Conflict in the Middle East

[Esther]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Today I was invited to dinner with my husband's good friend and his wife. It was inevitable that politics would soon take over the conversation, and when it did we quickly got to talking about the conflict in the Middle East. Being the only one who supported both wars in the Middle East, I was left to fend for myself against 3 extremely liberal people (my husband and I don't agree on 99% of anything political -- I guess opposites do attract, heehee). I just got home and I'm still a little fired up from it all; so, I'm deciding it to bring the subject up to all of you.

What are your views on the United States' involvement in the Middle East? Do you support or are you against the two wars?

I'm interested to see what you guys think. :][/FONT]

[TimeChaser]

I definitely think something should be done to combat terrorist groups, but an open military war is not the way to do it, as we are seeing first-hand

The terrorist groups need to be thought of as an international criminal conspiracy. It would take a coordinated global intelligence/policing effort to deal with them.

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Bomb the excrement out of every country except for Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, and Israel and then go about our business is my plan.

Iran has a people ready for revolution but afraid of being mowed down with machine guns and tactile nuclear devices. The Palestinians are a grossly misled people that are the virtual Muslim lepers of the world which is why no other country wants them for anything except cannon fodder for Israli missiles so they can be trotted out as an example of why Israel should die. Saudi Arabia can burn for all I care after the way they've treated the women of the land. Read the story "Princess" by one of their former queens if you don't believe me.

Syria is where I believe the WMDs we gave Saddam 16 months to hide are located.

Israel has a right to exist and considering the map of the middle east and how little space they take up, it wouldn't KILL people to just accept it and move on. But people will kill for it anyway.

In short, "Kill 'em all. And then let God sort them out." I say this facetiously though because I can honestly think of no other real solution that isn't just pie in the sky wishy washy hopehopehopewithnosubstance. Biblically speaking I believe the same thing as a lot of other people who care to study ancient history. The sons of Isaac will make war with the sons of Ishmael until the end of the world.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Bomb the excrement out of every country except for Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, and Israel and then go about our business is my plan.

Iran has a people ready for revolution but afraid of being mowed down with machine guns and tactile nuclear devices. The Palestinians are a grossly misled people that are the virtual Muslim lepers of the world which is why no other country wants them for anything except cannon fodder for Israli missiles so they can be trotted out as an example of why Israel should die. Saudi Arabia can burn for all I care after the way they've treated the women of the land. Read the story "Princess" by one of their former queens if you don't believe me.

Syria is where I believe the WMDs we gave Saddam 16 months to hide are located.

Israel has a right to exist and considering the map of the middle east and how little space they take up, it wouldn't KILL people to just accept it and move on. But people will kill for it anyway.

In short, "Kill 'em all. And then let God sort them out." I say this facetiously though because I can honestly think of no other real solution that isn't just pie in the sky wishy washy hopehopehopewithnosubstance. Biblically speaking I believe the same thing as a lot of other people who care to study ancient history. The sons of Isaac will make war with the sons of Ishmael until the end of the world.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Why would you want that? That's just as extreme a view as they have over on their side. Extremism to fight extremism is not very intelligent solution.

[Raiha]

[quote name='TimeChaser']Why would you want that? That's just as extreme a view as they have over on their side. Extremism to fight extremism is not very intelligent solution.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Did you catch the facetiousness of it all? No? That's okay. I only mentioned it once.

And besides, it's not as extreme because I'm not motivated by religious mandate or some cracked belief that if I bring about Armageddon the 13th Imam will show up to save us all. I also don't think publicly hanging homosexuals is a good idea, nor do I support the killing of a woman or girl who is raped.

So it's not just as extreme so much as it's a cold and completely logical thing to do if you think about it. I never said it was intelligent, but neither is the vain hope that someday Jews and Christians will find common ground with people who have repeatedly stated in word and in deed that they want to kill. Us. All. For all you know, this is motivated by survivalism. And if we manage to stamp all of them out in a series of quick attacks, they won't have a chance to strike back. Peace through superior firepower and all that.

Besides, a pre-emptive strike means never having to say you're sorry.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Did you catch the facetiousness of it all? No? That's okay. I only mentioned it once.

And besides, it's not as extreme because I'm not motivated by religious mandate or some cracked belief that if I bring about Armageddon the 13th Imam will show up to save us all. I also don't think publicly hanging homosexuals is a good idea, nor do I support the killing of a woman or girl who is raped.

So it's not just as extreme so much as it's a cold and completely logical thing to do if you think about it. I never said it was intelligent, but neither is the vain hope that someday Jews and Christians will find common ground with people who have repeatedly stated in word and in deed that they want to kill. Us. All. For all you know, this is motivated by survivalism. And if we manage to stamp all of them out in a series of quick attacks, they won't have a chance to strike back. Peace through superior firepower and all that.

Besides, a pre-emptive strike means never having to say you're sorry.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I got that you were kind of being facetious to some degree. I realize conflict will not be solved without blood on either side, that's a sad given. But I think casualty on a massive scale is just sickening. We don't need a to perpetuate a holy war from our own point of view, let alone theirs.

[Raiha]

[quote name='TimeChaser']I got that you were kind of being facetious to some degree. I realize conflict will not be solved without blood on either side, that's a sad given. But I think casualty on a massive scale is just sickening. We don't need a to perpetuate a holy war from our own point of view, let alone theirs.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Casualty on a massive scale is how you win a war. Because these countries do not allow free speech, a war of ideas can not be fought on any level. And it's not perpetuating a holy war. It's ending one.

The U.S. has yet to declare a fatwah on the Middle East, but Islam as a political vehicle for terrorism has declared a fatwah on the U.S. and Israel in particular. It's the job of any nation who cares about freedoms for women, gays, and so on and so forth to combat terrorism. But how we do it would have to be either completely subtle [and thus difficult to the point of almost being impossible] or completely devastating. Propose a working solution and then I'll be interested in considering if that's even a possibility. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Casualty on a massive scale is how you win a war. Because these countries do not allow free speech, a war of ideas can not be fought on any level. And it's not perpetuating a holy war. It's ending one.

The U.S. has yet to declare a fatwah on the Middle East, but Islam as a political vehicle for terrorism has declared a fatwah on the U.S. and Israel in particular. It's the job of any nation who cares about freedoms for women, gays, and so on and so forth to combat terrorism. But how we do it would have to be either completely subtle [and thus difficult to the point of almost being impossible] or completely devastating. Propose a working solution and then I'll be interested in considering if that's even a possibility. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

We should all work together on a solution that can avoid the kind of bloodshed you seem to be advocating. I know other people believe as you do, but I sincerely hope your view does not become the overwhelmingly accepted one.

[Vicky]

[quote name='TimeChaser']Why would you want that? That's just as extreme a view as they have over on their side. Extremism to fight extremism is not very intelligent solution.[/QUOTE]

INFIDEL!

[size=1]...I'm kidding, I'm kidding!

Raiha's post was a funny - I wouldn't worry about it =p.

Personally... well, my views on this war is fully of conspiracy and paranoid thoughts. Although I'd defend that by saying it's not paranoid, just my version of the truth. The whole thing just bleeds lies and I don't know what to take as real or false and there's a lot of things people say about this war (like I've heard people going on about making Iraq better which I won't even go into a rant about) that makes my eye twitch. Personally, the losses on either side are sad and horrid. Bag of wank really, isn't it?[/size]

[Raiha]

[quote name='TimeChaser']We should all work together on a solution that can avoid the kind of bloodshed you seem to be advocating. I know other people believe as you do, but I sincerely hope your view does not become the overwhelmingly accepted one.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]First you'd need a populace in the Middle East that wants to work on a solution. Instead you have a group of people so sincerely convinced of their own moral superiority and convictions that they're willing to kill children to make a statement and win their wars. You have people who will booby trap babies and small children just to kill Americans and other helpless civilians. No sort of civilized response is going to work with a people who respond most effectively to brute force.

And you honestly have no idea what I really believe. I wouldn't be so tacky as to post my true opinions on a subject on the INTERNET. [joke][/FONT][/COLOR]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"] Biblically speaking I believe the same thing as a lot of other people who care to study ancient history. The sons of Isaac will make war with the sons of Ishmael until the end of the world.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]Well it would help if I actually believed in the "Biblically" speaking history in the first place. But since I don't... =P

Anyway, putting all the sarcasm aside, I'm for finding a more peaceful solution where possible. However, at the same time, I can't really contribute to the topic very well since I haven't followed it as closely as I should have. So I don't know enough to form a solid opinion either way.

[Esther]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]
Syria is where I believe the WMDs we gave Saddam 16 months to hide are located.
[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Yay, someone else who knows the facts.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[quote name='TimeChaser']We should all work together on a solution that can avoid the kind of bloodshed you seem to be advocating. I know other people believe as you do, but I sincerely hope your view does not become the overwhelmingly accepted one.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]No matter what, I'll always fail to believe "peaceful negotiation" can be successfully achieved with radical Muslim terrorist groups. I don't understand the logic behind people thinking we can sit down and have tea with those who want to destroy our way of life. Unless we start wearing burqas and start praying 5 times a day, the radical Muslim terrorist groups will continue to wage their "holy war" on us. At the end of the day they're still going to hate us and our way of life.

Sorry to rain on the Peace in The Middle East! parade.

In my opinion, military intervention is the only way the United States can win against all those dirty little terrorist groups. [/FONT][/SIZE]

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Esther'][SIZE="1"][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]No matter what, I'll always fail to believe "peaceful negotiation" can be successfully achieved with radical Muslim terrorist groups. I don't understand the logic behind people thinking we can sit down and have tea with those who want to destroy our way of life. Unless we start wearing burqas and start praying 5 times a day, the radical Muslim terrorist groups will continue to wage their "holy war" on us. At the end of the day they're still going to hate us and our way of life.

Sorry to rain on the Peace in The Middle East! parade.

In my opinion, military intervention is the only way the United States can win against all those dirty little terrorist groups. [/FONT][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I have no illusions that everyone can sit down and talk things out civilly. BUT, I still think we can go in and surgically take out these groups using accurate intelligence. Trundling all over the place in tanks isn't really working.

[Esther]

[quote name='TimeChaser']I have no illusions that everyone can sit down and talk things out civilly. BUT, I still think we can go in and surgically take out these groups using accurate intelligence. Trundling all over the place in tanks isn't really working.[/QUOTE]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"][SIZE="1"]Sometimes I think "accurate intelligence" is an oxymoron. The CIA failed to capture Osama bin Laden not once, but two times whilst he was in our reach. Honestly, the CIA hasn't proved itself useful in the hunt for Osama bin Laden at all; I'm not that enthusiastic about leaving the fight against terrorism in the hands of such a harum-scarum organization.

I'll probably be kidnapped and never heard of again after this. :animeswea[/SIZE][/FONT]

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Esther'][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"][SIZE="1"]Sometimes I think "accurate intelligence" is an oxymoron. The CIA failed to capture Osama bin Laden not once, but two times whilst he was in our reach. Honestly, the CIA hasn't proved itself useful in the hunt for Osama bin Laden at all; I'm not that enthusiastic about leaving the fight against terrorism in the hands of such a harum-scarum organization.

I'll probably be kidnapped and never heard of again after this. :animeswea[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

Well it is obvious that the intelligence organizations need a shake-up first. Doesn't mean they can't work at all, though. :)

[Raiha]

[quote name='TimeChaser']Well it is obvious that the intelligence organizations need a shake-up first. Doesn't mean they can't work at all, though. :)[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]For that to work you'd need to demolish the wall that exists between intelligence gathering organizations and law enforcement. We also sometimes call this Jamie Gorelick's wall. Just ask Bill Clinton about it. He'll be happy to not tell you about the times we could've gotten Bin Laden if he had taken a break from the freaking blow jobs and simply gone for it.

But anyway intelligence can work, when its hands aren't tied by a squeamish politician looking to cover his own enormous rear end.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Allamorph]

[CENTER]

[IMG]http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/9/21/128665110891677332.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]


[FONT=Arial]I have but one caveat.

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']Well it would help if I actually believed in the "Biblically" speaking history in the first place. But since I don't... =P[/quote]
What [I]you[/I] believe is irrelevant. Point of fact, the Hebrews' faith descends from Isaac, and the Muslim from Ishmael, and both openly acknowledge that. Furthermore, Muslims believe that Israel is theirs, and that it is commanded that they convert the whole world through any means necessary. That is the basis for the [I]jihad[/I] that sparked the Crusades.

What [I]you[/I] believe is irrelevant. [I]They[/I] believe in a history eerily similar to Biblical accounts, with a few names and places switched around. That is what you are dealing with, so that is the ground on which you must fight.

Incidentally, peace right now is providing the perfect solution for them. Why conquer from without when you can do the same from within?

Look to Britain.[/FONT]

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]For that to work you'd need to demolish the wall that exists between intelligence gathering organizations and law enforcement. We also sometimes call this Jamie Gorelick's wall. Just ask Bill Clinton about it. He'll be happy to not tell you about the times we could've gotten Bin Laden if he had taken a break from the freaking blow jobs and simply gone for it.

But anyway intelligence can work, when its hands aren't tied by a squeamish politician looking to cover his own enormous rear end.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I can actually agree with you on this. The various organizations do need to stop sniping at each other and actually work together so we can have a cohesive and more efficient intelligence network.

[Vicky]

[quote name='Allamorph']

Look to Britain.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Heed these words, America.

...just don't come and save us.[/size]

[Nathan]

[FONT="Arial"]An observation first, unrelated to the topic mind you, for Raiha, so if you're not them feel free to skip this part: [spoiler]I think it would be more clear if you didn't bait and switch people in debates Raiha. You know, bait them to see if they are intelligent enough to respond without getting insulted before moving into the topic and actually getting to what you really think.[/spoiler] Okay I'm done, if that's not acceptable and I need to remove it, just let me know since it's not my intent to troll.

So now that I've gotten that out of the way, I agree with the sentiment that direct military intervention isn't working out as well as expected. However, peaceful solutions don't work when the other party isn't interest in peace. You can't force someone to play nice or to change and accept what you think they should be doing. I don't mean to be vague, but in general I think the wars get a lot of negative feedback that they don't really deserve. [/FONT]

[Drizzt Do'urden]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Casualty on a massive scale is how you win a war. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

There has never been a truer statment. If you look to history, what was the last war that the United States [I]Actually[/I] won? WWII? And how did we win it?

If you look ahead Korea: Tie. Vietnam: We'll go with Tie. and you can't count the initial "war" with Iraq because fighting against a military inferior country does not count.

The truth of the matter is though, you could nuke every country over there (especially pakistan because I have good reason (not some insane illogical conspiracy theory) that Bin Laden is being housed there.). The problem with that though, is there are terror cells operating in all the major countries. Look at what happened in London a few years back with the bombings in the tube (oh and Vicky my bringing up WWII is for you next time you say please don't save us :animesmil)
The World Trade Centers, both times.

There is no real best course of action. I do agree what we're doing is right. If we left, the kurds would be gone within a matter of days.

Oh and I'm glad someone brought up the sons of Isaac and Ishmel, I have a question about that though. IF we would somehow find the ultimate solution, would that mean we would bring about the end of the world if they stopped fighting?

[Raiha]

[quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']There is no real best course of action. I do agree what we're doing is right. If we left, the curds would be gone within a matter of days.

Oh and I'm glad someone brought up the sons of Isaac and Ishmel, I have a question about that though. IF we would somehow find the ultimate solution, would that mean we would bring about the end of the world if they stopped fighting?[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Kurds dear, they aren't the leftovers from the cheese fermentation process.

And that someone being me I guess I'll answer that. No, we wouldn't bring about the end of the world, God would. And we'd then perish in fire and death because He did promise to not use water the second time around, which I guess was sweet of Him when you think about it. And I seriously doubt humanity will ever be consciously evolved enough to find an ultimate solution.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Vicky]

[quote name='Drizzt Do'urden'](oh and Vicky my bringing up WWII is for you next time you say please don't save us :animesmil)
[/QUOTE]

[size=1]Pish posh. We should have been left for dead, Germany had no quarrel with us really. Can't even remember what we were doing in the war. You should have let us diiiiee!

Oh, and remember - war is money. I don't mean oil, I mean for the banks (Government gets its money from the World Bank - they loan it with interest. War means more guns, more ammunition, tanks and all that crap - therefore the Government must loan more money and more money later for the World Bank. And yes, this is an insane conspiracy theory... I'm sure there's evidence somewhere! Watch your Zeitgeist Movie peoples!).[/size]

[Drizzt Do'urden]

[quote name='Vicky'][size=1]Pish posh. We should have been left for dead, Germany had no quarrel with us really. Can't even remember what we were doing in the war. You should have let us diiiiee![/QUOTE]

Oh dear god, I don't care if I get assaulted for writing this. I took a drink of water just before I started reading your post and most definitely choked on half and am wearing the other half.

[quote name='Raiha'] Kurds dear, they aren't the leftovers from the cheese fermentation process [/quote]

I was referring to what they would be reduced to if left for dead. (was that at all believable?

[Vicky]

[quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']Oh dear god, I don't care if I get assaulted for writing this. I took a drink of water just before I started reading your post and most definitely choked on half and am wearing the other half.
[/QUOTE]

[size=1]You understand sarcasm and jokes, I assume? ¬_¬

Twice in one thread!

I'm done.[/size]