Conflict in the Middle East

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]And that someone being me I guess I'll answer that. No, we wouldn't bring about the end of the world, God would. And we'd then perish in fire and death because He did promise to not use water the second time around, which I guess was sweet of Him when you think about it. And I seriously doubt humanity will ever be consciously evolved enough to find an ultimate solution.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

This attitude frankly scares me. We need to go forward in our foreign policy without the expectation that "The Rapture" or some other equivalent will happen. Believing these things is not healthy for this country, because if you expect the world to end and God to come again, why even bother trying to secure our future?

I hope you are being facetious again. Even if you are, that attitude still scares me, because some people honestly believe it.

[Raiha]

[quote name='TimeChaser']
I hope you are being facetious again. Even if you are, that attitude still scares me, because some people honestly believe it.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Actually I'm not, and those people who honestly believe it are also known as the Radical Christian Right. And while I don't agree with many of their policies, I don't think they're wrong about everything.

However you're also operating under the belief that you know what is healthy for a country. Look how well it's working for Iran![/FONT][/COLOR]

[Allamorph]

[QUOTE=TimeChaser]This attitude frankly scares me. We need to go forward in our foreign policy without the expectation that "The Rapture" or some other equivalent will happen. Believing these things is not healthy for this country, because if you expect the world to end and God to come again, why even bother trying to secure our future?

I hope you are being facetious again. Even if you are, that attitude still scares me, because some people honestly believe it.[/QUOTE]
[FONT=Arial]I am beginning to feel unmistakably pigeonholed by you. Also, I wonder at your lack of sense of humor. First, the joke was about reconciling the Hebrews and the Muslims (aka the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael respectively). According to both faiths (and my own), such reconciliation [I]will never happen[/I], and so the joke is funny. [I]Obviously[/I] a human event cannot influence "The Rapture", as you so demeaned it (thank you, by the way; I would have taken less exception had you merely said 'the idea of a rapture') so no, there would be no planning.

Futhermore, it is stated explicitly that "no man may know the time or the hour", so planning on the Rapture is inherently foolish. As a Christian, I hope for it, but I do not expect it, and I plan my life under the assumption that it will not happen for me.

Take it easy on the "WTF irrational Christians again" deal, 'aight? Might not be how you're meaning it, but it's how you're coming across. Especially to those of us who try to understand the what and why of our faith, and not just blindly regurgitate it back to you. I mean, that'd just be offensive to [I]you[/I]. :p[/FONT]

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Actually I'm not, and those people who honestly believe it are also known as the Radical Christian Right. And while I don't agree with many of their policies, I don't think they're wrong about everything.

However you're also operating under the belief that you know what is healthy for a country. Look how well it's working for Iran![/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

If you're going to use Iran as an example, I wouldn't call that healthy. I'd call it locked in a fanatical, fundamentalist stranglehold. That's something we don't need, and I hope we never have the fundamentalists of this country in a position of absolute power.

And is it really healthy to operate under the belief that the world will absolutely end sometime soon, just because some religious text says so? I don't believe in prophecy or being able to foretell the future. I think that is pseudoscience and no one who claims to have has ever done it.

Isn't it much more healthy to look toward the horizon of the future with an open mind and hope and expectation that we are in control of our own fate, and we should do what we can to preserve this world for the generations to come? That is much more noble and positive.

[Drizzt Do'urden]

[quote name='TimeChaser'] future with an open mind and hope and expectation that we are in control of our own fate, and we should do what we can to preserve this world for the generations to come? That is much more noble and positive.[/QUOTE]

Now you're changing the thread into a debate over religion. I'll participate until we're forced to get back on the subject at hand. In your Opinion it may be more noble and positive. But really think about what you're saing, you're trying to force an opinion as fact.

No it's not more noble, and just because you feel that you are in control of your own fate doesn't help keep an open mind. That can be spun right back around at you saying that people who don't believe that there is an end and they will have to answer for their sins are the ones who perpetuate "evil" in the world.

They're the ones who strive to control/destroy. They're the ones whose lives are ran by greed, lust, thinking once they're gone they're gone makes them step on anyone who gets in the way.

So while YOU man feel that everyone should feel the way you do, you can't honestly say that its the right way to think for everyone.

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']Now you're changing the thread into a debate over religion. I'll participate until we're forced to get back on the subject at hand. In your Opinion it may be more noble and positive. But really think about what you're saing, you're trying to force an opinion as fact.

No it's not more noble, and just because you feel that you are in control of your own fate doesn't help keep an open mind. That can be spun right back around at you saying that people who don't believe that there is an end and they will have to answer for their sins are the ones who perpetuate "evil" in the world.

They're the ones who strive to control/destroy. They're the ones whose lives are ran by greed, lust, thinking once they're gone they're gone makes them step on anyone who gets in the way.

So while YOU man feel that everyone should feel the way you do, you can't honestly say that its the right way to think for everyone.[/QUOTE]

I'm not trying to debate religion. What I'm saying is that we should not fight fundamentalism with fundamentalism. It should not be an ingredient in our foreign policy.

I am not greedy. I am not lustful. I am not evil. What I am, is someone who believes in reason. A reasoned approach to any conflict is preferable. That doesn't mean people won't die, because they have and they will continue to do so, it's a sad fact. But trying to limit casualties as much as we can is better than going in and wiping everyone out.

[Raiha]

[quote name='TimeChaser']I am not greedy. I am not lustful. I am not evil. What I am, is someone who believes in reason. A reasoned approach to any conflict is preferable. That doesn't mean people won't die, because they have and they will continue to do so, it's a sad fact. But trying to limit casualties as much as we can is better than going in and wiping everyone out.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]You are man. You ken evil just as anyone else in this world. And you are reasonable, but you are also idealistic.

Limiting casualties, and holding yourself back for the sake of a measured response is not the way wars are won. Using just enough force to beat back an opponent will spell your inevitable demise. And not everyone is as reasonable as you. You are a rare gem of nobility and honor in a world that has forgotten the meaning of shame. Enjoy it while it lasts.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Allamorph']What you believe is irrelevant. Point of fact, the Hebrews' faith descends from Isaac, and the Muslim from Ishmael, and both openly acknowledge that. Furthermore, Muslims believe that Israel is theirs, and that it is commanded that they convert the whole world through any means necessary. That is the basis for the jihad that sparked the Crusades.

What you believe is irrelevant. They believe in a history eerily similar to Biblical accounts, with a few names and places switched around. That is what you are dealing with, so that is the ground on which you must fight.[/QUOTE]Hmm, I guess the =P was not enough to indicate I was being silly and far from serious. I was trying to just poke Raiha, but apparently that was not conveyed correctly.

Seems it was taking as the "stupid" card on my part instead. Uh, obviously what I believe is irrelevant and I'm not so dumb as to think otherwise. If it were, a lot of the fighting would not occur. If anything it could be taken and an indication that attempts to find peaceful solutions won't work.

[Guest Crimson Spider]

Personally I am a little annoyed at the lack of social evolution in the middle east. Their cultures blame the indirect action of individuals as a cause, and give fault only to the victims. Their cultures norm is to become insulted and lash out in anger whenever they are confronted. I can't wait for them to "westernize" eventually.

This is hoping that the concept of "westernization" isn't cast into darkness by immediate pathological appeal. That can happen, unfortunately.


In regards to U.S. involvement: the U.N. is a toothless tiger unable to preform the most rudimentary actions that it was established to preform, so the United States must be involved. It is also part of the belief of the U.S. that every person has equally granted rights, and to deny those rights is a punishable offense. Especially in a global economy, where someone's actions in a nation can put a financial stress on the average home in another nation half the world away.

[Kastom]

As soon as I saw the topic of this thread, I just knew that somewhere, at least one person would use the words "good" and/or "evil". I love it! It's so amusing that people still believe in the concept of morality and ethics, and are applying them so readily, especially in the midst of heated arguments and discussions.

I really find it hilarious that people here are trying to justify their point of view by saying that their own way of life is better than others.
You have every right to, as it's obvious, that in [I]your mind[/I], what these people are doing is in fact "evil". Personally, from [I]my point of view[/I], I find it very funny.

But really, that's what it all comes down to. [I]Everything is relative[/I]. People always believe that they are "right", and that "others" are wrong. Why? Because they dictate how the world looks to themselves. Hence the reason that two people can view each other as being evil.

I really enjoy the amount of generalization that is also going on here. I find it amazing that there are people still using the primitive "them" vs. "us" mindset in daily life.
"RAWR. They live in a place that's DIFFERENT than us! That MUST BE WRONG. It MUST be evil! Let's lump everyone that's not us with them!"

Like, wow, reading some of these things makes me very amused at the state of the human race.

Still, at least there are people like TimeChaser...

[Vicky]

[quote name='Crimson Spider']Personally I am a little annoyed at the lack of social evolution in the middle east. Their cultures blame the indirect action of individuals as a cause, and give fault only to the victims. Their cultures norm is to become insulted and lash out in anger whenever they are confronted. I can't wait for them to "westernize" eventually.

[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]And why? For one, they're in the East - to say they become Westernised is pretty much implying the West is better. Let them have their own way of life and leave them alone (I'm not saying the country is amazing in its violence and war, but for that to change they don't have to be Westernised).[/size]

[Raiha]

[quote name='Kastom']As soon as I saw the topic of this thread, I just knew that somewhere, at least one person would use the words "good" and/or "evil". I love it! It's so amusing that people still believe in the concept of morality and ethics, and are applying them so readily, especially in the midst of heated arguments and discussions.

I really find it hilarious that people here are trying to justify their point of view by saying that their own way of life is better than others.
You have every right to, as it's obvious, that in [I]your mind[/I], what these people are doing is in fact "evil". Personally, from [I]my point of view[/I], I find it very funny.

But really, that's what it all comes down to. [I]Everything is relative[/I].
Still, at least there are people like TimeChaser...[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Save your moral relativism for a more fitting argument. TimeChaser himself has agreed that change is necessary and while he doesn't stoop to using rhetorically inflammatory statements designed to get a response, he's not wrong.

Furthermore, I'm not trying to justify my point of view by saying Western culture better than other cultures. If I was I would have advocated the destruction of every Muslim in the World. Look closer, I suggest we spare Egypt right there in my opening statements. You think that murdering rape victims is not evil? You think it's funny that I'm offended by female genital mutilation and think the people who practice it are brutal savages? I pity you and your ethically comfortable paraplegia.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Vicky'][SIZE=1]And why? For one, they're in the East - to say they become Westernised is pretty much implying the West is better. Let them have their own way of life and leave them alone (I'm not saying the country is amazing in its violence and war, but for that to change they don't have to be Westernised).[/size][/QUOTE]

There is a problem with that, though, because of the violence towards women and anyone who doesn't conform or dares to question things.

Humans rights transcend what their religion and laws tell them is OK to do to other people. We're stuck in a tenuous situation, because we want everyone to enjoy the freedom of the rights they deserve as human beings, but their culture is very insular and xenophobic of what is on the "outside".

[Guest Crimson Spider]

[quote name='Vicky'][SIZE=1]And why? For one, they're in the East - to say they become Westernised is pretty much implying the West is better. Let them have their own way of life and leave them alone (I'm not saying the country is amazing in its violence and war, but for that to change they don't have to be Westernised).[/size][/QUOTE]

You are exactly right, Vicky. I am implying that the West is better. Part of their "Westernization" will be the desire to solve things by either coming to a truth, or a compromise that is much deeper than "You die, and I continue my reign".

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"][FONT="Book Antiqua"][quote name='Crimson Spider']You are exactly right, Vicky. I am implying that the West is better. Part of their "Westernization" will be the desire to solve things by either coming to a truth, or a compromise that is much deeper than "You die, and I continue my reign".[/QUOTE]That actually sounds just like them. My way is better and that's that. I don't believe that all of them hold the view of "you die, and I continue my reign." Seems pretty ignorant to assume they all think like that. Though if that's not what you're saying, then please clarify. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Guest Crimson Spider]

Extremism is in the eye of the beholder. There is fact in this universe, and chances are that one way IS better than the other. I am willing to argue that my way is better than their way, and I will do so honestly, logically, and open to criticism.

Also, I am not generalizing a group of individuals as much as I am just generalizing the ideal.

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"][FONT="Book Antiqua"][quote name='Crimson Spider']Also, I am not generalizing a group of individuals as much as I am just generalizing the ideal.[/QUOTE]Well anyone who uses the ideal of kill them all is pretty stupid in my opinion anyway. I'm still out on the bench as to which way is better. For the simple reason I honestly don't know enough about their culture to be able to say something like that. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Vicky]

[quote name='Crimson Spider']Extremism is in the eye of the beholder. There is fact in this universe, and chances are that one way IS better than the other. I am willing to argue that my way is better than their way, and I will do so honestly, logically, and open to criticism.

Also, I am not generalizing a group of individuals as much as I am just generalizing the ideal.[/QUOTE]

[size=1]That's funny, since 'your way' was derived from the East itself (who do you think invented the zero?). Your way takes things from every other part of the world - so it's not 'your way' at all, it's a combination of everything there is. Developed. Why don't you let them develop [i]their[/i] own way? The West also had a brutal and horrible history as well until it became... hmm... Westernised.[/size]

[Kastom]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]You think that murdering rape victims is not evil? You think it's funny that I'm offended by female genital mutilation and think the people who practice it are brutal savages? I pity you and your ethically comfortable paraplegia.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I never actually said anything about my views on the specific matter. Personally I want to do whatever I can to do to stop rape, murder, etc., you know, the typical "bad stuff".

However, if you open your mind a bit, and look at this whole idea from someone else's point of view you just might see something interesting. Sure, lots of people think that these things are indeed "evil". However, since there are indeed people that do said things, does this not constitute the idea that these people do not think so? So where does this leave us? One person believes that they are good, and some other believes that they are bad.

What's the solution? Hard to say. According to you and all human history, it's to kill. Is that not in itself at least somewhat brutal and savage?

Personally I have no idea. I just wish that more people would think a little more about others before they kill. On both sides of this argument.


On the note of what many others are talking about:

It just really seems like most people are trying to say that their way is the right way, regardless of anything else. What if there were some other people that viewed "Westernization" as savage due to the fact there is rape and murder in our society? Should they then in turn attempt to kill us due to our obviously inferior and brutal nature? They are but just making our lives better and protecting themselves are they not?

A question I ask everyone here:
If there was another society without rape and murder, etc., and they said that they were going to kill us because we are spreading terror amongst their people, would you just accept that? For many people here, your logic dictates that you lie down and allow yourself to be killed, lest you become a hypocrite.

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Aaryanna][COLOR="DarkGreen"][FONT="Book Antiqua"]I don't believe that all of them hold the view of "you die, and I continue my reign." Seems pretty ignorant to assume they all think like that.[/FONT'][/COLOR][/quote]
[FONT=Arial]I have several acquaintances who have had extensive contact with the Muslim community, both in the Middle East and throughout Europe. They have held commune with laypersons and religious leaders alike, and what they have seen is that no matter the station, the same beliefs are held. One of my colleagues was careful to mention the media's representation of the violent factions as "Muslim extremists", and noted that this is not the case, citing a conversation with high-school aged students about a Muslim in Britain who had converted to Christianity; the response echoed by each student was "he must die", without exception. One young man even went so far as to stab the table with his knife to show the strength of his feeling.[/FONT]

[Rachmaninoff]

Seems like the key word here Allamorph, from Aaryanna's post is "all". Considering the admission of one converting to Christianity, in your own post no less, if that were true,[I] no one[/I] would convert to Christianity in the first place. You might be able to convince me that perhaps most of them think like that, but it's clear that, obviously, all of them[I] do not[/I] think like that.

Doesn't change the fact that there are some pretty extreme reactions in the community though. But still, to imply that all of them are willing to kill is profiling.

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"][FONT="Book Antiqua"][quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]I have several acquaintances who have had extensive contact with the Muslim community, both in the Middle East and throughout Europe. They have held commune with laypersons and religious leaders alike, and what they have seen is that no matter the station, the same beliefs are held. One of my colleagues was careful to mention the media's representation of the violent factions as "Muslim extremists", and noted that this is not the case, citing a conversation with high-school aged students about a Muslim in Britain who had converted to Christianity; the response echoed by each student was "he must die", without exception. One young man even went so far as to stab the table with his knife to show the strength of his feeling.[/FONT][/QUOTE]I may not keep up on this as well as I could but: [URL="http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/32400/British-Muslims-are-too-extreme-"][U]BRITISH MUSLIMS ARE 'TOO EXTREME[/U][/URL] I still maintain that asserting all of them are like that is [I]ignorant[/I].

It reminds me of how ill informed people are about the religion my mother belongs to. There are branches or sects that would be considered extreme and yet saying all "Mormon's" are like that would be wrong.

So my stance is the same. It's a bit too easy and far too pat to think that everyone must think like that. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Raiha]

[quote name='Kastom']However, if you open your mind a bit, and look at this whole idea from someone else's point of view you just might see something interesting. Sure, lots of people think that these things are indeed "evil". However, since there are indeed people that do said things, does this not constitute the idea that these people do not think so? So where does this leave us? One person believes that they are good, and some other believes that they are bad.

What's the solution? Hard to say. According to you and all human history, it's to kill. Is that not in itself at least somewhat brutal and savage?[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Do not patronize me. As I recall someone opened their mind once and suggested that we could try being nice to other people for a change and they nailed him to a tree.

You're not responding to my points, you're giving me psychobabble in the name of moral relativism. Stick to the topic at hand. To suggest that people who routinely hack off the heads of infidels is not evil in any way is both embarrassing and demonstrates a level of social confusion that borders on the imbecilic.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']Seems like the key word here Allamorph, from Aaryanna's post is "all".[/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Seems like the key words in mine were "no matter the station" and "the Middle East and throughout Europe". I know all too well the dangers of overgeneralising and profiling people, and I assure you that I am very careful when I do. (Also remember there is a difference in [I]what[/I] you believe and how you display it. If our previous discussions have not been enough to prove that point to you....)

[QUOTE][I]Considering the admission of one converting to Christianity, in your own post no less, if that were true, no one would convert to Christianity in the first place.[/I][/QUOTE]
You seem to be under the impression, then, that a Muslim who converts to Christianity (or Buddhism, for that matter) must not have been a very good Muslim to begin with, in the sense that their beliefs must not have been as strong as others of their faith. That is a false impression; consider the testimony of Paul (formerly Saul) who was originally a devout Christian-hunter (in effect) and one of the best, who hated Christians and sought to kill them wherever he encountered them?and changed his life in the span of less than one minute, contributing to a large portion of the New Testament with his letters to fledgling churches.

Saul was an extremist. He 'converted' to Christianity. Thus, the phrase "no one" is defunct. (Unless you want to toss the "it would help if I believed..." card again. :animesmil )

Incidentally, Islamic law forbids renouncing the Muslim faith. Wait, no, that's not true; Islamic law says that renouncing is not possible. It also says that any who [I]do[/I] recant are to be killed.

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Aaryanna[/COLOR]: The only reason I make this stance is because I can say with full confidence that there is no such thing as "extreme" Islam. "Extreme" is a word tossed on by the media to make headlines draw people to read; it does not in actuality exist, just as "pacifist" Islam does not exist. Granted, not everyone who is Muslim is a terrorist. But that does not mean that those who are not would not kill if given the chance.

(Incidentally, the aforementioned student who stabbed the table also stated that he would have executed the convert himself if he were able. And this group of students was in northern Turkey, if I recall my friend's words correctly.)

I think the difficulty in recognizing that type of pervasive animosity comes from living in a nation where there is simply no reason to fight each other. That region of the world has been in constant conflict since the Hebrews first conquered Caanan . . . by marching around a city for a week and blowing trumpets.

[quote name='TimeChaser']Humans rights transcend what their religion and laws tell them is OK to do to other people.[/quote]
Human Rights do, but the [I]granting and admission[/I] of said rights depends on those in power. In the case of Islam, there are no concessions made because the religion [I]is[/I] the government, and there is no separation. When one is justified by one's beliefs, and one holds the power, one is not likely to listen to reason if said reason will not benefit the one.[/FONT]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]The only reason I make this stance is because I can say with full confidence that there is no such thing as "extreme" Islam. "Extreme" is a word tossed on by the media to make headlines draw people to read; it does not in actuality exist, just as "pacifist" Islam does not exist. Granted, not everyone who is Muslim is a terrorist. But that does not mean that those who are not would not kill if given the chance.

(Incidentally, the aforementioned student who stabbed the table also stated that he would have executed the convert himself if he were able. And this group of students was in northern Turkey, if I recall my friend's words correctly.)[/FONT][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]This is ridiculous -- to say there is no "extreme" or "moderate" schools of thought within Islam is to dismiss the majority of the American Muslim population.

There are Muslims living in America who do not support/endorse the actions of terrorists or religious fundamentalists in the Middle East. There are Muslims living in the Middle East who hold more radical views. Be certain; there is absolutely a spectrum of thought within the faith.

Additionally, Islam is just as "inherently violent" as Christianity or Judaism. Read Leviticus, look at Christian justification for conquest and destruction, and you'll see that perhaps your critique of the violence of Islam is a bit hypocritical.

Sorry if I didn't do your points full justice, I have to run.[/font]