Aliens!

[The13thMan]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy! ::claps hands enthusiastically:: This is going to be fun![/FONT]

[quote=Allamorph]What is she wrong about, if she never mentioned Creationism and you admit that she did not? The statement was simple: Evolution is a Theory, and unprovable. She did not say that Creationism was therefore right; obviously both are Theories, and both are unprovable. Your eagerness to launch a debate about anything has undone you there; you have pulled in an issue that was not brought up.

[/quote]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Ok... let me do this again, only slightly differently. Evolution > Any opposing theory. Surely "any opposing theory" is a category large enough so that whatever it was (s)he was thinking of (if anything) would be included. Bottom line, undebatable, is that evolution has by far the most scientific based evidence backing it. This, to me, means evolution is right and anyone saying it's wrong is wrong. Of course this completely ignores any sort of sensitivity towards religion which i would typically show, but when it comes down to it i think its wrong.

I realize i went off on a tangent there a bit, oh well.

Also, evolution may be unprovable in some sort of absolute sense, but it certainly is provable if you're willing to let go of that tiny amount of skepticism that you'd have to hold on to when presented with all of the overwhelming evidence supporting it.

-----

Ok, you all have forced me to abandon my speculation (at least on Otaku Boards) that life is likely in the universe because of the shear size of it. I, once again, admit to not knowing a lot about probability and statistics. This is why i do not want to debate it. I would not be able to without extensively researching it.

But... before i completely give it up i want to restate a previous point i made. There is a difference between a claim that is supposed to stand as factual and a speculation. Either one may be broken down with whatever evidence or logic you wish, but only the claim meant to stand as fact must be completely abandoned if logic and evidence dictates. The speculation may remain because its based upon subjective evidence and is subject to opinion. Of course a speculation can indeed be shot down if some new evidence is presented. In the case of aliens, if someone speculated that there were none and suddenly some appeared, obviously the speculation would be abandoned. But we're assuming constant logic and evidence in both situations here. I speculated that the universe is too vast for life not to exist other than our own. I will probably always hold on to this speculation.

Actually, i want to go in this just a bit further in an attempt to keep people from arguing this point. A claim that is meant to stand as fact would be something like: Aliens [B]do [/B]exist because the universe [B]is [/B]too vast. This can be taken down with logic quite easily. I'm not sure of the name of the logical fallacy, but the main idea is that just because the universe is big doesn't mean there has to be life. Now let's look at the speculation i have made and see how it's different. I said, "I [B]think [/B]aliens exist because of how large the universe is." There is no logical fallacy in this statement because i am not saying that aliens absolutely do exist because of the vastness of the universe, i am simply saying that i personally believe that it does. If you understand this then it's only a short hop to understanding why i didn't care for the "probability is so and so therefore you can't think so and so" argument. And only a short skip away from understanding why i thought being agnostic on the matter was silly, i was only asking for a speculation, no one was being tested on validity here. [/FONT]

[quote name='Allamorph']There is no colloquial definition of probability.[/quote]
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]I didn't think someone would argue this of all points. I think i'm going to use dictionary.com to help me out on this one. [/FONT]

[quote=Allamorph]A reaction between two chemicals in a balanced solution will always use all chemicals.

This statement's negative is very easy to prove; all you need is one trial where you have perfectly equitable amounts of both reactants and the actual yield does not match the theoretical yield. However, your line of thinking is almost correct: it is very easy to prove or disprove any hypothesis when either it or its opposing hypothesis are all-encompassing.

E.g.: "there is no life on another planet" is, as you said, very easy to disprove once, because the hypothesis is that there is no life at all, and one instance of life will instantly prove the statement wrong.[/quote]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Your example with the chemicals or whatever is way too vague. What sort of reaction are you talking about? I don't suppose it really matters. You're just nitpicking right here. ...I really don't feel the need to further explain myself here. We both get what i meant when i said it's hard to prove a negative. I just wanted to let you know that i didn't need your clarification. Though, as before, i appreciate the attempt. [/FONT]

[quote name='Allamorph']And yet you continually dismiss the opinions of those who do not wish to speculate? Nicely done. You wanted people's opinions, and when they expressed the opinion that they'd like some more information (ostensibly so that they would not waste their time forming a completely erroneous, premature, and biased opinion), you called it a non-opinion.[/quote]
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Did i call it a non-opinion? I don't think i did. But if you see somewhere where i did do this, please do quote it for me. I love it when i'm quoted.

I think what i did was state that their opinion was very agnostic and not one that i was looking for. I went on to say that even people with agnostic opinions typically have some sort of feeling one way or the other, which is what i was looking for. Of course, i could be wrong with some people, which is why i dropped it, until now... when you brought it back up.

Have you ever heard of confirmation bias? Basically its when a person notices only the positives (or negatives) of a certain event. This leads the person to think that the positives (or negatives) happen much more often relative to the other than they actually did. Why did i bring this up? Eh... i dunno... i'm sure whoever reads this can apply the concept to something somewhere. [/FONT]

[quote name='Allamorph']The polite version of this statement: "No, Rach, that's not quite what I meant." Such wording does not directly imply that Rach is stupid, but makes the situation ambiguous; either he didn't read it right, or you didn't say it right; both of which are equally possible. So while a disclaimer in your sig is all well and good, I'd suggest you work on your word choice, so people don't get the erroneous impression that you're being condescending—if you truly are not.[/quote]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Aaaaactually, i was trying to be a little bit of a jerk in that quote to Rach. I don't get along with the guy quite as well as i'd like to. I honestly think he's a fine human being... we just don't see eye to eye on many subjects. We've both exhibited some level of animosity towards one another, hopefully neither of us are too bothered by it anymore.

Let me go on to say that there are a number of times where i am indeed intentionally rude. This happens when a person calls me out and directly says that i'm wrong in what seems to be a disrespectful manner. I believe your post to me was a little bit...pissy. I have tried to respond accordingly. When a person calls me wrong or disagrees with me but is completely respectful about it then i try my best to respond in the same way. In those cases i really don't intend to come off sounding rude. I'd say that's about 80% of the time. Congrats to those that made it to the top 20. =D

By the way, i thought it was cute the way you said, "Fail. Breakdown:" over and over again. ;)

[quote name='James']In fact I think there are many organizations - including scientific bodies - that see Intelligent Design as something with potential. It is certainly not mutually exclusive to Evolution, that much is certain (in fact, the two go hand-in-hand quite well).[/quote]
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Ooo boy, i'm a little afraid to debate with you. I will try my best to be respectful... i prefer not to be banned. =D

I think you're a bit unclear here. What sort of potential does ID have with these organizations? Not mutually exclusive how so?

ID may very well have some potential in any form other than science. I personally am agnostic and don't believe in ID. Although, there was a time when i was christian and i did believe in creation in one form or another. Recalling back to my old frame of mind i think i would readily accept ID as some framing to my understanding of the origins of the universe. But even then i would not say ID is science.

I can see how they wouldn't be mutually exclusive, once again if ID is not considered as science. I can accpet ID as a way to explain the origin of the universe through religion. Then once the universe is created i would adopt evolution as a theory to explain the way things evolved.

To wrap it back into the original debate, i do think the discovery of aliens would have interesting implications on religion. But i don't think it will change many peoples' faith. I doubt it would change mine if i were christian.

Holy crap i wrote a lot! I need to get a life! Haha.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[James]

[quote]Ooo boy, i'm a little afraid to debate with you. I will try my best to be respectful... i prefer not to be banned. =D
[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]You're welcome to debate with me, but I will continue to make the point (to everyone) that discussions at OB must be kept polite.

Disagreements are fine (and natural), but I don't see a need for deliberate rudeness or any personal attacks. Let's keep away from that stuff, shall we?

I have edited your previous post in an attempt to keep it on topic (because I hate closing down discussions). I did indicate in my previous post that we are to keep to the subject at hand.[/font]

[quote]I think you're a bit unclear here. What sort of potential does ID have with these organizations? Not mutually exclusive how so? [/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Well, all you really have to do is run a search on ID. There are a number of scientists - including those who study evolution - who suggest that intelligent design is certainly worthy of research and exploration.[/font]

[quote]ID may very well have some potential in any form other than science. I personally am agnostic and don't believe in ID. Although, there was a time when i was christian and i did believe in creation in one form or another. Recalling back to my old frame of mind i think i would readily accept ID as some framing to my understanding of the origins of the universe. But even then i would not say ID is science. [/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]As I mentioned in my last post, I'm making a distinction between creationism and intelligent design.

It is possible to consider ID as simply being the idea that life and its evolution originates from a "designed" source.

I am not referring to anything in Genesis, which creationism is centered around. The Adam and Eve story (and the idea that the world is only so many thousand years old, that it is flat and held up on pillars, etc etc) is obviously a fallacy if taken literally.

So I'm not coming at this from a religious point of view, I am just saying that the "random evolution" versus "designed evolution" is really an open debate that people are having. Creationism in the strictest sense is no longer a real debate globally.[/font]

[quote] I can accpet ID as a way to explain the origin of the universe through religion. Then once the universe is created i would adopt evolution as a theory to explain the way things evolved. [/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I think your interpretation of what ID means is legitimate, because there are a lot of creationist groups within the U.S. who use this term as a way to masquerade a non-scientific position as something based on scientific study.

So, yes, if ID is considered synonymous with creationism then it falls into the same category.

What I am referring to, though, is the idea that the evolutionary process is the result of design. I personally don't really feel that this is necessarily true (I tend to think evolution relates far more to external environmental factors than deliberate design), but I [i]do[/i] think that deliberate design is worth pursuing for science.[/font]

[quote]To wrap it back into the original debate, i do think the discovery of aliens would have interesting implications on religion. But i don't think it will change many peoples' faith. I doubt it would change mine if i were christian.
[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Yeah there is an element of truth to this. I mean, despite what is [i]known[/i] about evolution, there are still people who aggressively oppose it and continue to say that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Those people will likely never change, even when imperical evidence is presented to them.

Anyway, yes, the whole point of raising this issue was to point out the way in which alien life (or the discovery thereof) would affect various existing theories. I'm not very inclined to actually debate these theories in isolation within this thread, because it will only become less and less relevant to the alien issue.

But I still think that a true alien discovery would cause a lot of people to reassess things and to take a fresh view of their philosophies on life.[/font]

[Guest Crimson Spider]

And so, the debate takes the course which I have seen before, and predicted it would happen. It ceases being about aliens, and the attention immediately shifts towards religion.

Now James, it has been a while since we have spoken (if ever directly), but it saddens me that some of the first things I hear are claims that indirectly state the invalidity of my position by peer pressure and the assumption that I do not exist. Case in point, the assumption that

[quote]snip...

but I see that as less relevant, because Creationism itself has pretty much been dismissed by any serious bodies throughout the world[/quote]

implies that I, someone who still holds to creationism, am not a "serious" body, in all of my evaluations, or that because there isn't an organization with a substantial enough presence in the view of the opposition (organizations do exist, mind you), that the people who support the idea have ceased walking the Earth. Though you are obviously trying to avoid "personal attacks", you haven't done the best job in removing any bias or discrimination. However, I will deal with your statements directly.


Something that I learned is that, within the Creationist Christian community, I cannot disprove the existence of extra-terrestrials to my fellow man. Though it is assumed by the majority that aliens do not exist, this is only from a gut-feeling and a general evaluation of the Bible. It is extrapolated, not expressly written.


The presence of absence of aliens does little with the validity of the creation, or of Christianity in general. What is being misunderstood is the emphasis around man and mankind. The opposition believe strongly that somehow, if there is a single-celled organism in some obscure corner of the galaxy, that there is no God (capitalized to emphasize a proper noun). Provisions, interpretations, and understandings from texts leave more than enough room for the presence of life, and even intelligent life. Hence, why I cannot disprove the existence of extraterrestrials.

In particular, the Theory of the Organosubstrate. This theory is that, in the original creation, microscopic organisms existed as part of the medium through which raw materials would be processed for much larger organisms. It even extends so far as to say that larger organisms exist as part of the environment for the suitability for greater beings (Man, in the case of Earth). The point of all this? The substrate can be placed onto other planets as a method to maintain compatibility and capability of being an inhabitable source in the future. The particular focus of this theory is Mars, the planet most likely to be inhabited.

The substrate is a theoretical distribution of bacteria and basic organisms across heavenly bodies in order to allow for other organisms to exist and "move in", and it does this by providing a means in which the raw materials on the planet can be converted into manageable resources. If any "life" is discovered on mars, it will quickly be attributed to the complex biomatrix of living systems, just as quickly as it would be attributed to abiogenesis from the opposition.

Nothing would change, since both models would predict and allow the same behavior. Finding extraterrestrial life would only be as detrimental to Christianity as the discovery that the Earth revolved around the Sun.


When dealing with intelligent life, you must not forget your roots. The first man to propose the existence of extra-terrestrials, though he was burned at the stake, did so from a scripture in the New Testament, which he interpreted as Jesus going to other places in which there are other great beings in God's image. Even today, there are many fundamental creationists who still have this view.

The uniqueness of Man in the in respect to the Earth is absolute, but in respect to the universe it is only implied. The discovery of life wouldn't change positions, but just the understanding that we currently have. Though I can only speak from a Christan Creationist view, and not from an Islamic Creationist, Hindu Creationist, or Neo Pagan Creationist.

[James]

[quote]I, someone who still holds to creationism, am not a "serious" body, in all of my evaluations, or that because there isn't an organization with a substantial enough presence in the view of the opposition (organizations do exist, mind you), that the people who support the idea have ceased walking the Earth. Though you are obviously trying to avoid "personal attacks", you haven't done the best job in removing any bias or discrimination. However, I will deal with your statements directly.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]My comments were not directed at you specifically, they were directed at pseudo-scientific "Creation Science" organizations primarily.

I am not really interested in getting into a debate about creationism itself here, for two reasons - firstly because my interest is purely in the empirical/scientific basis for it. It would be like trying to debate empirical aspects of the moon landing and whether or not it was a hoax; debating a logical fallacy has no real purpose.

And secondly, I don't really think that it is my job to convince anyone to believe differently than they presently do. Nor is it really the purpose of this thread (in fact, nobody in this thread can really debate about the existence of aliens because I think we'd all agree that we just don't know).

As a side note, it's not really a good idea to suggest that I'm being somehow biased or discriminatory when I'm only stating commonly-accepted facts. Even if you don't believe in what I'm saying, it is hypocritical to then go off on your own one-sided tangent after criticizing me for apparently doing so. Please take note of that.

So, for the thread itself...[/font]

[quote]he presence of absence of aliens does little with the validity of the creation, or of Christianity in general. What is being misunderstood is the emphasis around man and mankind. The opposition believe strongly that somehow, if there is a single-celled organism in some obscure corner of the galaxy, that there is no God (capitalized to emphasize a proper noun). Provisions, interpretations, and understandings from texts leave more than enough room for the presence of life, and even intelligent life. Hence, why I cannot disprove the existence of extraterrestrials.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]You do make one not-insignificant assumption here though (and I believe it is an incorrect one).

You state that the "opposition" (opposition to what, exactly?) believe that if a single cell organism exists on a planet other than Earth, that this disproves God.

Yet nobody here seems to be suggesting that. If you have gleaned that message from [i]my[/i] statements, then you have misinterpreted them.

My earlier point was simply that if we could prove the existence of extra-terrestrial life (something that has not yet occurred), it could have profound religious implications for many.

This does not mean that people would stop believing in God. It simply means that many people may reassess their thoughts on a variety of issues - it could be the way they view the Bible, or God, or even their general philosophy on life.

That was really all I was saying.

It isn't about proving or disproving God as such; that's a bit of a red-herring as far as this discussion goes. Having said that, I'm sure there are people who have a theological view on the concept of aliens, which is something you have illustrated in your post. Nothing wrong with that.

One final modding-related point about this thread though:[/font]

[quote]And so, the debate takes the course which I have seen before, and predicted it would happen. It ceases being about aliens, and the attention immediately shifts towards religion.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]It was always about aliens until your post. You have now attempted to make it about religion. And you've done so by asserting a position that I don't think anyone here is really subscribing to in the first place (my last post just clarified what I meant by "ID" to 13thman).

So, by all means, please continue to discuss your thoughts on aliens. But let's not make this a religion-dominated thread. I had thought my earlier comments about keeping things on-topic were pretty clear, but it is worth reiterating this point.[/font]

[Guest Crimson Spider]

I go to make an edit and add another article, and I find your actually online. Very well then. My post was going to be a very large article on the futility of an intelligent design movement, but I think the atmosphere as changed too much for me to post it up.


Now, the "opposition" was not in reference to anyone here personally, but towards the atmosphere that circles around where I have found these debates, as well as many of the members of my local scientific community. In particular, those who oppose anything relating to Christianity, which was implied in my post.

No doubt, the ideology of this has brushed by your ears more than once for how long you have been managing this forum (you still are managing the forum, right? I can't remember if you handed it over to someone). Similarly to the article on probability, it is more of something I should have to "clear up" rather than to make any profound statements to an individual.

Though I do agree that the discovery of life will make a substantial shift towards the theory of the Organosubstrate.


EDIT: I'm afraid that it is not me that brought religion into this. Let me direct your attention to post 36 of this thread:

[url]http://www.otakuboards.com/showpost.php?p=821789&postcount=36[/url]

Which was subsequently responded to in post 40 of this thread:

[url]http://www.otakuboards.com/showpost.php?p=821801&postcount=40[/url]

Which had it's response before my post was acknowledged.



EDIT: Very well, if you want to keep the topic, I'll try to add a little something on aliens in every post.


Now, the greatest issue with making any conjectures is the fact that we don't know. If we have a stone, or a tree, we actually have something that we can base our ideas off of. When talking about aliens, we have nothing to base our ideas off of. Were the concept not so popular, it would be no different than making up some notion about the universe, and then contemplating that made up notion.

[James]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Okay, no worries. I don't think anything in this thread has related to opposition of Christianity - so no need to worry about that. I just think we have been having a frank discussion about the potential implications of alien life in general.

Anyway, on to a new point. I was thinking about this thread and I realized that we've spent so much time talking about whether or not aliens actually exist.

If you think about aliens in popular culture, there seems to be a lot of stuff related to them being aggressive or war-like. Is that just a reflection on us?

I almost think that if aliens contacted us (should they be sufficiently advanced), they would probably be like nothing we can imagine. And if they had a particular agenda, I think it would surely have to be peaceful - or at least I think there'd be a bigger chance of that.

What do you guys think?[/font]

[Guest Crimson Spider]

I always attributed aliens being aggressive as part of the human psyche that fears enemies that are unknown. Like Nictophobia. It isn't actually the dark that is feared, but what could be dwelling within it.

Provides an enemy that everyone can unite against, too. If you have a movie like Rambo, then you are pitting up against an enemy that has a personal characteristic. But when you are dealing with some unnamed monster or alien race, then you are dealing with an enemy that has no personal attachment. This provides a realm in which the artist can freely make us perceive the aliens in any light chosen, from innocent and helpful aliens like E.T., to horrible man eating monstrosities from Alien. Until popularized by hollywood, extraterrestrials had no connotations attached to them.

We do have our share of peaceful aliens. Star Trek and Star Wars are loaded with them. There are a couple of other movies and books where the aliens are benign or peaceful, so aliens are more or less a medium for an artist to make a statement.


Now, the important thing to wonder about when receiving alien contact is belief. No, I'm not talking about religion, but about other ideas, such as maintaining ecosystems, or imperialism. Humanity likes to humanize things around us, from inanimate objects to animals. Same with aliens: we hope that we would encounter a race that acknowledges the needs to preserve the environment and to give respect to other life. But, we could also encounter something similar to the Ender series, or something like Independence Day; a creature that has driven itself to great lengths by motivations we consider less than acceptable.

Though I do think it is more likely that an alien race will develop technology and determination great enough to break through the physical prison by compassion, logic, and pursuit of a greater good. Though capitalism and survival of the fittest do breed interesting innovation.

[Nomurah!]

[SIZE="1"][COLOR="HotPink"]Jesus. Get off it. Religion and Aliens don't have anything to do with each other, and even so, if God does exist, then therefore, he would've had a hand in making the other galaxies, planets, and beings among them. There is nothing in the Christian religion that states anything against Aliens, or that we're the only beings God has created. If the Christian God does exist, that is.

I believe Aliens have their own way of mating. That's all I'll say on the subject of sex. And I also think that most of the species would probably be all male, or all female. Perhaps most aliens, however, are like that of bacteria, and amoeba. Ones we can't see because they're so small. However, these wouldn't have much of chance getting to Earth, now would they? I feel that most Aliens have a much higher body temperature than us, and therefore, might die of heat stroke if they attempted to get closer to Earth. This would explain if aliens could be possibly living in the ice moons near the outer planets, and the water contained inside of them.

Other than that. This all sounds like crazy talk to me, ha.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[The13thMan]

[quote name='James']Well, all you really have to do is run a search on ID. There are a number of scientists - including those who study evolution - who suggest that intelligent design is certainly worthy of research and exploration.[/quote]
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]I've actually heard a good deal about ID and what scientists generally think of it. I get the impression that any scientists that support research of ID on a scientific platform are trying to either be politically accurate or are quacks. [/FONT]

[quote name='James']So I'm not coming at this from a religious point of view, I am just saying that the "random evolution" versus "designed evolution" is really an open debate that people are having. Creationism in the strictest sense is no longer a real debate globally.[/quote]
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]I see ID as just a disguise for creationists to teach creation using faulty science. Certainly not all proponents of ID try to force it as a science and take it purely as a religion. I have no beef with them. It's only the ones that try to force ID as science that i disagree with. [/FONT]

[quote name='James']What I am referring to, though, is the idea that the evolutionary process is the result of design. I personally don't really feel that this is necessarily true (I tend to think evolution relates far more to external environmental factors than deliberate design), but I do think that deliberate design is worth pursuing for science.[/quote]
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]I think a lot of people have the opinion that ID should be looked into further by mainstream science. If ID were a legitimate scientific theory i would support this notion, but it is not. I have a question that will hopefully shed a bit of light on it either for me or you depending on whether you can give a good answer or not. How do you scientifically test ID? [/FONT]

[quote name='James']But I still think that a true alien discovery would cause a lot of people to reassess things and to take a fresh view of their philosophies on life.[/quote]
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]I agree.

Now i'll try to take James's lead and get back on topic.[/FONT]

[quote name='James']If you think about aliens in popular culture, there seems to be a lot of stuff related to them being aggressive or war-like. Is that just a reflection on us?[/quote]
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]It's an interesting question. I actually would have to say that it's a reflection on us. Since we don't know any aliens personally i don't see any way for those visions of hostile aliens to not be a reflection back on us. [/FONT]
[quote name='Crimson Spider']But, we could also encounter something similar to the Ender series, or something like Independence Day; a creature that has driven itself to great lengths by motivations we consider less than acceptable.[/quote]
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]The motivation of the alien race in the Ender series wasn't anything we considered unacceptable. The hive queen did not know she was killing sentient life and also didn't realize the individuality of human beings. She was just trying to clear some land so she could populate a new planet. While the motivation was acceptable the actual action of killing as many as she did was not acceptable. Thats why the humans went to war with the buggers in the book. Later on in the series the motivation of the hive queen was made clear to everybody. At that point people started to hate Ender for his xenocide. As for Independence Day i think you were dead on.
[/FONT]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Whoa, Mann'][SIZE="1"][COLOR="HotPink"]Jesus. Get off it. Religion and Aliens don't have anything to do with each other[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I beg to differ.

[center][IMG]http://zeitgeistglee.250free.com/SpacePope.jpg[/IMG]

and

[IMG]http://zeitgeistglee.250free.com/LobsterJesus.jpg[/IMG][/center]

Apologies for interrupting the fascinating discourse between James and 13th, I simply felt those had to be added. :p[/SIZE]

[James]

[quote]There is nothing in the Christian religion that states anything against Aliens, or that we're the only beings God has created. If the Christian God does exist, that is.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I don't think you know your Bible very well, in that case. Dismissing the relevance of faith when it comes to discovering alien life seems very short-sighted to me. Faith deals with existence and the nature of life itself. So it is far from trivial in this discussion.

Anyway I agree with you that most aliens are probably not sophisticated enough to travel to Earth anyway. It's probably likely that most alien life is simpler than human beings (although maybe [i]we[/i] are the simplest form - [i]aha![/i] :catgirl:)

As far as abductions and stuff go, I do side with most people here in that I really doubt they've ever happened.

I think when some people talk about being probed they're actually recalling a drunken night in a sleazy motel, rather than the interior of a space ship.[/font]

[Raiha]

[quote name='James']I think when some people talk about being probed they're actually recalling a drunken night in a sleazy motel, rather than the interior of a space ship.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]*snerk*

Well it's possible that other life may exist, but drawing on what I remember from my Astronomy courses, it'd probably be very different from ours. It's entirely possible that non carbon based life forms exist on other planets in other solar systems and not in our little unfashionable end of the Milky Way.

Hypothetically they would be gas based, or enormous jellyfish style creatures. Personally I'd welcome those. I think I saw them in a Chronicles of Riddick comic...[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='James'][font=franklin gothic medium]I think when some people talk about being probed they're actually recalling a drunken night in a sleazy motel, rather than the interior of a space ship.[/font][/QUOTE]There's also the possibility of having woken up from a semi-lucid dream. Thus the feeling as if what they just saw/experianced is completely real, especially if they aren't familiar with lucid dreamnig in the first place.

Plus the inability to move for several minutes is explained by the transition from REM sleep straight to being awake. That can take a few minutes to actually pass.

You know, for those people who claim to have been abducted and so forth and yet [I]don't actually drink[/I]. Saying someone had to have been drunk doesn't really address it very well. =P[/COLOR]

[Raiha]

[quote name='Indi'][COLOR="Indigo"]You know, for those people who claim to have been abducted and so forth and yet [I]don't actually drink[/I]. Saying someone had to have been drunk doesn't really address it very well. =P[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Well those people tend to be schizophrenic or manic depressive or some other kind of insanity.

It's quite tragic. But I've heard people on talk shoes talking about it and they all say the same thing. It's very disturbing actually because they're all completely assured that it's happened to them. And they always have friends who are 'completely normal but after it happened to them' blah blah blah. They're why we call them the 'tinfoil hat club.' The tinfoil keeps the aliens from READING THEIR MINDS![/FONT][/COLOR]

[James]

[quote]Saying someone had to have been drunk doesn't really address it very well. =P[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Oh yeah, you're right. I guess I just didn't want to outright say "drunk, hallucinating, attention seeking, etc". Maybe it's mushrooms and not beer that fuel these stories. Who knows.

In all seriousness though, I am sure that people actually see things that are technically UFOs (i.e. unidentified objects...that fly).

I know I've seen weird lights and things in the sky at times that seem totally impossible to explain.

I guess the main point though is that I don't automatically attribute those phenomenon to alien life/spacecraft. To me that's a major jump in logic, ignoring many more plausible possibilities along the way.[/font]

[The13thMan]

[quote name='James']I guess the main point though is that I don't automatically attribute those phenomenon to alien life/spacecraft. To me that's a major jump in logic, ignoring many more plausible possibilities along the way.[/quote]
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]That's a good example of Occam's Razor. Funny thing is i saw it misused on tv last night. It was on a show called Fringe. This guy was drawing scenes of accidents, murders, attacks, or whatever before they happened. Then some old half looney scientist guy comes up and recites occam's razor. At this point he concludes that the man is psychic. Assuming a supernatural phenomenon before eliminating any natural cause is a violation of Occam's Razor. I winced when i heard the guy say that...

The lucid dreaming thing is pretty interesting. Isn't there a special name for the state when you can't move your body? I also didn't realize most people that that happened to were mentally unstable. Of all the times i heard about it i never got the impression that it only happened to wackos. Quite the contrary, actually, my impressions was that it happened to normal people maybe under stress. Eh, but i've only ever heard other people talk about it.[/FONT]

[Guest Crimson Spider]

Sleep Paralysis. The state where you can't move is called sleep paralysis.

The theory is that your body shuts down before your brain fully shuts down, causing you to enter into a numb like state where you are aware of your surroundings, but you cannot do a thing about it. You also get the feeling that there is someone or something near you, or that you are not alone. I've actually experienced this, and it was at a time when I had a bad case of head lice. Oh, the itching was so bad, and I could not move to scratch it. It was like torture.

Anyway, Sleep Paralysis has been probably the cause for a number of "supernatural" phenomena in the past. A particular one to note are the Incubus and the Succubus, a pair of demons that would attack you in the middle of the night. The explanations for this unusual state are tied to the culture of the area.

[The13thMan]

[quote name='Crimson Spider']Sleep Paralysis. The state where you can't move is called sleep paralysis.

The theory is that your body shuts down before your brain fully shuts down, causing you to enter into a numb like state where you are aware of your surroundings, but you cannot do a thing about it. You also get the feeling that there is someone or something near you, or that you are not alone. I've actually experienced this, and it was at a time when I had a bad case of head lice. Oh, the itching was so bad, and I could not move to scratch it. It was like torture.

Anyway, Sleep Paralysis has been probably the cause for a number of "supernatural" phenomena in the past. A particular one to note are the Incubus and the Succubus, a pair of demons that would attack you in the middle of the night. The explanations for this unusual state are tied to the culture of the area.[/QUOTE]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]And would you say sleep paralysis can happen to any group of people or does it specifically happen more to a certain type of person, say, a mentally unstable one?

When i first heard about this i instantly thought of a number of stories where people claim they were abducted. I doubt they knew about sleep paralysis. I don't think it's a very well known phenomenon. [/FONT]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='The13thMan'][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]And would you say sleep paralysis can happen to any group of people or does it specifically happen more to a certain type of person, say, a mentally unstable one?

When i first heard about this i instantly thought of a number of stories where people claim they were abducted. I doubt they knew about sleep paralysis. I don't think it's a very well known phenomenon. [/FONT][/QUOTE]It can happen to anyone, technically, everyone experiences a form of it every single time they sleep. Instead of going full out here, take a moment to read this since it does cover the basics, even if it's wiki entry: [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis"][U]Sleep paralysis[/U][/URL]

I will say this, the notion that someone has to have something [I]wrong[/I] with them for this to happen is just that, a notion, and not accurate. I've had it happen a few times myself actually, only I knew what was going on so I never got any silly ideas about being abducted or anything else in my mind. =P[/COLOR]

[The13thMan]

[quote name='Indi'][COLOR="Indigo"]It can happen to anyone, technically, everyone experiences a form of it every single time they sleep. Instead of going full out here, take a moment to read this since it does cover the basics, even if it's wiki entry: [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis"][U]Sleep paralysis[/U][/URL]

[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]I was actually asking this question because of what Raiha had said about the type of people that this happens to. [/FONT]
[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Well those people tend to be schizophrenic or manic depressive or some other kind of insanity.

[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Thanks for clearing it up.

I would actually like to experience this. Hopefully it would be less frightening for a person who is fully aware of it, but i don't know if that's true or not. I once experienced something similar. I woke up or thought i did and thought i saw one of my roommates just standing there. It was eerie but very interesting. Of course... there is the possibility that it actually happened and he was just watching me. 0_o[/FONT]

[mangamaniack21]

I believe in the crazy theory of "we're not alone in the universe"
because it made me think about how many planets there are in other universes, and the possiblity of all the alien "spottings" that have either happened/ were made up.
are all those people nuts? or is there just a bunch of pranks? or do aliens really exsist?
perhaps the aliens are peaceful, or they would've launched an attack on the earth already, or silenetly infiltrated like in those sci-fi films where they try to take over human bodies.
mabey they already are here, but are tiny microrganisms that we haven't recongnised yet. or possibly, they used cloaking deviced. (this sounds pretty crazy though, if they are in exsistance i think they are very far away and either do not reconise out planet or choose not to get involved).

^^;.

[DeLarge]

[SIZE=1]I'm going to throw in my thoughts here for a laugh.

I have a very limited understanding of science - generally in science class at school I spent the lesson drawing faces on all the sperm in the section about the human reproductive system. Most of my knowledge of space and other related bits of science are drawn from reading, watching and thinking about too much sci-fi.

So although I have no scientific backing for this, I do believe that there is some form of life out there in the universe. However, I think that is because it is scary and isolating to think that we are alone in this big wide universe - we cling on to thoughts of aliens and fantastic worlds somewhere out there in the depths of space so we don't have to confront the possibility that there is nothing out there except us.

I do not believe, however, that aliens have ever visited Earth. There are so many planets, so many stars, so many solar systems out there that it is unlikely that these creatures, if they exist, have ever visited our little backwater planet. Besides, if you look at some of the people who claim to have been abducted, they are quite clearly out to grab as much attention as they can off the back of some half-baked fable they dreamt up one night on the dirt farm.

Questions are thrown up about aliens abducting people and never coming back - look at the people they abduct. If you picked up toothless Jiminy-Billy-Bob from the middle of nowhere and assumed that was the height of evolution on this planet then you'd never come back either.

We as a species tend to build up our own importance in the universe - truth is, even if there are other civilisations out there, we are as insignificant to them as the plankton in the sea is to us. To my mind, there's about as much point looking for the Lost City of Atlantis as there is to scouring the skies for signs of aliens, but opinions are never going to deter people. No matter what other people think, there are always going to be those who spend (read: waste) their lives looking for aliens, so you might as well leave them to it.
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