Prop 8

[Mr. Blonde]

[quote name='Aaryanna'][FONT="Tahoma"][COLOR="Sienna"].The law has [I]always[/I] been about what the people want, its why they bothered to establish a new country in the first place. Because they wanted to have a government that was different than what they grew up under. The process of giving the people a say in policy is all about giving people some measure of control over what types of laws are put into place. [/COLOR][/FONT][/QUOTE]

"The proposition that the people are the best keepers of their own liberties is not true. They are the worst conceivable, they are no keepers at all; they can neither judge, act, think, or will, as a political body."
-John Adams

People were not even given the right to vote until 1870 because they were deemed unqualified to make such judgements.

Enough said about about.

[quote name='Aaryanna'][FONT="Tahoma"][COLOR="Sienna"]
What you see as civil rights, in this case gay marriage, is something you and many others think shouldn't be decided by the vote of the people. Well so far the majority of the people don't see it as a civil right that they are entitled to. [/COLOR][/FONT][/QUOTE]

I'm just as tired of saying this as I'm sure you are of hearing it, but I don't care what the rest of the people see it as. Gay marriage is equal rights and to vote on it is a ghastly misinterpretation of the constitution and the liberties and freedoms it stands for. Countless times in this country we have deemed such actions of laws "unconstitutional", and it will only be a matter of time before this issue is seen as such. It's insulting to the homosexual population in this country, and to this nation as whole that considers itself "free".

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR="Sienna"][FONT="Tahoma"][QUOTE=Katakidoushi]"The proposition that the people are the best keepers of their own liberties is not true. They are the worst conceivable, they are no keepers at all; they can neither judge, act, think, or will, as a political body."
-John Adams

People were not even given the right to vote until 1870 because they were deemed unqualified to make such judgements.

Enough said about about.[/QUOTE]No it's not enough said and you're indirectly proving my point about change. About how it's a slow process. For starters your bit on the people not voting until 1870 is wrong. I'll explain.

When the Constitution was written, only white male property owners (about 10 to 16 percent of the nation's population) had the vote. During the early 1800s, states gradually dropped property requirements for voting. Later, groups that had been excluded previously gained the right to vote. Other reforms made the process fairer and easier. It was like a lot of government processes, a gradual one, a look at the timeline for voting rights shows that.

In 1790 only white male adult property-owners have the right to vote. A whole lot sooner than the 1870 you just declared. It may have been a small percentage, but it was more than just top leaders of the country.

By 1810 the last religious prerequisite for voting is eliminated. How ironic, further separation of government and religion.

By 1850 property ownership and tax requirements are eliminated. This meant that nearly all adult white males could vote.

Around 1855 Connecticut adopts the nation's first literacy test for voting. Massachusetts follows suit in 1857. The tests were implemented to discriminate against Irish-Catholic immigrants.

Now here comes the date you were insisting on, In 1870 the 15th Amendment is passed. It gives former slaves the right to vote and protects the voting rights of adult[B] male[/B] citizens of any race. It wasn't a sudden "now the people can vote deal" it was an expansion of an already existing voting system.

In 1890 Mississippi adopts a literacy test to keep African Americans from voting. No surprise there when you consider our history. Many other states, and not just in the south, also establish literacy tests.

The irony of that move was that the tests also exclude many whites from voting. To get around this, states added a grandfather clauses that allow those who could vote before 1870, or their descendants, to vote regardless of literacy or tax qualifications.

In 1913 the 17th Amendment calls for members of the U.S. Senate to be elected directly by the people instead of State Legislatures. More power to the people yes?

In 1915 Oklahoma was the last state to append a grandfather clause to its literacy requirement (1910). In Guinn v. United States the Supreme Court rules that the clause is in conflict with the 15th Amendment, thereby outlawing literacy tests for federal elections.

In 1920 the 19th Amendment guarantees women's suffrage. Way past the 1870 you quoted, since full voting rights, like a lot of things, was a slow process.

In 1924 Indian Citizenship Act grants all Native Americans the rights of citizenship, including the right to vote in federal elections.

In 1944 the Supreme Court outlaws "white primaries" in Smith v. Allwright (Texas). In Texas, and other states, primaries were conducted by private associations, which, by definition, could exclude whomever they chose. The Court declares the nomination process to be a public process bound by the terms of 15th Amendment.

And there's still more that I could quote. This is what I'm talking about, along with Allamorph, the process. While you and many others are focusing on what the end should be instead of looking more at the road to get there. Whether you think it's fair or not is irrelevant. What[I] is [/I]relevant is working through the system to change it. [quote name='Katakidoushi]I'm just as tired of saying this as I'm sure you are of hearing it, but [B]I don't care what the rest of the people see it as[/B']. Gay marriage is equal rights and to vote on it is a ghastly misinterpretation of the constitution and the liberties and freedoms it stands for. Countless times in this country we have deemed such actions of laws "unconstitutional", and it will only be a matter of time before this issue is seen as such. It's insulting to the homosexual population in this country, and to this nation as whole that considers itself "free".[/quote]You should care. Wrong or not, people are entitled to their opinion. Running around and accusing them of being hypocrites isn't going to help matters at all. Calm and rational application of due process and working through the system will. I've already said I don't agree with the bans being enacted. I just see no reason to get in a tizzy and be angry over something when it serves no purpose. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Mr. Blonde]

[quote name='Aaryanna'][COLOR="Sienna"][FONT="Tahoma"]I've already said I don't agree with the bans being enacted. I just see no reason to get in a tizzy and be angry over something when it serves no purpose. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Why would I focus on the road to get there? How has focusing on the road to get there ever brought about change? I'm aware of the road to get there, but I want to look past that road and try to make a difference, not accept that this is going to be a long and complicated process and twiddle my thumbs. We need to see the finish line and the recognition of civil rights to ever make a change in this country. I don't agree with being able to vote on them, so there it is. I don't believe it's right and I never will no matter how right you think it is. I don't know how many times I need to say that equal rights should not be voted on. I'm washing my hands of this argument because it's going no where. And people weren't given "the right" to vote in the constitution until 1870 (and that was my point, constitutional recognition of American rights, like civil rights... it all comes back around), but good research. There was a progression of voting rights enacted after that date as you've noted, and it's those rights that showed the struggle and time it takes to be considered truly equal. I believe the only way to achieve those rights is to look past the struggle, recognize the struggle... but look past it, and demand equality now.

EDIT: Everyone is entitled to their opinion and certainly their vote as an American citizen (in certain respects). I just hate to see that vote go towards the oppression of a group of people, especially on the same day that vote elected the first black president of the United States. It saddens me.

I'm done.

:mrt:

[Nathan]

[FONT="Arial"][quote name='Katakidoushi]Why would I focus on the road to get there? How has focusing on the road to get there ever brought about change? I'm aware of the road to get there, but I want to look past that road and try to make a difference, not accept that this is going to be a long and complicated process and twiddle my thumbs. [/QUOTE]Why would you think skipping an aspect of how legislation is done is somehow twitting one's thumbs? Looking past the road as you put it doesn't change the fact that you still have to [I]travel [/I]on it to get to your destination. There is no shortcut that lets one group bypass another, even these laws banning gay marriage had to go through a process just to be put up for a vote.[QUOTE=Katakidoushi]We need to see the finish line and the recognition of civil rights to ever make a change in this country. [/QUOTE]Seeing it doesn't equal automatically getting there. Seeing it only means you know where you want to be when you finish. You have your goal in mind. I'm pretty sure everyone here sees that just fine, just as they also see that there is no easy way to get there. [QUOTE=Katakidoushi'] I believe the only way to achieve those rights is to look past the struggle, recognize the struggle... but look past it, and demand equality now.[/quote]Instant gratification never works, ever. Everyone in here sees this except you.

So far everyone wants the same thing, the reversal of these laws that ban gay marriage. Seems kind of pointless to argue with people who want the same thing just because they aren't 'demanding' equal rights immediately.

When those who have tried the quick path that[I] doesn't exist[/I] throw up their hands in disgust and walk away, those who have the patience to battle the system will be the ones to 'make a difference' in the long run.[/FONT]

[Mr. Blonde]

[quote name='Nathan'][FONT="Arial"]Why would you think skipping an aspect of how legislation is done is somehow twitting one's thumbs? Looking past the road as you put it doesn't change the fact that you still have to [I]travel [/I]on it to get to your destination.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

Again I don't see this as a legislative step. And I don't see how voting on prop 8 is a neccesary step to legalizing gay marriage.


[quote name='Nathan'][FONT="Arial"]
Instant gratification never works, ever. Everyone in here sees this except you.
[/FONT][/QUOTE]
Of course it never works, but MLK didn't say, "Well we'll just have equal rights in 5-10 years, no problem." You have to work through the system but voting on Prop 8 is NOT working through the system, it's continuing the idea that gay rights is trivial enough of a subject to simply be swept under the rug. You must demand equality now so that in 5-10 years people will be familiar enough the with idea that it seems almost common place. It seems everyone else here would be just happy with this issue getting caught up in the system for another 20 years.

[quote name='Nathan'][FONT="Arial"]
When those who have tried the quick path that[I] doesn't exist[/I] throw up their hands in disgust and walk away, those who have the patience to battle the system will be the ones to 'make a difference' in the long run.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

Did I do this? no. I never once said anything about not "battling the system" but the system is in the courts, in appeals, in passing legislation to prevent such acts of voting on human rights from ever taking place, not voting on Prop 8. Most people on here have ghastly misinterpreted my point of view into some ignorant "give it to me now" stance. That's not the case. I just do not see Prop 8 as a step through the system, it's one of the many road blocks that must be thrown aside to work through the system. The sooner we start getting appauled at Prop 8 the sooner we can start to make a difference.

[Korey]

[quote name=' Katakidoushi']The sooner we start getting appalled at Prop 8 the sooner we can start to make a difference.[/quote]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]I'm sure lots of people are appalled at it already. However, we can't just sit as a nation and say we disagree with the law, but also, we have to go about it in the ways that the system puts out for us. People have been protesting this before the election, during the election and after it....so there are some things being done. The point I'm trying to make here is that we can protest, we can demand things to be done, we can post on message boards, sign petitions....etc but unless it goes through the system that was set out over two centuries ago, nothing will be done. It took the African American people over 100 years to get their civil rights granted to them. Women fought for suffrage rights for over 80 years before they were allowed to vote. This isn't something that is just gonna happen, regardless of how many times homosexual people have parades. The battles need to be won in Congress, in the Courts....not on the picket lines.[/FONT]

[Mr. Blonde]

[quote name='Korey'][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"] The battles need to be won in Congress, in the Courts....not on the picket lines.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

The picket lines are the catalyst for it being fought in Congress and the courts. Nothing would ever be done if people didn't protest the situation. The battle will be won in the courts, but the protest I believe is just as important of a step in the process.

This subject matter, and anything dealing with other people's rights is a fickle beast. Everyone has a different opinion on how it should be handled and the steps that are to be taken in that process. Some are more patient than others, but the important thing is that the sentiment is there. However I do believe that it is the people that demand, not ask, not hope, but demand equality in every aspect of law that will make a difference. This battle must ultimately be decided in the courts and in the Congress, but until then we can stand up and say that things are not how they should be, voting on human rights is unacceptable, and that every American should have the same oppurtunities as their brethern.

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]...Okay, so I didn't exactly read all the replies. I'm not sure I wanted to, considering the debate between people going on. ^^;;

Anyway, I'm against Prop 8. Did anyone go to one of the major rallies? I'm near Philly, so I know a few people who went to that. We're having our own little march on campus tomorrow, to promote awareness of what the heck is actually going on, and informing people about the situation.

Also, just quickly, I saw something about hypocrites, I believe posted by MaskedRider (OMG, Kamen Rider, woo!!!). I read something interesting the other day. The number of times Jesus codemns homosexuality: zero. The number of times he condemns hypocrites: sixteen.[/color]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Katakidoushi;] And I don't see how voting on prop 8 is a neccesary step to legalizing gay marriage. [/QUOTE]Not one person here has said that prop 8 was necessary. The only thing they have eluded to was that it only proved that a concession or rather granting gay marriage rights was necessary. To prevent states from passing legislation like that.[QUOTE=Katakidoushi;']It seems everyone else here would be just happy with this issue getting caught up in the system for another 20 years. [/quote]Now you're just being silly. By realizing it's going to take a genuine legal battle to get rights for all gays doesn't mean anyone is 'happy' it only means we've realized that it can't be undone so easily.

Don't go assuming that anyone here is okay with gay's being denied marriage just because we don't seem to be as riled up as others are on the topic. You're assuming that we aren't disgusted with it because we're not saying much. When it's really a case where we find being involved in things like this, a better use of our time.

[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/11gay.html"][U]Gay Leaders in Utah Plan 5-Bill Attack in Legislature[/U][/URL]

I see work like that as being far more useful than ranting on a message board. By taking the steps necessary to work on getting those rights that were taken away restored, it's doing something to reverse what was done. Being calm doesn't mean we've accepted it, only that like Aaryanna said, we see no reason to get in a tizzy and be angry over something when it serves no purpose.

[Mr. Blonde]

There are no tizzies, Rach. We're A-OK over here. I agree that ranting on a message board is no way to get things done. I didn't mean to imply that people didn't care, and I realize that people may not feel as passionate about the political process as I do, and may not get involved in such matters as I do, so in that respect I can understand what may be construed as a lack of caring may just be a lack of interest in political matters. However people on here have said they agree with the vote, maybe not the result, but the vote. So I'm not pulling this out of thin air.

When as I was at my city council meeting last night I was actually one of the more calming members there. When you put someone infused in the political mindset along side people who it doesn't interest as much... I may seem like a raving lunatic, but I'm snuggles the fabric softener bear in a political environment, well maybe not quite.

However I still do stand by my previous statement. The only acceptable action is equal rights now.

Will it happen? No, I'm aware of reality, but it doesn't mean I won't irritate the hell out of my congressmen and senators until I get an answer out of them.

I'm aware concessions must be made ultimately and that it takes a long time to be considered truly equal in the eyes of the government and the people.

[Korey]

[quote name='Katakidoushi']There are no tizzies, Rach. We're A-OK over here. I agree that ranting on a message board is no way to get things done. I didn't mean to imply that people didn't care, and I realize that people may not feel as passionate about the political process as I do, and may not get involved in such matters as I do, so in that respect I can understand what may be construed as a lack of caring may just be a lack of interest in political matters. However people on here have said they agree with the vote, maybe not the result, but the vote. So I'm not pulling this out of thin air.[/quote]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Well, the way I see it is like this: People are going to think the way they do. Just because I'd rather sit and watch my brother's wrestling meet in a gym doesn't mean I'm not involved in the political process or don't get involved in such matters. It's not a lack of interest, but a preference in priority.

Now agree with the vote? Sure, I'm glad that people even GOT to vote for something that mattered to them. Certainly different from having the state legislature just pass the law n'est-ce pas? Now, do I feel the people made an error in judgement? Yeah. But what's done is done and we now have to go through the right steps to getting the laws repealed or even prohibited from being passed.[/FONT]

[quote name='Katakidoushi']The only acceptable action is equal rights now.[/quote]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]With the current problems in our nation, I'm sure that's a problem that's worth addressing, but not on the top of my political agenda. Equal rights is all well and good, but when our nation is struck with poverty and the masses are losing jobs left and right, I'm sure we'd all be happy we were equal. [/sarcasm][/FONT]

[Mr. Blonde]

[quote name='Korey']

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]With the current problems in our nation, I'm sure that's a problem that's worth addressing, but not on the top of my political agenda. Equal rights is all well and good, but when our nation is struck with poverty and the masses are losing jobs left and right, I'm sure we'd all be happy we were equal. [/sarcasm][/FONT][/QUOTE]

We shouldn't have to pick and choice which issues we want addressed. President Obama will be appointing 7,000 new people under his direct supervision. And then also you have the senate, the house, the governors, mayors. There are more then enough government aids to address all of this country's ills. Maybe if this issue affected you directly you would feel different concerning the matter.

[Korey]

[quote name='Katakidoushi']We shouldn't have to pick and choice which issues we want addressed. President Obama will be appointing 7,000 new people under his direct supervision. And then also you have the senate, the house, the governors, mayors. There are more then enough government aids to address all of this country's ills. Maybe if this issue affected you directly you would feel different concerning the matter.[/quote]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Well the thing is, Congress sets the issues it wants to address for the nation and in what order. Same goes for any legislative body. We can protest all we want, but the people that the citizens elected get to set the political agenda and address the nation's needs as they see fit. I feel that our nation's economy is more important than gay rights at this point in time.

As far as the issue affecting me directly, it still wouldn't change my mindset on what needs to be done. We can't have the necessary things if we don't have jobs. Don't assume just because I'm heterosexual that I'm ignorant to this issue. Texas had a law or two that got passed in regards to homosexual couples, but the thing is....I feel that the economy, ending the war, lowering tuition rates, making colleges more affordable...etc is more important to me than gay rights.

My opinion, my views.[/FONT]

[Mr. Blonde]

[quote name='Korey'][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]I feel that the economy, ending the war, lowering tuition rates, making colleges more affordable...etc is more important to me than gay rights.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

Those are all great issues that should be addressed by the new administration, but that mindset is the exact reason gay rights have been ignored in this country. Everyone has their own issues and things that affect them in their own lives will most likely be the issues that concern them the most, I understand this. Personally all of the things you listed would have a greater positive impact on my life than the legalization of gay marriage (especially tuition rates, yikes). That is the mindset of most people, but it should not be the mindset of our political leaders (though it most likely is at the moment). This vote came at a bad time for homosexual Americans. With the rest of the countries woes, this issue will most likely be set aside for the foreseeable future.

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Katakidoushi'] However people on here have said they agree with the vote, maybe not the result, but the vote. So I'm not pulling this out of thin air.[/quote]No, you're pulling what you want to see out of it. The result is irrelevant, so on that we are agreed. However the actual process of each state, with the help of the people, determining state policy/legislation isn't the problem. This is what we approve of, not the actual ban on gay marriage. There's a big difference, obviously.

But you can't just declare something is a violation of rights so easily. You said you don't care what others think and that attitude, even if I agree that those rights shouldn't be voted on, is wrong in so many ways.

What we don't approve of is them using said system to enact laws like prop 8 or any other deal that bans gay marriage. They are doing this because they don't care what gays think since they see it as wrong. An attitude just as dangerous as your own.

This is not something that will change so easily, especially when you consider that Virginia started by prohibiting it back in 1975 only to have that overturned to allow civil unions in 1999 and then later in 2007, those rights were overturned...

And other states such as Alaska and Hawaii jumped on the bandwagon in 1998 and were followed by other states... So in the end, I'm more interested in getting those rights protected on a federal level so no state can pass such legislation.

Nathan said it and history proves it, the more one group uses the law to oppress another group, the more obvious it becomes that something needs to be done to reverse the damage and then prevent it from happening again.

I don't know when that will happen, no one does. After all, no fight like this has ever been easy.

[Mr. Blonde]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff'][B]What we don't approve of is them using said system to enact laws like prop 8 or any other deal that bans gay marriage[/B]. They are doing this because they don't care what gays think since they see it as wrong. An attitude just as dangerous as your own.
[/QUOTE]

I have no problem with voting what-so-ever. The right to vote is the backbone of our democracy. My stance this entire time has been against using the system to vote against gay marriage. So right now I'm struggling to see where you and I disagree. Others on here have said they approve of the vote, but like I said dissaprove of the outcome.

I'm not quite sure how my attitude is dangerous, I seem to share the same sentiment as you. I don't approve of voting on gay marriage. The reason I "don't care what people think" regarding the matter simply means I don't think a vote should be cast regarding this matter, something you seem to agree with.

I never said I don't approve of the system, I said I disapprove of the system being used in this manner. Somewhere along the line my point of view may have gotten misinterpreted.

This argument has gone on for so long it's almost completely out of its original context.

To be clear: The thing I disagree with is using voting to inhibit gay marriage, that's all.

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Mr. Blonde']To be clear: The thing I disagree with is using voting to inhibit gay marriage, that's all.[/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Which means that as long as the proposition had been voted [I]down[/I], you would have said nothing about voting whatsoever.

Or in other words, people should have the right to vote as long as they vote the way [I]you[/I] want them to vote, and otherwise no one should be able to.

You said you were done before. So right now all you're doing is shoving your foot farther down your throat. Ain't nobody here against you, man. Not even the [I]system[/I] is against you. Take a breather, a'ight?

...unless you don't mind entertaining us like that. That's totally cool, too. (^_^)[/FONT]

[Mr. Blonde]

[quote name='Mr. Blonde']The reason I "don't care what people think" regarding the matter simply means I don't think a vote should be cast regarding this matter, something you seem to agree with.

I never said I don't approve of the system, I said I disapprove of the system being used in this manner. Somewhere along the line my point of view may have gotten misinterpreted.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]Which means that as long as the proposition had been voted [I]down[/I], you would have said nothing about voting whatsoever.
[/FONT][/QUOTE]

Now you're just nitpicking on the manner on which I state things, really, Allamorph? I believe you knew what I meant. Apparently there is nothing more to add to this conversation except off the cuff remarks.

Perhaps we should all take a breather, this is going no where.

[Korey]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]Which means that as long as the proposition had been voted [I]down[/I], you would have said nothing about voting whatsoever.
[/QUOTE]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Actually he brings up a good point here. Not personally against you, Mr. Blonde, but for the whole charade that's going on right now. None of this would have been an issue had the prop been voted down.[/FONT]

[quote name='Mr. Blonde']Those are all great issues that should be addressed by the new administration, but that mindset is the exact reason gay rights have been ignored in this country. Everyone has their own issues and things that affect them in their own lives will most likely be the issues that concern them the most, I understand this. Personally all of the things you listed would have a greater positive impact on my life than the legalization of gay marriage (especially tuition rates, yikes). That is the mindset of most people, but it should not be the mindset of our political leaders (though it most likely is at the moment). This vote came at a bad time for homosexual Americans. With the rest of the countries woes, this issue will most likely be set aside for the foreseeable future.[/quote]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Well, I wouldn't say that the issue has been ignored or put on the back burner, but it certainly hasn't been at the forefront of the nation's political agenda either. With the War on Terror, the Bailouts, the ever present Ecological problems, Gas prices (which are down to under $2 now in west Texas, huzzah!) and the like, Gay rights has had to wait its turn in line. If we could get the economy straight, get the war issue settled, and fix some of the problems that were caused by the current administration, then perhaps we can focus on these domestic issues and give the homosexual people the rights they deserve as Americans.[/FONT]

[Mr. Blonde]

[quote name='Korey'][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Actually he brings up a good point here. Not personally against you, Mr. Blonde, but for the whole charade that's going on right now. None of this would have been an issue had the prop been voted down.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

It is quite a charade now isn't it? You're quite right, Korey, I most likely would not have posted this thread if the vote had gone in the other direction, but that would have been my error, because this issue deserves equal attention either way.

[quote name='Korey'][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]If we could get the economy straight, get the war issue settled, and fix some of the problems that were caused by the current administration, then perhaps we can focus on these domestic issues and give the homosexual people the rights they deserve as Americans.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

Well said, and when it comes down to it... that's what we all want. We may differ on how to go about it, but in the end the recognition of equal rights is a sentiment we all share.

All of this hot air (including my own) is giving me a headache. I need a soothing melody. Where's Rach with his cello when you need him?

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Mr. Blonde]Well said, and when it comes down to it... that's what we all want. We may differ on how to go about it, but in the end the recognition of equal rights is a sentiment we all share.[/QUOTE]That about sums it up in my opinion. [QUOTE=Mr. Blonde']All of this hot air (including my own) is giving me a headache. I need a soothing melody. Where's Rach with his cello when you need him?[/quote]Here: [URL="http://cdbaby.com/cd/julietanner"][U]Cello Prayers[/U][/URL] Because I can guarantee you that I'll always be elsewhere. School, work, homework, spending time with my girlfriend, etc.

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]Just some humor because the thread needs it. =P

[CENTER][IMG]http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/gaymarriage.gif[/IMG][/CENTER]
Seriously though, other than to disagree with not allowing them to marry, I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said many times. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[TimeChaser]

And a bit more topical humor: [B][U][URL="http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/c0cf508ff8/prop-8-the-musical-starring-jack-black-john-c-reilly-and-many-more-from-fod-team-jack-black-craig-robinson-john-c-reilly-and-rashida-jones"]Proposition 8 - The Musical[/URL][/U][/B]

Featuring Jack Black and Neil Patrick Harris, among others.