Gender? (Bending and otherwise)

[Nessaja]

I was reading through the sexuality thread, and it got me thinking about people who are born as both genders, or the people who just find their gender boring and decide to join the fun on the other side of the fence.

Well, I don't know anyone who was born as a hermaphrodite, but people I've met who are transgendered get a lot of hate for it. Why do you guys think that is? Also, let's pretend that the normal genders get hate for being born that way. What would that be like?

I know if I got a lot of hate for being a girl when I couldn't choose being that way, I would move. D:

Oh and guys, you aren't off the hook. What if we lived in a world dominated by females and the male gender was looked down on?

[b]I'm not responsible for any arguments this thread might cause, or any mental meltdowns thanks to my strange choice of topic.[/b] (I need to stop mixing strange dinners with tea and staying up late. @.@)

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Oh come now, tea is perfectly fine. Unless you laced it with wormwood and arsenic.

To me, gender roles are very specific for male and female, but conversely I have a rather fluid view of sexuality. I often mix up my gender specific nouns on purpose just to make people wonder what I really am. And speaking as one of those self actualized bisexual women, I don't find it important to broadcast how I view men and women and transgendered people and what have you. I don't hate transgendered people, I don't hate gay people, I only hate people who demand special treatment and look down on people who don't completely support their life choices 100%. This goes for both sides.

It's a murky issue these days with science, technology, and a society that no longer needs a massive amount of breeding pairs to populate the earth. But on the other hand, I've been on the receiving end of a lot of hate from an extremely vocal minority of homosexual people who called me in the following order: "A hate monger" and "A dumb as **** breeder." Equally, my conservative ordained minister mother is convinced that kissing women will send me straight to hell with no stops along the way. But I can't help being erotically plastic, attracted to who makes me feel good and accepts me despite my numerous and delicious tasting flaws. So I can't really say. People are people regardless of their genders and life choices.

Better to let them drown in their own ignorance and go about your merry way.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Vicky]

[quote name='Nessaja']
Well, I don't know anyone who was born as a hermaphrodite, but people I've met who are transgendered get a lot of hate for it. Why do you guys think that is? [/QUOTE]

[size=1]'cause people are insecure bigots?

If you're happy then you're happy and others shouldn't hate someone if they're happy, [i]regardless[/i] of whether they fit the 'social norm' or anything like that. Personally, I think the amount of people with all this hate for transgenders, hermaphrodites, even drag queens and cross dressers, should shove it up their arse and get a grip. Anyone who says it's not normal should look up the term 'hermaphrodite' and realise that the majority of this is present in the animal kingdom, lol. Us human beings ain't above all that yet to be condemning nature because society (pretty ****ing unnatural) says so.

This issue often irritates me because the people who will jump out with the hatred and 'wrong wrong wrong' statements are quite ignorant. There's no perfectly identified gender anywhere - there are gender roles in society and that just makes it all the more awkward and silly. All these gender specific items are ignored - you must have, at one point, worn at man's jacket or bought one if you were a girl, and vice versa? So what's the point of slamming the table and saying 'woman and man - born that one, no other way!'? That's not to do with nature - hermaphrodites did not just appear in the 21st century. It's a [i]social[/i] set of rules and, again like the issue with sexuality in the bible, there are 'exceptions' to the rule that benefit the haters.

It's really silly that we, a 'civilised' society, cannot fathom the same acceptance to these issues like the majority of the brutal ancients could... notably pagans. I love saying that.

I'm not saying anyone who's transgender etc etc should be given special treatment, nor that people should willing agree with their lifestyle, I'm saying others who don't agree should stop hating and leave them alone. I dislike organised religion, but I do not protest outside churches, yell in people's faces, or even [i]kill[/i] anyone from organised religions. I tolerate it and accept it as their faith and their way of life, even though I'm quite suspicious of it and question it myself. Why is it so difficult elsewhere?

Anyway, I have a very strange gender identity. Of course I'm a girl, slightly... but you see, I role play online as men, I also write more about men and sometimes when I join other forums I pretend to be a man =p. Someone on here once thought I was a man...

I also accidentally said 'we' once or twice and I do it a lot of here - when I say 'we', it's actually very unlikely I'm referring to a group.

But my gender identity issues can be simplified with one statement, which I refrain from saying, as you don't need to know =).[/size]

[chibi-master]

Hmm...actually, sometimes I wonder if my personality would be a bit more normal for me if i were a boy...but then again, normal's boring as hell.:catgirl:

Anyway, I've no problem with people bending or changing their genders. Heck, I've always wanted to wear a tux to my eighth grade graduation instead of a dress. But I also like girlish clothes sometimes...it all depends... (And yes, I'm a girl.)

[Vicky]

[quote name='chibi-master']Hmm...actually, sometimes I wonder if my personality would be a bit more normal for me if i were a boy...but then again, normal's boring as hell.:catgirl:

Anyway, I've no problem with people bending or changing their genders. Heck, I've always wanted to wear a tux to my eighth grade graduation instead of a dress. But I also like girlish clothes sometimes...it all depends... (And yes, I'm a girl.)[/QUOTE]

[size=1]Beat you, I wore a tuxedo for my prom =p.

Nice white one with my master mohawk and this blood red shirt. Had some make up on as well. Right [url=http://a403.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/45/l_67ccc442118e3184e9061c7e76e5fb6a.jpg]here[/url].

I also play the men in my school plays... or in my former school. And get the comment 'is that a boy or a girl?'. I'm the skinniest and shortest lad I've ever seen, then. Either way, I know how to play both roles incredibly well.[/size]

[eleanor]

[font=trebuchet ms] Sometimes I wish I was a guy so I could dress myself in mens J. Crew clothing.[/font]

[The13thMan]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Just because homosexuality or hermaphrodites exist in the animal world doesn't mean it should be accepted in the human world. Some animals sometimes eat their young to survive, should this then too be considered alright in our society? This is often called the naturalistic fallacy, unless i'm misunderstanding it. Just because something exists in nature does not mean it's any better or worse than what is produced "artificially" by man.

Don't get me wrong. I'm no hater. I have little problem with people being what they want to be. You can have sex with electronics for the rest of your life for all i care. Just don't let it get in my way... which would be really weird. o_0

In my opinion, it's all about society. I read a book once that had a lot of "time traveling" due to time dilation and relativity. The main character was born in the 60s and experienced different time periods while he was basically traveling the universe, stopping back at earth every few centuries. One society looked down on heterosexuals because the world was overpopulated and homosexuality doesn't produce nearly as many babies as its counter does. Then another society was a bunch of clones that didn't give a flip who you flopped... even though they basically had sex with themselves. My point in all this is that sexuality is going to be something highly influenced by society. Right now, for whatever reason, homosexuality is frowned upon. The next step is to find out why and decide whether that's alright or not. I have an opinion on this, but i won't go into it now. [/FONT]

[TimeChaser]

With such diversity in the world, I've always though the word "normal" is rather pathetic. One person's normal can be another person's bizarre, it's such a subjective term.

I certainly don't begrudge people for the way they are born, especially if it's a biological situation they had no control over (hermaphrodite, transgendered, etc.)

When I was a kid, my sister and one of her friends decided to dress me up as a girl for a while. I went along with it and thought it was fun, I was just a kid playing around and didn't have any notion that what I was doing wasn't "normal".

People just have this fanatical desire to compartmentalize and categorize everything is "this" or "that" with no in-between because it eases this rather silly fear they have for what they perceive is different.

[Vicky]

[quote name='The13thMan'][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Just because homosexuality or hermaphrodites exist in the animal world doesn't mean it should be accepted in the human world. Some animals sometimes eat their young to survive, should this then too be considered alright in our society? This is often called the naturalistic fallacy, unless i'm misunderstanding it. Just because something exists in nature does not mean it's any better or worse than what is produced "artificially" by man.

[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]I was a rather blunt statement, but what I mean is people often state it is unnatural in human nature above all and I was referring to humans as animals. The very fact that [i]it happens[/i] suggests that it's probably nature.

To make it clear, I don't care at all whether it's nature or not. We are not nature anymore, and I see the whole 'unnatural' thing as a fallacy itself. Therefore any statement of it being against nature is downright silly.[/size]

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='The13thMan'][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Just because homosexuality or hermaphrodites exist in the animal world doesn't mean it should be accepted in the human world. Some animals sometimes eat their young to survive, should this then too be considered alright in our society? This is often called the naturalistic fallacy, unless i'm misunderstanding it. Just because something exists in nature does not mean it's any better or worse than what is produced "artificially" by man.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

I'm going to put my two cent s in on this as well.

The point is that, because it occurs in other animals, that is a strong support for the genetic argument, that people are born homosexual; animals obviously don't choose to be that way.

And a hermaphrodite is entirely a biological situation, no one can just choose to be one and grow a second pair of genitals just by wishing for them.

[The13thMan]

[quote name='Vicky'][SIZE=1]I was a rather blunt statement, but what I mean is people often state it is unnatural in human nature above all and I was referring to humans as animals. The very fact that [i]it happens[/i] suggests that it's probably nature.

To make it clear, I don't care at all whether it's nature or not. We are not nature anymore, and I see the whole 'unnatural' thing as a fallacy itself. Therefore any statement of it being against nature is downright silly.[/size][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]The speculation that because their is homosexuality in the animal world it is natural for their to be homosexuality in the human world, and because it is natural it is therefore alright, is only speculation, and not any sort of solid evidence. What i would consider to be solid evidence that homosexuality is caused by our biology is if we actually found some reason that it would be... a gene or something. Nobody should say that it's ok to be homosexual because there are gay animals, and neither should anybody say the opposite. So, i suppose on that part we agree (not to say we even really disagreed on anything in the first place, hah).

I think there are many reasons for a person to be gay. Society, their own personal environment, pop culture, maybe something physical, who knows? I don't think there are many gay people who can honestly say there was 1 and only 1 reason that they are gay. [/FONT]

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='The13thMan'][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]The speculation that because their is homosexuality in the animal world it is natural for their to be homosexuality in the human world, and because it is natural it is therefore alright, is only speculation, and not any sort of solid evidence. What i would consider to be solid evidence that homosexuality is caused by our biology is if we actually found some reason that it would be... a gene or something. Nobody should say that it's ok to be homosexual because there are gay animals, and neither should anybody say the opposite. So, i suppose on that part we agree (not to say we even really disagreed on anything in the first place, hah). [/FONT][/QUOTE]

That's the point. We haven't yet found the genetic cause, but because it occurs elsewhere in the animal kingdom, that is strong support for the idea that it is genetic. In time, we may indeed find the DNA changes, but we shouldn't dimiss other evidence that is already pointing to this outcome.

[Vicky]

[quote name='The13thMan'][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]The speculation that because their is homosexuality in the animal world it is natural for their to be homosexuality in the human world, and because it is natural it is therefore alright, is only speculation, and not any sort of solid evidence. What i would consider to be solid evidence that homosexuality is caused by our biology is if we actually found some reason that it would be... a gene or something. Nobody should say that it's ok to be homosexual because there are gay animals, and neither should anybody say the opposite. So, i suppose on that part we agree (not to say we even really disagreed on anything in the first place, hah).
[/FONT][/QUOTE]

[size=1]You see, I personally only use the 'in nature' counter argument when people bring up nature and I rarely use it as an 'excuse'. We should not do because animals do (if you get me) but we should also realise that being of higher intelligence doesn't justify hatred, damnation, bigotry and violence against what we [i]think[/i] is wrong.

I think the major issue here is, why is it [i]not[/i] right, whether it's in nature or not? Homosexuality doesn't hurt people. You can say killing is nature (ignoring the driving factors of a murder) but we know this is morally wrong because it hurts people. I don't understand why homosexuality has all these morals issues because, frankly, it doesn't hurt a thing.

You can understand arguments about, lets say abortion (damn threads) about being right or wrong because it involves speculated life, harm and all that jargon. The main problem is the only evidence people bring up for this sort of thing being wrong involves 'unnatural', 'against the Lord', 'not scientific'. There is a lot of loose evidence and ideas about how children are born as... let's say a savant for now, but does that make it wrong because there is no scientific evidence?[/size]

[chibi-master]

[quote name='Vicky'][size=1]Beat you, I wore a tuxedo for my prom =p.
Right [url=http://a403.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/45/l_67ccc442118e3184e9061c7e76e5fb6a.jpg]here[/url].[/size][/QUOTE]
HOT DAMN!:o You pulled that off awesomely!

[quote name='Vicky'][size=1]I also play the men in my school plays... or in my former school. And get the comment 'is that a boy or a girl?'. I'm the skinniest and shortest lad I've ever seen, then. Either way, I know how to play both roles incredibly well.[/size][/QUOTE]

You act too? Vicky, you are my hero...

[James]

[font=franklin gothic medium]The gay argument really needs to stop. I mean, most of the evidence so far points to a genetic link (the latest stuff I've read suggests it's related to an additional X chromosome).

But whether it's nature or nurture, people need to get over it. People are the way they are and unless they're infringing upon your rights, leave 'em alone.

That's my piece on that, anyway.

As far as gender roles go, I tend to think that much of this is related to society. I always find it kind of funny that despite female liberation in western society, it's the Muslim world that seems to have had the most female presidents/prime ministers! Very interesting, haha.

I haven't known any transvestites/transsexuals personally I must admit. But I do have some friends who have friends that are transsexual (one in particular comes to mind - she's incredibly nice; probably one of the nicest and most interesting people I've ever met actually).

I really have no issues there. I don't really think it's my right to judge unless something horrifically harmful is happening (and it really isn't).

As far as the world being dominated by men or women... well, I think there's still quite a lot of inequality for women. I always hear this phrase "post-feminist world", but I wonder what that really means.

Much of the descrimination against women today is far more subtle (although there are overt cases, like women earning less wages for the same jobs as men - that should be totally and utterly illegal if it isn't already - I think it's illegal in Australia but not sure about the U.S. or elsewhere).

I often think about Hillary Clinton and what she's been through and I think so much of it relates to her being a woman. I mean, sure, I think she should be criticized as much as any man. Yet so much of that criticism seemed based on her being a "heartless, cold woman". I feel like a lot of these features would be considered assets on a man (efficiency, logic, pragmatism etc).[/font]

[Raiha]

[quote name='James'][font=franklin gothic medium]Much of the descrimination against women today is far more subtle (although there are overt cases, like women earning less wages for the same jobs as men - that should be totally and utterly illegal if it isn't already - I think it's illegal in Australia but not sure about the U.S. or elsewhere).

I often think about Hillary Clinton and what she's been through and I think so much of it relates to her being a woman. I mean, sure, I think she should be criticized as much as any man. Yet so much of that criticism seemed based on her being a "heartless, cold woman". I feel like a lot of these features would be considered assets on a man (efficiency, logic, pragmatism etc).[/font][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Agreed, but there's nothing I hate more than activist women who throw their own kind under the bus when it becomes politically expedient.

I criticize Clinton as a conservative, because her principles and mine do not line up and yet she would've been the one to shove them down our collective throats. I think she should have divorced Bill and gotten it over with right away. If she had, she probably would've done just a bit better in the race against Obama. Less dead weight you know...

But seriously, as long as it doesn't infringe on my rights, I wouldn't try to infringe upon theirs. And in the same vein, as far as science and homosexuality goes, sometimes it is based on fact and sometimes you just get someone who really really really hated their mother, or their father, or the world. I've met both, and I don't mind at all. Granted once that hatred towards women and boobs is turned towards me, I tend to get pissed, but at that individual, not the whole of the group he or she identifies with. I've known a few transgendered people and they're generally the nicest folks. Then of course you run into one or two who want to abolish all personal gender identifying pronouns who tend to be just slightly off kilter.

I mean come on now. You can't change the entire history of the human language and abolish a few words just because they don't perfectly fit with you. Then again, I've only known a couple people like that in an otherwise totally sane community.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Nathan]

[FONT="Arial"][quote name='Nessaja']Well, I don't know anyone who was born as a hermaphrodite, but people I've met who are transgendered get a lot of hate for it. Why do you guys think that is?[/quote]Ignorance and fear of anything different or rather anything that isn't part of what's considered socially normal in today's society. Though defining normal could be quite the chore since that is highly subjective.

I can't say I care one way or the other. Usually what bothers me about people is attitudes and personality traits that make them either nice or a jerk. Not stuff that is more physical in nature. [/FONT]

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]I believe it's been a while since we had this distinct thread, as opposed to it's "sexuality" counterpart which rears it's head every four to six months without fail.

Fortunately for debating purposes my opinion on the concept of sexuality is rather similar to those on gay rights, I don't have an opinion one way or another. I support their rights as human beings to be given the dignity to express themselves, but would stop short at pride parades and other self-aggrandizing forms of expression. I'm not sure if that's a case of "live and let live", "just don't ask, don't tell", or a mixture of the two.

Really I just don't care for those "pride" parades of any description, yes, that includes Saint Patrick's Day, I'm Irish and don't feel the need to tell the whole damn world on March 17th.

At the same time though, those who would vocalise homosexual, transgendered and hermaphrodite people to be stoned in the street should have their right of expression severely curtailed. Yeah, probably is a "live and let live" line of thought. I find such ignorance to be repugnant, especially when backed up simply because "it's OKed by the Bible", remember first and foremost Christ is about loving your neighbour, not hating and ostracising him/her.

So yeah, that's my opinion, let anyone be themselves as long as they don't feel the need to broadcast it in other people's faces. People are made up of far, far more than just their sexuality or gender.[/SIZE]

[Nessaja]

[quote name='Vicky'][size=1]
All these gender specific items are ignored - you must have, at one point, worn at man's jacket or bought one if you were a girl, and vice versa?[/size][/QUOTE]

I'm guilty of that. Sometimes a jacket designed in a style that I like is made for the opposite gender, but I buy it anyways. Actually, more than just jackets too. (Shirts, shorts, etc) Some of my friends even wear boxers.

Nothing as cool though as wearing a tuxedo to a prom. That was impressive, Vicky. =) Which also makes me wonder, why is it so easy for girls to cross dress without judgement? (Besides wearing something that is seen as 'masculine' like a tuxedo.) Nobody gives me a second glance if I wear a guy's shirt for example.

[quote name='James'][font=franklin gothic medium]
As far as gender roles go, I tend to think that much of this is related to society. I always find it kind of funny that despite female liberation in western society, it's the Muslim world that seems to have had the most female presidents/prime ministers! Very interesting, haha.

As far as the world being dominated by men or women... well, I think there's still quite a lot of inequality for women. I always hear this phrase "post-feminist world", but I wonder what that really means.

Much of the descrimination against women today is far more subtle (although there are overt cases, like women earning less wages for the same jobs as men - that should be totally and utterly illegal if it isn't already - I think it's illegal in Australia but not sure about the U.S. or elsewhere).

I often think about Hillary Clinton and what she's been through and I think so much of it relates to her being a woman. I mean, sure, I think she should be criticized as much as any man. Yet so much of that criticism seemed based on her being a "heartless, cold woman". I feel like a lot of these features would be considered assets on a man (efficiency, logic, pragmatism etc).[/font][/QUOTE]

I had no idea that they have had more female leaders either. That is pretty funny.

And all of the inequality and discrimination make me wonder what it would be like if it was the opposite way. Not much different from today, except a different gender would be discriminated. But what would it be like if certain goverments never had elected a single male leader? Or if some men earned less money than women, etc. I'm not saying I would prefer it, it just seems like a strange thought having grown up as one of the 'weaker sex'.

And I agree, Raiha. Hatred against extra body parts like boobs (or having a lack of certain parts in other places) is pretty silly when you think about it. But like you, I don't hate all men thanks to certain people. (Which reminds me, sorry to any of the guys in OB if it seems like this thread was brought up out of such hate, but it wasn't. I just thought it would be an interesting topic, and I'm glad it's proving to be one so far.)

[Guest Crimson Spider]

[color=red][size=1]Edit: If you're so tired of explaining yourself, don't. We get it. Don't start taking [i]other[/i] threads off topic, thanks.[/color][/size]

And now, for something on-topic.

I never saw gender as something that was up for debate in regards to a person's identity. Mainly because I do not see gender as a factor that is characterized as personal desire, state of mind, or the sum of someone's habits. Sure, we often generalize the culture that we exist in to assign certain observed traits to certain genders, but what is lacking is substance. To say that all a man (or woman) is, is the sum of all of their actions, is to say that how you behave takes precedence over biology, and genetic coding. Akin to saying that a blind man has sight only because he acts in a manner that is described as having vision.

Gender is not strictly binary, however. I believe there is several medical conditions, such as Klinefelter Syndrome (or however it is spelled), that can cause a hermaphrodite to be born. Klinefelter is characterized by an individual having an excess X chromosome, and when coupled with a Y-chromosome, the body will attempt to form both structures at the same time, creating an ineffective and useless structure.

There are more developmental issues that can cause gender-crossing systems, but that really isn't the question everyone is waiting for me to answer. They want to know what do I, as a Christian, think of this?

I'd say that hermaphrodites were "let of the hook". Even under issues with ambiguous biological gender development, hermaphrodites will assume a single gender that "most resembles them", and will operate under this gender, never-the-wiser about their condition. There are a few programs (proposed? In effect? I don't know) that are attempting to diagnose these biological factors at an early age, that way the child will live a less traumatic life when one gender organ suddenly switches to another, and young girls start growing beard hair.

A hermaphrodite is unique in the sense that they have a choice under which gender to operate under. It really is "their call".


Trans-gendered individuals, or individuals who are in one body but feel like "I've been born in the wrong body" have a much less substantial case. I wouldn't throw out science and move onto an undefined/abstract philosophy about gender for the case of a man who wants to be a woman. Much more logical to assume that this personal identity crisis is a product of upbringing and psychological factors than to go off of "spiritually assigned gender", as one pagan put it.

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Nathan][FONT="Arial"']I can't say I care one way or the other. Usually what bothers me about people is attitudes and personality traits that make them either nice or a jerk. Not stuff that is more physical in nature. [/FONT][/quote]That's what it comes down to for me as well. So if someone is considered off based on society and so forth, so long as they aren't a jerk (which isn't gender specific) then I really don't care.

[Nessaja]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']That's what it comes down to for me as well. So if someone is considered off based on society and so forth, so long as they aren't a jerk (which isn't gender specific) then I really don't care.[/QUOTE]

I agree. That's the only way I try to judge people. Although I've seen the opposite happen a lot. (For example: 'Okay, Guy #1-5 were very nice but after just meeting Guy #6 and seeing how much of a jerk he is, I hate all guys from now on.)

Probably not the best example, but I've seen a lot of people who think that such things are gender specific. (If one guy is a jerk, all are jerks, etc.)

I guess you could look at slang for another example. If a guy manages to sleep around, he's a 'player'. But if a girl does the same, she's a 'slut'. So yeah, there are some attributes or other things that people do look at as being gender specific.

Not true with all people though (like you, Rachmaninoff and that is good.) But I don't like it when people get lazy and label someone some way because of their gender.