not MORE political talk!!!

[Neko]

[SIZE="1"]Sorry if this has been done to death and you're tired of it, guys, but I've been sitting here in the dark since the campaign even started, and voted for Obama mainly due to how strongly his speeches resounded with my own ideals.

This is NOT a 'Who's better than who' spamfest. I'll repeat that again, in bigger text, to make it perfectly clear.
[SIZE="3"]
This is NOT a 'Who's better than who' spamfest.[/SIZE]

I wanna talk about economics. At least, I THINK I do.

See, here's the deal. During the campaign, a lot of kids at school were complaining that Obama's policies were going to turn America into socialism. A lot of [I]other[/I] kids retaliated against this statement by saying that McCain's policies were like communism. And here I am, in the middle of all this, because I'm not well-enough informed in the subject to make an opinion of my own.

What this thread is about is the sources, numbers, and theories behind these statements. I know that these claims are probably ridiculous, but nonetheless, even a misfounded opinion has its basis somewhere, and I'd like to know what those stems are.

Now, I know that politics and the economy is a bit of a spiky subject, but I don't want anyone to come in here and start a ruckus. This is nothing more than a presentation of opinion, or impartial evaluation of these said opinions. While you present your side of the facts, present them making these assumption that you're talking to the average, uninformed kid (I.E. me).

I am 18 years old, a normal college student, and damn near failed economics. Present your case thusly.[/SIZE]

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]For my first magic trick...

[URL="http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/index.htm"]A citation of a not FOX news source from an admitted conservative.[/URL]

In short, the two were not very dissimilar. I don't think Obama planned on implementing socialism via tax policy, or at least that's not what he said. What he's going to do however is entirely up to him and his evil overlord mas- I'm kidding. Actually right now it's hard to formulate an opinion on him because he doesn't make a habit of speaking very plainly about his stances on everything. Now that he's been elected however, we'll find out what he's really going to do to back up his stump speeches.

If these tax plans are to be believed, then me in my nice boring, under 20k a year bracket wouldn't be affected anyway. I'd get my theoretical tax cuts if I actually paid taxes. But my philosophy on taxes is grounded in common sense economics, which is pretty much like saying 'I don't care about poor people' when it's explained fully. I believe in a non progressive tax. In a phrase? The Fair Tax. A tax that doesn't come from paychecks, which means no FICA, no Medicare, no Medicaid, no government programs taxing you based on your income. It, as in It the Non partisan bill can be found[URL="http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_main"]here.[/URL]

My considered opinion, after taking high school economics, and upper division socio-political psychobabble classes in college is that income based taxes are ponderous, unwieldy, and an affront to personal freedom. Statistically the higher the nation's taxes, the more unhappy their market is. Take Sweden. 60%+ income tax. Great public schools. Not so great GDP. I also believe that the current tax system in place in the U.S. punishes those who are considered by the less wealthy [and thus easily manipulated] to be "stinking filthy rich." When my fiction class was having a post election talk someone said: "I'm glad Obama was elected because now he'll tax the f--- out of those damn rich people."

Even though I come from a poor/lower middle class family, I'm not sure I understand the logic behind taxing the people who write your paychecks. My boss makes at least 200k a year, and he pays at least 50% in taxes right now under the current policies. I'm not sure why the government feels the need to tax the living daylights out of him, because it's always seemed to me like a punishment for being successful. Now some people might view it as merely making things 'equal' by unequally taxing the rich because they can 'afford' it. But overtaxing the rich generally makes the rich flee the country. Punishing capital makes capital leave the places it could do good things in. When companies are taxed and regulated into the ground, they go overseas and then get blasted for not staying in the U.S. to be brutalized further. Rich people can afford offshore accounts, houses that aren't in the US. But then again, all of my philosophies on economics stem from the belief that money isn't a zero sum game, and that money isn't an evil that needs to be excised from people's wallets.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[TimeChaser]

The socialist charge against Obama was totally unfounded, just more crass political mudslinging.

The point is that we are not supposed to be a society that has a gaping chasm between the rich and everyone else. We are falling back to where we were at 100+ years ago, with barely anything resembling a middle class.

It doesn't take a genius to realize the Reagan ideal of trickle-down economics does not work. The rich are not investing that money in ways that benefit the rest of us. It's one of those ideas that works better in theory than practice because of the inherent foibles and selfishness of people.

I want to include some statistic that highlight just how poor the economic situation in America has become. This is a ratio of salaries paid to top-tier CEOs and those paid to the average employees of their firms:
Britain - 24:1
France - 15:1
Sweden - 13:1
USA - [U]475:1[/U]

[Raiha]

[quote name='TimeChaser']The socialist charge against Obama was totally unfounded, just more crass political mudslinging.

It doesn't take a genius to realize the Reagan ideal of trickle-down economics does not work. The rich are not investing that money in ways that benefit the rest of us. It's one of those ideas that works better in theory than practice because of the inherent foibles and selfishness of people.
[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Totally unfounded would imply that there was nothing even remotely akin to socialism anywhere in Obama's plans for the economy and society. However it is possible to say that Obama has some plans that lean more towards socialism than capitalism. Such a statement can be made without falling into crass political mudslinging.

You say that the rich don't invest money in ways that benefit the rest of us, but that's their prerogative. The government can not compel the rich to invest their money in a way that would benefit all. That isn't to say that it can't try, but that generally doesn't work out so well. In spite of the fact that rich people can run businesses to benefit themselves, occasionally their quest to make money benefits others. And labeling every person in a certain income bracket as a bad person or a selfish ******* is generally an assumption made by the bitter, jealous, or near sighted.

If you could explain your view a little further, I'd be interested. And I mean that nicely. I'm not sure if you're implying that the government can fix selfishness in businesses or not. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Neko'][SIZE="1"]I am 18 years old, a normal college student, and damn near failed economics. Present your case thusly.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]My case in this matter would be to tell you to look around and read up on things instead of asking others here to explain it to you. The problem with going to someone else is that no matter how hard they try, their view will be skewered to some extent.

There are plenty of sites out there, and by sites I mean going straight to the source such as government sites (see there's my personal slant/skewered view that I was just talking about, I'll take official sources over word of mouth/opinion any day) or other sites/articles that explain the differences in taxes and other aspects that effect the economy.

It requires more work than reading our posts, but in the long run, you'll learn a whole lot more than if you simply take our word for it. And in my opinion, you'll be better informed in the process.

[Neko]

[SIZE="1"]I agree that going straight to the source would probably be the best choice to get the most accurate information, but the problem that I tend to have with these sights is that they have a tendency to talk about subjects and people, and use terminology that can't be easily understood by someone who hasn't been kept up to date with (or, indeed, doesn't know a thing about) the goings-on of the political and economic front.

That's why I got the idea to come out of my little hole over in the Cultural District a few sub-forums over to ask you guys to explain it in a simple, easy-for-anybody-to-follow manner. I've been very pleased, and I believe I've learned a few things from those who've taken the time of day to stop and explain the situation to me. Thank you. :catgirl:[/SIZE]

[Mr. Blonde]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"] I believe in a non progressive tax. In a phrase? The Fair Tax. A tax that doesn't come from paychecks, which means no FICA, no Medicare, no Medicaid, no government programs taxing you based on your income.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I actually agree with you on this, however the people in the lower income tax brackets will have to pay more to offset the reduction in taxes being received from the people in the top tax bracket. That's always been one of the draw backs of a flat tax. Unfortunately our dimishing middle class cannot afford a hike in the tax rate at the moment. And as far as rolling all of payroll taxation into sales tax... The sales tax in some states is already obsenely high (Tennessee 9.4%, Louisiana 8.7%, Washington 8.5%, New York, 8%) The price of goods is already going through the roof with the cost of oil (though lower at the moment) and manufacturing rising. A flat tax sounds good on paper, but we've written ourselves into a corner with a progressive tax and it's going to be nearly impossible to get ourselves out for some time.

[quote name='Aaryanna_Mom']My case in this matter would be to tell you to look around and read up on things instead of asking others here to explain it to you. The problem with going to someone else is that no matter how hard they try, their view will be skewered to some extent.[/QUOTE]

I'll avoid my usual rant that will result in my receiving a warning or someone crying and just say that I agree with Aaryanna. Check out the Tax Policy Center Website and other non-bias sources. Anything you get from a media source is going to have some amount of liberal or conservative slant to it.

[TimeChaser]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]And labeling every person in a certain income bracket as a bad person or a selfish ******* is generally an assumption made by the bitter, jealous, or near sighted.

If you could explain your view a little further, I'd be interested. And I mean that nicely. I'm not sure if you're implying that the government can fix selfishness in businesses or not. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I didn't say every person in a higher tax bracket, I'm just saying that the system is unequally balanced.

Also, Mr. Blonde beat me to a good explanation.

The point I make is, especially with the middle class hurting so much and starting to dwindle due to the horrible state of the economy, why should the people who already have oodles of money be given the tax breaks, when all the rest who have to bear more of the burden are given practically nothing in the way of relief?

[The13thMan]

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Don't worry, pal, I'm in the same boat as you. I don't know crap about politics, and i'm damn proud of it! Well, maybe not that proud. Whenever someone asks me my opinion on politics i simply tell them that i don't like politics. I typically try to be as pretentious as possible when i say that and i may even throw in some negative political cliche. Politics is just a bunch of liars lying to one another in a broken system, etc. Of course, that doesn't mean i don't care about the subjects.

Anyways, i don't have any idea how to answer your question... i think AM had a good idea of trying to get to the source of the info. Good luck on your search for the truth. If you find it, please spread it along. [/FONT]