Israeli Gaza Offensive

[Raiha]

[quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']I know this is not always avoidable, and maybe they were housing rocket sites, but there are other ways and Israel knows it. They just prefer the pure unadultrated agression approach.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]I'm not sure I'm following your logic here. Rockets into Israel. Clearly the response is to talk things through with people who have no intention of making peace in return. Everyone's laying the blame as Israel's feet as if they haven't tried the peaceful approach. They gave up Gaza, they gave up territory and what was their reward? More rockets. Into the homes of Israeli civilians.

So you'll pardon me and most other logic embracing people for calling the 400 killed a casualty of war. War is never pretty, but it's necessary to end a greater evil, and in this case that's Hamas using their own people as posterboys to build up sympathy in the national press and get what they want. A picture of a crying Palestinian child gets you more international aid money which won't go to the people, it'll just go to fund more rockets and more terror on the part of Hamas. You can't complain about an aggressive response when Israel has quietly laid themselves down and let the rockets get fired into their behinds for years without a response.

Israel is doing exactly what it has to do to ensure that their people will no longer be threatened. You don't have to like it to understand it. And all this noise about 'disproportionate' response is just the mindset of someone who doesn't understand how wars have to be won.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Drizzt Do'urden]

Now you're splitting hairs. You're saying its okay that 400 civilians died when only a fraction of that amount that were actual radicals that were firing missiles. Boy that really sounds like somebody people who embrace logic would agree with. As I said in my FULL post civilian casualties ARE often unavoidable. Please make sure if you're going to make an argument and use a quote, you quote everything that you're going to jump on.

And sure there are better ways then to launch attacks into civilian territory. By the way, firing weapons that are unbiased such as uncontrollable rockets into civilian territory IS violating the geneva convention and international laws if you want to get into specifics.

Israel is almost a military equivilant to us, so the "otherways" I was refering to were the hundreds of different types of smart weapons that they do possess. Instead they choose to dive down to the level of their attackers. And you can go on about how why should they care if palestine is allowing hamas to opperate within their borders, why should they care about killing civilinas.

Well then I ask you, why shouldn't we have just bombed Afghanistan to hell and not cared who we hurt? They were harboring terrorists that attacked us, and I'm wondering if over 500 Israelis were ever killed in a rocket attack? Well that would be hard to believe since for every 1 Israeli citizen killed something like 40 Palestinian civilians are killed in retaliation.

[James]

[quote]The only way Israel will get any peace is if it makes peace. But peace is hard. War is easy. So war is being waged.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Peace is hard, but war is never easy. War is an especially difficult decision, because it can (and regularly does) place much greater stresses on a situation.

You may be aware that the recent cease-fire between Israel and Hamas was due to lapse. Israel - and the international community - pushed for an extension of it. Hamas responded to that request by firing a large number of missiles into Israel in a single day - I believe the figure was about 80. I can get that number for you.

Unfortunately peace requires strong effort on both sides. While I believe that the Palestineans and the Palestinean Authority under Abbas both desire peace and wish to compromise for it, I [i]know[/i] that peace is not Hamas's objective.

Are you aware that Hamas's founding principles - their charter or constitution, if you will - refers to the essential need to destroy the State of Israel?

Peace can not be achieved by continuing a conflict, I agree. However, peace [i]definitely[/i] can't be achieved when one side's stated goal is to eliminate the other.

Hamas must recognize Israel's right to exist before peace can occur. If this fundamental step is reached, you will see a marked change in the behaviour of both sides.[/font]

[quote]Hamas is really not a threat to Israel or its citizens. The rockets are more a nuisance than anything else. More people die on the roads in Israel each month alone than have died in 7 years of rocket fire.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]By that logic, September 11th was meaningless because far more people in America die each year as part of the road toll or health issues related to obesity.

That logic is a fallacy for numerous reasons. You can't suggest that acts of terrorism against civilians are "a nuisance" simply because the death toll is lower than some other series of events.

Significantly, a key ingredient to terrorism is the "terror" aspect - the intent to cause distress and fear.

These rockets hit housing, schools and other public areas. Whether or not they kill anyone is less relevant than the fact that they're being fired in such numbers initially.[/font]

[quote]No the 'reason' for the war lies elsewhere. Israel wants to change the ground situation before Obama takes office (because Israel knows that Bush will gladly follow Israel to the gates of Hell). There is also an election in Israel coming up next month and no Israeli politician has suffered by being 'too hard' on Hamas.
[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]You may be surprised. Many in the Government believe that the ruling party will actually lose out by engaging in military conflict so close to an election.

Moreover, to get back to the cease-fire, are you also aware that during this period, Hamas was found to be digging a major tunnel underneath the border? The tunnel was to be used to facilitate larger attacks deeper within Israeli territory.

Israel destroyed this tunnel and Hamas responded with the 80 rockets that I mentioned earlier.

Firstly, Hamas has no right to claim those rocket attacks as self-defense, when their tunnel was an aggressive act.

Secondly, what organization attempts to attack its neighbour [i]during a mutually-agreed cease-fire[/i]?[/font]

[quote]They had democracy, the people elected Hamas. But the US and Israel cannot accept the Palestinian peoples' choice so they tried to stage a coup (the US and Israel supported Fatah in its attemppts to overthrow Hamas in the Gaza). The coup failed, Hamas' control strengthened. So they tried to starve Hamas by punishing the entire 1.5 million people in Gaza, i.e. closing the borders, basically like a medieval siege. That has been going on for months, actually over a year now. And now they take it a step further and wage a war. The irony? The US wants democracy but only when the people elect the government the US likes.
[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]There are a few problems with this assertion.

Yes, Hamas was elected to power. But so was Hitler. Winning one election does not somehow add legitimacy to the actions of an authority in every case.

In addition, the US and Israel are once again blamed for the suffering of the Palestineans - despite the fact that Hamas itself has exhausted itself attempting to destroy its neighbour, rather than preparing its territory for democratic governance.

Nobody asks this simple question: Instead of spending so much energy and resources acquiring weapons and planning attacks against a neighbouring country, why hasn't Hamas invested the [i]same[/i] energy in supporting its own people in preparation for a future Palestinean State?

Put simply, Hamas clearly has no interest in real governance. It has done nothing to improve the lives of its people and instead continues down a path that only further aggrivates the living conditions of its people.

As I said, these energies should be invested in bettering the conditions within its territory. It is horrific - and frankly heart-breaking - that the opposite is occurring.[/font]

[quote]Why was Hamas peppering Israel with these silly rockets? Precisely to draw this kind of reaction. Hamas can then get an excellent PR deal, and afterwards they can always claim victory. There is no downside for them because this is a political and not a military problem. Hamas WANTS Israel to overreact.
[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Right, so you've just explained the legitimacy of Hamas by referring to the fact that it was elected.

Yet now you're admitting that Hamas's intention is to provoke further conflict.

Well, yes, it did that by firing "silly" rockets into its neighbour's territory. And now its neighbour is rightfully responding, after continuous months of attempting to ignore the problem.[/font]

[quote]So why does Israel fall for this ruse? Because there is no downside for the Israeli politicians by being 'hard' on Hamas. Everybody gets what they want. Except the thousands of civilians getting caught in the crossfire.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Israel tolerated these attacks for a long time, while still honoring the cease-fire that it agreed to.

After months of rocket bombardment, Israel has had enough and is now attempting to reduce Hamas's capacity to attack it further.

Admittedly war is horrific and it breaks my heart to see the terrible suffering among the Palestinean people. I can not use strong enough words to express this - when I see footage and images of little Palestinean children being rushed to hospital and having no understanding of what's happening, it makes me want to cry. It is absolutely a true horror of the worst kind.

And yet, I feel even worse when I think that the elected authority is facilitating and encouraging this terrible war, when it could change matters simply by recognizing Israel and ceasing its attacks.

That, truly, is the greatest tragedy for the long-suffering Palestinean people.[/font]

[Rachmaninoff]

[QUOTE=James][font=franklin gothic medium]Are you aware that Hamas's founding principles - their charter or constitution, if you will - refers to the essential need to destroy the State of Israel?

Peace can not be achieved by continuing a conflict, I agree. However, peace [i]definitely[/i] can't be achieved when one side's stated goal is to eliminate the other.

Hamas must recognize Israel's right to exist before peace can occur. If this fundamental step is reached, you will see a marked change in the behaviour of both sides.[/font][/quote]That always makes me shake my head when people get on Israel's case for wanting to put an end to the rockets. I honestly get tired of the constant [I]poor me[/I] cries from Hamas when they bring it upon themselves, and their citizens who they don't seem to give a damn about. What with all their idiotic actions and drive to destroy Israel.[QUOTE=James][font=franklin gothic medium]Yes, Hamas was elected to power. But so was Hitler. Winning one election does not somehow add legitimacy to the actions of an authority in every case.

In addition, the US and Israel are once again blamed for the suffering of the Palestineans - despite the fact that Hamas itself has exhausted itself attempting to destroy its neighbour, rather than preparing its territory for democratic governance.

Nobody asks this simple question: Instead of spending so much energy and resources acquiring weapons and planning attacks against a neighbouring country, why hasn't Hamas invested the [i]same[/i] energy in supporting its own people in preparation for a future Palestinean State?

Put simply, Hamas clearly has no interest in real governance. It has done nothing to improve the lives of its people and instead continues down a path that only further aggrivates the living conditions of its people..[/font][/quote]I've always wondered about that too. It seems to me that the one truly failing the Palestinians is their own government. They've dragged everyone there into their own pointless agenda of attempting to destroy Israel. Instead of actually doing more to take care of their own people. :/[quote=James][font=franklin gothic medium]Israel tolerated these attacks for a long time, while still honoring the cease-fire that it agreed to.

After months of rocket bombardment, Israel has had enough and is now attempting to reduce Hamas's capacity to attack it further.

Admittedly war is horrific and it breaks my heart to see the horrific suffering among the Palestinean people. I can not use strong enough words to express this - when I see footage and images of little Palestinean children being rushed to hospital and having no understanding of what's happening, it makes me want to cry. It is absolutely a true horror of the worst kind.

And yet, I feel even worse when I think that the elected authority is facilitating adn encouraging this terrible war, when it could change matters simply be recognizing Israel and ceasing its attacks.

That, truly, is the greatest tragedy for the long-suffering Palestinean people.[/font][/QUOTE]That's the greatest irony of all. Israel was the one honoring the cease fire and yet now that they're working to end the pointless attacks, they're the one that people are yelling at. I find that really sad actually, that so many people have no problem whatsoever thinking it's okay for them to be attacked regularly just because only a few people have been killed.

[SunfallE]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]I've been reading up on this and came across this little bit here:[quote][FONT="Arial"]Israel and its supporters argue that there is no equivalence ? they have been rocketed for years before their patience ran out. For Hamas, their charter states their goal ? [U]to destroy Israel[/U].[/FONT][/quote]Uh... yeah. Kind of hard to just ignore someone who has every intention of destroying you. That puts any claim of legitimacy out the window in my opinion. There is no middle ground if the opponent is openly declaring that one of their goals is to ensure your destruction.

Maybe if Hamas wasn't digging tunnels, firing rockets and didn't declare in their own charter or constitution that they need to destroy the state of Israel... I might actually feel inclined to believe Israel is wrong.

If they want it to stop, they need to stop aggressively attacking Israel in the first place. Instead of provoking them and then crying foul when Israel retaliates. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Raunsgaard]

I don't even want to continue the discussion here since my chances of convincing anybody here of my points of view are more or less zero, so I'll just keep my debates at home among friends and relatives and in the local community where I can actually make some difference :>

However the last thing I want to say is simple; For gods (whichever god or greater conscious being you prefer) sake stop violating international human rights...
That goes for USA, my home country Denmark (although we don't torture people like others we still send people home to their contries where they will get tortured), Isreal, Palistina, China and any country in the world.

[James]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I think everybody wants to see an end to human rights violations.

But it's important to note the difference between these violations being a way of life, versus isolated incidents that don't reflect the representative country.

As always, perspective is important.

While a lot of what has been said here about Israel/Hamas is true, I also don't think anyone would suggest that Israel has been perfect or somehow above reproach for all this time - certainly the Israeli Government has done things that are highly questionable.

However, again, we're discussing the here and now and what is behind the current situation. In reality this entire thing can go in circles forever.

What matters most, I think, is the understanding that certain conditions are needed for true peace. As it's been put earlier in this thread, peace is tough - very tough.[/font]

[Tophel]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Retaliation to threat, in this case rockets, is perfectly legitimate under any law. Furthermore, there is no provision ANYWHERE in the HISTORY of war for "proportional" response.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Then you must not be looking very hard. The right of every country to self-defense in the UN Charter goes hand in hand with the responsibility to do so in a proportional way. This does NOT mean if you lob a rocket I lob a rocket. It DOES mean that if you lob a rocket that, on average, kills A SINGLE PERSON A YEAR, I don't have the right to to launch a massive invasion with warplanes and tanks that kills 500+ and injures 2000+, many of whom are unarmed civilians.

[quote name='Aaryanna'][COLOR="Sienna"][FONT="Tahoma"][B]lolwut?[/B]

Since when was war or any form of conflict ever proportional? [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Believe it or not, there are rules, even in war. Sometimes some countries don't abide by the rules but they exist and are internationally recognized. It is a rather niave cynicism, prevalent amongst precocious teenagers (not saying you are one, just commenting generally), to think that all the laws and rules that bind us are thrown out the window during war. Which is why, rape for example, cannot be used as a method of intimidation. Or why the US didn't just throw a few nukes at the Vietnamese.

[quote name='James'][font=franklin gothic medium]Peace is hard, but war is never easy. War is an especially difficult decision, because it can (and regularly does) place much greater stresses on a situation.[/font][/quote]

War is easy. It requires no compromise, no reflection, no self-awareness. No hard choices. Just the obliteration of the enemy. Especially for a military might such as Israel, who have yet to lose a major war since its inception. Peace is harder because it requires self-examination, the ability to move forward and envision a future beyond the past. Just ask one of the most decorated Israeli soldiers, Yithzak Rabin. Oh wait, you can't, he was assassinated a decade ago by one of his own people because he wanted to make peace. He was killed after being labelled a traitor and after Benjamin Netanyahu of the Likud (a right wing party in Israel) whipped up fire and fury against Rabin's plans for peace with the Palestinians. The same Benjamin who is in the wings and which the polls suggest is favourite to win next month.

Cowards make war. Men of courage and conviction make peace.


[quote name='James'][font=franklin gothic medium]

Are you aware that Hamas's founding principles - their charter or constitution, if you will - refers to the essential need to destroy the State of Israel?

Peace can not be achieved by continuing a conflict, I agree. However, peace [i]definitely[/i] can't be achieved when one side's stated goal is to eliminate the other.[/font][/quote]

That's funny because a similar clause was contained in the PLO charter, the PLO being the government authority in the West Bank tha Abbas runs (his faction is Fatah). In fact, the PLO was a designated terrorist organisation when it entered into secret talks in the 90s. You don't begin meaningful peace talks by demanding the other side surrender first before the talks begin. That's the surest way to make sure peace never comes.

[quote name='James'][font=franklin gothic medium]You can't suggest that acts of terrorism against civilians are "a nuisance" simply because the death toll is lower than some other series of events.[/font][/quote]

I can when the death toll is an average of ONE PER YEAR. If you are going to tell me with a straight face that such incidents are a genuine threat to the security of the Israeli state, then there is really nothing I can say to prove otherwise. It'd be like talking about evolution in science to a person speaking creationism in religion. Anyone who suggests that what Hamas was doing was a genuine threat to Israel and was so serious that it required a massive invasion into Gaza killing hundreds and injuring thousands, many of whom are unarmed civilians, is not being reasonable or even rational.

[quote name='James'][font=franklin gothic medium]Put simply, Hamas clearly has no interest in real governance. It has done nothing to improve the lives of its people and instead continues down a path that only further aggrivates the living conditions of its people.[/font][/quote]

And what has Israel done since Hamas came to power in Gaza? They, along with the US, tried a coup, which failed. They then lay siege to 1.5 million people, cutting off borders. Unemployment is running at 40-50%. What is the unemployment rate where you live? Again, the facts speak for themselves. Israel and the US have never tried to engage Hamas. They have done nothing but denounce and demonise. Hamas is an ugly organisation and many of its leaders are nasty people. But if you want peace you need to look past that, you need to be able to look forward and not just backwards.

I'm not going to convince anyone here. There is too much propaganda flying around. And besides, most people don't know much the Middle East, and those who do are worse, they know just enough to confirm their own prejudices.

The reality is that it takes two to tango. There are hardliners amongst the Israelis and there are hardliners amongst the Palestinians. And the irony is that they support each other. Much like Bush and Ahmadinejad. Neither wants peace. They thrive on confrontation and conflict and it energises and re-enforces their power. Until another Rabin comes along, Israel will make no real efforts towards peace. Likewise, until another Arafat the Palestinians will remain divided and fractured. Abbas is not up to the job.

[Esther]

[quote name='Tophel']They have done nothing but denounce and demonise. Hamas is an ugly organisation and many of its leaders are nasty people. But if you want peace you need to look past that, you need to be able to look forward and not just backwards.[/quote]

[FONT="Verdana"][SIZE="1"]Well, what do you expect? Hamas is an ugly orginzation, yes -- a hideous one at that. And ALL of its leaders are nasty people. There will never be peace with Hamas, and suggesting that there can be is beyond naive.

Tell me: if you were an Israeli and a Jew, and saw that Hamas was airing this as a children's television series, would you think peace was obtainable with them?

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4&feature=related"][B][U]Video 1[/U][/B][/URL]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm8w7_P8wZ0"][B][U]Video 2[/U][/B][/URL]

Didn't think so.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[Aaryanna]

[FONT="Tahoma"][COLOR="Sienna"][quote name='Tophel']Believe it or not, there are rules, even in war. Sometimes some countries don't abide by the rules but they exist and are internationally recognized. It is a rather niave cynicism, prevalent amongst precocious teenagers (not saying you are one, just commenting generally), to think that all the laws and rules that bind us are thrown out the window during war. Which is why, rape for example, cannot be used as a method of intimidation. Or why the US didn't just throw a few nukes at the Vietnamese.[/quote]I'm perfectly aware that their are rules in war. Just as I'm also aware that part of the reason war happens is because people violate rules. Like in this case, the cease-fire treaty that Hamas deliberately ignored. :/ I'm not talking about all of the history surrounding this for the simple reason that both sides are very messed up.

A question was asked that put the blame on Israel and my answer was that in this instance it was not their fault. People are conveniently forgetting, as James already pointed out, that Hamas chooses to do these actions regardless of the consequences.

No country should be expected to just sit there and take being fired upon when the one doing so has no intention of stopping. They ignored their own cease-fire agreement after all. Making it clear that they had no intention of honoring it in the first place.

Also, the other examples you gave are a bit pointless. I read up on how Israel has dropped pamphlets and used many means to inform people of impending attacks. I find the whole thing disgusting since Hamas clearly doesn't not care if their people are used as shields to perpetrate their pathetic agenda of wiping out another country and it's citizens.

You make it sound like they are deliberately targeting civilians when that is not the case. If they were attacking without trying to keep the casualties to a minimum then I would agree, but that's not the case here.

Sure the deaths in Israel may have only been one or two a year, but Hamas's actions with building a tunnel and firing 80 rockets in answer to requests to extend the cease fire, shows them to be uninterested in peace. Making Israel stop doesn't address the issue of also making Hamas stop their actions.

And since when did those lives suddenly become meaningless since they are so few? I would hope any country would value it's citizens more. It saddens me that Hamas does not.

My point stands. I do not see Israel as being at fault in this incidence. I do not see the actions as being out of proportion. It is caused by Hamas who is using their own people by hiding behind them like cowards. :/[/COLOR][/FONT]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Tophel']Cowards make war. Men of courage and conviction make peace.[/quote]You've got a lot of generalizations in your post so I'm not going to bother to address them. But this part that I quoted is relevant so I'll address it.

By that definition, it makes the one who violated the cease-fire ([SIZE="1"]Hamas[/SIZE]) in order to live up to their charter/constitution ([SIZE="1"]which includes the goal of destroying the state of Israel[/SIZE]) the true cowards.

Israel was honoring the cease fire in spite of the rockets for a long time. If Hamas really desires peace, then they should give up that hateful goal of intending to exterminate Israel and stop firing rockets and building tunnels to attack them. :/

It's really hard to take a side that pulls stunts like that seriously.

[Raunsgaard]

I think the real question in this thread wasn't wether what Hamas intends is wrong or not, cause destroying Isreal is definitely wrong.
But the question was whether Isreal's response, their way of dealing with this, was fair and reasonable or not. And my answer to this is that it's not.
When you on purpose block the borders so that relief aid and medics and reporters can't get into the area to help the civilian lives at stake, you do not intend to keep the civilian casualties to a minimum, then you are trying to make them suffer as much as possible, and that is what Isreal does.

Anothet thing is once you read something and quotes in from foreign sites then please write the source of information, since there is so much propaganda around not everything said on the internet can be trusted.

I can start by saying my information comes from Amnesty International, most likely the best source of information if you want to know about human rights and the costs of war and other cases around the globe. Amnesty International is a worldwide peace organisation, working for human rights.

[url]http://www.amnesty.org/en/who-we-are[/url] - Who Amnesty International are.

/Raunsgaard

[Tophel]

[quote name='Esther'][FONT="Verdana"][SIZE="1"]There will never be peace with Hamas, and suggesting that there can be is beyond naive[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

That's exactly what they said about the PLO. Remember back in the 70s/80s the PLO were hijacking plans and killing civilians. In fact, the PLO are responsible for one of the worse Olympics atrocities, during the Munich games in 1972 the PLO broke into the Israeli compound and took the athletes as hostages. The German try and failed in the rescue and all the hostages were killed. I think Spielberg made a film about it. So let's not kid ourselves, the PLO were a nasty bunch of people too. But now, the US and Israel are happy to be talking to Abbas, one of the co-founders of the PLO.

Also let me repeat what I told James, the PLO had a very similar clause in its charter about not recognizing Israel's right to exist. It didn't stop Israel from holding secret talks with them that ended in the Oslo accords and Nobel Peace prizes for Arafat, Rabin and Peres (Arafat was head of the PLO, Rabin was the Israeli PM and Peres his foregin minister). It all ended in tears after Benjamin Netanyahu (a right wing politician in Israel) labelled Rabin a traitor and he was assassinated by his own people because he dared to try to make peace. Benjamin, by the way, is forecast to win the Israeli elections next month and become PM again (oh what joy!).

[quote name='Aaryanna'][FONT="Tahoma"][COLOR="Sienna"]
And since when did those lives suddenly become meaningless since they are so few?[/COLOR][/FONT][/QUOTE]

In my personal opinion there is no hierarchy of races/religions in terms of life. A Jewish life is as valuable (or cheap) as a Muslim life, or a Christian one for that matter. Similarly, a Palestinian life is not worth less because it is Palestinian. A child living in Gaza, killed by Israeli shelling is equally as much a tragedy as a child blown up by a suicide bomber in Israel. It disgusts me that some people think Muslim or Palestinian lives are some how worth less.

Hamas' rockets kills about one Israeli each year. Israel has killed over 600 in two weeks. The unarmed civilian count is somewhere between 40-50% of that number. You do the maths and tell me if that is an appropriate response.

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']
Israel was honoring the cease fire in spite of the rockets for a long time.[/QUOTE]

Honoring the ceasefire? I'm not sure what your definition for holding a truce would be, but in my mind, a truce doesn't involve continuing to hunt down and assassinate leaders of your opponent. Or to close their borders and lay siege to a city of 1.5 million. When you do these things, are you really surprise if your opponents retailates in some way? Who broke the ceasefire is not as clear cut as you may think. Both sides are to blame here.

[James]

[quote]No hard choices. Just the obliteration of the enemy. Especially for a military might such as Israel, who have yet to lose a major war since its inception. Peace is harder because it requires self-examination, the ability to move forward and envision a future beyond the past. [/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]You try being a Prime Minister or President who has to send troops to war and then tell me it's an easy decision. That's an utter fallacy.

I agree that peace - in terms of outright compromise - is more complex and difficult than engaging in a military confrontation. But it's unreasonable to suggest that war is ever "easy".

I am not suggesting that Israel has always made the correct decision or taken the best course of action with regard to the Palestineans - in fact, in this very thread I have questioned that.

However, arguing that this is all Israel's fault is unreasonable at best and downright dishonest at worst.

Peace is indeed difficult - but one thing peace requires, as you point out, is self-awareness and reflection. Those within power in the Palestinean territories must demonstrate the ability to exercise this, just as much as the Israelis.

Hamas's outright refusal to take responsibility for the welfare of its people and for its own political and military actions speaks volumes about how a peace process can not move forward if it is largely one-sided.[/font]

[quote]That's funny because a similar clause was contained in the PLO charter, the PLO being the government authority in the West Bank tha Abbas runs (his faction is Fatah). In fact, the PLO was a designated terrorist organisation when it entered into secret talks in the 90s. You don't begin meaningful peace talks by demanding the other side surrender first before the talks begin. That's the surest way to make sure peace never comes.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I did not even refer to the PLO in my comments. But within that context, there are two problems here.

The first thing I'd say is that despite the charter or intentions, there's a significant difference between the leadership of Hamas and someone like Mahmoud Abbas. The latter is at least considered a moderate leader who Israel can work with. The former has stated and demonstrated, time and time again, an unwillingness to negotiate.

So yes, I agree, you can't ask your opponent to "surrender" before a negotiation can occur. But Israel is not asking that.

They are asking that the attacks cease and that Israel is recognized as a legitimate entity. This isn't hard for Hamas to do. And there is no excuse for them not to take this step, if they are serious about a peace process.[/font]

[quote]If you are going to tell me with a straight face that such incidents are a genuine threat to the security of the Israeli state, then there is really nothing I can say to prove otherwise. It'd be like talking about evolution in science to a person speaking creationism in religion. Anyone who suggests that what Hamas was doing was a genuine threat to Israel and was so serious that it required a massive invasion into Gaza killing hundreds and injuring thousands, many of whom are unarmed civilians, is not being reasonable or even rational.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]And if you are going to tell me that Hamas was merely "annoying" Israel, then that's clearly just as irrational as you're making me out to be. It's not a good idea to throw terms like that around.

As I said before - and will continue to point out - a key aspect of terrorism is "terror".

It is important to stress that I am [i]not[/i] suggesting Israel's response is somehow 100% justifiable.

However, my key point is that Israel is not the only party at fault here. If that attitude continues to prevail, nothing will be achieved.[/font]

[quote]Unemployment is running at 40-50%. What is the unemployment rate where you live? Again, the facts speak for themselves. Israel and the US have never tried to engage Hamas. They have done nothing but denounce and demonise. Hamas is an ugly organisation and many of its leaders are nasty people. But if you want peace you need to look past that, you need to be able to look forward and not just backwards.
[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Right, but again you're blaming that unemployment on who? Israel? The United States? C'mon.

Hamas was elected to power in Gaza - it must govern. It is not doing so. This isn't about Hamas being "ugly" or being led by "nasty people" - it's about the simple fact that Hamas is systematically destroying its own people.

In that way, Hamas is a bigger enemy to the Palestineans than Israel. Even if you argue - legitimately - that Israel's military strikes are far too strong...you then have to say, okay, [i]why[/i] are they attacking?

And the answer comes back to Hamas.

So, yes, you're well within your right to say that Israel is being overzealous in its response. I accept that completely.

[i]But[/i], Hamas is the cause of the disease - not the symptom. And it must be acknowledged and treated as such.

I think everybody - including Israel, the United States and most of the Palestineans - want to look forward.

But you [i]can't[/i] have a meaningful dialogue with a group that a) doesn't recognize you in the first place, b) won't sit down to talk, c) continues attacking your citizens and d) ignores the cease fires that it even agrees to.

I am all for the idea of negotiating with one's enemies in order to find a peaceful solution.

But if an enemy won't even acknowledge you - if that enemy is only interested in destroying you and will never entertain any idea of peace, then that puts you in a very tough position.[/font]

[quote]I'm not going to convince anyone here. There is too much propaganda flying around. And besides, most people don't know much the Middle East, and those who do are worse, they know just enough to confirm their own prejudices.
[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Right. I think everyone - including yourself - should take this advice.

The more you know, the easier it is sometimes to ensure that the information fits into a particular prism. And even with the most knowledge on a subject, people still have their personal views as to how situations should be handled.[/font]

[quote]Honoring the ceasefire? I'm not sure what your definition for holding a truce would be, but in my mind, a truce doesn't involve continuing to hunt down and assassinate leaders of your opponent. Or to close their borders and lay siege to a city of 1.5 million. When you do these things, are you really surprise if your opponents retailates in some way? Who broke the ceasefire is not as clear cut as you may think. Both sides are to blame here.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]No, it's not as clear cut - but you are clearly using emotive, one-sided language here that lacks the objectivity you ask of others.

It's easy to say "close the borders and lay siege", but again, [i]why[/i] were the borders closed in the first place?

There's a difference between closing the borders to prevent and limit attacks, versus an aggressive assault (the latter is what we're seeing now and the ferocity of which is under debate - the reason behind it should be clear though).

Again the blame is constantly being laid at Israel's feet. Yes, Israel bears some part in that blame - I don't think any reasonable person would deny that. But the ability to shift responsibility from groups like Hamas, or to minimize their contributions to the conflict, is truly astounding.[/font]

[quote]The reality is that it takes two to tango. There are hardliners amongst the Israelis and there are hardliners amongst the Palestinians. And the irony is that they support each other. Much like Bush and Ahmadinejad. Neither wants peace. They thrive on confrontation and conflict and it energises and re-enforces their power. Until another Rabin comes along, Israel will make no real efforts towards peace. Likewise, until another Arafat the Palestinians will remain divided and fractured. Abbas is not up to the job.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]This is a little more even-handed.

Yes, there are hard-liners among both sides. And this is something I always stress, because I think there is a tendency by some pro-Israel commentators to suggest that all Palestineans are exactly the same.

Having said that, I don't really believe in the idea that they are equal-but-opposing forces that create an equal barrier to peace. This suggestion, to me, implies not only equal "guilt" on both sides, but it also dramatically simplifies a very complicated issue.

I mean, I would never compare Bush to Ahmedinejad for example. I guess I'd view such a comparison as being irrational, just as you might view my earlier comparison as being so. :catgirl:

In any case, at least we also agree that the Palestineans are being poorly represented right now - and have been for a very long time. Until they have a transparent government that actually prepares for statehood rather than war, this cycle will continue. And that is most unfortunate for all concerned, particularly the more than a million Gaza residents who are constantly suffering.[/font]

[quote]I think the real question in this thread wasn't wether what Hamas intends is wrong or not, cause destroying Isreal is definitely wrong.
But the question was whether Isreal's response, their way of dealing with this, was fair and reasonable or not. And my answer to this is that it's not.
[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Right, and that's a fair point to make. I think that key point is often missed when facts and statistics are thrown around without any real understanding behind them (in terms of their context and meaning especially).[/font]

[Rachmaninoff]

[QUOTE=Raunsgaard]Another thing is once you read something and quotes in from foreign sites then please write the source of information, since there is so much propaganda around not everything said on the internet can be trusted.

I can start by saying my information comes from Amnesty International, most likely the best source of information if you want to know about human rights and the costs of war and other cases around the globe. Amnesty International is a worldwide peace organisation, working for human rights.[/QUOTE]I'm well aware that you can't just blindly trust any site out there. Which is why I read around to get more than one article on a subject. You should also hold Amnesty International to the same standard and responsiblity of being as accurate as possible. Like any organization that reports on situations, they are not free from bias.

I've read up on them and they've made plenty of incorrect statements over the years and have clearly shown bias towards what they cover and what they ignore. I sincerely hope you're relying on more than them for information. Otherwise you run the risk of repeating stuff that isn't true.[quote name='Tophel']Honoring the ceasefire? I'm not sure what your definition for holding a truce would be, but in my mind, a truce doesn't involve continuing to hunt down and assassinate leaders of your opponent. Or to close their borders and lay siege to a city of 1.5 million. When you do these things, are you really surprise if your opponents retailates in some way? Who broke the ceasefire is not as clear cut as you may think. Both sides are to blame here.[/quote]James already covered this but until you stop using using emotive, one-sided language that lacks objectivity (as James put it), I can't and won't take you seriously. I've not once said Israel was blameless, I addressed the current situation and people's willingness to blindly ignore Hamas role in contributing to the problem.

Until people are willing to acknowledge why Israel is not the sole problem here, I don't see a solution. Blame runs in both directions, regardless of what's currently happening. This isn't some argument over who's made the most mistakes or who should be blamed more. That kind of thing will go in endless circles and solve nothing.

What is important is getting both sides to stop. And that includes holding Hamas responsible for accepting that Israel has the right to exist. I grow tired of all the anti-Israel sentiment when the other side is equally to blame for idiotic stunts.

[Nathan]

[FONT="Arial"]A lot has already been said on this subject so I'll skip straight to how I see it and I think this comic says it quite well.

[URL="http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/8948/comicsc8.jpg"][U]Comic[/U][/URL]

Also, please don't get the impression that I'm saying one side is without fault. This is my opinion of the current situation, not the entire conflict as a whole. That has been going on since before I was born so I don't intend to try and stuff all of that into my post here. [/FONT]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Tophel']Israel cannot win here. There is no military solution to the Palestinian issue. The only way Israel will get any peace is if it makes peace. But peace is hard. War is easy. So war is being waged.

As for the OP question about breaking international laws, etc. Well few people actually care about that. The US breaks those laws all the time. In this particular case, Israel is breaking the law, both the letter and the spirit.

Every country is allowed to defend itself but its actions must be PROPORTIONAL to the threat. In 7 or 8 years of pestering Israel with its pathetic rockets, Hamas has killed about 7 people in those attacks. In over a week of operations, Israel has slaughtered over 500 so far, and counting. The numbers don't add up.

Hamas is really not a threat to Israel or its citizens. The rockets are more a nuisance than anything else. More people die on the roads in Israel each month alone than have died in 7 years of rocket fire.

No the 'reason' for the war lies elsewhere. Israel wants to change the ground situation before Obama takes office (because Israel knows that Bush will gladly follow Israel to the gates of Hell). There is also an election in Israel coming up next month and no Israeli politician has suffered by being 'too hard' on Hamas.

What is ironic is that Bush talks about democracy in the Middle East (or he used to). They had democracy, the people elected Hamas. But the US and Israel cannot accept the Palestinian peoples' choice so they tried to stage a coup (the US and Israel supported Fatah in its attemppts to overthrow Hamas in the Gaza). The coup failed, Hamas' control strengthened. So they tried to starve Hamas by punishing the entire 1.5 million people in Gaza, i.e. closing the borders, basically like a medieval siege. That has been going on for months, actually over a year now. And now they take it a step further and wage a war. The irony? The US wants democracy but only when the people elect the government the US likes. :rolleyes:

Why was Hamas peppering Israel with these silly rockets? Precisely to draw this kind of reaction. Hamas can then get an excellent PR deal, and afterwards they can always claim victory. There is no downside for them because this is a political and not a military problem. Hamas WANTS Israel to overreact.

So why does Israel fall for this ruse? Because there is no downside for the Israeli politicians by being 'hard' on Hamas. Everybody gets what they want. Except the thousands of civilians getting caught in the crossfire.[/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]This is one of the more informed, sensible posts in this thread. Pretty good (for a newb, ha).

My problem with Israel is not retaliation to Palestine (I mean, they launched rockets) but to the proportionality and scope of the retaliatory offensive. Israel is simply trying to make a point in this military conflict, and not primarily with Hamas, but with it's own citizens.

Yes, elections are coming up quite soon and the incumbent party does not want to look soft on Hamas. This is of particular concern because the challenging party is ideologically farther to the right. In order to appear competent and forceful to its citizens (who will be voting soon), the Israeli government has rejected cease-fire agreements.

As for the actual origins of this new spat of violence -- it's not as one-sided as everyone might think. Hamas recommenced rocket launches into the south of Israel as a response to Israel assassinating members of its governmental leadership (among many other alleged failures from Israel in honoring the prior cease-fire's terms). Israel claims Hamas "started it" by smuggling in more rockets (also forbidden in the cease-fire's terms). So what this boils down to is who to believe. Personally I think both sides failed to honestly uphold their respective terms.

So let me be clear - I think Israel was justified in invading Gaza. The Israeli government exists to protect its citizens, so it's only to be expected when they respond to these rocket launches. However I think the problem developed when the invasion turned into a humanitarian crisis, with food and medical supplies becoming pitifully scarce and Palestinian civilian casualties climbing daily. The military response was not only asymmetrical and disturbingly disproportionate, it was irresponsible in that it destroyed vast swaths of Gazan civilian infrastructure. ([url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7812295.stm[/url])[/font]

[James]

[quote]This is one of the more informed, sensible posts in this thread.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I think you mean, "this was one of the few posts I agreed with in this thread". :catgirl:

I mean, there were a couple of worthwhile elements there, but calling rocket attacks "silly"? Seriously, [i]that[/i] is "disproportionate".[/font]

[quote]Yes, elections are coming up quite soon and the incumbent party does not want to look soft on Hamas. This is of particular concern because the challenging party is ideologically farther to the right. In order to appear competent and forceful to its citizens (who will be voting soon), the Israeli government has rejected cease-fire agreements.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]This is an incredibly cynical way to view such a serious issue, don't you think?

An election is looming, but are you aware that there are significant segments of the Israeli community who are opposed to any further confrontations in Gaza? Such groups would be more likely to vote against the ruling party than in support.

So far, neither side has been willing to strike an agreement over a cease-fire. I did read about a figure within Hamas (not the senior-most figure, though) who recently said that they want to negotiate the terms of a possible cease-fire, which, if accurate, would be a great step.

On the other hand, Hamas is known for not honoring cease-fires. So it's difficult to say the least.[/font]

[quote]So what this boils down to is who to believe. Personally I think both sides failed to honestly uphold their respective terms.
[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I think what it boils down to is being accurate and sober in assessing the situation.

As I have said before, it's one thing to say that Israel's reaction is an [i]overreaction[/i]. I wouldn't entirely disagree with that (although I would suggest that Israel is fighting what is now known as an "asymmetrical war", whereby Hamas deliberately hides both fighters and weaponry in civilian buildings, with the knowledge that - at least until now - these resources would remain safe to be used again in future).

I personally notice that most of the global sentiment is very much anti-Israel. In some circles, Israel has gone from being known as a refuge for the most-persecuted of the world to becoming a Nazi state itself. This is a distortion, often perpetuated by self-interested intelligencia who want to frame everything in their own politically-correct terms from a great (and comfortable) distance.

What bothers me the most about all of this is that Israel is largely held responsible not just for this recent action, but for all Palestinean suffering. They have become a catch-all for the Palestinean plight.

And yet, there's very [i]little[/i] outrage from the same circles about Hamas and its criminal negligence, corruption and disregard for its own people.

It's similar to the Iraq war, in the sense that the largest protests involved the American presidence in Iraq. And yet there were comparitively [i]no[/i] protests about Saddam Hussein and his very deliberate attempts to eliminate large sections of his own community.

It's almost like a weird kind of politically-correct racism. It's one that says "we'll worry about them when a familiar element is involved, but when it comes to their own internal affairs, they're just not worth as much".

I don't mean to suggest that your post, Retri, is specifically pushing this - but some elements of what I've read in this thread remind me of this very general attitude in the world at the moment.[/font]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR="Sienna"][FONT="Tahoma"][quote name='Chabichou'][color="#004a6f"]I would first like to point out that it was Israel that broke the ceasefire, on November 4th. On top of that, they never held up their end of the deal for the ceasefire, which was to end the 18 month long blockade on the people of Gaza. This led to rockets being fired by Hamas, which led to a response by Israel, and then more rockets from Hamas, and finally Israel's full-blown military incursion of Gaza.

I have a lot more to say on this topic, but I will save that for another post.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]I'm beginning to wonder why people don't read up on WHY things happen instead of pointing fingers. Please read this before you start on how Israel is to blame please.

[URL="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5089940.ece"][U]Six die in Israeli attack over Hamas 'tunnel under border to kidnap soldier'[/U][/URL]

Here's the relevant part of the article btw:[quote][FONT="Arial"]A five-month truce between Israel and the Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip was foundering yesterday after Israeli special forces entered the besieged territory and fought Hamas militants, leaving six Palestinian fighters dead and four Israeli soldiers wounded.

The Israeli military described the operation as a ?pinpoint? [U]raid to destroy a 250-metre tunnel that it said the hardline Palestinian movement was digging [B]under the border[/B] to try to kidnap an Israeli soldier[/U] ? as it did in the summer of 2006. [/FONT][/quote]
Perhaps they shouldn't have been digging a tunnel under the border in the first place. So now they're the bad guys for stopping that? I sincerely hope you're not serious. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Tophel]

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']What is important is getting both sides to stop. And that includes holding Hamas responsible for accepting that Israel has the right to exist. I grow tired of all the anti-Israel sentiment when the other side is equally to blame for idiotic stunts.[/QUOTE]

And I grow tired of people sympathising with Israel and blaming everything on Hamas. I have never suggested that Hamas is not at fault. But if you read this thread, until I came in and cleared up some misapprehensions, most posters were fully behind Israel's actions. Any qualifications were short and glib at best. The focus was entirely on the wrongs of Hamas.

After I made a couple of posts critical of Israel people were more open about the complex nature of this conflict. The reality, as I see it, is that there is plenty of blame to go around. Israel's hands are NOT clean. If we are tough on Hamas for its violence and indiscriminate launching of rockets, we ought to be EQUALLY tough on Israel and its siege on Gaza to punish the entire 1.5 million people, its refusal to deal in any way with Hamas or recognise its legitimacy as elected representatives of the people of Gaza.

Although you may not agree with her, here is an article I recommend people read to see the 'other side'. It is written by a Jew.

[URL="http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/shocking-cynicism-of-a-poisoned-homeland/2009/01/07/1231004100045.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1"]http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/shocking-cynicism-of-a-poisoned-homeland/2009/01/07/1231004100045.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1[/URL]

[quote name='Aaryanna'][COLOR="Sienna"][FONT="Tahoma"]I'm beginning to wonder why people don't read up on WHY things happen instead of pointing fingers....

Perhaps they shouldn't have been digging a tunnel under the border in the first place. So now they're the bad guys for stopping that? I sincerely hope you're not serious. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Firstly, you are taking the word of the Israeli military at face value, as if they are completely objective. Not a good idea when this is the military force of one of the sides. But let me engage in a discussion, let me try to be constructive, let me accept your argument. If you want people to go further and understand WHY Israel made the incursion, then I would ask you why stop there?

Have you ever considered, again ASSUMING FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, that Hamas was at fault there and they were building a tunnel to smuggle arms/kidnap Israeli soldier/whatever, why Hamas was doing this? Could it possibly be because one of the CONDITIONS of the ceasefire between Hamas and Israel was that Israel would lift the blockade on Gaza. Has Israel kept its part of the deal? No, the blockade was not lifted. Another condition was Israel release ELECTED government officials that Israel keeps behind bars. They are still there.

So it isn't really as simple as you may want to believe. Israel are not the angels you may want them to be, and Hamas may not be the demons they have been portrayed as, regardless of whatever has been said about them.

Ultimately I will again give the example of the PLO, mainly because I don't think people have absorbed what I said earlier. The PLO (or now Fatah) was an ugly nasty terrorist organisation. These people massacred the entire Israel athletics team during the Munich Olympic Games. The hijacked and blew up planes. Their leader, Yasser Arafat, was targeted by Israel for assasination several times. Year after year, Israel refused to deal with them. How do you negotiate with fanatics who want you dead? But finally, about 20 years ago, Israel changed tactics, they conducted secret talks with the PLO. These led to the Oslo accords, and Yasser Arafat, Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres signed the agreement on the Whitehouse lawn. These mortal enemies hate each other, Rabin has often said he would not be in the same room as Arafat. But on that day, he shook Arafat's hand, urged by Clinton who stood between them. Rabin hated it, but he did it anyway.

You don't make peace with your friends or people you like or respect. You make peace with your enemies, people you dislike and distrust. The idea of sidelining Hamas and demanding they surrender their weapons and recognise Israel before talking to them is the surest way to ensure this conflict continues.

So I would just ask that people keep an open mind.

[Retribution]

[quote name='James'][font=franklin gothic medium]I think you mean, "this was one of the few posts I agreed with in this thread". :catgirl:[/font][/QUOTE]
[font=Arial]More importantly, he was the first (only?) person to bring up causal reasons for this conflict outside of the immediate tense (i.e. Hamas lobbed rockets). No one aside from him ventured to ask "[i]why[/i] are people lobbing rockets" - it was simply assumed as a given precondition for Israel's action. The question never ventured past "why is Israel attacking Palestine".

[QUOTE][font=franklin gothic medium]I mean, there were a couple of worthwhile elements there, but calling rocket attacks "silly"? Seriously, [i]that[/i] is "disproportionate".[/font][/QUOTE]
Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with 100% of his statements, but I think many of his were on the money (IMO).

[QUOTE][font=franklin gothic medium]This is an incredibly cynical way to view such a serious issue, don't you think?

An election is looming, but are you aware that there are significant segments of the Israeli community who are opposed to any further confrontations in Gaza? Such groups would be more likely to vote against the ruling party than in support.

So far, neither side has been willing to strike an agreement over a cease-fire. I did read about a figure within Hamas (not the senior-most figure, though) who recently said that they want to negotiate the terms of a possible cease-fire, which, if accurate, would be a great step.

On the other hand, Hamas is known for not honoring cease-fires. So it's difficult to say the least.[/font][/QUOTE]
I'm surprised how you turned a statement about Israel's elections to a statement on Hamas honoring cease-fires. I do think the looming elections are an important consideration in thinking about what has pushed Israel to such an extent. This is, after all, the same party that invaded Lebanon and lost the PR war that was in the aftermath. That military incursion is largely regarded as a failure. Therefore it makes sense that the party is looking to mend the image of strength, especially when the vast majority of Israelis support military actions against aggressors.

[QUOTE][font=franklin gothic medium]What bothers me the most about all of this is that Israel is largely held responsible not just for this recent action, but for all Palestinean suffering. They have become a catch-all for the Palestinean plight.

And yet, there's very [i]little[/i] outrage from the same circles about Hamas and its criminal negligence, corruption and disregard for its own people.

It's similar to the Iraq war, in the sense that the largest protests involved the American presidence in Iraq. And yet there were comparitively [i]no[/i] protests about Saddam Hussein and his very deliberate attempts to eliminate large sections of his own community.

It's almost like a weird kind of politically-correct racism. It's one that says "we'll worry about them when a familiar element is involved, but when it comes to their own internal affairs, they're just not worth as much".[/font][/QUOTE]
The reason people protest these specific issues is because they relate directly with [I]Western involvement in non-Western nations[/I]. When the non-West is involved with only itself, outrage is not nearly as vocal. It's sort of a guilt complex - when your nation has the blood on its hands, citizens want to withdraw from the oppressive (or violent) dynamic. However when it involves solely the non-West, there's much less outcry because there is less direct Western guilt felt.

I think that basically stands for each nation as it relates to its own affairs - each nation generally cares about itself more than another nation.

So (pardon the rambling) the reason people protest Israel and not Hamas, despite its dubious stance towards Israel and peace in general is because Israel is a Western establishment. Hamas is thus seen as a reaction to the West. Whether this is actually the case or not is not relevant. It's just the way it works.[/font]

[Rachmaninoff]

[QUOTE=Tophel]And I grow tired of people sympathising with Israel and blaming everything on Hamas. I have never suggested that Hamas is not at fault. But if you read this thread, until I came in and cleared up some misapprehensions, most posters were fully behind Israel's actions. Any qualifications were short and glib at best. The focus was entirely on the wrongs of Hamas.

After I made a couple of posts critical of Israel people were more open about the complex nature of this conflict. The reality, as I see it, is that there is plenty of blame to go around. Israel's hands are NOT clean. If we are tough on Hamas for its violence and indiscriminate launching of rockets, we ought to be EQUALLY tough on Israel and its siege on Gaza to punish the entire 1.5 million people, its refusal to deal in any way with Hamas or recognise its legitimacy as elected representatives of the people of Gaza.[/QUOTE]I don't think anyone here is automatically putting Israel outside the circle of blame but rather questioning why the sentiment, which was in the first post no less, is to overlook Hamas' responsiblity in contributing to the conflict and push most if not all of the blame in Israel.

You keep driving down the spike of Israel isn't clear of blame and yet I wasn't saying that they were. :/ James has already covered some of this really well and I've done my share of reading up on the situation so at this point we're just arguing in circles. I've already said what I think.

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Okay. Wait.

Excuse me?

I don't think so. East Germany was a totalitarian state bent on the subjugation of everyone within Blitzkreig distance. Israel is bent on the survival of their country against all odds including extremely aggressive neighbors and a paid group of terrorists supported by Iran with the express purpose of destroying them.

Give me a break.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Mr. Blonde]

Both nations have habitually overstepped their bounds. That's all I will say regarding the matter because many people have stated my opinions already.

[quote name='Chabichou'][COLOR="#004a6f"] The only obstacle is Israel and the U.S.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I don't know if I like the way this sounds...

Obstacle?

I think Otaku's threat level has just been raised to orange.

Yikes.

[Nathan]

[FONT="Arial"][quote name='Chabichou][COLOR="#004a6f"']I think it's about high time that people recognize Israel for what it is: a terrorist state, comparable to Nazi Germany. [/COLOR][/quote]That depends on who you ask really.

[URL="http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jan/12/gaza-israelandthepalestinians"][U]Thousands of Jews rally against Hamas[/U][/URL]

I no more accept your post that Israel is like Nazi Germany than I do of the other side saying the same thing. In all honesty.. [B]shame on[I] both[/I] of you[/B] for making such broad sweeping generalizations against an entire nation/people. All I see right now are people pointing fingers instead of accepting responsiblity and trying to work towards peace. [/FONT]