Sexuality: What's right or wrong?

[Vicky]

[quote name='Calypso'][COLOR="Sienna"]To Vicky: Where so?
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Leviticus 25:44-46 (NIV) : "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Clurr'][FONT="Arial"]
Ah, thanks. At least in some places the existence is same-sex marriage is merely a matter of semantics.

I'll admit, I have no desire to ever get married myself. This hinders my ability to understand why anyone else would want to. But if they want to, then there is not one good reason why they shouldn't be able to.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

I'm not positive if it's all the rights or not, so there is still that margin that marriage provides all the rights while civil unions only provide some.

Someone want to check me on that? :animeswea

[Claire]

[quote name='Calypso'][COLOR="Sienna"]To Indi: You are right, terribly sorry. I just thought Columbus came here under Christianity, gotta brush up on my history.........:animeswea[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Arial"]Columbus set sail with the intentions of uncovering a direct route from Spain to India in order to improve trade. He couldn't do it because there was a giant land mass in the way. His goal was purely economical and had no religious basis whatsoever.

[quote name='TimeChaser']I'm not positive if it's all the rights or not, so there is still that margin that marriage provides all the rights while civil unions only provide some.[/quote]

I found an excellent website: [url]http://www.yffn.org/admin/spi/marriagevsunion.html[/url]

The only states allowing civil unions are Vermont (which strikes me as odd, yet impressive, as there's an actual law against denying the existence of God there) and California. This means these are the only states that will recognize a civil union. If a couple moved elsewhere and became residents of that state, they would no longer be a union.

This makes me sad. :([/FONT]

[Lunar]

[quote name='Vicky']Leviticus 25:44-46 (NIV) : "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."[/QUOTE]


[COLOR="Sienna"]
Ah, okay then. Read that part. However,[/COLOR]
[QUOTE][B]Leviticus 39 states[/B][B]:[/B]
And if one of your brethren who dwells by you becomes poor and[U] [B]sells himself to you[/B][/U] you shall not compel him to serve as a slave. [/QUOTE]
[COLOR="Sienna"]
You see, they weren't forced to be slaves, they sold themselves. That's completely different. [/COLOR]

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Calypso'][COLOR="Sienna"]To Indi: You are right, terribly sorry. I just thought Columbus came here under Christianity, gotta brush up on my history.........:animeswea

So to all of you guys, what would you say this nation is based on? Christianity mixed with something else?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I wouldn't use Columbus as a good example. The people who followed him not only came here to satisfy greed, but also spread Christianity to people they deemed "savages" by any means necessary, usually unpleasant means.

The intent of the Founding Fathers was a country of religious freedom and tolerance. Everyone has the right to believe what they want, but any one view doesn't have political justification over the others. Religion and the passing of law are meant to be separate, unlike England which was a Church State where government and religion were intertwined.

[Vicky]

[quote name='Calypso'][COLOR="Sienna"]
Ah, okay then. Read that part. However,[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Damn quote doesn't show up inside a quote...

Anyway, it's a fine example of a contradiction. And even if it isn't taken as contradictory, my point still stands: homosexuality is spoken of in the very same text, yet slavery is an exception. As is eating all these animals you're not supposed to eat - why are there not religious zealots outside Japanese Sushi bars? Why are there not religious people picketing outside farms who produce pork?

Because homosexuality is so much easier to dislike as there's a name to the face of 'evil'. Unless you can give me another reason, then I applaude you, or anyone, to do so.

What makes homosexuality so different from eating pork?

Remember all sins are equal.[/size]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Calypso'][COLOR="Sienna"]You see, they weren't forced to be slaves, they sold themselves. That's completely different. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]My interpretation was that if another Israelite ("brethren") wanted to sell himself into slavery, it was [i]not to be permitted[/i] ("not compel him to serve").

This does not prohibit the enslavement of foreigners, however.[/font]

[Lunar]

[quote name='Vicky'][SIZE=1]Damn quote doesn't show up inside a quote...

Anyway, it's a fine example of a contradiction. And even if it isn't taken as contradictory, my point still stands: homosexuality is spoken of in the very same text, yet slavery is an exception. As is eating all these animals you're not supposed to eat - why are there not religious zealots outside Japanese Sushi bars? Why are there not religious people picketing outside farms who produce pork?

Because homosexuality is so much easier to dislike as there's a name to the face of 'evil'. Unless you can give me another reason, then I applaude you, or anyone, to do so.

What makes homosexuality so different from eating pork?

Remember all sins are equal.[/size][/QUOTE]


[COLOR="Sienna"]What's in Japanese Sushi bars? I thought sushi was made of raw fish........whether you're relegious or not, you're going to have to pay the price for either sin you do. Pigs eat well-anything. If you think about where the pork comes from [I]while[/I] you're eating it, it'd be easier for you to dislike it. same thing with homosexuality.
To Retribution: I thought the saying "not to compel him to serve" meant not to make him serve. Since compel means to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly. He can leave whenever he want with what he earned. So with foreigners, it's wrong because you made them do it. [/COLOR]

[Vicky]

[quote name='Calypso'][COLOR="Sienna"]What's in Japanese Sushi bars? I thought sushi was made of raw fish........whether you're relegious or not, you're going to have to pay the price for either sin you do. Pigs eat well-anything. If you think about where the pork comes from [I]while[/I] you're eating it, it'd be easier for you to dislike it. same thing with homosexuality.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Avoiding the question (but the answer is that you can find shrimp and all sorts of nasty sinful things in a sushi bar).

Why are there not riots and picketing over the other sins such as the food laws? Why am I not allowed to have my own salves, as the bible dictates, if I'm not allowed to be homosexual, as the bible dictates?[/size]

[Lunar]

[quote name='Vicky'][SIZE=1]Avoiding the question (but the answer is that you can find shrimp and all sorts of nasty sinful things in a sushi bar).

Why are there not riots and picketing over the other sins such as the food laws? [B]Why am I not allowed to have my own salves, as the bible dictates, if I'm not allowed to be homosexual, as the bible dictates[/B]?[/size][/QUOTE]
[COLOR="Sienna"]
I'm not understanding you there.:confused:[/COLOR]

[Claire]

[quote name='Vicky'][SIZE=1]Anyway, it's a fine example of a contradiction. And even if it isn't taken as contradictory, my point still stands: homosexuality is spoken of in the very same text, yet slavery is an exception. As is eating all these animals you're not supposed to eat - why are there not religious zealots outside Japanese Sushi bars? Why are there not religious people picketing outside farms who produce pork?

Because homosexuality is so much easier to dislike as there's a name to the face of 'evil'. Unless you can give me another reason, then I applaude you, or anyone, to do so.

What makes homosexuality so different from eating pork?

[B]Remember all sins are equal.[/B][/size][/QUOTE]

[font=arial]This is the key to one of my points, which I feel is going ignored or miscomprehended.

I would like to now offer a musical interlude. Ahem:

[I]I married in the sun
Against the stone of buildings built before you and I were born
Into my heart confusion grows against
The muscles fought so long
To control against the pull of one magnet to another

Now we look up in
Into the eyes of bullies breaking backs
They seem so very tough
They seem so very scared of us

I look into the mirror for evil that just does not exist
I don't see what they see.

Try to control the pull of one magnet to another.[/I]

Also, I would urge anyone who is against gay marriage to read the website I posted a little while ago ([URL="http://www.yffn.org/admin/spi/marriagevsunion.html"][U]Click here![/U][/URL]). It makes perfect sense.[/font]

[Vicky]

[size=1]I'm not allowed to be homosexual because the Bible says so.

In accordance to the Bible, slavery is fine and I want my own slaves. But, tell this to the majority of Christians and they'll be rather shocked and say "well, that's wrong!". Yet my sexuality comes as another shock, "well, that's wrong!".

Also, you're talking about laws that were intended for the Israelites here. There are even Jewish people who say that Gay Jews are allowed to adopt because it's in occurrence with one of their commandments. If Christianity is following Israelite's law and guidance then they should follow it all - you're not allowed to mix clothing and do all these odd kind of stuff.

It's funny, you see, as Jewish people follow Leviticus (well Orthodox, anyway) to the letter but they do not condemn others, nor force it down anyone's throat, nor protest, or probably even mention it to you. They never say it is wrong, either, because Jewish people are in the understanding that it is [i]guidance[/i]. Christianity rejects the majority of Jewish law except this one - and then proceed on the basis that it's wrong.

[B]Edit: I wasn't ignoring your post Clurr, my post was actually inspired by yours, I just forgot to mention that, as it's rather late in the night over in Jolly Ol' England. ^_^;;[/b][/size]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Calypso'][COLOR="Sienna"]I thought the saying "not to compel him to serve" meant not to make him serve. Since compel means to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly. He can leave whenever he want with what he earned. So with foreigners, it's wrong because you made them do it. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]No, this is a specific instance in which an impoverished Israelite would try to sell himself into slavery -- this is to be prohibited from happening. This is not supposed to be a way to acquire slaves, nor was this normal -- it would seem that slaves were normally foreigners (especially if you look at the preceding verses).

The point is that the Bible has all sorts of ridiculous rules in it, so why do you choose specifically to obey the one that says "gays are an abomination"?

[QUOTE=Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (KJV)][B]If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father[/B], or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

[B]And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die[/B]: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.[/QUOTE]

Or how about...

[quote name='Leviticus 20:9 NLT][B]All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.[/B'] They are guilty of a capital offense.[/quote]

Sounds like a plan.[/font]

[Nomurah!]

[quote name='Calypso'][COLOR="Sienna"]What's in Japanese Sushi bars? I thought sushi was made of raw fish........whether you're relegious or not, you're going to have to pay the price for either sin you do. Pigs eat well-anything. If you think about where the pork comes from [I]while[/I] you're eating it, it'd be easier for you to dislike it. same thing with homosexuality.
To Retribution: I thought the saying "not to compel him to serve" meant not to make him serve. Since compel means to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly. He can leave whenever he want with what he earned. So with foreigners, it's wrong because you made them do it. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"][COLOR="HotPink"]Babies are born sinners. How will they pay the price? People that are homosexual are sinning too, apparentally. And so is the rest of the world, so why is this any different? In fact, we're all sinners, according to the logic you've displayed. So technically, I'm in the same boat as gays, even killers. But so are you. We are no different from homosexual people. We all have our "sins", therefore we have no right to call out something so personal, such as homosexuality. Homosexuality itself is not killing anyone. It's not raping people. It's not robbing banks. It's just sexuality.

[I]You[/I] have no right to call out homosexuality. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Lunar]

[COLOR="Sienna"]To [B]Retribution[/B] and [B]Whoa, Mann: [/B]I'm not ignoring the fact that there are [I]many [/I] other sins out there. I'm just replying to the main point of this thread. It's about sexuality. If there was one about being disrespectful to my parents, I would be debating in that one, too.If there was one about any of the others sins, I would debating there, too. I can focus on something else if you want, but I wanna stay on topic.:catgirl: [/COLOR]

[Claire]

[quote name='Calypso'][COLOR="Sienna"]To [B]Retribution[/B] and [B]Whoa, Mann: [/B]I'm not ignoring the fact that there are [I]many [/I] other sins out there. I'm just replying to the main point of this thread. It's about sexuality. If there was one about being disrespectful to my parents, I would be debating in that one, too.If there was one about any of the others sins, I would debating there, too. I can focus on something else if you want, but I wanna stay on topic.:catgirl: [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Arial"]Chances are you would not be using the Bible as support for your argument for a debate about being disrespectful to parents. Retri just brought several verses in which the Bible gives parents the right to kill their children for disrespect to our attention.

How do you feel about that?[/FONT]

[Vicky]

[quote name='Calypso'][COLOR="Sienna"]To [B]Retribution[/B] and [B]Whoa, Mann: [/B]I'm not ignoring the fact that there are [I]many [/I] other sins out there. I'm just replying to the main point of this thread. It's about sexuality. If there was one about being disrespectful to my parents, I would be debating in that one, too.If there was one about any of the others sins, I would debating there, too. I can focus on something else if you want, but I wanna stay on topic.:catgirl: [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[size=1]I think you missed their point. I think what they're saying is, especially clear in Retri's post, is why some sins are ignored and the homosexuality rule is rigorously obeyed. Are you wearing mixed fabrics right now? That's a sin. You are, therefore, as bad as homosexuals.

And that question has been asked a million times in this thread, but never answered. A 'I'm not sure' would surely suffice =p.[/size]

[Nomurah!]

[quote name='Calypso'][COLOR="Sienna"]To [B]Retribution[/B] and [B]Whoa, Mann: [/B]I'm not ignoring the fact that there are [I]many [/I] other sins out there. I'm just replying to the main point of this thread. It's about sexuality. If there was one about being disrespectful to my parents, I would be debating in that one, too.If there was one about any of the others sins, I would debating there, too. I can focus on something else if you want, but I wanna stay on topic.:catgirl: [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"][COLOR="HotPink"]Ah yes, I can see it now. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

"[COLOR="Sienna"]America was based off Christianity, so not honoring your father or mother is a sin, an all sins must be accounted for, because this is America.[/COLOR]"

[Allamorph]

[QUOTE=Clurr][FONT="Arial"]I've been wanting to go against this argument with one of my own for a while.

Biologically, humans are not intended to mate with others of the same sex. Science can't disprove this.

With that logic, eating meat must also be a sin.[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]
[FONT=Arial]Wow, and here I was just pointing out that arguing from a religious standpoint was not a good idea. :animesmil So keep in mind this next bit has little to do with sexuality at all.

It's also a purely Christian argument. You all take it with a grain of salt if you need to. (^_^)

If you read the first few chapters of Genesis, you'll find that humans originally did [I]not[/I] eat meat; and it was only after God slaughtered the first animals to clothe Adam and Eve that we as humans began to eat meat. The 'killing-for-clothes' was symbolic: to sin is to flaunt the word of the one who created us, and therefore to essentially forfeit our right to live (since we're basically claiming that we can do things without Him, including being created). So then, since death is required, the only substitution can be some living thing that is innocent . . . and animals are the closest bet, since they are incapable of either sinning [I]or[/I] being perfect.

Any further on that subject goes into a blather about the ultimate sacrifice, which isn't needed here. Suffice to say that eating the flesh of a dead animal should remind us that we are using an innocent being to sustain our own lives. (Again, from a Christian standpoint. You don't believe this, that's cool; I'm not gonna shove it down your throat.)




And good gosh, but this thread blew up while I was gone! (I blame [COLOR="DarkRed"]Lunar[/COLOR]. :p) I'll reply later if I need to after I catch up.

[B]Edit:[/B] And [COLOR="DarkRed"]WH[/COLOR], stop trying to be cool and put a sock in it.[/FONT]

[Lunar]

[quote name='Clurr'][FONT="Arial"]Chances are you would not be using the Bible as support for your argument for a debate about being disrespectful to parents. Retri just brought several verses in which the Bible gives parents the right to kill their children for disrespect to our attention.

How do you feel about that?[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Sienna"]:animedepr Sucks. Really, sucks. However, is there not another verse that says "spare the rod, spoil the child"?
Hm. That verse that Retri quoted from the early Old Testement. Spare the rod, spoil the child is in Proverbs, later in the Old Testement. Maybe you're right, some things do change................
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that wearing mixed fabrics is a sin........I think. I'm treating my sins as hardly as I would homosexuality. [/COLOR]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Calypso][COLOR="Sienna"']:animedepr Sucks. Really, sucks. However, is there not another verse that says "spare the rod, spoil the child"?[/COLOR][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Yes. That verse means that to refrain from punishment is to cause your kid to turn out rotten.

Still doesn't help [I]you[/I] any. :p[/FONT]

[Claire]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]Yes. That verse means that to refrain from punishment is to cause your kid to turn out rotten.

Still doesn't help [I]you[/I] any. :p[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Arial"]If the Bible wasn't open to interpretation, there's a good chance that none of us would be here right now!

(Assuming that people like Martin Luther and John Calvin would have just followed the rules).[/FONT]

[Lunar]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]Yes. That verse means that to refrain from punishment is to cause your kid to turn out rotten.

Still doesn't help [I]you[/I] any. :p[/FONT][/QUOTE]
[COLOR="Sienna"]
Meh....................................you're just mean, Allamorph. That is, if I understood you right, what do you mean? By the way, I just changed my username to Calypso. I thought you meant someone else. :animeswea
To Clurr: Almost all of the stuff in the Bible wasn't meant to be taken literally.[/COLOR]

[Claire]

[quote name='Calypso'][COLOR="Sienna"]To Clurr: Almost all of the stuff in the Bible wasn't meant to be taken literally.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Arial"]As taught by the leaders of your denomination. But how can we know which words are literal and which are figurative? I'm not aware of any human being on this earth who has the divine right to decide what parts of the Bible are to be followed to the letter, and which are no longer relevant.

You're African American, right? And a female. You more than anyone should be able to understand the desire for equal rights. Forty years ago, you would have not had them.[/FONT]

[Lunar]

[quote name='Clurr'][FONT="Arial"]As taught by the leaders of your denomination. But how can we know which words are literal and which are figurative? I'm not aware of any human being on this earth who has the divine right to decide what parts of the Bible are to be followed to the letter, and which are no longer relevant.

You're African American, right? And a female. You more than anyone should be able to understand the desire for equal rights. Forty years ago, you would have not had them.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Sienna"]
Well, it's kinda common sense, actually. You can talk to God and [I]ask[/I] God which is to be taken literally and figuratively, isn't that awesome?:catgirl: I understand the desire for equal rights more than you would know..............however, I don't mind homosexuals getting married. It's fine, but it's wrong. I thought I said that twice before in this thread. You can do what you want, although it's wrong. Isn't it wonderful how God doesn't require you to do what's right and you can do whatever you want?:catgirl:[/COLOR]