcohol) then they're bound to ruin their lives.[/QUOTE]To be perfectly fair, yes I can. Re-read what I posted, I listed the effects I saw happen to people I know. I didn?t once say that ?all? pot users suffered the same symptoms, but hey let?s not stop there. This isn?t some simple I saw this once sort of deal, this is something I?ve observed for over a decade among friends and even the students I work with in the past three years. It?s not a snap judgment it?s one of seeing the same pattern happen again and again.

You?re also missing what I?m saying here, those are the reasons why I would not vote yes for it being legalized. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant. Everyone makes their decision based on a combination of outside information and personal experience, and mine is that we don?t need more ?legal? stuff for people to smoke. [quote name='Darren;814046]My point is that anyone can display those attributes at any given moment of their life. Some display all of them consecutively. Other, none at all. It's not just pot-heads that are guilty of it.[/QUOTE]You?re still missing the point again, I never said that only people who use pot had those kind of problems, I said those I knew who did, had them. It was something that they didn?t suffer with until after they got into the drug use in the first place. And that?s their words not mine, some got out of using it and others still haven?t. [QUOTE=Darren']Now as far as getting busted for breaking the law: You got me there, but since this thread is about legalization, I don't really think they apply.

Legalization: I don't care one way or another. 8Bit's statistics are great reasons for "Why not?" But it doesn't really provide any, "Why?" reasons... (But then again, if you think about it, Tobacco and Alcohol are both lacking in those reasons as well)[/QUOTE]Wrong, they do apply. Until someone can give me a decent reason as to why we should legalize more ?recreational? drugs, getting busted for having them is an issue.

Well yeah, that is the problem with those statistics, that?s like saying anything that doesn?t kill should be legal, pretty poor reasoning in my opinion, especially since like Beth proved in that debate you had with her, the medical benefits that usually come up have already been given the green light and a synthetic approved in pill form that is actually used, so arguing to smoke it for that reason kind of falls short as well.
[quote name='8bit'][FONT="Tahoma"][COLOR="DimGray"][INDENT]First of all, you can't get high from second hand smoke. It [i]does not[/i] work like that. You'd have to be in a hot box (a small enclosed room where the smoke has absolutely nowhere to go) and just sit there as people blow smoke in your face. And judging from your post, I don't think you'd be willing to do that.

I can understand the loss of interest in _____ parts, that does happen (although you have to be willing to let it happen which most people are not) but getting in trouble with the law? That's not a reason for why pot should be illegal. That's like saying "I think marijuana should be illegal because it's already illegal."

And they dumped friends who wouldn't smoke with them? Seems like they were just a poor person to begin with. Sorry.[/INDENT][/COLOR][/FONT][/QUOTE]That wasn't really my point but that doesn't matter and like the others you're still missing my point. Whether or not you agree with my reasoning to say no is still irrelevant. I've seen it do nothing but mess up people I know and others through school where I teach. And having someone who himself is a user attempt to tell me I'm wrong in thinking that just isn't going to cut it. That's not a reason for me to suddenly switch and be for making it legal.

Also, you missed the point about someone dumping a friend who wouldn't smoke with them. They got so caught up in wanting that fix that nothing else was important. Instead of thinking it was only their problem, consider that until they started smoking, they had never been like that. It's[I] oh so easy[/I] to think it was their problem instead of owning up to it could have been the substance they were abusing.

In the end, I stated why I would not support a movement to make it legal. Those reasons have not changed and I don't see that happening anytime soon since none of the arguments here come close to convincing me it's a good idea. I'm not actively moving to stop it, I'm saying if it came up I would vote no.

[Boo]

[quote name='Retribution'][font=Arial]And honestly, if someone stops caring about their schoolwork because they wanted to try weed, that’s their problem. Just as it’s the student’s own problem if they become an alcoholic and neglect schoolwork, the state should not have to look out for all our poor decisions and personal mistakes. Advocate responsibility and moderation, not bans and censorship for “the greater good.”[/font][/QUOTE][size=1]Yes, advocate responsibility, but don't let it be their own problem. It's also the job of the state to have as many people as possible functional in society. Someone who gets in trouble with drinking or drugs only ends up costing money and being useless for a big deal. So stating that "that's their problem" is not correct in anyway, but a ridiculous one.[/size]